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Thread: Analyzing the Mediterranean Cluster C6 from Antonio M et al. 2019

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leopoldo Leone View Post
    1) The bulk of Medieval Romans cluster with deep southern Italians, where you can see the tight clustering
    Again? I just posted you the averages that indicate otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leopoldo Leone View Post
    I interpret this as a snapshot of the process that created modern Romans as a mixing of a previous south Italian-like substrate with new comers from Tuscany, as the dialectology and historiography suggest.
    The dialect spoken in Rome in the Middle Ages was not a dialect of the "Neapolitan" or South Italian family; it was part of the central family as is modern Romanesque. The dialects spoken today in the Castelli Romani just 25 km south of Rome look a lot like that medieval speech, and for example they still say "lietto" instead of "letto" (bed) despite being surrounded by people who say "letto" or "liettə" further south.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXTCyHP6aSA

    But anyway now everyone speaks either Romanesque or Italian, so the original speech is getting lost.





    Quote Originally Posted by Leopoldo Leone View Post
    2) Southern Italians are very reasonably approximated by Rome_medieval.
    It may approximate central Italians, not southern Italians.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leopoldo Leone View Post
    3) Anyway, there is no such difference between southern Italians and central Italians, for heaven's sake: how can anybody think that there is almost double the amount of Levantine ancestry in south Italians compared to Central ones.
    According to Dodecad K12b averages, the distance between a Campanian and an Umbrian is the same as between an Umbrian and a Venetian. Would you say there is no difference between an Umbrian and a Venetian?

    Quote Originally Posted by Leopoldo Leone View Post
    4) 13% is still considerably beyond the centroid for Rome medieval, and I recall I saw models on anthrogenica with 16-20% Levant_N.
    And in fact Medieval Roman averages score less than 13%.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leopoldo Leone View Post
    5) Do you earnestly think this qualifies as an answer? As I read it, it means "actually we can't know the ethnic composition of the slave masses, but they MUST have been also heavily Syrian/Levantine-like because of G25 results for south Italians". You aren't bringing evidence or arguments, you are just postulating a theory that can't be disproven or proven because you already accept G25 as valid; for every one, it is lazy thinking (why weren't the Slaves heavily Celtic as well? Why were Levantines mostly present in south Italy? How, anyway, did slaves impact the local gene pool?, etc... these are answers you aren't even attempting to answer, you just claim "it happened somehow")
    What I read from you and others on this forum instead is a lot of mental gymnastics to not accept something that, for some strange reason, is not to your liking. Honestly, after a while I get tired of debating what really is in the public eye.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leopoldo Leone View Post
    6) Ok, for discussion sake, let's take the 13% Levant_N for deep south Italians: it can perfectly well be explained by the Anatolians, so why the insistence on another, different gene flow straight from the Levant or nearby?
    TUR_Aegean_Muğla_Değirmendere_Anc dated around 615 BC scores less Levant_PPNB than southern Italy.

    Target: Italian_Campania
    Distance: 0.0265% / 0.02654174
    53.7 TUR_Marmara_Barcin_N
    14.1 RUS_Samara_HG
    12.7 Levant_PPNB
    10.4 GEO_CHG
    9.1 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N

    Target: TUR_Aegean_Mugla_Degirmendere_Anc
    Distance: 0.0209% / 0.02089801
    66.5 TUR_Marmara_Barcin_N
    15.1 GEO_CHG
    12.5 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    4.2 Levant_PPNB
    1.7 RUS_Samara_HG

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    Quote Originally Posted by Er Monnezza View Post
    Again? I just posted you the averages that indicate otherwise.
    The average of Medieval Rome in G25 plots with Toscana. But in that case Early Medieval samples of Rome were South Italian-like and Renaissance samples were largely Northern Italian-like. North Italian-like Romans were probably recent arrivals there, so probably a selection bias in sample due to archeology so not very representative of the whole city.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Er Monnezza View Post
    Again? I just posted you the averages that indicate otherwise.



    The dialect spoken in Rome in the Middle Ages was not a dialect of the "Neapolitan" or South Italian family; it was part of the central family as is modern Romanesque. The dialects spoken today in the Castelli Romani just 25 km south of Rome look a lot like that medieval speech, and for example they still say "lietto" instead of "letto" (bed) despite being surrounded by people who say "letto" or "liettə" further south.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXTCyHP6aSA

    But anyway now everyone speaks either Romanesque or Italian, so the original speech is getting lost.







    It may approximate central Italians, not southern Italians.



    According to Dodecad K12b averages, the distance between a Campanian and an Umbrian is the same as between an Umbrian and a Venetian. Would you say there is no difference between an Umbrian and a Venetian?



    And in fact Medieval Roman averages score less than 13%.



    What I read from you and others on this forum instead is a lot of mental gymnastics to not accept something that, for some strange reason, is not to your liking. Honestly, after a while I get tired of debating what really is in the public eye.



    TUR_Aegean_Muğla_Değirmendere_Anc dated around 615 BC scores less Levant_PPNB than southern Italy.

    Target: Italian_Campania
    Distance: 0.0265% / 0.02654174
    53.7 TUR_Marmara_Barcin_N
    14.1 RUS_Samara_HG
    12.7 Levant_PPNB
    10.4 GEO_CHG
    9.1 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N

    Target: TUR_Aegean_Mugla_Degirmendere_Anc
    Distance: 0.0209% / 0.02089801
    66.5 TUR_Marmara_Barcin_N
    15.1 GEO_CHG
    12.5 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    4.2 Levant_PPNB
    1.7 RUS_Samara_HG

    1)Do you even read what I post? The dialect/language spoken in Rome during the (at least early) middle ages was part of the Neapolitan branch, unless you know more than Italian scholars on it (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanesco_dialect#History , read the sources linked by the way).
    2)Also Ihype02 pointed out the same thing I had pointed out: the medieval samples from Rome are those that cluster with southern Italians, the ones from the Renaissance are the north Italian-like
    3) In which universe do central Italians score 5% Levant_N but southern ones 13%, almost three times as much?
    4) At the beginning I said we'd better use the result of the paper as a reference, and ALL Anatolian samples score much more than 4.2 Levant_PPNB there,indeed the centroid is at roughly 20% and the lower limit is at around 15%: again, I don't think it is factually correct and likely the methodology inflates the Levant_N, but we must compare models obtained with the same methodology, and with these methods the centroid for Rome medieval/modern is still below the 13% computed by G25, also the centroid for LATE ANTIQUITY is below 13% (actually both below 10% and the latter just a tiny higher than the former): do also the late antiquity samples "approximate modern central Italians" and not southern?
    5) The only mental gymnastics I read is from you and others that cling to this theory about a significant "east med" shift (not just some Anatolian but a lot of it and a significant amount of Levantine as well) followed by a north one, for example denying that Rome medieval samples approximate south Italians (despite the fact that they do and you can see it on the PCA, and excluding the later renaissance ones), what the heck, even late antiquity samples from Rome aren't still enough Levantine-rich as modern southern Italians are according to G25 (that is compared how they result modelled in this study and how modern south Italians are on G25).

    The G25 results for Mugla_antiquity are at around 4.2% Levant_PNP but according to the study it ought to be at the very least 15%, and overall G25 shows much less Levantine than what this study says, which inflates it, BUT "southern Italian" (God knows what they are really) samples from G25 somehow are the only ones that show an excess of Levantine compared to what this study shows relatively to Rome in the medieval period (whose bulk of the samples cluster with southern Italians!) and late antiquity, and your only rebutal is that "they represent central Italians, not southern ones" (again, as if the bulk of medieval Rome samples weren't clustering with southern Italians and if it weren't clear that modern Romans are the result of the mixing of a southern Italian-like population with a northern ones, exactly as it is suggested by dialectology, historical records -contrary to your postulated Levantine migrations that left no traces- of movement of people from the north into Latium after the black plague and the very genetic samples we have).
    Don't mistake the ramblings common in certain anthrofora for what "is in the public eye".

    At this point you're wilfully dismissing all the actual evidence presented by official studies to cling to what G25 shows (always in contradiction with the general literature)

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    The average of Medieval Rome in G25 plots with Toscana. But in that case Early Medieval samples of Rome were South Italian-like and Renaissance samples were largely Northern Italian-like. North Italian-like Romans were probably recent arrivals there, so probably a selection bias in sample due to archeology so not very representative of the whole city.
    This is the problem with so much population genetics commentary: IT SHOWS NO UNDERSTANDING OF ITALIAN HISTORY.

    As Rome was the center of the Roman Empire and so not every person buried there during the Imperium was a permanent resident, Rome during the Middle Ages and Renaissance was the center of Christianity, the difference being that while there were pilgrims even in the Middle Ages, with the advent of the Renaissance and the ability to travel now much easier, even more pilgrims flocked to Rome, augmented now also by merchants, artists, artisans not only from abroad, but from the north central Italian city-states. Do you know how many Tuscan artists and artisans worked for the Popes in Rome?

    In more recent times, people from the Abruzzi moved into Lazio, as did people from neighboring Campania.

    From 1,000,000, the city of Rome in 600 A.D. was 30,000 people. In 1000 A.D. it was 20-30,000 people.

    Only two of the eleven aqueducts were open, and the inhabitants lived in a tiny bend made by the Tiber in the west of the city, less than 10% of the whole.

    At times it must have seemed, especially in the Late Middle Ages and Renaissance, as if there were more foreigners than "locals", and without isotope analysis I have no idea how you could be sure of the difference.



    That's why, and no offense intended, I frankly never pay much attention to the genetics of Lazio. Now as then people have gone there from everywhere, but mostly, of course, from neighboring regions: Toscana, yes, but also large numbers from Abruzzo and Campania (some parts of Lazio today used to be in Campania) and Umbria.

    As the Papacy became more and more a "temporal" power, with more actual territory, the Papal States became an entity onto themselves.

    Last edited by Angela; 24-09-22 at 01:20.


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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    The average of Medieval Rome in G25 plots with Toscana. But in that case Early Medieval samples of Rome were South Italian-like and Renaissance samples were largely Northern Italian-like. North Italian-like Romans were probably recent arrivals there, so probably a selection bias in sample due to archeology so not very representative of the whole city.
    The average of all Central Italian samples from AD 400 to 1650 plots with modern Central Italians, as you stated.

    Code:
    ITA_Central_AD_400-1650_(N=63),0.11394959,0.14730008,0.0089432381,-0.024189111,0.024888556,-0.010664222,0.000044777778,-0.0017654603,0.0077134444,0.021431508,0.00048969841,0.0050930635,-0.0094529524,-0.0027022063,-0.0032357302,-0.00061031746,0.0023076032,0.00029760317,0.0024002857,-0.0016436508,-0.00024165079,0.0021354127,-0.00063384127,0.0019738254,0.00013874603
    
    Distance to:    ITA_Central_AD_400-1650_(N=63)
    0.00903592    Italian_Marche
    0.00970314    Italian_Tuscany
    0.01134588    Italian_Umbria
    0.01666116    Italian_Lazio
    0.01883876    Italian_Abruzzo
    0.01960253    Italian_Emilia
    0.01977868    Italian_Molise
    But the same is also true for the Early Middle Ages samples (period from the late 5th or early 6th century to the 10th century).

    Code:
    ITA_Central_AD_500-900_(N=22),0.11294359,0.148775,0.0090509545,-0.027176045,0.026606273,-0.0123345,-0.0011643182,-0.0027061818,0.0093430909,0.024121455,0.0007455,0.0057834545,-0.010162955,-0.0028212273,-0.0044048182,-0.0016995909,0.0031411818,0.00020159091,0.0033025455,-0.0010117727,-0.00010213636,0.00092186364,-0.00020168182,-0.00053127273,-0.00033754545
    
    Distance to:    ITA_Central_AD_500-900_(N=22)
    0.01146971    Italian_Marche
    0.01247169    Italian_Tuscany
    0.01254282    Italian_Umbria
    0.01615277    Italian_Lazio
    0.01915046    Italian_Abruzzo
    Quote Originally Posted by Leopoldo Leone View Post
    1)Do you even read what I post? The dialect/language spoken in Rome during the (at least early) middle ages was part of the Neapolitan branch, unless you know more than Italian scholars on it (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanesco_dialect#History , read the sources linked by the way).
    If you read the Italian Wikipedia page, it does not tell you that it is part of the Neapolitan group, it simply tells you that it was more akin to Neapolitan and other dialects of Lazio than to modern Florentine or even Romanesque.

    The vernacular that was spoken in Rome in the Middle Ages was much closer to the other dialects of Lazio or Neapolitan than to Florentine.
    Which is the same thing I said, citing the case of the Castelli Romani dialects, which are extremely similar to the medieval Roman dialect but still part of the Central group.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leopoldo Leone View Post
    4) the centroid for Rome medieval/modern is still below the 13% computed by G25, also the centroid for LATE ANTIQUITY is below 13% (actually both below 10% and the latter just a tiny higher than the former): do also the late antiquity samples "approximate modern central Italians" and not southern?
    You are getting confused. My model gives 13% to Campanians and Sicilians, not medieval Rome. Actually Global25 shows the same things you said earlier.

    You said:

    The centroid for Levant_PPN in Italy_MedievalModern (actually Rome) is a bit under 10%, and the upper range a bit above (let's say 8% the centroid and 12% the upper limit)
    The average of all medieval samples is indeed 5.6%.

    Target: ITA_Central_AD_400-1650_(N=63)
    Distance: 0.0304% / 0.03036546
    58.1 TUR_Marmara_Barcin_N
    17.9 RUS_Samara_HG
    10.9 GEO_CHG
    5.6 Levant_PPNB
    4.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    2.9 ITA_Villabruna

    The average for Late Antiquity samples is 8.2%

    Target: ITA_Central_AD_400-500_(N=24)
    Distance: 0.0277% / 0.02773268
    56.4 TUR_Marmara_Barcin_N
    17.0 RUS_Samara_HG
    11.3 GEO_CHG
    8.2 Levant_PPNB
    5.1 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    2.0 ITA_Villabruna

    Distance to: ITA_Central_AD_400-500_(N=24)
    0.01011835 Italian_Marche
    0.01124488 Italian_Umbria
    0.01147578 Italian_Abruzzo
    0.01344580 Italian_Lazio
    0.01413269 Italian_Molise
    0.01710765 Italian_Tuscany
    0.01782361 Italian_Apulia
    0.01947895 Italian_Basilicata

    Then you also stated:

    You could expect the centroid for just Rome_medieval (hence deep southern Italians) to be 10%, with the upper limit at 14%
    This is also what Global25 shows. When I exclude all Northern European and Northern Italian samples from the overall medieval average (but leaving those plotting even further south than southern Italy), I also get about 10% Levant_PPNB. However, this is not a deep southern Italian profile, but more like a southern-shifted south-central Italian profile.

    Target: ITA_Central_(Southern_Profile)_AD_400-1650_(N=44)
    Distance: 0.0264% / 0.02642710
    55.4 TUR_Marmara_Barcin_N
    14.6 RUS_Samara_HG
    12.0 GEO_CHG
    10.6 Levant_PPNB
    6.7 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    0.7 ITA_Villabruna

    This is the only thing you did not get right, because in fact they score less.

    The averages, that is where the centroid ought to cluster, for both Campanians and Sicilians are well beyond the upper limit being 16-20%
    Quote Originally Posted by Leopoldo Leone View Post
    5) The only mental gymnastics I read is from you and others that cling to this theory about a significant "east med" shift (not just some Anatolian but a lot of it and a significant amount of Levantine as well) followed by a north one, for example denying that Rome medieval samples approximate south Italians (despite the fact that they do and you can see it on the PCA, and excluding the later renaissance ones), what the heck, even late antiquity samples from Rome aren't still enough Levantine-rich as modern southern Italians are according to G25 (that is compared how they result modelled in this study and how modern south Italians are on G25).
    Lol, who is "denying" what? I'm just telling you that the overall average is not Southern Italian-like, but it's obvious that the samples that make it up will also include Southern Italians.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leopoldo Leone View Post
    The G25 results for Mugla_antiquity are at around 4.2% Levant_PNP but according to the study it ought to be at the very least 15%
    You are confusing Mugla_Anc (that would be Iron Age) with Antiquity. Later samples from Mugla obviously show much more than 4% Levant_PPNB.

    Code:
    Target: TUR_Aegean_Mugla_Camandras_Dalagöz_Rom
    Distance: 0.0315% / 0.03150924
    54.5    TUR_Marmara_Barcin_N
    17.1    IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    13.6    GEO_CHG
    12.9    Levant_PPNB
    1.9    RUS_Samara_HG
    
    Target: TUR_Aegean_Mugla_Stratonikeia_Byz
    Distance: 0.0225% / 0.02251005
    46.8    TUR_Marmara_Barcin_N
    17.9    Levant_PPNB
    15.6    GEO_CHG
    13.1    IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    6.6    RUS_Samara_HG
    
    Target: TUR_Aegean_Mugla_Samantas_Byz
    Distance: 0.0188% / 0.01884443
    50.6    TUR_Marmara_Barcin_N
    16.3    Levant_PPNB
    14.3    IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    13.3    GEO_CHG
    5.5    RUS_Samara_HG
    Quote Originally Posted by Leopoldo Leone View Post
    BUT "southern Italian" (God knows what they are really) samples from G25 somehow are the only ones that show an excess of Levantine compared to what this study shows
    They are not aliens; I myself have similar results.

    Target: Ajeje_Brazorf_scaled
    Distance: 0.0279% / 0.02790584
    56.1 TUR_Marmara_Barcin_N
    12.0 RUS_Samara_HG
    11.3 Levant_PPNB
    10.3 GEO_CHG
    8.9 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    0.7 ITA_Villabruna
    0.7 MAR_Taforalt

    Quote Originally Posted by Leopoldo Leone View Post
    Rome in the medieval period (whose bulk of the samples cluster with southern Italians!) and late antiquity, and your only rebutal is that "they represent central Italians, not southern ones" (again, as if the bulk of medieval Rome samples weren't clustering with southern Italians

    At this point you're wilfully dismissing all the actual evidence presented by official studies to cling to what G25 shows (always in contradiction with the general literature)
    But it is not my fault that the averages, both on Global25 and Dodecad K12b, are more like central Italians than southern Italians

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    Quote Originally Posted by Er Monnezza View Post
    Again? I just posted you the averages that indicate otherwise.



    The dialect spoken in Rome in the Middle Ages was not a dialect of the "Neapolitan" or South Italian family; it was part of the central family as is modern Romanesque. The dialects spoken today in the Castelli Romani just 25 km south of Rome look a lot like that medieval speech, and for example they still say "lietto" instead of "letto" (bed) despite being surrounded by people who say "letto" or "liettə" further south.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXTCyHP6aSA

    But anyway now everyone speaks either Romanesque or Italian, so the original speech is getting lost.







    It may approximate central Italians, not southern Italians.



    According to Dodecad K12b averages, the distance between a Campanian and an Umbrian is the same as between an Umbrian and a Venetian. Would you say there is no difference between an Umbrian and a Venetian?



    And in fact Medieval Roman averages score less than 13%.



    What I read from you and others on this forum instead is a lot of mental gymnastics to not accept something that, for some strange reason, is not to your liking. Honestly, after a while I get tired of debating what really is in the public eye.



    TUR_Aegean_Muğla_Değirmendere_Anc dated around 615 BC scores less Levant_PPNB than southern Italy.

    Target: Italian_Campania
    Distance: 0.0265% / 0.02654174
    53.7 TUR_Marmara_Barcin_N
    14.1 RUS_Samara_HG
    12.7 Levant_PPNB
    10.4 GEO_CHG
    9.1 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N

    Target: TUR_Aegean_Mugla_Degirmendere_Anc
    Distance: 0.0209% / 0.02089801
    66.5 TUR_Marmara_Barcin_N
    15.1 GEO_CHG
    12.5 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    4.2 Levant_PPNB
    1.7 RUS_Samara_HG

    in this period


    Rome spoke a Latin/Siena ( tuscan mix )

    In 1860 when Italy formed ( 70 years later from map above ) there where 22 million italian ( not including the austrian ruled , Lombardy, Veneto, Friuli and Trentino ) ...of these 22 million only 3% spoke or knew Italian language , as stated by the first Italian government...................I cannot see where you draw your conclusion
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather paternal mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-PF6155

    "Fear profits man, nothing"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Why on earth would I we need to do that, when they are already divided into clusters based on haplotypes in the paper?
    60% of medieval Rome was C6, i.e. Central to South Italians according to the study.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    This is the problem with so much population genetics commentary: IT SHOWS NO UNDERSTANDING OF ITALIAN HISTORY.

    As Rome was the center of the Roman Empire and so not every person buried there during the Imperium was a permanent resident, Rome during the Middle Ages and Renaisilliterate...
    ance was the center of Christianity, the difference being that while there were pilgrims even in the Middle Ages, with the advent of the Renaissance and the ability to travel now much easier, even more pilgrims flocked to Rome, augmented now also by merchants, artists, artisans not only from abroad, but from the north central Italian city-states. Do you know how many Tuscan artists and artisans worked for the Popes in Rome?

    In more recent times, people from the Abruzzi moved into Lazio, as did people from neighboring Campania.

    From 1,000,000, the city of Rome in 600 A.D. was 30,000 people. In 1000 A.D. it was 20-30,000 people.

    Only two of the eleven aqueducts were open, and the inhabitants lived in a tiny bend made by the Tiber in the west of the city, less than 10% of the whole.

    At times it must have seemed, especially in the Late Middle Ages and Renaissance, as if there were more foreigners than "locals", and without isotope analysis I have no idea how you could be sure of the difference.



    That's why, and no offense intended, I frankly never pay much attention to the genetics of Lazio. Now as then people have gone there from everywhere, but mostly, of course, from neighboring regions: Toscana, yes, but also large numbers from Abruzzo and Campania (some parts of Lazio today used to be in Campania) and Umbria.

    As the Papacy became more and more a "temporal" power, with more actual territory, the Papal States became an entity onto themselves.

    Great insights, the population graph especially.

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    Modern Lazio academic at the northern end of the C6 cluster's centrum. Therefore, it is easy to see that Rome was repopulated mostly by people from the surrounding area from the south, with some elements from the north.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Er Monnezza View Post
    The average of all Central Italian samples from AD 400 to 1650 plots with modern Central Italians, as you stated.

    Code:
    ITA_Central_AD_400-1650_(N=63),0.11394959,0.14730008,0.0089432381,-0.024189111,0.024888556,-0.010664222,0.000044777778,-0.0017654603,0.0077134444,0.021431508,0.00048969841,0.0050930635,-0.0094529524,-0.0027022063,-0.0032357302,-0.00061031746,0.0023076032,0.00029760317,0.0024002857,-0.0016436508,-0.00024165079,0.0021354127,-0.00063384127,0.0019738254,0.00013874603
    Distance to:    ITA_Central_AD_400-1650_(N=63)
    0.00903592    Italian_Marche
    0.00970314    Italian_Tuscany
    0.01134588    Italian_Umbria
    0.01666116    Italian_Lazio
    0.01883876    Italian_Abruzzo
    0.01960253    Italian_Emilia
    0.01977868    Italian_Molise
    But the same is also true for the Early Middle Ages samples (period from the late 5th or early 6th century to the 10th century).

    Code:
    ITA_Central_AD_500-900_(N=22),0.11294359,0.148775,0.0090509545,-0.027176045,0.026606273,-0.0123345,-0.0011643182,-0.0027061818,0.0093430909,0.024121455,0.0007455,0.0057834545,-0.010162955,-0.0028212273,-0.0044048182,-0.0016995909,0.0031411818,0.00020159091,0.0033025455,-0.0010117727,-0.00010213636,0.00092186364,-0.00020168182,-0.00053127273,-0.00033754545
    Distance to:    ITA_Central_AD_500-900_(N=22)
    0.01146971    Italian_Marche
    0.01247169    Italian_Tuscany
    0.01254282    Italian_Umbria
    0.01615277    Italian_Lazio
    0.01915046    Italian_Abruzzo
    (
    How come? I saw numerous North Italian-like samples after 1300AD. And the average is nearly the same? Try removing outliers there was Germanic outlier plotting with Dutch.

  11. #61
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    Haplotype sharing groups organized by time period. C6 MA-Ren and C7 MA-Ren are Medieval to Renaissance samples are from Cancellleria. C6 Ren are Renaissance samples from Tivoli Palazzo Cianti

    I myself plot almost right on top of the centrum from the C6 Renaissance Tivoli Palazzo Cianti samples, and it clusters with Abruzzo and Molise, and Northern-shifted Apulians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post


    Haplotype sharing groups organized by time period. C6 MA-Ren and C7 MA-Ren are Medieval to Renaissance samples are from Cancellleria. C6 Ren are Renaissance samples from Tivoli Palazzo Cianti

    I myself plot almost right on top of the centrum from the C6 Renaissance Tivoli Palazzo Cianti samples, and it clusters with Abruzzo and Molise, and Northern-shifted Apulians.
    Modern Lazio looks like a mix between these people and modern Tuscans and Corsicans. Hence the re-peopling of Rome by native Italians after the Urban Graveyard effect/violent de-population of Rome at the end of the empire.

    Also, ITS5 is from Salerno.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    @Er Monnezza


    1) the wikipedia page (which just reports what is said in the sources linked) says clearly that the language spoken around Rome belonged to the southern group, hence it was NOT part of the central group, and indeed was "much" closer to Neapolitan than to dialects of the central group. Honestly, you're just using sophistry if you're going to debate such a point.
    2)Look at the graph from the study I have posted: also Turkey_IA and antiquity centroid is above 20%.
    3) The medieval samples from Rome, minus the north Italian-like individuals, clustuer around south Italians (who, I believe, are Sicilian samples), as it has been said many times.
    4)The late antiquity samples are more southern on average than medieval Rome (which remains a better proxy for south Italy),with a good chunk of the samples actually southern of south Italians, I wonder how is it possible that the average still comes out as significantly more northern than southern Italians then on G25 and dodecad12.
    5) Anyway, you must keep in mind that the important point is that G25 shows quite lower levels of Levant_N compared to the results shown in this paper, so even if G25 showed the same levels of Levant_N in Italians as shown by this paper, there would still be the discrepancy of why G25 lowers it in everybody else except Italians.
    6) Let's follow the line of argument that somehow Rome_medievalmodern and Rome_antiquity can't be used to approximate south Italians (though it is wrong): if we take it that Rome medieval on G25 shows an average of 5% Levant_N, but according to this study it is around 8%, then we can infer that if Campanians and Sicilians were to be analysed with the same methodology they'd have a centroid/average at 16%, which is roughly the centroid for imperial Rome, but since southern Italians cluster quite northern to the centroid of imperial Rome, there must have been another northern gene flow that pulled them to their position, which means that they must have started with a higher level of Levant_N than that of the average for imperial Rome: do you get why it is nonsensical?
    7)Notice that according to the data in the paper Anatolia experience and decrease in Levant_N ancestry from the BA to the byzantine period, so the suggestion that western Anatolia overall experienced and increase in levantine ancestry compared to antiquity is debunked.
    8)Though I don't believe the conclusions of the paper(s) are sound, still one of the conclusion is that Anatolia was the source of the gene flow into Italy, so there is no indication of another gene flow directly from the Levant or nearby; ok, it's true that both the imperial age samples and byzantine samples had a portion of Levantine individuals, but they were a minority, and I am not sure whether they alone are enough to explain the amount of Levantine ancestry G25 shows, and my reasonings at point 6) suggest that according to the same methodology used ( it is logically important to be consistent) the imperial Rome average still might not be enough, though it is a good question what G25 would show.
    9) Anyway, the Daunian paper and the last paper about southern Italians found no affinities of modern south Italians towards MENA people compared to ancient Mycenaean samples. so I am just arguing to show that there is still a discrepancy (again) between this paper and G25 when it comes to Italians.
    ds.PNG

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    How come? I saw numerous North Italian-like samples after 1300AD. And the average is nearly the same? Try removing outliers there was Germanic outlier plotting with Dutch.
    The samples that cluster closest to northern Italy are dated to 500 AD. However, the problem is that the samples from Rome are a clusterf*ck of different people and this is true for every period, even today.

    These are all the Central Italian samples from AD 400 to 1650 divided by cluster.

    Code:
    C1:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR130___AD_400___Coverage_78.50%,0.103579,0.150298,-0.037335,-0.063308,-0.001846,-0.021753,0.00047,-0.010846,0.003681,0.030069,0.008444,-0.001948,-0.003419,-0.002064,-0.00285,-0.009546,0.002868,0.002534,-0.000628,-0.000875,0.004118,0.001855,-0.013557,-0.001325,-0.00455
    C2:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR30___AD_500___Coverage_79.47%,0.101303,0.147252,-0.019987,-0.054264,0.013849,-0.024263,0.000235,-0.008077,0.0045,0.020228,0.000487,0.004196,-0.011447,-0.001514,-0.016558,-0.007027,0.00339,0.003041,0.005028,0.005628,0.001996,0.001237,0.003451,0.002289,-0.003233
    C2:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR32___AD_500___Coverage_53.38%,0.101303,0.155376,-0.007542,-0.044574,0.021542,-0.019243,-0.00376,-0.007154,0.002863,0.023326,-0.001137,0.003297,-0.008028,-0.006331,-0.002036,-0.004773,0.005867,-0.003294,-0.005782,0.003877,0.002121,-0.004081,0.003451,-0.011568,-0.000359
    C2:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR34___AD_500___Coverage_70.78%,0.101303,0.152329,-0.023381,-0.059432,0.007386,-0.023985,0.001175,-0.000692,-0.003272,0.018406,0.002923,0.005095,-0.002973,0.00289,-0.007465,-0.005834,0.007041,0.004054,-0.002011,0.000125,-0.006364,0.004081,0.003944,-0.003012,-0.001557
    C2:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR35___AD_500___Coverage_50.76%,0.103579,0.150298,-0.011314,-0.046189,0.013541,-0.020638,0.00047,-0.008769,0.006954,0.021868,0.00341,0.002847,0.000149,-0.002064,-0.010179,-0.001724,0.008605,0.0019,0.000754,0.000125,-0.008235,-0.00136,0.002711,-0.010965,0.002395
    C2:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR117___AD_500___Coverage_65.46%,0.104717,0.150298,-0.014708,-0.039406,0.011694,-0.015897,-0.00329,-0.01223,0.003272,0.014032,-0.00341,0.010341,-0.013082,0.003853,-0.013843,0.003845,0.004303,0.006841,0.003897,-0.014757,-0.005116,-0.000495,-0.005669,0.005543,-0.00491
    C2:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR133___AD_400___Coverage_82.28%,0.108132,0.14319,-0.023381,-0.056202,0.006463,-0.020638,0.00658,0.000462,-0.005727,0.026971,0.007307,0.005245,-0.006244,-0.001651,-0.010993,0.01127,0.021122,-0.003547,0.003645,-0.005628,-0.006613,-0.003586,-0.003204,0.005422,0.005868
    C2:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR134___AD_400___Coverage_71.86%,0.097888,0.151314,-0.028284,-0.059432,0.008309,-0.020917,-0.0047,-0.006461,-0.004295,0.019681,0.000162,0.004196,0.00446,0.003853,-0.006107,-0.004641,0.000913,-0.002534,-0.005154,0.00025,-0.004243,0.004204,-0.002958,0.001325,-0.002994
    C2:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR136___AD_400___Coverage_86.69%,0.108132,0.149283,-0.013199,-0.040698,0.011079,-0.011435,-0.001645,-0.006,-0.000818,0.018224,0.00747,0.001199,-0.003568,0.004679,-0.008007,-0.001856,0.00339,0,0.005782,-0.005753,0.000125,0.006059,0,0.000964,0.003952
    C2:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR137___AD_400___Coverage_76.65%,0.110408,0.15436,-0.018856,-0.052003,0.010463,-0.008367,0.00047,-0.008538,-0.006954,0.028793,0.005846,0.005845,-0.012785,-0.007019,-0.017372,0.003845,0.007432,0.000887,-0.000126,-0.007629,-0.009483,0.000247,-0.000616,-0.002289,-0.003113
    C2:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR54___AD_1355___Coverage_60.26%,0.113823,0.145221,-0.015839,-0.04199,0.018157,-0.013666,0.003055,-0.005538,0.008999,0.017677,-0.002761,0.004946,-0.005054,-0.000413,-0.004614,0.001856,0.004563,-0.003801,0.010182,-0.007504,0.000125,0.006677,0.001972,0.003253,-0.000718
    C2:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR56___AD_1355___Coverage_62.53%,0.106994,0.14319,-0.006788,-0.051357,0.014156,-0.016733,-0.00094,-0.008307,-0.003272,0.014032,0.001299,0.003897,-0.008176,0.00289,-0.017372,-0.000265,0.004172,-0.00266,0.00088,-0.008129,-0.000749,0,-0.005176,0.00735,0.003592
    C2:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR58___AD_1100___Coverage_81.82%,0.10927,0.150298,-0.010559,-0.046189,0.016003,-0.016455,-0.00141,-0.006461,0.001227,0.016401,-0.004872,0.001798,-0.013379,-0.006055,-0.001357,0.000796,0.004172,-0.002154,-0.001885,-0.003752,0.004367,0.005935,0.000616,0.005663,0.000718
    C2:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR64___AD_1110___Coverage_88.28%,0.105855,0.142174,-0.004148,-0.041344,0.009232,-0.02259,0.004465,-0.005769,-0.000409,0.01877,0.007145,0.008692,-0.005946,-0.006193,-0.006786,0.003182,-0.00326,0.003927,0.000754,-0.007754,0.000998,-0.001237,0.000493,0.003615,-0.002515
    C2:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR65___AD_1110___Coverage_88.58%,0.111547,0.147252,-0.012822,-0.047804,0.013233,-0.02008,0.00188,-0.004384,0.002045,0.020593,0.001137,0.004196,-0.008474,-0.001927,-0.011265,0.012994,0.016298,0.000253,-0.002891,-0.001126,-0.001248,0.00272,0.002342,0.007953,-0.002515
    C2:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR1290___AD_1348___Coverage_70.05%,0.108132,0.14319,-0.000377,-0.041667,0.017849,-0.015339,0.000705,-0.003461,0.007976,0.021868,0.006496,0.007943,-0.002825,-0.000138,-0.006107,0.00769,0.001825,-0.00228,-0.004777,-0.001876,-0.002745,0.00779,0.000986,0.010845,0.000599
    C2:ITA_Tarquinia_EMA_TAQ003___AD_841___Coverage_61.68%,0.097888,0.144205,-0.00792,-0.027778,0.013541,-0.017012,0.001175,-0.012692,0.006749,0.018224,0.002761,0.006444,-0.001189,-0.003991,-0.000407,-0.005569,0.005998,0.00266,-0.001508,-0.001251,0.004617,0.002349,-0.006039,0.007109,0.007185
    C2:ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance_RMPR973___AD_1650___Coverage_69.60%,0.111547,0.145221,-0.00264,-0.042636,0.010463,-0.018128,-0.0047,-0.002769,0.001432,0.021686,-0.005684,0.005095,-0.011596,-0.00523,-0.004614,0.005304,0.011083,0.004054,0.006662,-0.003752,0.001747,-0.001237,0.004314,0.006627,-0.004431
    C3:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR31___AD_412___Coverage_88.66%,0.137726,0.142174,0.066373,0.047158,0.048317,0.008367,0.00423,0.009923,0.008795,0.004009,0.002273,0.002098,-0.002973,-0.009221,0.016965,0.021612,0.008345,0.002787,0.007793,0.013757,0.008735,0.00779,-0.003944,0.013737,-0.004071
    C3:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR1286___AD_1430___Coverage_69.41%,0.135449,0.13405,0.058454,0.036822,0.033237,0.015618,0.00893,0.007846,-0.002045,-0.001093,-0.009256,0.005095,-0.011744,-0.013625,0.019272,0.018563,0.004955,0.000127,0.000251,0.006378,0.004367,0.010758,-0.007518,0.012652,-0.005987
    C4:ITA_Marsiliana_Imperial_MAS003___AD_465___unknown_coverage,0.091058,0.150298,0.004903,-0.050711,0.036314,-0.030957,0.00141,-0.003923,0.028633,0.030069,0.00406,0.003897,-0.008771,-0.002202,-0.007736,-0.001591,0.011995,-0.008235,-0.008045,-0.003752,-0.011105,-0.001731,0.013804,0.001928,0.010179
    C5:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR105___AD_500___Coverage_72.43%,0.122929,0.146236,0.034695,-0.004522,0.040623,-0.00251,-0.00094,0.003231,0.01309,0.016766,0.00341,0.002698,-0.003865,-0.00055,0.003257,-0.004773,-0.012126,-0.006588,-0.000503,-0.001376,0.00025,0.001237,-0.003574,-0.006627,0.004191
    C5:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR108___AD_500___Coverage_70.45%,0.12862,0.140143,0.042615,0.006783,0.043085,0.00502,0.001175,-0.008769,0.003477,0.01385,0.000325,0.002398,-0.001189,-0.008533,0.00475,0.005171,-0.000391,0.000633,0.002765,0,0.001373,0.001237,-0.004437,0.002892,0.00012
    C5:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR61___AD_1355___Coverage_79.69%,0.122929,0.144205,0.037335,0.004845,0.035391,0.000558,0.001645,0.004615,0.016157,0.020957,-0.001299,0.005245,-0.000149,0.004954,-0.004886,-0.009679,-0.006258,0.0019,0.003897,-0.001251,0.000125,-0.006554,0.006286,0.005422,-0.001078
    C5:ITA_Rome_Renaissance_RMPR1220___AD_1485___Coverage_66.47%,0.121791,0.145221,0.039598,0.01615,0.034776,0.012829,-0.00752,0.000923,0.007976,0.010752,-0.007795,0.004796,-0.011001,-0.007156,0.013165,0.001458,-0.002477,-0.002534,-0.000628,-0.002251,0.008235,-0.000618,0.004067,0.006627,-0.001796
    C5:ITA_Rome_Renaissance_RMPR1221___AD_1485___Coverage_75.67%,0.121791,0.139128,0.026021,0.018088,0.0397,-0.004462,0.001645,0.005769,0.007567,0.01877,-0.005521,0.007194,-0.006392,-0.011285,0.004479,-0.002519,-0.004042,0.007601,0.001131,0.001626,0.000998,0.007419,-0.001109,0.000964,0.002754
    C5:ITA_Rome_Renaissance_RMPR1224___AD_1485___Coverage_68.45%,0.129758,0.147252,0.04186,0.022287,0.043085,0.011713,0.00376,0.005538,0.007976,0.016583,-0.008607,0.008692,-0.010704,-0.006331,0.007736,0.005304,-0.001434,0.000633,0.001257,0.001126,0,0.000989,-0.000863,0.002651,-0.001078
    C6:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR106___AD_500___Coverage_68.57%,0.120652,0.136081,0.042992,0.03876,0.038161,0.005299,-0.000235,0.003231,0.002454,0.008383,-0.000487,0.007493,-0.009812,-0.008945,0.010993,0.00358,-0.002477,0.003041,0.014581,-0.006628,0.01148,0.008161,0.001356,0.005543,-0.005389
    C6:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR62___AD_1215___Coverage_83.66%,0.127482,0.137096,0.042992,0.027778,0.037545,0.003068,0.0047,0.007615,0.009408,0.004374,0.000974,0.00045,-0.007582,-0.011698,0.004207,0.007425,0.014733,0.004307,0.005531,-0.007379,0.009234,0.002102,-0.003821,0.007712,0.008023
    C6:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR1288___AD_1425___Coverage_70.88%,0.121791,0.13405,0.055814,0.025517,0.049855,0.006972,0.005875,0.007154,0.006136,0.000911,-0.009419,0.002098,-0.007879,0,0.008686,0.002784,0.004563,-0.00228,0.006411,0.006503,0.004367,0.007048,-0.001232,0.010483,-0.00479
    C6:ITA_Rome_Renaissance_RMPR1219___AD_1442___Coverage_81.96%,0.122929,0.142174,0.046763,0.031654,0.036314,0.009761,0.004465,0.008077,0.008795,0.002005,-0.004222,0.001349,-0.015907,0.00812,0.007329,0.002519,0.001956,0.00038,0.004902,0.000375,0.007986,0.007914,0.007518,0.007953,-0.005029
    C7:ITA_Chiusi_EMA_ETR003___AD_1073___Coverage_22.58%,0.111547,0.1635,0.008297,-0.026809,0.017542,-0.01757,0,-0.005307,0.000409,0.016583,0.005359,0.005695,-0.004757,-0.009771,0.003664,0.000928,-0.004042,0.009755,0.002011,0.003752,0.003993,-0.000618,-0.005053,-0.007953,0.007544
    C7:ITA_Chiusi_EMA_ETR007___AD_862___Coverage_46.76%,0.119514,0.148267,0.005657,-0.012274,0.029852,-0.005578,-0.004935,-0.008077,0.003681,0.010023,0.002598,0.013038,-0.017988,0.00578,-0.000679,-0.000398,0.000391,-0.00114,-0.000503,0.011756,0.004367,-0.004451,0.00493,-0.001084,0.001317
    C7:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR36___AD_500___Coverage_74.85%,0.114961,0.15436,0.003017,-0.022287,0.022773,-0.008925,0.00658,-0.003692,0.001023,0.018224,0.008931,0.001649,-0.008474,-0.009909,-0.001357,0.002784,0.002347,-0.000633,0.002263,-0.003126,0.003119,0.001484,-0.001356,0.005061,-0.000958
    C7:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR107___AD_500___Coverage_80.22%,0.119514,0.149283,-0.004525,-0.031654,0.022773,-0.02008,-0.00893,-0.004615,0.010226,0.021322,-0.000325,0.005545,-0.00223,0.00578,-0.007872,-0.007425,0.009127,-0.00038,-0.000251,0.007504,-0.003993,-0.001607,0.010106,0.00012,-0.00012
    C7:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR118___AD_500___Coverage_51.56%,0.108132,0.145221,0.003771,-0.033915,0.020619,-0.022311,-0.002115,0.003461,0.001227,0.023144,-0.004872,-0.000899,-0.017096,-0.006055,0.000814,0.009016,0.020861,-0.00152,0.006788,0.006128,-0.003369,0.004451,0.001232,0.002771,0.001557
    C7:ITA_Tarquinia_EMA_TAQ022___AD_1091___Coverage_51.91%,0.114961,0.150298,0.006411,-0.016473,0.026159,-0.020638,0.003995,-0.005077,0.006545,0.025149,0.00065,0.007943,-0.01665,-0.006055,-0.006107,0.00305,0.011604,-0.006588,0.007919,0.001251,0.004367,0.011005,-0.000986,-0.004097,0.001796
    C7:ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance_RMPR969___AD_1650___Coverage_92.48%,0.113823,0.148267,0,-0.0323,0.01231,-0.012271,-0.000705,0.000231,0.006749,0.022962,0.006496,0.004796,-0.008771,-0.012386,-0.004479,0.011933,0.013821,0.004941,-0.000251,0.004377,-0.003369,0.001607,-0.001232,0.005663,-0.001437
    C7:ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance_RMPR970___AD_1650___Coverage_49.54%,0.10927,0.14319,0.003394,-0.024225,0.023081,-0.000837,-0.00423,-0.004846,0.007772,0.015308,0.001137,0.001948,-0.007433,-0.005092,-0.00095,0.002387,0.015776,-0.006461,0.000126,0.004752,-0.005615,0.003462,0.000246,0.00494,0.001796
    C8:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR33___AD_500___Coverage_82.11%,0.124067,0.147252,0.024513,-0.012274,0.03416,-0.00251,0.00423,0.003,0.017589,0.026789,-0.003897,0,-0.012933,-0.003303,-0.005565,-0.005304,0.000652,0.00228,0.005656,-0.004252,-0.001872,0.002102,-0.005176,0.007591,-0.011855
    C8:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR109___AD_500___Coverage_42.34%,0.122929,0.147252,0.039598,-0.011628,0.039392,-0.004741,0.000235,0.009692,0.018203,0.02041,-0.002436,0.012889,-0.015758,-0.014726,0.005565,0.000796,0.012126,0.002534,0.006411,-0.004502,0.005615,0.007048,-0.003204,0.011206,-0.004431
    C8:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR110___AD_500___Coverage_54.33%,0.127482,0.141159,0.033564,-0.005814,0.033545,-0.006693,-0.000705,0.001846,0.019225,0.034078,0.003735,0.008842,-0.016799,-0.004954,0.00665,0.002254,0.009388,0.007475,0.010182,0.007629,-0.009733,0.004946,0.001232,-0.000964,0.003712
    C8:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR55___AD_1355___Coverage_80.21%,0.124067,0.137096,0.027907,-0.010982,0.033545,0.002789,-0.000705,0.001615,0.007567,0.022051,-0.000974,0.004046,-0.009812,0.001514,0.000407,0.008353,0.008866,-0.005954,0.010559,-0.001376,-0.008235,-0.001113,-0.00419,0.00723,0.001078
    C9:ITA_Chiusi_EMA_ETR010___AD_950___Coverage_57.27%,0.121791,0.152329,0.008297,-0.035853,0.017234,-0.015618,-0.00047,0.000231,0.010226,0.03262,-0.002273,0.012589,-0.014123,-0.004817,-0.002579,-0.013922,-0.007041,0.005701,0.002137,-0.006628,-0.006364,-0.006059,0.006532,0.00964,-0.002515
    C9:ITA_Chiusi_EMA_ETR013___AD_968___Coverage_55.68%,0.117238,0.150298,-0.000377,-0.037791,0.022158,-0.01506,0.00188,-0.003,0.008795,0.0277,-0.007307,0.014237,-0.013082,0.000826,-0.010315,-0.013524,-0.003912,0.000253,0.00264,-0.006503,-0.009858,-0.000866,-0.002958,0.007712,0.009221
    C9:ITA_PoggioPelliccia_EMA_POP001___AD_861___Coverage_69.71%,0.112685,0.148267,0.009051,-0.029393,0.023389,-0.016733,-0.00705,-0.003,0.013703,0.031527,0.009094,0.004946,-0.013677,0,-0.002307,-0.001591,0.001956,-0.002027,0.006285,-0.002376,-0.000998,-0.002968,-0.001972,-0.005543,0.009221
    C9:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR120___AD_500___Coverage_44.44%,0.108132,0.153345,0.012068,-0.03876,0.016926,-0.011435,-0.0047,-0.010615,0.009613,0.023144,-0.000162,0.005845,-0.005054,0.000413,-0.009908,-0.004508,-0.011995,0.007095,0.001257,-0.000375,0.000374,0.010758,0.002095,-0.003976,0.003233
    C9:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR121___AD_500___Coverage_49.71%,0.112685,0.151314,0.000754,-0.031331,0.020927,-0.007251,0.00235,-0.003692,0.005727,0.024602,-0.004872,0.01079,-0.009663,0.001239,-0.013029,-0.006232,-0.008996,0,0.007668,-0.009004,0.001622,0,0.006039,0.000482,-0.011735
    C9:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR122___AD_500___Coverage_78.75%,0.102441,0.153345,0.000377,-0.044574,0.016003,-0.019801,-0.00235,0.000231,0.004909,0.031891,0.003085,0.006894,-0.013231,0.006331,-0.0095,-0.010077,-0.007432,-0.007601,0.003897,-0.005378,-0.001248,-0.005564,0.003574,0.005784,0.000239
    C9:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR52___AD_1355___Coverage_53.43%,0.102441,0.147252,-0.001508,-0.046189,0.017542,-0.01004,-0.00799,-0.007154,0.004704,0.027882,0.008444,0.000899,-0.009068,-0.007019,-0.01045,-0.016309,-0.008084,0.004561,0.003142,-0.012881,-0.001123,0.011994,-0.00037,-0.010122,0.002275
    C9:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR53___AD_1355___Coverage_75.73%,0.111547,0.147252,-0.011691,-0.041667,0.014156,-0.022032,-0.001645,-0.011538,0.009817,0.020957,0.001461,0.001049,-0.003122,0.008533,-0.011129,-0.0118,-0.009518,-0.00266,-0.000628,-0.005628,0.007986,-0.000124,0.002095,-0.004338,-0.002395
    C9:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR57___AD_1355___Coverage_72.46%,0.112685,0.150298,-0.012822,-0.031008,0.016311,-0.015897,-0.003525,0.000923,-0.000614,0.021868,0.001461,0.003447,-0.011298,-0.001651,-0.012079,-0.00769,-0.007562,-0.001014,0.003645,-0.003001,0.003494,0.003586,-0.003821,-0.002651,0.000718
    C9:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR59___AD_905___Coverage_79.06%,0.10927,0.148267,-0.003771,-0.037468,0.01908,-0.013108,0.002585,-0.003,0.003272,0.02041,0.001299,-0.004946,-0.003122,-0.000275,-0.013708,-0.017767,-0.010952,0.004307,-0.001885,-0.006128,0.005241,0.004699,-0.009737,-0.010483,0.001796
    C9:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR60___AD_905___Coverage_87.24%,0.10927,0.145221,0.00528,-0.028101,0.009848,-0.009761,0.00799,-0.005077,0.012067,0.010023,-0.003573,-0.001948,-0.00446,0.003028,-0.002443,-0.007027,-0.015255,0.002027,-0.00088,-0.004627,-0.00836,-0.00371,-0.002835,0.004699,0.000479
    C9:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR1283___AD_855___Coverage_69.04%,0.108132,0.152329,0,-0.036822,0.028313,-0.009203,0.00141,0.006692,0.01309,0.024966,-0.000162,-0.001199,-0.014866,-0.000688,-0.012622,0.002652,0.001956,-0.007855,0.001131,-0.0005,0.006239,0.003339,-0.003574,-0.000602,-0.00012
    C9:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR1285___AD_1015___Coverage_66.72%,0.112685,0.151314,0.008297,-0.030362,0.027082,-0.011156,-0.004465,-0.004154,0.020248,0.034989,-0.005034,0.004796,-0.015312,0.003991,0,-0.01074,-0.00691,0.005448,0.009176,-0.008504,0.002496,0.010881,-0.003821,-0.004217,-0.001197
    C9:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR1287___AD_1425___Coverage_71.54%,0.118376,0.155376,0.012445,-0.028747,0.031698,-0.01004,-0.002115,-0.002308,0.007567,0.028793,0.004222,0.008243,-0.014866,-0.001651,-0.007465,-0.008221,-0.004824,0.001774,0.004399,-0.011756,0.000873,0.00272,-0.002958,0.006748,0.000479
    C9:ITA_Tarquinia_EMA_TAQ009___AD_978___Coverage_73.49%,0.108132,0.137096,0.001508,-0.037791,0.030467,-0.01506,-0.00047,0,0.011044,0.02041,0.007307,0.008542,-0.015461,0.007844,0.002036,-0.011005,-0.013299,0.006714,0.004399,-0.006003,-0.006239,0.007296,-0.004314,0.001325,-0.001676
    C9:ITA_Tarquinia_EMA_TAQ011___AD_959___Coverage_66.23%,0.10927,0.157407,0.00792,-0.029393,0.027082,-0.011156,-0.002585,0.006231,0.007567,0.015672,0.006333,0.01154,-0.012339,-0.002202,-0.000271,-0.005436,-0.012126,-0.002534,-0.002514,-0.01038,0.000873,-0.002597,0.001232,-0.00494,0.007903
    C10:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR104___AD_631___Coverage_60.60%,0.121791,0.159438,0.035826,-0.056525,0.073244,-0.022869,-0.00564,0.001154,0.047245,0.085469,-0.002598,0.014087,-0.02438,-0.01679,-0.015608,-0.002254,0.018515,-0.006081,0.004651,-0.011506,-0.004492,-0.011623,-0.013557,-0.023738,0.004071
    C11:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR63___AD_990___Coverage_88.88%,0.120652,0.147252,0.039221,0.007752,0.049548,-0.006693,0.000235,-0.002538,0.028838,0.034625,-0.003735,0.006894,-0.014123,-0.010735,0.006243,0.007027,0.01017,0.00152,-0.005279,0.011005,-0.005241,-0.001113,-0.000986,0.001687,0.006826
    C11:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR1289___AD_1425___Coverage_57.18%,0.122929,0.142174,0.043369,0.006783,0.045239,-0.001673,-0.005875,0.002077,0.030679,0.034807,0,0.009741,-0.024232,-0.012799,0.009636,0.008221,0.013038,-0.006208,0.003645,0.008004,0.005241,0.00507,-0.005053,0.001084,-0.005748
    C12:ITA_Chiusi_EMA_ETR014___AD_1006___Coverage_30.15%,0.1161,0.152329,-0.023759,-0.040375,0.014464,-0.022032,0.013161,0.005538,-0.006136,0.024602,0,0.002098,-0.009812,0.008257,-0.018729,0.003978,-0.000391,-0.000633,0.001257,0.007379,-0.012478,0.003586,0.004314,0.01458,-0.001796
    PCA


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    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Er Monnezza View Post
    The samples that cluster closest to northern Italy are dated to 500 AD. However, the problem is that the samples from Rome are a clusterf*ck of different people and this is true for every period, even today.

    These are all the Central Italian samples from AD 400 to 1650 divided by cluster.

    Code:
    C1:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR130___AD_400___Coverage_78.50%,0.103579,0.150298,-0.037335,-0.063308,-0.001846,-0.021753,0.00047,-0.010846,0.003681,0.030069,0.008444,-0.001948,-0.003419,-0.002064,-0.00285,-0.009546,0.002868,0.002534,-0.000628,-0.000875,0.004118,0.001855,-0.013557,-0.001325,-0.00455
    C2:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR30___AD_500___Coverage_79.47%,0.101303,0.147252,-0.019987,-0.054264,0.013849,-0.024263,0.000235,-0.008077,0.0045,0.020228,0.000487,0.004196,-0.011447,-0.001514,-0.016558,-0.007027,0.00339,0.003041,0.005028,0.005628,0.001996,0.001237,0.003451,0.002289,-0.003233
    C2:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR32___AD_500___Coverage_53.38%,0.101303,0.155376,-0.007542,-0.044574,0.021542,-0.019243,-0.00376,-0.007154,0.002863,0.023326,-0.001137,0.003297,-0.008028,-0.006331,-0.002036,-0.004773,0.005867,-0.003294,-0.005782,0.003877,0.002121,-0.004081,0.003451,-0.011568,-0.000359
    C2:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR34___AD_500___Coverage_70.78%,0.101303,0.152329,-0.023381,-0.059432,0.007386,-0.023985,0.001175,-0.000692,-0.003272,0.018406,0.002923,0.005095,-0.002973,0.00289,-0.007465,-0.005834,0.007041,0.004054,-0.002011,0.000125,-0.006364,0.004081,0.003944,-0.003012,-0.001557
    C2:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR35___AD_500___Coverage_50.76%,0.103579,0.150298,-0.011314,-0.046189,0.013541,-0.020638,0.00047,-0.008769,0.006954,0.021868,0.00341,0.002847,0.000149,-0.002064,-0.010179,-0.001724,0.008605,0.0019,0.000754,0.000125,-0.008235,-0.00136,0.002711,-0.010965,0.002395
    C2:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR117___AD_500___Coverage_65.46%,0.104717,0.150298,-0.014708,-0.039406,0.011694,-0.015897,-0.00329,-0.01223,0.003272,0.014032,-0.00341,0.010341,-0.013082,0.003853,-0.013843,0.003845,0.004303,0.006841,0.003897,-0.014757,-0.005116,-0.000495,-0.005669,0.005543,-0.00491
    C2:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR133___AD_400___Coverage_82.28%,0.108132,0.14319,-0.023381,-0.056202,0.006463,-0.020638,0.00658,0.000462,-0.005727,0.026971,0.007307,0.005245,-0.006244,-0.001651,-0.010993,0.01127,0.021122,-0.003547,0.003645,-0.005628,-0.006613,-0.003586,-0.003204,0.005422,0.005868
    C2:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR134___AD_400___Coverage_71.86%,0.097888,0.151314,-0.028284,-0.059432,0.008309,-0.020917,-0.0047,-0.006461,-0.004295,0.019681,0.000162,0.004196,0.00446,0.003853,-0.006107,-0.004641,0.000913,-0.002534,-0.005154,0.00025,-0.004243,0.004204,-0.002958,0.001325,-0.002994
    C2:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR136___AD_400___Coverage_86.69%,0.108132,0.149283,-0.013199,-0.040698,0.011079,-0.011435,-0.001645,-0.006,-0.000818,0.018224,0.00747,0.001199,-0.003568,0.004679,-0.008007,-0.001856,0.00339,0,0.005782,-0.005753,0.000125,0.006059,0,0.000964,0.003952
    C2:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR137___AD_400___Coverage_76.65%,0.110408,0.15436,-0.018856,-0.052003,0.010463,-0.008367,0.00047,-0.008538,-0.006954,0.028793,0.005846,0.005845,-0.012785,-0.007019,-0.017372,0.003845,0.007432,0.000887,-0.000126,-0.007629,-0.009483,0.000247,-0.000616,-0.002289,-0.003113
    C2:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR54___AD_1355___Coverage_60.26%,0.113823,0.145221,-0.015839,-0.04199,0.018157,-0.013666,0.003055,-0.005538,0.008999,0.017677,-0.002761,0.004946,-0.005054,-0.000413,-0.004614,0.001856,0.004563,-0.003801,0.010182,-0.007504,0.000125,0.006677,0.001972,0.003253,-0.000718
    C2:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR56___AD_1355___Coverage_62.53%,0.106994,0.14319,-0.006788,-0.051357,0.014156,-0.016733,-0.00094,-0.008307,-0.003272,0.014032,0.001299,0.003897,-0.008176,0.00289,-0.017372,-0.000265,0.004172,-0.00266,0.00088,-0.008129,-0.000749,0,-0.005176,0.00735,0.003592
    C2:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR58___AD_1100___Coverage_81.82%,0.10927,0.150298,-0.010559,-0.046189,0.016003,-0.016455,-0.00141,-0.006461,0.001227,0.016401,-0.004872,0.001798,-0.013379,-0.006055,-0.001357,0.000796,0.004172,-0.002154,-0.001885,-0.003752,0.004367,0.005935,0.000616,0.005663,0.000718
    C2:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR64___AD_1110___Coverage_88.28%,0.105855,0.142174,-0.004148,-0.041344,0.009232,-0.02259,0.004465,-0.005769,-0.000409,0.01877,0.007145,0.008692,-0.005946,-0.006193,-0.006786,0.003182,-0.00326,0.003927,0.000754,-0.007754,0.000998,-0.001237,0.000493,0.003615,-0.002515
    C2:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR65___AD_1110___Coverage_88.58%,0.111547,0.147252,-0.012822,-0.047804,0.013233,-0.02008,0.00188,-0.004384,0.002045,0.020593,0.001137,0.004196,-0.008474,-0.001927,-0.011265,0.012994,0.016298,0.000253,-0.002891,-0.001126,-0.001248,0.00272,0.002342,0.007953,-0.002515
    C2:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR1290___AD_1348___Coverage_70.05%,0.108132,0.14319,-0.000377,-0.041667,0.017849,-0.015339,0.000705,-0.003461,0.007976,0.021868,0.006496,0.007943,-0.002825,-0.000138,-0.006107,0.00769,0.001825,-0.00228,-0.004777,-0.001876,-0.002745,0.00779,0.000986,0.010845,0.000599
    C2:ITA_Tarquinia_EMA_TAQ003___AD_841___Coverage_61.68%,0.097888,0.144205,-0.00792,-0.027778,0.013541,-0.017012,0.001175,-0.012692,0.006749,0.018224,0.002761,0.006444,-0.001189,-0.003991,-0.000407,-0.005569,0.005998,0.00266,-0.001508,-0.001251,0.004617,0.002349,-0.006039,0.007109,0.007185
    C2:ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance_RMPR973___AD_1650___Coverage_69.60%,0.111547,0.145221,-0.00264,-0.042636,0.010463,-0.018128,-0.0047,-0.002769,0.001432,0.021686,-0.005684,0.005095,-0.011596,-0.00523,-0.004614,0.005304,0.011083,0.004054,0.006662,-0.003752,0.001747,-0.001237,0.004314,0.006627,-0.004431
    C3:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR31___AD_412___Coverage_88.66%,0.137726,0.142174,0.066373,0.047158,0.048317,0.008367,0.00423,0.009923,0.008795,0.004009,0.002273,0.002098,-0.002973,-0.009221,0.016965,0.021612,0.008345,0.002787,0.007793,0.013757,0.008735,0.00779,-0.003944,0.013737,-0.004071
    C3:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR1286___AD_1430___Coverage_69.41%,0.135449,0.13405,0.058454,0.036822,0.033237,0.015618,0.00893,0.007846,-0.002045,-0.001093,-0.009256,0.005095,-0.011744,-0.013625,0.019272,0.018563,0.004955,0.000127,0.000251,0.006378,0.004367,0.010758,-0.007518,0.012652,-0.005987
    C4:ITA_Marsiliana_Imperial_MAS003___AD_465___unknown_coverage,0.091058,0.150298,0.004903,-0.050711,0.036314,-0.030957,0.00141,-0.003923,0.028633,0.030069,0.00406,0.003897,-0.008771,-0.002202,-0.007736,-0.001591,0.011995,-0.008235,-0.008045,-0.003752,-0.011105,-0.001731,0.013804,0.001928,0.010179
    C5:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR105___AD_500___Coverage_72.43%,0.122929,0.146236,0.034695,-0.004522,0.040623,-0.00251,-0.00094,0.003231,0.01309,0.016766,0.00341,0.002698,-0.003865,-0.00055,0.003257,-0.004773,-0.012126,-0.006588,-0.000503,-0.001376,0.00025,0.001237,-0.003574,-0.006627,0.004191
    C5:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR108___AD_500___Coverage_70.45%,0.12862,0.140143,0.042615,0.006783,0.043085,0.00502,0.001175,-0.008769,0.003477,0.01385,0.000325,0.002398,-0.001189,-0.008533,0.00475,0.005171,-0.000391,0.000633,0.002765,0,0.001373,0.001237,-0.004437,0.002892,0.00012
    C5:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR61___AD_1355___Coverage_79.69%,0.122929,0.144205,0.037335,0.004845,0.035391,0.000558,0.001645,0.004615,0.016157,0.020957,-0.001299,0.005245,-0.000149,0.004954,-0.004886,-0.009679,-0.006258,0.0019,0.003897,-0.001251,0.000125,-0.006554,0.006286,0.005422,-0.001078
    C5:ITA_Rome_Renaissance_RMPR1220___AD_1485___Coverage_66.47%,0.121791,0.145221,0.039598,0.01615,0.034776,0.012829,-0.00752,0.000923,0.007976,0.010752,-0.007795,0.004796,-0.011001,-0.007156,0.013165,0.001458,-0.002477,-0.002534,-0.000628,-0.002251,0.008235,-0.000618,0.004067,0.006627,-0.001796
    C5:ITA_Rome_Renaissance_RMPR1221___AD_1485___Coverage_75.67%,0.121791,0.139128,0.026021,0.018088,0.0397,-0.004462,0.001645,0.005769,0.007567,0.01877,-0.005521,0.007194,-0.006392,-0.011285,0.004479,-0.002519,-0.004042,0.007601,0.001131,0.001626,0.000998,0.007419,-0.001109,0.000964,0.002754
    C5:ITA_Rome_Renaissance_RMPR1224___AD_1485___Coverage_68.45%,0.129758,0.147252,0.04186,0.022287,0.043085,0.011713,0.00376,0.005538,0.007976,0.016583,-0.008607,0.008692,-0.010704,-0.006331,0.007736,0.005304,-0.001434,0.000633,0.001257,0.001126,0,0.000989,-0.000863,0.002651,-0.001078
    C6:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR106___AD_500___Coverage_68.57%,0.120652,0.136081,0.042992,0.03876,0.038161,0.005299,-0.000235,0.003231,0.002454,0.008383,-0.000487,0.007493,-0.009812,-0.008945,0.010993,0.00358,-0.002477,0.003041,0.014581,-0.006628,0.01148,0.008161,0.001356,0.005543,-0.005389
    C6:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR62___AD_1215___Coverage_83.66%,0.127482,0.137096,0.042992,0.027778,0.037545,0.003068,0.0047,0.007615,0.009408,0.004374,0.000974,0.00045,-0.007582,-0.011698,0.004207,0.007425,0.014733,0.004307,0.005531,-0.007379,0.009234,0.002102,-0.003821,0.007712,0.008023
    C6:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR1288___AD_1425___Coverage_70.88%,0.121791,0.13405,0.055814,0.025517,0.049855,0.006972,0.005875,0.007154,0.006136,0.000911,-0.009419,0.002098,-0.007879,0,0.008686,0.002784,0.004563,-0.00228,0.006411,0.006503,0.004367,0.007048,-0.001232,0.010483,-0.00479
    C6:ITA_Rome_Renaissance_RMPR1219___AD_1442___Coverage_81.96%,0.122929,0.142174,0.046763,0.031654,0.036314,0.009761,0.004465,0.008077,0.008795,0.002005,-0.004222,0.001349,-0.015907,0.00812,0.007329,0.002519,0.001956,0.00038,0.004902,0.000375,0.007986,0.007914,0.007518,0.007953,-0.005029
    C7:ITA_Chiusi_EMA_ETR003___AD_1073___Coverage_22.58%,0.111547,0.1635,0.008297,-0.026809,0.017542,-0.01757,0,-0.005307,0.000409,0.016583,0.005359,0.005695,-0.004757,-0.009771,0.003664,0.000928,-0.004042,0.009755,0.002011,0.003752,0.003993,-0.000618,-0.005053,-0.007953,0.007544
    C7:ITA_Chiusi_EMA_ETR007___AD_862___Coverage_46.76%,0.119514,0.148267,0.005657,-0.012274,0.029852,-0.005578,-0.004935,-0.008077,0.003681,0.010023,0.002598,0.013038,-0.017988,0.00578,-0.000679,-0.000398,0.000391,-0.00114,-0.000503,0.011756,0.004367,-0.004451,0.00493,-0.001084,0.001317
    C7:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR36___AD_500___Coverage_74.85%,0.114961,0.15436,0.003017,-0.022287,0.022773,-0.008925,0.00658,-0.003692,0.001023,0.018224,0.008931,0.001649,-0.008474,-0.009909,-0.001357,0.002784,0.002347,-0.000633,0.002263,-0.003126,0.003119,0.001484,-0.001356,0.005061,-0.000958
    C7:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR107___AD_500___Coverage_80.22%,0.119514,0.149283,-0.004525,-0.031654,0.022773,-0.02008,-0.00893,-0.004615,0.010226,0.021322,-0.000325,0.005545,-0.00223,0.00578,-0.007872,-0.007425,0.009127,-0.00038,-0.000251,0.007504,-0.003993,-0.001607,0.010106,0.00012,-0.00012
    C7:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR118___AD_500___Coverage_51.56%,0.108132,0.145221,0.003771,-0.033915,0.020619,-0.022311,-0.002115,0.003461,0.001227,0.023144,-0.004872,-0.000899,-0.017096,-0.006055,0.000814,0.009016,0.020861,-0.00152,0.006788,0.006128,-0.003369,0.004451,0.001232,0.002771,0.001557
    C7:ITA_Tarquinia_EMA_TAQ022___AD_1091___Coverage_51.91%,0.114961,0.150298,0.006411,-0.016473,0.026159,-0.020638,0.003995,-0.005077,0.006545,0.025149,0.00065,0.007943,-0.01665,-0.006055,-0.006107,0.00305,0.011604,-0.006588,0.007919,0.001251,0.004367,0.011005,-0.000986,-0.004097,0.001796
    C7:ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance_RMPR969___AD_1650___Coverage_92.48%,0.113823,0.148267,0,-0.0323,0.01231,-0.012271,-0.000705,0.000231,0.006749,0.022962,0.006496,0.004796,-0.008771,-0.012386,-0.004479,0.011933,0.013821,0.004941,-0.000251,0.004377,-0.003369,0.001607,-0.001232,0.005663,-0.001437
    C7:ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance_RMPR970___AD_1650___Coverage_49.54%,0.10927,0.14319,0.003394,-0.024225,0.023081,-0.000837,-0.00423,-0.004846,0.007772,0.015308,0.001137,0.001948,-0.007433,-0.005092,-0.00095,0.002387,0.015776,-0.006461,0.000126,0.004752,-0.005615,0.003462,0.000246,0.00494,0.001796
    C8:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR33___AD_500___Coverage_82.11%,0.124067,0.147252,0.024513,-0.012274,0.03416,-0.00251,0.00423,0.003,0.017589,0.026789,-0.003897,0,-0.012933,-0.003303,-0.005565,-0.005304,0.000652,0.00228,0.005656,-0.004252,-0.001872,0.002102,-0.005176,0.007591,-0.011855
    C8:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR109___AD_500___Coverage_42.34%,0.122929,0.147252,0.039598,-0.011628,0.039392,-0.004741,0.000235,0.009692,0.018203,0.02041,-0.002436,0.012889,-0.015758,-0.014726,0.005565,0.000796,0.012126,0.002534,0.006411,-0.004502,0.005615,0.007048,-0.003204,0.011206,-0.004431
    C8:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR110___AD_500___Coverage_54.33%,0.127482,0.141159,0.033564,-0.005814,0.033545,-0.006693,-0.000705,0.001846,0.019225,0.034078,0.003735,0.008842,-0.016799,-0.004954,0.00665,0.002254,0.009388,0.007475,0.010182,0.007629,-0.009733,0.004946,0.001232,-0.000964,0.003712
    C8:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR55___AD_1355___Coverage_80.21%,0.124067,0.137096,0.027907,-0.010982,0.033545,0.002789,-0.000705,0.001615,0.007567,0.022051,-0.000974,0.004046,-0.009812,0.001514,0.000407,0.008353,0.008866,-0.005954,0.010559,-0.001376,-0.008235,-0.001113,-0.00419,0.00723,0.001078
    C9:ITA_Chiusi_EMA_ETR010___AD_950___Coverage_57.27%,0.121791,0.152329,0.008297,-0.035853,0.017234,-0.015618,-0.00047,0.000231,0.010226,0.03262,-0.002273,0.012589,-0.014123,-0.004817,-0.002579,-0.013922,-0.007041,0.005701,0.002137,-0.006628,-0.006364,-0.006059,0.006532,0.00964,-0.002515
    C9:ITA_Chiusi_EMA_ETR013___AD_968___Coverage_55.68%,0.117238,0.150298,-0.000377,-0.037791,0.022158,-0.01506,0.00188,-0.003,0.008795,0.0277,-0.007307,0.014237,-0.013082,0.000826,-0.010315,-0.013524,-0.003912,0.000253,0.00264,-0.006503,-0.009858,-0.000866,-0.002958,0.007712,0.009221
    C9:ITA_PoggioPelliccia_EMA_POP001___AD_861___Coverage_69.71%,0.112685,0.148267,0.009051,-0.029393,0.023389,-0.016733,-0.00705,-0.003,0.013703,0.031527,0.009094,0.004946,-0.013677,0,-0.002307,-0.001591,0.001956,-0.002027,0.006285,-0.002376,-0.000998,-0.002968,-0.001972,-0.005543,0.009221
    C9:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR120___AD_500___Coverage_44.44%,0.108132,0.153345,0.012068,-0.03876,0.016926,-0.011435,-0.0047,-0.010615,0.009613,0.023144,-0.000162,0.005845,-0.005054,0.000413,-0.009908,-0.004508,-0.011995,0.007095,0.001257,-0.000375,0.000374,0.010758,0.002095,-0.003976,0.003233
    C9:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR121___AD_500___Coverage_49.71%,0.112685,0.151314,0.000754,-0.031331,0.020927,-0.007251,0.00235,-0.003692,0.005727,0.024602,-0.004872,0.01079,-0.009663,0.001239,-0.013029,-0.006232,-0.008996,0,0.007668,-0.009004,0.001622,0,0.006039,0.000482,-0.011735
    C9:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR122___AD_500___Coverage_78.75%,0.102441,0.153345,0.000377,-0.044574,0.016003,-0.019801,-0.00235,0.000231,0.004909,0.031891,0.003085,0.006894,-0.013231,0.006331,-0.0095,-0.010077,-0.007432,-0.007601,0.003897,-0.005378,-0.001248,-0.005564,0.003574,0.005784,0.000239
    C9:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR52___AD_1355___Coverage_53.43%,0.102441,0.147252,-0.001508,-0.046189,0.017542,-0.01004,-0.00799,-0.007154,0.004704,0.027882,0.008444,0.000899,-0.009068,-0.007019,-0.01045,-0.016309,-0.008084,0.004561,0.003142,-0.012881,-0.001123,0.011994,-0.00037,-0.010122,0.002275
    C9:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR53___AD_1355___Coverage_75.73%,0.111547,0.147252,-0.011691,-0.041667,0.014156,-0.022032,-0.001645,-0.011538,0.009817,0.020957,0.001461,0.001049,-0.003122,0.008533,-0.011129,-0.0118,-0.009518,-0.00266,-0.000628,-0.005628,0.007986,-0.000124,0.002095,-0.004338,-0.002395
    C9:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR57___AD_1355___Coverage_72.46%,0.112685,0.150298,-0.012822,-0.031008,0.016311,-0.015897,-0.003525,0.000923,-0.000614,0.021868,0.001461,0.003447,-0.011298,-0.001651,-0.012079,-0.00769,-0.007562,-0.001014,0.003645,-0.003001,0.003494,0.003586,-0.003821,-0.002651,0.000718
    C9:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR59___AD_905___Coverage_79.06%,0.10927,0.148267,-0.003771,-0.037468,0.01908,-0.013108,0.002585,-0.003,0.003272,0.02041,0.001299,-0.004946,-0.003122,-0.000275,-0.013708,-0.017767,-0.010952,0.004307,-0.001885,-0.006128,0.005241,0.004699,-0.009737,-0.010483,0.001796
    C9:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR60___AD_905___Coverage_87.24%,0.10927,0.145221,0.00528,-0.028101,0.009848,-0.009761,0.00799,-0.005077,0.012067,0.010023,-0.003573,-0.001948,-0.00446,0.003028,-0.002443,-0.007027,-0.015255,0.002027,-0.00088,-0.004627,-0.00836,-0.00371,-0.002835,0.004699,0.000479
    C9:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR1283___AD_855___Coverage_69.04%,0.108132,0.152329,0,-0.036822,0.028313,-0.009203,0.00141,0.006692,0.01309,0.024966,-0.000162,-0.001199,-0.014866,-0.000688,-0.012622,0.002652,0.001956,-0.007855,0.001131,-0.0005,0.006239,0.003339,-0.003574,-0.000602,-0.00012
    C9:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR1285___AD_1015___Coverage_66.72%,0.112685,0.151314,0.008297,-0.030362,0.027082,-0.011156,-0.004465,-0.004154,0.020248,0.034989,-0.005034,0.004796,-0.015312,0.003991,0,-0.01074,-0.00691,0.005448,0.009176,-0.008504,0.002496,0.010881,-0.003821,-0.004217,-0.001197
    C9:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR1287___AD_1425___Coverage_71.54%,0.118376,0.155376,0.012445,-0.028747,0.031698,-0.01004,-0.002115,-0.002308,0.007567,0.028793,0.004222,0.008243,-0.014866,-0.001651,-0.007465,-0.008221,-0.004824,0.001774,0.004399,-0.011756,0.000873,0.00272,-0.002958,0.006748,0.000479
    C9:ITA_Tarquinia_EMA_TAQ009___AD_978___Coverage_73.49%,0.108132,0.137096,0.001508,-0.037791,0.030467,-0.01506,-0.00047,0,0.011044,0.02041,0.007307,0.008542,-0.015461,0.007844,0.002036,-0.011005,-0.013299,0.006714,0.004399,-0.006003,-0.006239,0.007296,-0.004314,0.001325,-0.001676
    C9:ITA_Tarquinia_EMA_TAQ011___AD_959___Coverage_66.23%,0.10927,0.157407,0.00792,-0.029393,0.027082,-0.011156,-0.002585,0.006231,0.007567,0.015672,0.006333,0.01154,-0.012339,-0.002202,-0.000271,-0.005436,-0.012126,-0.002534,-0.002514,-0.01038,0.000873,-0.002597,0.001232,-0.00494,0.007903
    C10:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR104___AD_631___Coverage_60.60%,0.121791,0.159438,0.035826,-0.056525,0.073244,-0.022869,-0.00564,0.001154,0.047245,0.085469,-0.002598,0.014087,-0.02438,-0.01679,-0.015608,-0.002254,0.018515,-0.006081,0.004651,-0.011506,-0.004492,-0.011623,-0.013557,-0.023738,0.004071
    C11:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR63___AD_990___Coverage_88.88%,0.120652,0.147252,0.039221,0.007752,0.049548,-0.006693,0.000235,-0.002538,0.028838,0.034625,-0.003735,0.006894,-0.014123,-0.010735,0.006243,0.007027,0.01017,0.00152,-0.005279,0.011005,-0.005241,-0.001113,-0.000986,0.001687,0.006826
    C11:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR1289___AD_1425___Coverage_57.18%,0.122929,0.142174,0.043369,0.006783,0.045239,-0.001673,-0.005875,0.002077,0.030679,0.034807,0,0.009741,-0.024232,-0.012799,0.009636,0.008221,0.013038,-0.006208,0.003645,0.008004,0.005241,0.00507,-0.005053,0.001084,-0.005748
    C12:ITA_Chiusi_EMA_ETR014___AD_1006___Coverage_30.15%,0.1161,0.152329,-0.023759,-0.040375,0.014464,-0.022032,0.013161,0.005538,-0.006136,0.024602,0,0.002098,-0.009812,0.008257,-0.018729,0.003978,-0.000391,-0.000633,0.001257,0.007379,-0.012478,0.003586,0.004314,0.01458,-0.001796
    PCA

    Some few early Medieval samples do cluster with Northern Italians. But most of Northern Italian-like medieval samples are from late Middle Ages. I will check back when I have time for all this.

  16. #66
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Can you please stop confounding the PCA with these made-up clusters? I have stated before, the paper itself has them divided by haplotype sharing, and they form as clusters.

    Dodecad K12b may not be a good calculator for analyzing prehistoric source populations that fall outside of the modern genetic continuum of West Eurasians. But Dodecad is indeed a good calculator for looking at modern populations in Southern Europe that do. Of which these Italian samples fall into.

    Also now that we see the difference between G25 and the southern Arc paper's model, we know G25 is also not a good calculator for analyzing prehistoric source populations, given the discrepancy.

    That's exactly what I see when comparing the two calculators to the paper.

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post


    All empires die from within they say. First the city decayed, then it was sacked. Same is true for Constantinople. It was a mere shadow of its former self when it was conquered by the Ottomans.

  18. #68
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    All empires die from within they say. First the city decayed, then it was sacked. Same is true for Constantinople. It was a mere shadow of its former self when it was conquered by the Ottomans.
    This is my whole problem with using samples from a cosmopolitan center of an Empire to make conclusions about source populations for modern countries. That famous "tail" into the Levant in the case of Ancient Rome disappeared because the population steadily declined, and merchants, artisans, and the slaves they used left the city.

    Then, almost from Late Antiquity, to the early Middle Ages, to the 1400s and the Renaissance, when it had a "local" population drawn from who knows where, but probably some "true" locals, but also people from neighboring areas like Campania, the Abruzzo and Toscana, and numbering only 20-30,000 people, it was inundated by pilgrims from all over Christendom, and most particularly from all over Italy, who also, given the diseases prevalent in the city, consisting not only of the plague, but malaria and typhus, promptly died and left their bones to be analyzed as well.

    This is why, as I have said over and over again, you can't just analyze the autosomes of these samples. You have to do an analysis of burial context. Some bone found by who knows who by the side of the road and then left to molder in a museum just won't do. You absolutely must do isotope analysis as well, as was done in the excellent paper on the Lombards, to weed at least some of them out, although some "transients" will slip through. You should also do a uniparental analysis.

    Most importantly, it's madness to take averages of such disparate samples. It will completely distort any analysis you're trying to do.

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Er Monnezza View Post
    The samples that cluster closest to northern Italy are dated to 500 AD. However, the problem is that the samples from Rome are a clusterf*ck of different people and this is true for every period, even today.

    These are all the Central Italian samples from AD 400 to 1650 divided by cluster.

    Code:
    C1:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR130___AD_400___Coverage_78.50%,0.103579,0.150298,-0.037335,-0.063308,-0.001846,-0.021753,0.00047,-0.010846,0.003681,0.030069,0.008444,-0.001948,-0.003419,-0.002064,-0.00285,-0.009546,0.002868,0.002534,-0.000628,-0.000875,0.004118,0.001855,-0.013557,-0.001325,-0.00455
    C2:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR30___AD_500___Coverage_79.47%,0.101303,0.147252,-0.019987,-0.054264,0.013849,-0.024263,0.000235,-0.008077,0.0045,0.020228,0.000487,0.004196,-0.011447,-0.001514,-0.016558,-0.007027,0.00339,0.003041,0.005028,0.005628,0.001996,0.001237,0.003451,0.002289,-0.003233
    C2:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR32___AD_500___Coverage_53.38%,0.101303,0.155376,-0.007542,-0.044574,0.021542,-0.019243,-0.00376,-0.007154,0.002863,0.023326,-0.001137,0.003297,-0.008028,-0.006331,-0.002036,-0.004773,0.005867,-0.003294,-0.005782,0.003877,0.002121,-0.004081,0.003451,-0.011568,-0.000359
    C2:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR34___AD_500___Coverage_70.78%,0.101303,0.152329,-0.023381,-0.059432,0.007386,-0.023985,0.001175,-0.000692,-0.003272,0.018406,0.002923,0.005095,-0.002973,0.00289,-0.007465,-0.005834,0.007041,0.004054,-0.002011,0.000125,-0.006364,0.004081,0.003944,-0.003012,-0.001557
    C2:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR35___AD_500___Coverage_50.76%,0.103579,0.150298,-0.011314,-0.046189,0.013541,-0.020638,0.00047,-0.008769,0.006954,0.021868,0.00341,0.002847,0.000149,-0.002064,-0.010179,-0.001724,0.008605,0.0019,0.000754,0.000125,-0.008235,-0.00136,0.002711,-0.010965,0.002395
    C2:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR117___AD_500___Coverage_65.46%,0.104717,0.150298,-0.014708,-0.039406,0.011694,-0.015897,-0.00329,-0.01223,0.003272,0.014032,-0.00341,0.010341,-0.013082,0.003853,-0.013843,0.003845,0.004303,0.006841,0.003897,-0.014757,-0.005116,-0.000495,-0.005669,0.005543,-0.00491
    C2:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR133___AD_400___Coverage_82.28%,0.108132,0.14319,-0.023381,-0.056202,0.006463,-0.020638,0.00658,0.000462,-0.005727,0.026971,0.007307,0.005245,-0.006244,-0.001651,-0.010993,0.01127,0.021122,-0.003547,0.003645,-0.005628,-0.006613,-0.003586,-0.003204,0.005422,0.005868
    C2:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR134___AD_400___Coverage_71.86%,0.097888,0.151314,-0.028284,-0.059432,0.008309,-0.020917,-0.0047,-0.006461,-0.004295,0.019681,0.000162,0.004196,0.00446,0.003853,-0.006107,-0.004641,0.000913,-0.002534,-0.005154,0.00025,-0.004243,0.004204,-0.002958,0.001325,-0.002994
    C2:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR136___AD_400___Coverage_86.69%,0.108132,0.149283,-0.013199,-0.040698,0.011079,-0.011435,-0.001645,-0.006,-0.000818,0.018224,0.00747,0.001199,-0.003568,0.004679,-0.008007,-0.001856,0.00339,0,0.005782,-0.005753,0.000125,0.006059,0,0.000964,0.003952
    C2:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR137___AD_400___Coverage_76.65%,0.110408,0.15436,-0.018856,-0.052003,0.010463,-0.008367,0.00047,-0.008538,-0.006954,0.028793,0.005846,0.005845,-0.012785,-0.007019,-0.017372,0.003845,0.007432,0.000887,-0.000126,-0.007629,-0.009483,0.000247,-0.000616,-0.002289,-0.003113
    C2:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR54___AD_1355___Coverage_60.26%,0.113823,0.145221,-0.015839,-0.04199,0.018157,-0.013666,0.003055,-0.005538,0.008999,0.017677,-0.002761,0.004946,-0.005054,-0.000413,-0.004614,0.001856,0.004563,-0.003801,0.010182,-0.007504,0.000125,0.006677,0.001972,0.003253,-0.000718
    C2:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR56___AD_1355___Coverage_62.53%,0.106994,0.14319,-0.006788,-0.051357,0.014156,-0.016733,-0.00094,-0.008307,-0.003272,0.014032,0.001299,0.003897,-0.008176,0.00289,-0.017372,-0.000265,0.004172,-0.00266,0.00088,-0.008129,-0.000749,0,-0.005176,0.00735,0.003592
    C2:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR58___AD_1100___Coverage_81.82%,0.10927,0.150298,-0.010559,-0.046189,0.016003,-0.016455,-0.00141,-0.006461,0.001227,0.016401,-0.004872,0.001798,-0.013379,-0.006055,-0.001357,0.000796,0.004172,-0.002154,-0.001885,-0.003752,0.004367,0.005935,0.000616,0.005663,0.000718
    C2:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR64___AD_1110___Coverage_88.28%,0.105855,0.142174,-0.004148,-0.041344,0.009232,-0.02259,0.004465,-0.005769,-0.000409,0.01877,0.007145,0.008692,-0.005946,-0.006193,-0.006786,0.003182,-0.00326,0.003927,0.000754,-0.007754,0.000998,-0.001237,0.000493,0.003615,-0.002515
    C2:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR65___AD_1110___Coverage_88.58%,0.111547,0.147252,-0.012822,-0.047804,0.013233,-0.02008,0.00188,-0.004384,0.002045,0.020593,0.001137,0.004196,-0.008474,-0.001927,-0.011265,0.012994,0.016298,0.000253,-0.002891,-0.001126,-0.001248,0.00272,0.002342,0.007953,-0.002515
    C2:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR1290___AD_1348___Coverage_70.05%,0.108132,0.14319,-0.000377,-0.041667,0.017849,-0.015339,0.000705,-0.003461,0.007976,0.021868,0.006496,0.007943,-0.002825,-0.000138,-0.006107,0.00769,0.001825,-0.00228,-0.004777,-0.001876,-0.002745,0.00779,0.000986,0.010845,0.000599
    C2:ITA_Tarquinia_EMA_TAQ003___AD_841___Coverage_61.68%,0.097888,0.144205,-0.00792,-0.027778,0.013541,-0.017012,0.001175,-0.012692,0.006749,0.018224,0.002761,0.006444,-0.001189,-0.003991,-0.000407,-0.005569,0.005998,0.00266,-0.001508,-0.001251,0.004617,0.002349,-0.006039,0.007109,0.007185
    C2:ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance_RMPR973___AD_1650___Coverage_69.60%,0.111547,0.145221,-0.00264,-0.042636,0.010463,-0.018128,-0.0047,-0.002769,0.001432,0.021686,-0.005684,0.005095,-0.011596,-0.00523,-0.004614,0.005304,0.011083,0.004054,0.006662,-0.003752,0.001747,-0.001237,0.004314,0.006627,-0.004431
    C3:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR31___AD_412___Coverage_88.66%,0.137726,0.142174,0.066373,0.047158,0.048317,0.008367,0.00423,0.009923,0.008795,0.004009,0.002273,0.002098,-0.002973,-0.009221,0.016965,0.021612,0.008345,0.002787,0.007793,0.013757,0.008735,0.00779,-0.003944,0.013737,-0.004071
    C3:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR1286___AD_1430___Coverage_69.41%,0.135449,0.13405,0.058454,0.036822,0.033237,0.015618,0.00893,0.007846,-0.002045,-0.001093,-0.009256,0.005095,-0.011744,-0.013625,0.019272,0.018563,0.004955,0.000127,0.000251,0.006378,0.004367,0.010758,-0.007518,0.012652,-0.005987
    C4:ITA_Marsiliana_Imperial_MAS003___AD_465___unknown_coverage,0.091058,0.150298,0.004903,-0.050711,0.036314,-0.030957,0.00141,-0.003923,0.028633,0.030069,0.00406,0.003897,-0.008771,-0.002202,-0.007736,-0.001591,0.011995,-0.008235,-0.008045,-0.003752,-0.011105,-0.001731,0.013804,0.001928,0.010179
    C5:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR105___AD_500___Coverage_72.43%,0.122929,0.146236,0.034695,-0.004522,0.040623,-0.00251,-0.00094,0.003231,0.01309,0.016766,0.00341,0.002698,-0.003865,-0.00055,0.003257,-0.004773,-0.012126,-0.006588,-0.000503,-0.001376,0.00025,0.001237,-0.003574,-0.006627,0.004191
    C5:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR108___AD_500___Coverage_70.45%,0.12862,0.140143,0.042615,0.006783,0.043085,0.00502,0.001175,-0.008769,0.003477,0.01385,0.000325,0.002398,-0.001189,-0.008533,0.00475,0.005171,-0.000391,0.000633,0.002765,0,0.001373,0.001237,-0.004437,0.002892,0.00012
    C5:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR61___AD_1355___Coverage_79.69%,0.122929,0.144205,0.037335,0.004845,0.035391,0.000558,0.001645,0.004615,0.016157,0.020957,-0.001299,0.005245,-0.000149,0.004954,-0.004886,-0.009679,-0.006258,0.0019,0.003897,-0.001251,0.000125,-0.006554,0.006286,0.005422,-0.001078
    C5:ITA_Rome_Renaissance_RMPR1220___AD_1485___Coverage_66.47%,0.121791,0.145221,0.039598,0.01615,0.034776,0.012829,-0.00752,0.000923,0.007976,0.010752,-0.007795,0.004796,-0.011001,-0.007156,0.013165,0.001458,-0.002477,-0.002534,-0.000628,-0.002251,0.008235,-0.000618,0.004067,0.006627,-0.001796
    C5:ITA_Rome_Renaissance_RMPR1221___AD_1485___Coverage_75.67%,0.121791,0.139128,0.026021,0.018088,0.0397,-0.004462,0.001645,0.005769,0.007567,0.01877,-0.005521,0.007194,-0.006392,-0.011285,0.004479,-0.002519,-0.004042,0.007601,0.001131,0.001626,0.000998,0.007419,-0.001109,0.000964,0.002754
    C5:ITA_Rome_Renaissance_RMPR1224___AD_1485___Coverage_68.45%,0.129758,0.147252,0.04186,0.022287,0.043085,0.011713,0.00376,0.005538,0.007976,0.016583,-0.008607,0.008692,-0.010704,-0.006331,0.007736,0.005304,-0.001434,0.000633,0.001257,0.001126,0,0.000989,-0.000863,0.002651,-0.001078
    C6:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR106___AD_500___Coverage_68.57%,0.120652,0.136081,0.042992,0.03876,0.038161,0.005299,-0.000235,0.003231,0.002454,0.008383,-0.000487,0.007493,-0.009812,-0.008945,0.010993,0.00358,-0.002477,0.003041,0.014581,-0.006628,0.01148,0.008161,0.001356,0.005543,-0.005389
    C6:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR62___AD_1215___Coverage_83.66%,0.127482,0.137096,0.042992,0.027778,0.037545,0.003068,0.0047,0.007615,0.009408,0.004374,0.000974,0.00045,-0.007582,-0.011698,0.004207,0.007425,0.014733,0.004307,0.005531,-0.007379,0.009234,0.002102,-0.003821,0.007712,0.008023
    C6:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR1288___AD_1425___Coverage_70.88%,0.121791,0.13405,0.055814,0.025517,0.049855,0.006972,0.005875,0.007154,0.006136,0.000911,-0.009419,0.002098,-0.007879,0,0.008686,0.002784,0.004563,-0.00228,0.006411,0.006503,0.004367,0.007048,-0.001232,0.010483,-0.00479
    C6:ITA_Rome_Renaissance_RMPR1219___AD_1442___Coverage_81.96%,0.122929,0.142174,0.046763,0.031654,0.036314,0.009761,0.004465,0.008077,0.008795,0.002005,-0.004222,0.001349,-0.015907,0.00812,0.007329,0.002519,0.001956,0.00038,0.004902,0.000375,0.007986,0.007914,0.007518,0.007953,-0.005029
    C7:ITA_Chiusi_EMA_ETR003___AD_1073___Coverage_22.58%,0.111547,0.1635,0.008297,-0.026809,0.017542,-0.01757,0,-0.005307,0.000409,0.016583,0.005359,0.005695,-0.004757,-0.009771,0.003664,0.000928,-0.004042,0.009755,0.002011,0.003752,0.003993,-0.000618,-0.005053,-0.007953,0.007544
    C7:ITA_Chiusi_EMA_ETR007___AD_862___Coverage_46.76%,0.119514,0.148267,0.005657,-0.012274,0.029852,-0.005578,-0.004935,-0.008077,0.003681,0.010023,0.002598,0.013038,-0.017988,0.00578,-0.000679,-0.000398,0.000391,-0.00114,-0.000503,0.011756,0.004367,-0.004451,0.00493,-0.001084,0.001317
    C7:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR36___AD_500___Coverage_74.85%,0.114961,0.15436,0.003017,-0.022287,0.022773,-0.008925,0.00658,-0.003692,0.001023,0.018224,0.008931,0.001649,-0.008474,-0.009909,-0.001357,0.002784,0.002347,-0.000633,0.002263,-0.003126,0.003119,0.001484,-0.001356,0.005061,-0.000958
    C7:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR107___AD_500___Coverage_80.22%,0.119514,0.149283,-0.004525,-0.031654,0.022773,-0.02008,-0.00893,-0.004615,0.010226,0.021322,-0.000325,0.005545,-0.00223,0.00578,-0.007872,-0.007425,0.009127,-0.00038,-0.000251,0.007504,-0.003993,-0.001607,0.010106,0.00012,-0.00012
    C7:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR118___AD_500___Coverage_51.56%,0.108132,0.145221,0.003771,-0.033915,0.020619,-0.022311,-0.002115,0.003461,0.001227,0.023144,-0.004872,-0.000899,-0.017096,-0.006055,0.000814,0.009016,0.020861,-0.00152,0.006788,0.006128,-0.003369,0.004451,0.001232,0.002771,0.001557
    C7:ITA_Tarquinia_EMA_TAQ022___AD_1091___Coverage_51.91%,0.114961,0.150298,0.006411,-0.016473,0.026159,-0.020638,0.003995,-0.005077,0.006545,0.025149,0.00065,0.007943,-0.01665,-0.006055,-0.006107,0.00305,0.011604,-0.006588,0.007919,0.001251,0.004367,0.011005,-0.000986,-0.004097,0.001796
    C7:ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance_RMPR969___AD_1650___Coverage_92.48%,0.113823,0.148267,0,-0.0323,0.01231,-0.012271,-0.000705,0.000231,0.006749,0.022962,0.006496,0.004796,-0.008771,-0.012386,-0.004479,0.011933,0.013821,0.004941,-0.000251,0.004377,-0.003369,0.001607,-0.001232,0.005663,-0.001437
    C7:ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance_RMPR970___AD_1650___Coverage_49.54%,0.10927,0.14319,0.003394,-0.024225,0.023081,-0.000837,-0.00423,-0.004846,0.007772,0.015308,0.001137,0.001948,-0.007433,-0.005092,-0.00095,0.002387,0.015776,-0.006461,0.000126,0.004752,-0.005615,0.003462,0.000246,0.00494,0.001796
    C8:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR33___AD_500___Coverage_82.11%,0.124067,0.147252,0.024513,-0.012274,0.03416,-0.00251,0.00423,0.003,0.017589,0.026789,-0.003897,0,-0.012933,-0.003303,-0.005565,-0.005304,0.000652,0.00228,0.005656,-0.004252,-0.001872,0.002102,-0.005176,0.007591,-0.011855
    C8:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR109___AD_500___Coverage_42.34%,0.122929,0.147252,0.039598,-0.011628,0.039392,-0.004741,0.000235,0.009692,0.018203,0.02041,-0.002436,0.012889,-0.015758,-0.014726,0.005565,0.000796,0.012126,0.002534,0.006411,-0.004502,0.005615,0.007048,-0.003204,0.011206,-0.004431
    C8:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR110___AD_500___Coverage_54.33%,0.127482,0.141159,0.033564,-0.005814,0.033545,-0.006693,-0.000705,0.001846,0.019225,0.034078,0.003735,0.008842,-0.016799,-0.004954,0.00665,0.002254,0.009388,0.007475,0.010182,0.007629,-0.009733,0.004946,0.001232,-0.000964,0.003712
    C8:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR55___AD_1355___Coverage_80.21%,0.124067,0.137096,0.027907,-0.010982,0.033545,0.002789,-0.000705,0.001615,0.007567,0.022051,-0.000974,0.004046,-0.009812,0.001514,0.000407,0.008353,0.008866,-0.005954,0.010559,-0.001376,-0.008235,-0.001113,-0.00419,0.00723,0.001078
    C9:ITA_Chiusi_EMA_ETR010___AD_950___Coverage_57.27%,0.121791,0.152329,0.008297,-0.035853,0.017234,-0.015618,-0.00047,0.000231,0.010226,0.03262,-0.002273,0.012589,-0.014123,-0.004817,-0.002579,-0.013922,-0.007041,0.005701,0.002137,-0.006628,-0.006364,-0.006059,0.006532,0.00964,-0.002515
    C9:ITA_Chiusi_EMA_ETR013___AD_968___Coverage_55.68%,0.117238,0.150298,-0.000377,-0.037791,0.022158,-0.01506,0.00188,-0.003,0.008795,0.0277,-0.007307,0.014237,-0.013082,0.000826,-0.010315,-0.013524,-0.003912,0.000253,0.00264,-0.006503,-0.009858,-0.000866,-0.002958,0.007712,0.009221
    C9:ITA_PoggioPelliccia_EMA_POP001___AD_861___Coverage_69.71%,0.112685,0.148267,0.009051,-0.029393,0.023389,-0.016733,-0.00705,-0.003,0.013703,0.031527,0.009094,0.004946,-0.013677,0,-0.002307,-0.001591,0.001956,-0.002027,0.006285,-0.002376,-0.000998,-0.002968,-0.001972,-0.005543,0.009221
    C9:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR120___AD_500___Coverage_44.44%,0.108132,0.153345,0.012068,-0.03876,0.016926,-0.011435,-0.0047,-0.010615,0.009613,0.023144,-0.000162,0.005845,-0.005054,0.000413,-0.009908,-0.004508,-0.011995,0.007095,0.001257,-0.000375,0.000374,0.010758,0.002095,-0.003976,0.003233
    C9:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR121___AD_500___Coverage_49.71%,0.112685,0.151314,0.000754,-0.031331,0.020927,-0.007251,0.00235,-0.003692,0.005727,0.024602,-0.004872,0.01079,-0.009663,0.001239,-0.013029,-0.006232,-0.008996,0,0.007668,-0.009004,0.001622,0,0.006039,0.000482,-0.011735
    C9:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR122___AD_500___Coverage_78.75%,0.102441,0.153345,0.000377,-0.044574,0.016003,-0.019801,-0.00235,0.000231,0.004909,0.031891,0.003085,0.006894,-0.013231,0.006331,-0.0095,-0.010077,-0.007432,-0.007601,0.003897,-0.005378,-0.001248,-0.005564,0.003574,0.005784,0.000239
    C9:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR52___AD_1355___Coverage_53.43%,0.102441,0.147252,-0.001508,-0.046189,0.017542,-0.01004,-0.00799,-0.007154,0.004704,0.027882,0.008444,0.000899,-0.009068,-0.007019,-0.01045,-0.016309,-0.008084,0.004561,0.003142,-0.012881,-0.001123,0.011994,-0.00037,-0.010122,0.002275
    C9:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR53___AD_1355___Coverage_75.73%,0.111547,0.147252,-0.011691,-0.041667,0.014156,-0.022032,-0.001645,-0.011538,0.009817,0.020957,0.001461,0.001049,-0.003122,0.008533,-0.011129,-0.0118,-0.009518,-0.00266,-0.000628,-0.005628,0.007986,-0.000124,0.002095,-0.004338,-0.002395
    C9:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR57___AD_1355___Coverage_72.46%,0.112685,0.150298,-0.012822,-0.031008,0.016311,-0.015897,-0.003525,0.000923,-0.000614,0.021868,0.001461,0.003447,-0.011298,-0.001651,-0.012079,-0.00769,-0.007562,-0.001014,0.003645,-0.003001,0.003494,0.003586,-0.003821,-0.002651,0.000718
    C9:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR59___AD_905___Coverage_79.06%,0.10927,0.148267,-0.003771,-0.037468,0.01908,-0.013108,0.002585,-0.003,0.003272,0.02041,0.001299,-0.004946,-0.003122,-0.000275,-0.013708,-0.017767,-0.010952,0.004307,-0.001885,-0.006128,0.005241,0.004699,-0.009737,-0.010483,0.001796
    C9:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR60___AD_905___Coverage_87.24%,0.10927,0.145221,0.00528,-0.028101,0.009848,-0.009761,0.00799,-0.005077,0.012067,0.010023,-0.003573,-0.001948,-0.00446,0.003028,-0.002443,-0.007027,-0.015255,0.002027,-0.00088,-0.004627,-0.00836,-0.00371,-0.002835,0.004699,0.000479
    C9:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR1283___AD_855___Coverage_69.04%,0.108132,0.152329,0,-0.036822,0.028313,-0.009203,0.00141,0.006692,0.01309,0.024966,-0.000162,-0.001199,-0.014866,-0.000688,-0.012622,0.002652,0.001956,-0.007855,0.001131,-0.0005,0.006239,0.003339,-0.003574,-0.000602,-0.00012
    C9:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR1285___AD_1015___Coverage_66.72%,0.112685,0.151314,0.008297,-0.030362,0.027082,-0.011156,-0.004465,-0.004154,0.020248,0.034989,-0.005034,0.004796,-0.015312,0.003991,0,-0.01074,-0.00691,0.005448,0.009176,-0.008504,0.002496,0.010881,-0.003821,-0.004217,-0.001197
    C9:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR1287___AD_1425___Coverage_71.54%,0.118376,0.155376,0.012445,-0.028747,0.031698,-0.01004,-0.002115,-0.002308,0.007567,0.028793,0.004222,0.008243,-0.014866,-0.001651,-0.007465,-0.008221,-0.004824,0.001774,0.004399,-0.011756,0.000873,0.00272,-0.002958,0.006748,0.000479
    C9:ITA_Tarquinia_EMA_TAQ009___AD_978___Coverage_73.49%,0.108132,0.137096,0.001508,-0.037791,0.030467,-0.01506,-0.00047,0,0.011044,0.02041,0.007307,0.008542,-0.015461,0.007844,0.002036,-0.011005,-0.013299,0.006714,0.004399,-0.006003,-0.006239,0.007296,-0.004314,0.001325,-0.001676
    C9:ITA_Tarquinia_EMA_TAQ011___AD_959___Coverage_66.23%,0.10927,0.157407,0.00792,-0.029393,0.027082,-0.011156,-0.002585,0.006231,0.007567,0.015672,0.006333,0.01154,-0.012339,-0.002202,-0.000271,-0.005436,-0.012126,-0.002534,-0.002514,-0.01038,0.000873,-0.002597,0.001232,-0.00494,0.007903
    C10:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR104___AD_631___Coverage_60.60%,0.121791,0.159438,0.035826,-0.056525,0.073244,-0.022869,-0.00564,0.001154,0.047245,0.085469,-0.002598,0.014087,-0.02438,-0.01679,-0.015608,-0.002254,0.018515,-0.006081,0.004651,-0.011506,-0.004492,-0.011623,-0.013557,-0.023738,0.004071
    C11:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR63___AD_990___Coverage_88.88%,0.120652,0.147252,0.039221,0.007752,0.049548,-0.006693,0.000235,-0.002538,0.028838,0.034625,-0.003735,0.006894,-0.014123,-0.010735,0.006243,0.007027,0.01017,0.00152,-0.005279,0.011005,-0.005241,-0.001113,-0.000986,0.001687,0.006826
    C11:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR1289___AD_1425___Coverage_57.18%,0.122929,0.142174,0.043369,0.006783,0.045239,-0.001673,-0.005875,0.002077,0.030679,0.034807,0,0.009741,-0.024232,-0.012799,0.009636,0.008221,0.013038,-0.006208,0.003645,0.008004,0.005241,0.00507,-0.005053,0.001084,-0.005748
    C12:ITA_Chiusi_EMA_ETR014___AD_1006___Coverage_30.15%,0.1161,0.152329,-0.023759,-0.040375,0.014464,-0.022032,0.013161,0.005538,-0.006136,0.024602,0,0.002098,-0.009812,0.008257,-0.018729,0.003978,-0.000391,-0.000633,0.001257,0.007379,-0.012478,0.003586,0.004314,0.01458,-0.001796
    PCA

    None of these samples land in Toscana or Emilia, despite your previous calculations. Instead, as the paper stated, the C6 samples cover the area from CENTRAL Italy to Southern Italy. Of course, there are also samples from more northern parts of Italy.

    In addition, just looking at your PCA and assuming its accuracy for the moment, how could you possibly think using averages is at all helpful? It's useless and leads to inaccurate conclusions. I might even say it's misinformation.

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leopoldo Leone View Post
    @Er Monnezza


    1) the wikipedia page (which just reports what is said in the sources linked) says clearly that the language spoken around Rome belonged to the southern group, hence it was NOT part of the central group, and indeed was "much" closer to Neapolitan than to dialects of the central group. Honestly, you're just using sophistry if you're going to debate such a point.
    2)Look at the graph from the study I have posted: also Turkey_IA and antiquity centroid is above 20%.
    3) The medieval samples from Rome, minus the north Italian-like individuals, clustuer around south Italians (who, I believe, are Sicilian samples), as it has been said many times.
    4)The late antiquity samples are more southern on average than medieval Rome (which remains a better proxy for south Italy),with a good chunk of the samples actually southern of south Italians, I wonder how is it possible that the average still comes out as significantly more northern than southern Italians then on G25 and dodecad12.
    5) Anyway, you must keep in mind that the important point is that G25 shows quite lower levels of Levant_N compared to the results shown in this paper, so even if G25 showed the same levels of Levant_N in Italians as shown by this paper, there would still be the discrepancy of why G25 lowers it in everybody else except Italians.
    6) Let's follow the line of argument that somehow Rome_medievalmodern and Rome_antiquity can't be used to approximate south Italians (though it is wrong): if we take it that Rome medieval on G25 shows an average of 5% Levant_N, but according to this study it is around 8%, then we can infer that if Campanians and Sicilians were to be analysed with the same methodology they'd have a centroid/average at 16%, which is roughly the centroid for imperial Rome, but since southern Italians cluster quite northern to the centroid of imperial Rome, there must have been another northern gene flow that pulled them to their position, which means that they must have started with a higher level of Levant_N than that of the average for imperial Rome: do you get why it is nonsensical?
    7)Notice that according to the data in the paper Anatolia experience and decrease in Levant_N ancestry from the BA to the byzantine period, so the suggestion that western Anatolia overall experienced and increase in levantine ancestry compared to antiquity is debunked.
    8)Though I don't believe the conclusions of the paper(s) are sound, still one of the conclusion is that Anatolia was the source of the gene flow into Italy, so there is no indication of another gene flow directly from the Levant or nearby; ok, it's true that both the imperial age samples and byzantine samples had a portion of Levantine individuals, but they were a minority, and I am not sure whether they alone are enough to explain the amount of Levantine ancestry G25 shows, and my reasonings at point 6) suggest that according to the same methodology used ( it is logically important to be consistent) the imperial Rome average still might not be enough, though it is a good question what G25 would show.
    9) Anyway, the Daunian paper and the last paper about southern Italians found no affinities of modern south Italians towards MENA people compared to ancient Mycenaean samples. so I am just arguing to show that there is still a discrepancy (again) between this paper and G25 when it comes to Italians.
    ds.PNG
    If, after looking at Figure S20, people don't get why samples from port cities are problematic for historical analysis, as was also shown by the paper on Carthaginian port cities, and why burial contexts are important, then they just choose not to understand because of their own bizarre agendas.

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    I have an off-topic question, why does Piedmont plot further south than Liguria? I was a little surprised to see the PCA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Poxy View Post
    I have an off-topic question, why does Piedmont plot further south than Liguria? I was a little surprised to see the PCA.
    It is only a single Ligurian sample, so it is not really representative of the population.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    It is only a single Ligurian sample, so it is not really representative of the population.
    I didn't know there was only one Ligurian sample. Thanks for the reply.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Poxy View Post
    I have an off-topic question, why does Piedmont plot further south than Liguria? I was a little surprised to see the PCA.
    The one sample labeled Liguria is from Genova. The so-called Piedmont sample is actually from an area in the Apennines "recently" incorporated by Piemonte but actually mountain Ligure in origin, as can be seen by the fact that they speak a Ligurian dialect, the towns all have the name "Ligure" in them, and the road used by these villages led to Genova.

    Autosomally, I think they're a bit closer to eastern Liguria than western Liguria, although not by much, and they border Piacenza and far western Emilia as well.

    So far as I know there "is" no official Emilia sample, so they've basically "guessed".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    The one sample labeled Liguria is from Genova. The so-called Piedmont sample is actually from an area in the Apennines "recently" incorporated by Piemonte but actually mountain Ligure in origin, as can be seen by the fact that they speak a Ligurian dialect, the towns all have the name "Ligure" in them, and the road used by these villages led to Genova.

    Autosomally, I think they're a bit closer to eastern Liguria than western Liguria, although not by much, and they border Piacenza and far western Emilia as well.

    So far as I know there "is" no official Emilia sample, so they've basically "guessed".
    So the sample named Piedmont is actually the same as the one from Liguria, right? I didn't know that the sample came from the tip of the Apennine Mountains. Thank you for the very interesting information. I wonder what other regions of Piedmont are like.

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