Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 5 of 8 FirstFirst ... 34567 ... LastLast
Results 101 to 125 of 176

Thread: Analyzing the Mediterranean Cluster C6 from Antonio M et al. 2019

  1. #101
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    10-06-22
    Posts
    18


    Ethnic group
    Korean
    Country: South Korea



    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post

    The sample named Piedmont on G25 is most likely from Val Borbera. It's Piedmont but being it's area linguistically transitional from Ligurian language to Piedmontese is not really representative of Piedmont. The problem was created by Raveane and Capelli (or Cappelli?) who only released a small part of the samples from northern Italy (and did not release samples from Emilia, Piedmont and just one from Liguria). To solve the problem Davidski a few days later uploaded to the G25 the only set of samples that had previously been released from Piedmont, namely the Val Borbera set.

    Based on the private results I have seen, there are indeed 100 per cent Piedmontese (from eastern Piedmont, usually) who have results like that sample from Val Borbera, and others who go further north genetically and come closer to results more typical of the linguistically Italian northern Alps.

    In northern Italy everywhere there is genetically the dichotomy between the Alps and the Po Valley (with the Apennines possibly in between, depending on the area). With those in the Po Valley being underrepresented both in studies and consequently in amateur calculators.
    I would like to know the exact definition of Po Valley. Is it okay if I ask a few questions I have?

    HGDP samples of the Bergamo are the Po Valley? or the Alps?
    The metropolitan area of Milan, which accounts for a third of northern Italy's population, is the Po Valley?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post

    Geneticists, and particularly Italian ones, have never shown much capacity for accuracy, unfortunately. I don't think we will have much more accurate samples in the future than we do today. More samples but not necessarily more accurate.
    That's so sad

  2. #102
    Moderator Pax Augusta's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-06-14
    Location
    Ara Pacis
    Posts
    1,808


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: Italy



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Poxy View Post
    I would like to know the exact definition of Po Valley. Is it okay if I ask a few questions I have?

    HGDP samples of the Bergamo are the Po Valley? or the Alps?
    The metropolitan area of Milan, which accounts for a third of northern Italy's population, is the Po Valley?
    HGDP samples from Bergamo, according to CEPH coordinates, are most likely Prealps and Alps, not Po Valley.

    Their CEPH coordinates pointed, if I remember correctly, to the Seriana Valley

    https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Val_Seriana




    The exact definition of Po Valley? it's simple, it's the vast plains of northern Italy. You'd have to ask Stuvanè who lives there, but yes, the metropolitan area of Milan is Po Valley, one of the northernmost areas (so much so that from Milan you can easily see the Alps north of Milan). The population of the metropolitan area of Milan may be a third of northern Italy's population, but it is also one of the most demographically modified areas in the whole of Italy. I don't know how many can be those who have all local ancestors there. Then there would be a piece of plain in north-eastern Italy that even though it is in complete continuity with the Po Valley is not considered as such because it is not part of the hydrographic basin of the Po River, I believe.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Po_Valley
    Last edited by Pax Augusta; 27-09-22 at 01:38.

  3. #103
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    10-06-22
    Posts
    18


    Ethnic group
    Korean
    Country: South Korea



    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    HGDP samples of the Bergamo, according to CEPH coordinates, are most likely Prealps and Alps, not Po Valley.

    Their CEPH coordinates pointed, if I remember correctly, to the Seriana Valley



    The exact definition of Po Valley? it's simple, it's the vast plains of northern Italy. You'd have to ask Stuvanè who lives there, but yes, the metropolitan area of Milan is Po Valley, one of the northernmost areas (so much so that from Milan you can easily see the Alps north of Milan). The population of the metropolitan area of Milan may have a third of northern Italy's population, but it is also one of the most demographically modified areas in the whole of Italy. I don't know how many can be those who have all local ancestors there. Then there would be a piece of plain in north-eastern Italy that even though it is in complete continuity with the Po Valley is not considered as such because it is not part of the hydrographic basin of the Po River, I believe.

    Thank you for your prompt reply.

  4. #104
    Banned
    Join Date
    17-01-18
    Posts
    177


    Country: Italy



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Leopoldo Leone View Post
    1) The link I posted unambiguously stated that "the medieval Roman dialect belonged to the southern family of Italian dialects", you say that "it has very southern features, but I think it is a stretch to ascribe it directly to the southern group": it is again the old problem of "dialect continuum"
    And mine stated something else. But I agree that the classification of Italian dialects/languages is often ambiguous. The main feature used by linguists to separate the languages of the Neapolitan group from the Central and Sicilian ones is the presence of schwa in words, such as in "liettə" (bed).



    Quote Originally Posted by Leopoldo Leone View Post
    but let us focus on the important point: the dialect spoken in Latium was " closer to Neapolitan than to Tuscan" but afterwards underwent a "tuscanization" caused by a large numbers of immigrants from Tuscany (or speakers of Tuscan dialects)

    [...]

    I guess it isn't the contentious point, but I get that your insistence that the medieval Roman dialect was a member of the central group depends on the implicit suggestion, opposed to mine, that medieval Romans while not being as northern as modern ones were still more northern than modern Campanians/Sicilians, whereas it is the suggestion implicit in my claim; well, whatever was the category the medieval Roman dialct belonged to, genetically the inhabitants looked Sicilian-like.
    The point is that in this case the language has nothing to do with autosomal DNA, they are two things disconnected from each other; and the shift from Medieval Romanesque to modern Romanesque from the 15th century onwards does not imply a mass migration from Tuscany to Rome.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leopoldo Leone View Post
    3)"A genetic probe into the ancient and medieval history of southern Europe and west Asia", figure 3, A (which I had already posted), you can clearly see that Levant_N decreases from the BA to the Byzantine period.
    The models I posted come from supplementary file number 5 of the Southern Arc paper itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leopoldo Leone View Post
    The genetic samples from the medieval and renaissance period show a tight cluster of individuals with Sicilians and a sizeable chunk of them that form a cloud from Sicily to north Italy (and a bit more northern), so the natural inference is that the modern Romans formed as a mix of north Italians and southern Italians
    For the sake of clarity, once I exclude the samples plotting north of Tuscany and south of Calabria/Campania, I obtain the following averages.

    Code:
    ITA_Chiusi_MA_(N=5),0.117238,0.1533446,-0.000377,-0.0306204,0.02025,-0.0151716,0.0019272,-0.002123,0.003395,0.0223056,-0.0003246,0.0095314,-0.0119524,0.000055,-0.0057276,-0.0045876,-0.002999,0.0027872,0.0015084,0.0019512,-0.004068,-0.0016816,0.001553,0.004579,0.0027542
    ITA_Gavorrano_MA_(N=1),0.112685,0.148267,0.009051,-0.029393,0.023389,-0.016733,-0.00705,-0.003,0.013703,0.031527,0.009094,0.004946,-0.013677,0,-0.002307,-0.001591,0.001956,-0.002027,0.006285,-0.002376,-0.000998,-0.002968,-0.001972,-0.005543,0.009221
    ITA_Manciano_Late_Antiquity_(N=1),0.091058,0.150298,0.004903,-0.050711,0.036314,-0.030957,0.00141,-0.003923,0.028633,0.030069,0.00406,0.003897,-0.008771,-0.002202,-0.007736,-0.001591,0.011995,-0.008235,-0.008045,-0.003752,-0.011105,-0.001731,0.013804,0.001928,0.010179
    ITA_Montelanico_MA_(N=10),0.1092702,0.1466425,-0.0074668,-0.0413117,0.0147718,-0.0160362,0.0004465,-0.0056305,0.0037836,0.0188613,0.001104,0.002203,-0.0072099,-0.0009082,-0.0091203,-0.004203,-0.0025426,0.0002786,0.0010434,-0.006053,0.0010731,0.003054,-0.0014421,0.0004939,0.0001435
    ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_(N=10),0.1083596,0.1512123,-0.0031301,-0.0373388,0.0177877,-0.0157016,-0.001739,-0.0053075,0.0044996,0.0219777,0.0008118,0.0047508,-0.0080277,-0.0002064,-0.0074917,-0.002095,0.0026077,0.0002408,0.0026273,-0.0020759,-0.00146,0.0009645,0.0022183,-0.0005784,-0.0006706
    ITA_Rome_MA_(N=4),0.11183125,0.15055225,0.00509125,-0.0343995,0.0262355,-0.0114345,-0.00111625,-0.00080775,0.01222025,0.027654,0.0013805,0.00494575,-0.01196725,0.0003785,-0.0065485,-0.00215475,-0.00198825,-0.00072825,0.00248225,-0.005659,0.00171575,0.0061825,-0.00234175,0.0031935,-0.00005975
    ITA_Tarquinia_MA_(N=4),0.10756275,0.1472515,0.00197975,-0.02785875,0.02431225,-0.0159665,0.00052875,-0.0028845,0.00797625,0.01986375,0.00426275,0.00861725,-0.01140975,-0.001101,-0.00118725,-0.00474,-0.00195575,0.000063,0.002074,-0.00409575,0.0009045,0.00451325,-0.00252675,-0.00015075,0.003802
    ITA_Tivoli_Early_Modern_(N=3),0.11154667,0.14555933,0.00025133333,-0.033053667,0.015284667,-0.010412,-0.0032116667,-0.0024613333,0.0053176667,0.019985333,0.00064966667,0.0039463333,-0.0092666667,-0.0075693333,-0.0033476667,0.0065413333,0.01356,0.00084466667,0.002179,0.0017923333,-0.0024123333,0.0012773333,0.0011093333,0.0057433333,-0.0013573333
    These are the individual samples.

    Code:
    ITA_Chiusi_MA:ETR003___AD_1073___Coverage_22.58%,0.111547,0.1635,0.008297,-0.026809,0.017542,-0.01757,0,-0.005307,0.000409,0.016583,0.005359,0.005695,-0.004757,-0.009771,0.003664,0.000928,-0.004042,0.009755,0.002011,0.003752,0.003993,-0.000618,-0.005053,-0.007953,0.007544
    ITA_Chiusi_MA:ETR007___AD_862___Coverage_46.76%,0.119514,0.148267,0.005657,-0.012274,0.029852,-0.005578,-0.004935,-0.008077,0.003681,0.010023,0.002598,0.013038,-0.017988,0.00578,-0.000679,-0.000398,0.000391,-0.00114,-0.000503,0.011756,0.004367,-0.004451,0.00493,-0.001084,0.001317
    ITA_Chiusi_MA:ETR010___AD_950___Coverage_57.27%,0.121791,0.152329,0.008297,-0.035853,0.017234,-0.015618,-0.00047,0.000231,0.010226,0.03262,-0.002273,0.012589,-0.014123,-0.004817,-0.002579,-0.013922,-0.007041,0.005701,0.002137,-0.006628,-0.006364,-0.006059,0.006532,0.00964,-0.002515
    ITA_Chiusi_MA:ETR013___AD_968___Coverage_55.68%,0.117238,0.150298,-0.000377,-0.037791,0.022158,-0.01506,0.00188,-0.003,0.008795,0.0277,-0.007307,0.014237,-0.013082,0.000826,-0.010315,-0.013524,-0.003912,0.000253,0.00264,-0.006503,-0.009858,-0.000866,-0.002958,0.007712,0.009221
    ITA_Chiusi_MA:ETR014___AD_1006___Coverage_30.15%,0.1161,0.152329,-0.023759,-0.040375,0.014464,-0.022032,0.013161,0.005538,-0.006136,0.024602,0,0.002098,-0.009812,0.008257,-0.018729,0.003978,-0.000391,-0.000633,0.001257,0.007379,-0.012478,0.003586,0.004314,0.01458,-0.001796
    ITA_Gavorrano_MA:POP001___AD_861___Coverage_69.71%,0.112685,0.148267,0.009051,-0.029393,0.023389,-0.016733,-0.00705,-0.003,0.013703,0.031527,0.009094,0.004946,-0.013677,0,-0.002307,-0.001591,0.001956,-0.002027,0.006285,-0.002376,-0.000998,-0.002968,-0.001972,-0.005543,0.009221
    ITA_Manciano_Late_Antiquity:MAS003___AD_465___unknown_coverage,0.091058,0.150298,0.004903,-0.050711,0.036314,-0.030957,0.00141,-0.003923,0.028633,0.030069,0.00406,0.003897,-0.008771,-0.002202,-0.007736,-0.001591,0.011995,-0.008235,-0.008045,-0.003752,-0.011105,-0.001731,0.013804,0.001928,0.010179
    ITA_Montelanico_MA:R52___AD_1355___Coverage_53.43%,0.102441,0.147252,-0.001508,-0.046189,0.017542,-0.01004,-0.00799,-0.007154,0.004704,0.027882,0.008444,0.000899,-0.009068,-0.007019,-0.01045,-0.016309,-0.008084,0.004561,0.003142,-0.012881,-0.001123,0.011994,-0.00037,-0.010122,0.002275
    ITA_Montelanico_MA:R53___AD_1355___Coverage_75.73%,0.111547,0.147252,-0.011691,-0.041667,0.014156,-0.022032,-0.001645,-0.011538,0.009817,0.020957,0.001461,0.001049,-0.003122,0.008533,-0.011129,-0.0118,-0.009518,-0.00266,-0.000628,-0.005628,0.007986,-0.000124,0.002095,-0.004338,-0.002395
    ITA_Montelanico_MA:R54___AD_1355___Coverage_60.26%,0.113823,0.145221,-0.015839,-0.04199,0.018157,-0.013666,0.003055,-0.005538,0.008999,0.017677,-0.002761,0.004946,-0.005054,-0.000413,-0.004614,0.001856,0.004563,-0.003801,0.010182,-0.007504,0.000125,0.006677,0.001972,0.003253,-0.000718
    ITA_Montelanico_MA:R56___AD_1355___Coverage_62.53%,0.106994,0.14319,-0.006788,-0.051357,0.014156,-0.016733,-0.00094,-0.008307,-0.003272,0.014032,0.001299,0.003897,-0.008176,0.00289,-0.017372,-0.000265,0.004172,-0.00266,0.00088,-0.008129,-0.000749,0,-0.005176,0.00735,0.003592
    ITA_Montelanico_MA:R57___AD_1355___Coverage_72.46%,0.112685,0.150298,-0.012822,-0.031008,0.016311,-0.015897,-0.003525,0.000923,-0.000614,0.021868,0.001461,0.003447,-0.011298,-0.001651,-0.012079,-0.00769,-0.007562,-0.001014,0.003645,-0.003001,0.003494,0.003586,-0.003821,-0.002651,0.000718
    ITA_Montelanico_MA:R58___AD_1100___Coverage_81.82%,0.10927,0.150298,-0.010559,-0.046189,0.016003,-0.016455,-0.00141,-0.006461,0.001227,0.016401,-0.004872,0.001798,-0.013379,-0.006055,-0.001357,0.000796,0.004172,-0.002154,-0.001885,-0.003752,0.004367,0.005935,0.000616,0.005663,0.000718
    ITA_Montelanico_MA:R59___AD_905___Coverage_79.06%,0.10927,0.148267,-0.003771,-0.037468,0.01908,-0.013108,0.002585,-0.003,0.003272,0.02041,0.001299,-0.004946,-0.003122,-0.000275,-0.013708,-0.017767,-0.010952,0.004307,-0.001885,-0.006128,0.005241,0.004699,-0.009737,-0.010483,0.001796
    ITA_Montelanico_MA:R60___AD_905___Coverage_87.24%,0.10927,0.145221,0.00528,-0.028101,0.009848,-0.009761,0.00799,-0.005077,0.012067,0.010023,-0.003573,-0.001948,-0.00446,0.003028,-0.002443,-0.007027,-0.015255,0.002027,-0.00088,-0.004627,-0.00836,-0.00371,-0.002835,0.004699,0.000479
    ITA_Montelanico_MA:R64___AD_1110___Coverage_88.28%,0.105855,0.142174,-0.004148,-0.041344,0.009232,-0.02259,0.004465,-0.005769,-0.000409,0.01877,0.007145,0.008692,-0.005946,-0.006193,-0.006786,0.003182,-0.00326,0.003927,0.000754,-0.007754,0.000998,-0.001237,0.000493,0.003615,-0.002515
    ITA_Montelanico_MA:R65___AD_1110___Coverage_88.58%,0.111547,0.147252,-0.012822,-0.047804,0.013233,-0.02008,0.00188,-0.004384,0.002045,0.020593,0.001137,0.004196,-0.008474,-0.001927,-0.011265,0.012994,0.016298,0.000253,-0.002891,-0.001126,-0.001248,0.00272,0.002342,0.007953,-0.002515
    ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:R32___AD_500___Coverage_53.38%,0.101303,0.155376,-0.007542,-0.044574,0.021542,-0.019243,-0.00376,-0.007154,0.002863,0.023326,-0.001137,0.003297,-0.008028,-0.006331,-0.002036,-0.004773,0.005867,-0.003294,-0.005782,0.003877,0.002121,-0.004081,0.003451,-0.011568,-0.000359
    ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:R35___AD_500___Coverage_50.76%,0.103579,0.150298,-0.011314,-0.046189,0.013541,-0.020638,0.00047,-0.008769,0.006954,0.021868,0.00341,0.002847,0.000149,-0.002064,-0.010179,-0.001724,0.008605,0.0019,0.000754,0.000125,-0.008235,-0.00136,0.002711,-0.010965,0.002395
    ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:R36___AD_500___Coverage_74.85%,0.114961,0.15436,0.003017,-0.022287,0.022773,-0.008925,0.00658,-0.003692,0.001023,0.018224,0.008931,0.001649,-0.008474,-0.009909,-0.001357,0.002784,0.002347,-0.000633,0.002263,-0.003126,0.003119,0.001484,-0.001356,0.005061,-0.000958
    ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:R107___AD_500___Coverage_80.22%,0.119514,0.149283,-0.004525,-0.031654,0.022773,-0.02008,-0.00893,-0.004615,0.010226,0.021322,-0.000325,0.005545,-0.00223,0.00578,-0.007872,-0.007425,0.009127,-0.00038,-0.000251,0.007504,-0.003993,-0.001607,0.010106,0.00012,-0.00012
    ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:R117___AD_500___Coverage_65.46%,0.104717,0.150298,-0.014708,-0.039406,0.011694,-0.015897,-0.00329,-0.01223,0.003272,0.014032,-0.00341,0.010341,-0.013082,0.003853,-0.013843,0.003845,0.004303,0.006841,0.003897,-0.014757,-0.005116,-0.000495,-0.005669,0.005543,-0.00491
    ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:R118___AD_500___Coverage_51.56%,0.108132,0.145221,0.003771,-0.033915,0.020619,-0.022311,-0.002115,0.003461,0.001227,0.023144,-0.004872,-0.000899,-0.017096,-0.006055,0.000814,0.009016,0.020861,-0.00152,0.006788,0.006128,-0.003369,0.004451,0.001232,0.002771,0.001557
    ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:R120___AD_500___Coverage_44.44%,0.108132,0.153345,0.012068,-0.03876,0.016926,-0.011435,-0.0047,-0.010615,0.009613,0.023144,-0.000162,0.005845,-0.005054,0.000413,-0.009908,-0.004508,-0.011995,0.007095,0.001257,-0.000375,0.000374,0.010758,0.002095,-0.003976,0.003233
    ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:R121___AD_500___Coverage_49.71%,0.112685,0.151314,0.000754,-0.031331,0.020927,-0.007251,0.00235,-0.003692,0.005727,0.024602,-0.004872,0.01079,-0.009663,0.001239,-0.013029,-0.006232,-0.008996,0,0.007668,-0.009004,0.001622,0,0.006039,0.000482,-0.011735
    ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:R122___AD_500___Coverage_78.75%,0.102441,0.153345,0.000377,-0.044574,0.016003,-0.019801,-0.00235,0.000231,0.004909,0.031891,0.003085,0.006894,-0.013231,0.006331,-0.0095,-0.010077,-0.007432,-0.007601,0.003897,-0.005378,-0.001248,-0.005564,0.003574,0.005784,0.000239
    ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:R136___AD_400___Coverage_86.69%,0.108132,0.149283,-0.013199,-0.040698,0.011079,-0.011435,-0.001645,-0.006,-0.000818,0.018224,0.00747,0.001199,-0.003568,0.004679,-0.008007,-0.001856,0.00339,0,0.005782,-0.005753,0.000125,0.006059,0,0.000964,0.003952
    ITA_Rome_MA:R1283___AD_855___Coverage_69.04%,0.108132,0.152329,0,-0.036822,0.028313,-0.009203,0.00141,0.006692,0.01309,0.024966,-0.000162,-0.001199,-0.014866,-0.000688,-0.012622,0.002652,0.001956,-0.007855,0.001131,-0.0005,0.006239,0.003339,-0.003574,-0.000602,-0.00012
    ITA_Rome_MA:R1285___AD_1015___Coverage_66.72%,0.112685,0.151314,0.008297,-0.030362,0.027082,-0.011156,-0.004465,-0.004154,0.020248,0.034989,-0.005034,0.004796,-0.015312,0.003991,0,-0.01074,-0.00691,0.005448,0.009176,-0.008504,0.002496,0.010881,-0.003821,-0.004217,-0.001197
    ITA_Rome_MA:R1287___AD_1425___Coverage_71.54%,0.118376,0.155376,0.012445,-0.028747,0.031698,-0.01004,-0.002115,-0.002308,0.007567,0.028793,0.004222,0.008243,-0.014866,-0.001651,-0.007465,-0.008221,-0.004824,0.001774,0.004399,-0.011756,0.000873,0.00272,-0.002958,0.006748,0.000479
    ITA_Rome_MA:R1290___AD_1348___Coverage_70.05%,0.108132,0.14319,-0.000377,-0.041667,0.017849,-0.015339,0.000705,-0.003461,0.007976,0.021868,0.006496,0.007943,-0.002825,-0.000138,-0.006107,0.00769,0.001825,-0.00228,-0.004777,-0.001876,-0.002745,0.00779,0.000986,0.010845,0.000599
    ITA_Tarquinia_MA:TAQ003___AD_841___Coverage_61.68%,0.097888,0.144205,-0.00792,-0.027778,0.013541,-0.017012,0.001175,-0.012692,0.006749,0.018224,0.002761,0.006444,-0.001189,-0.003991,-0.000407,-0.005569,0.005998,0.00266,-0.001508,-0.001251,0.004617,0.002349,-0.006039,0.007109,0.007185
    ITA_Tarquinia_MA:TAQ009___AD_978___Coverage_73.49%,0.108132,0.137096,0.001508,-0.037791,0.030467,-0.01506,-0.00047,0,0.011044,0.02041,0.007307,0.008542,-0.015461,0.007844,0.002036,-0.011005,-0.013299,0.006714,0.004399,-0.006003,-0.006239,0.007296,-0.004314,0.001325,-0.001676
    ITA_Tarquinia_MA:TAQ011___AD_959___Coverage_66.23%,0.10927,0.157407,0.00792,-0.029393,0.027082,-0.011156,-0.002585,0.006231,0.007567,0.015672,0.006333,0.01154,-0.012339,-0.002202,-0.000271,-0.005436,-0.012126,-0.002534,-0.002514,-0.01038,0.000873,-0.002597,0.001232,-0.00494,0.007903
    ITA_Tarquinia_MA:TAQ022___AD_1091___Coverage_51.91%,0.114961,0.150298,0.006411,-0.016473,0.026159,-0.020638,0.003995,-0.005077,0.006545,0.025149,0.00065,0.007943,-0.01665,-0.006055,-0.006107,0.00305,0.011604,-0.006588,0.007919,0.001251,0.004367,0.011005,-0.000986,-0.004097,0.001796
    ITA_Tivoli_Early_Modern:R969___AD_1650___Coverage_92.48%,0.113823,0.148267,0,-0.0323,0.01231,-0.012271,-0.000705,0.000231,0.006749,0.022962,0.006496,0.004796,-0.008771,-0.012386,-0.004479,0.011933,0.013821,0.004941,-0.000251,0.004377,-0.003369,0.001607,-0.001232,0.005663,-0.001437
    ITA_Tivoli_Early_Modern:R970___AD_1650___Coverage_49.54%,0.10927,0.14319,0.003394,-0.024225,0.023081,-0.000837,-0.00423,-0.004846,0.007772,0.015308,0.001137,0.001948,-0.007433,-0.005092,-0.00095,0.002387,0.015776,-0.006461,0.000126,0.004752,-0.005615,0.003462,0.000246,0.00494,0.001796
    ITA_Tivoli_Early_Modern:R973___AD_1650___Coverage_69.60%,0.111547,0.145221,-0.00264,-0.042636,0.010463,-0.018128,-0.0047,-0.002769,0.001432,0.021686,-0.005684,0.005095,-0.011596,-0.00523,-0.004614,0.005304,0.011083,0.004054,0.006662,-0.003752,0.001747,-0.001237,0.004314,0.006627,-0.004431
    Models with averages and closest Italian populations



    PCA with averages and closest Italian populations


  5. #105
    Banned
    Join Date
    17-01-18
    Posts
    177


    Country: Italy



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cato View Post
    Northern Sardinians are not so distant from Iron Age Rome Latins, at least according to Vahaduo/G25 (i don't know how to use other calculators).

    I don't know if its due to direct Latin or Corsican ancestry
    Modern Central Italians are closer to IA Central Italians than Sardinians are.

    Distance to: Italy_Center_IA
    0.04562886 Italian_Tuscany
    0.05430200 Italian_Umbria
    0.05513458 Italian_Marche
    0.06105049 Sardinian_North
    0.06359715 Sardinian

  6. #106
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    21,577


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Francesco View Post
    That's for sure, even if I think north western Tuscany could be an exception.
    Anyway, I just wanted to point out that a strong continuity in the area since the Iron Age is not surprising at all. The considerations on the dialect were just an additional starting point of reflection that I find quite interesting, since I came roughly from that region.
    Obviously, we're going to have to wait for ancient dna from the area to know how much continuity from the Iron Age is present. I sincerely hope that there will be samples from the area called Lunezia, which is the area from which all my ancestors, with a few exceptions, come.

    I sincerely doubt it will ever become a political reality, but the proposed borders are below:



    https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunezia

    The idea of creating a region that would incorporate areas of Liguria,
    Tuscany, Emilia-Romagna and Lombardy was first discussed in the 1800s by the
    founding fathers of the Italian Republic. To be called Lunezia, a name coined
    in 1989 by magistrate Alberto Grassi and based on the names of the areas of
    ‘Luni’ or ‘Lunigiana’ and ‘Spezia,’ the proposed region would have incorporated
    the provinces of La Spezia, Massa-Carrara, Parma, Piacenza, Reggio Emilia and
    Mantova, as well as smaller parts of Cremona and Lucca.

    So, there was since then a recognition of the historical ties between these areas.

    Upon the unification of Italy, however, the areas that would have become Lunezia were incorporated into bordering
    regions.

    Polling at one point indicated about 45% of the population supported the idea of creating this new administrative unit.

    There's a remarkable similarity between the borders of that region, and my ancestral area according to ancestrydna.




    Anyway, as you will see, more than half of the region is mountainous, and mountains have always been a refuge.

    In terms of yDna, the Garfagnana, the mountainous hinterland region of Lucca, has extremely high levels of R1b U-152. Everyone in my father's area in the Apennines has so far tested U-152, which is also his lineage.

    Now, could some of that be Apuani (Celt-Ligure), as well as Etruscan, Italic and other Iron Age inhabitants of the region? I don't know. Maybe the Romans were right and they killed or exiled most of them, in eastern Liguria if not in the west. They need to do in depth testing of the lines before everyone with all four ancestors from this area are dead.

    What has always surprised and annoyed me is that it's my understanding that all those samples from the Apennines taken by Cavalli-Sforza are still at Stanford. Why on earth haven't they been used? Why aren't they part of upcoming papers for a comparison? They can list them as contributors etc. but why not use such a wonderful resource?

    My guess, although I hope it's an educated guess, is that those people may be close autosomally to the people of Val Borbera, but it would be good to know.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  7. #107
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    26-01-09
    Posts
    966

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Z36

    Country: UK - Scotland



    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Er Monnezza View Post
    Modern Central Italians are closer to IA Central Italians than Sardinians are.

    Distance to: Italy_Center_IA
    0.04562886 Italian_Tuscany
    0.05430200 Italian_Umbria
    0.05513458 Italian_Marche
    0.06105049 Sardinian_North
    0.06359715 Sardinian
    It seems that at a distance of 4.5, the modern Tuscans are not radically different from Iron Age Central Italians.

  8. #108
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    7,864

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1b2a2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b7

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Non-Tuscan central Italians are indeed Northern-shifted Southerners. Also, Southern Italians are indeed heterogenous. I could be as close to, or distant to people in Umbria, as I am to people in Puglia. My family comes from the same region, from the same province, from the same two towns; time in memorial:

    Distance to: Jovialis
    3.19426048 Umbria:PG06
    3.38212951 Lazio:NOR28
    3.39328749 Marche:MarABY030D
    3.47597468 Marche:MarACO100D
    3.80215728 Marche:MarACY030D
    4.48544312 Marche:MarABP050D
    4.48723746 Umbria:PG04
    4.49059016 Umbria:PG15
    4.50217725 Marche:MarABN020D
    4.66113720 Lazio:NOR24
    4.77789703 Umbria:PG03
    5.01162648 Umbria:PG07
    5.20982725 Marche:MarACW080D
    5.54261671 Lazio:PG30
    5.67623995 Marche:MarABQ080D
    5.76707031 Marche:MarABI020D
    5.99716600 Umbria:PG11
    6.39048511 Marche:MarABG010D
    6.42788457 Marche:MarADG030D
    6.60829025 Marche:MarACV100D
    6.97544264 Marche:MarADC050D
    7.67540227 Lazio:PG28
    7.78398356 Marche:MarACW030D
    8.48450352 Umbria:PG12
    8.67656614 Marche:MarABU050D
    9.67978306 Umbria:PG08


    Distance to: Jovialis
    1.36923336 Abruzzo:15_Behar_2013
    1.66129468 Abruzzo:16_Behar_2013
    1.71953482 Abruzzo:20_Behar_2013
    1.85132385 Molise:PG26_Molise
    1.94663813 Abruzzo:9_Behar_2013
    2.16529444 Abruzzo:Alp140
    2.71775643 Abruzzo:Alp090
    2.73558038 Abruzzo:Alp616
    2.75210828 Abruzzo:22_Behar_2013
    2.82391572 Abruzzo:23_Behar_2013
    3.32980480 Molise:PG27
    3.41641625 Abruzzo:17_Behar_2013
    3.70070264 Abruzzo:Alp503
    3.77326119 Abruzzo:ALP161
    3.97039041 Abruzzo:19_Behar_2013
    4.37315675 Abruzzo:Alp380
    4.49109118 Abruzzo:Alp162
    4.67142377 Abruzzo:14_Behar_2013
    4.77744702 Abruzzo:13_Behar_2013
    5.17125710 Abruzzo:ALP205
    5.57361642 Abruzzo:21_Behar_2013


    Distance to: Jovialis
    2.89611809 Apulia:cera1
    2.91856129 Apulia:cera2
    3.34511584 Apulia:cera8
    3.49479613 Apulia:Pu45
    3.80621860 Apulia:cera9
    3.92572286 Apulia:ALP583
    4.45463803 Apulia:ALP379
    4.52702993 Apulia:GS34
    4.84129115 Apulia:Pu2
    5.32649040 Apulia:GS32
    6.43630329 Apulia:GS47
    6.95402042 Apulia:Pu7
    8.27652101 Apulia:Pu3
    8.99969444 Apulia:Pu8


    Distance to: Jovialis
    3.78219513 Sicily:TP04_Busby_2015
    3.86023315 Campania:NaN212CR
    3.93819756 Campania:NaN238DM
    4.19687979 Basilicata:PG24
    4.28499708 Sicily:TP06_Busby_2015
    4.30936190 Basilicata:PG21
    4.52765944 Basilicata:PG18
    4.57330296 Basilicata:PG17
    4.62709412 Basilicata:PG19
    4.67279360 Sicily:SR48R_Busby_2015
    4.96169326 Campania:NaN119AMR
    5.08283386 Sicily:Ag-Sicily8_Behar_2013
    5.08283386 Sicily:Ag-Sicily:8
    5.10130375 Basilicata:PG25
    5.13775243 Campania:NaN289RM
    5.17302619 Campania:NaN293SF
    5.21470996 Sicily:SR64_Busby_2015
    5.21470996 Sicily:Siracusa:SR64_LazaridisNat2014
    5.23111843 Sicily:SR60_Busby_2015
    5.23111843 Sicily:Siracusa:SR60_LazaridisNat2014
    5.24194620 Sicily:C-Sicily50_Behar_2013
    5.24194620 Sicily:C-Sicily:50
    5.26858615 Sicily:W-Sicily5a_Behar_2013
    5.26858615 Sicily:W-Sicily:5a
    5.27725307 Sicily:W-Sicily1_Behar_2013
    5.27725307 Sicily:W-Sicily:1
    5.31319113 Sicily:W-Sicily7_Behar_2013
    5.35290575 Campania:NaN43TC
    5.41809930 Sicily:W-Sicily4_Behar_2013
    5.46488792 Sicily:TP08_Busby_2015
    5.47620306 Sicily:SR44_Busby_2015
    5.77688497 Campania:NaN128LA
    5.87851172 Sicily:Ag-Sicily5_Behar_2013
    5.87851172 Sicily:Ag-Sicily:5
    5.96128342 Campania:NaN207MM
    6.00906815 Campania:NaN58AC
    6.07768048 Sicily:TP25_Busby_2015
    6.09664662 Sicily:W-Sicily3_Behar_2013
    6.09664662 Sicily:W-Sicily:3
    6.19121959 Basilicata:PG20
    6.19574854 Sicily:C-Sicily57_Behar_2013
    6.35270808 Basilicata:PG16
    6.47576250 Campania:NaN46TC
    6.66920535 Sicily:W-Sicily9_Behar_2013
    6.66920535 Sicily:W-Sicily:9
    6.67492322 Sicily:W-Sicily5b_Behar_2013
    6.69049326 Basilicata:PG22
    6.74104591 Sicily:SR23_Busby_2015
    7.01009986 Sicily:E-Sicily18_Behar_2013
    7.01009986 Sicily:E-Sicily:18
    7.01981481 Sicily:TP05_Busby_2015
    7.01981481 Sicily:Trapani:TP05_LazaridisNat2014
    7.08741843 Calabria:ALP596
    7.10824873 Sicily:TP07_Busby_2015
    7.10824873 Sicily:Trapani:TP07_LazaridisNat2014
    7.63080599 Campania:NaN195ST
    7.64138731 Sicily:W-Sicily21_Behar_2013
    7.64138731 Sicily:W-Sicily:21
    8.42525371 Campania:NaN65DFG
    8.81372793 Campania:NaN77FAM
    9.62319074 Campania:NaN275IS
    9.91437340 Calabria:ALP582

  9. #109
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    7,864

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1b2a2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b7

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    The C6 cluster has existed in every period, since R437 in the Iron Age.

    The most likely explanation for the expansion of that group in the imperial era is that southern Italian populations were included into Rome after the unification of the peninsula. The continued existence of it into the present is a testament that. Since foreign populations died away due to the urban graveyard effect.

  10. #110
    Regular Member Wanderer's Avatar
    Join Date
    12-04-18
    Age
    30
    Posts
    345

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J-L283 (z627)

    Ethnic group
    Ancient
    Country: Algeria



    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Why on earth would I we need to do that, when they are already divided into clusters based on haplotypes in the paper?

    Its interesting to note that sardinia seems to high farmer ancestry.
    While maros culture has high nealithic agean ancestry.

  11. #111
    Regular Member Stuvanè's Avatar
    Join Date
    25-09-16
    Location
    Milan
    Posts
    559

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1e

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: Italy



    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Poxy View Post
    I would like to know the exact definition of Po Valley. Is it okay if I ask a few questions I have?

    HGDP samples of the Bergamo are the Po Valley? or the Alps?
    The metropolitan area of Milan, which accounts for a third of northern Italy's population, is the Po Valley?



    That's so sad
    Sorry, I can only answer you now at the request of Pax.


    On the one hand, there is a very 'enlarged' meaning of the Po Valley ( sometimes said 'Padania'), which often has more of a cultural/anthropological meaning equivalent to northern Italy (the Italian territory north of the approximate La Spezia-Rimini line), encompassing both the lowland areas and the surrounding Alpine and Apennine arcs.


    Strictly speaking - as geographers - the Po Valley should be distinguished from the surrounding mountainous/hilly areas and would be the territory that hosts the Po river basin below 300 (max. 400) metres in altitude.
    The Val Seriana from which the Bergamo samples are taken is already above this limit, so to be rigorous, its populations are not 'Po Valley' in the strict sense of the word - even though they are immediate neighbours - but would already fall within what we can call pre-alpine and even alpine to all intents and purposes. And usually in the autosomal calculators you find around, the difference is detectable, with lowland populations (and in particular those of the 'Lower' plain) often becoming Tuscan-like in the results or very close to them (perhaps with a more northern and/or eastern cline).


    Here I did a quick trick with the old k13 coordinates of modern peoples and an ADC coefficient adjusted to 0.5, without pretending to be scientific, using my own data and those of a mutual friend of mine and Pax's, who is originally from Val Camonica (upper Lombardy in the Brescia area, in practice a valley parallel and more easterly to Val Seriana). I, on the other hand, come from Ferrara and Romagna, so I am mostly located in the lower plain and its eastern/southeastern edge, on the Adriatic coast. You will see that even though we are both northern Italians, we are quite different, and my friend's Mesolithic elevation from Valcamonica, evidently better preserved from later invasions, draws him into a cline closer to southwestern Europe. On the other hand, it is evident that the lowland populations assimilated different influences in both the protohistoric, historic and medieval periods, creating a certain variability in the northern Italian group.

    https://imgur.com/a/pc1syJu


    Camun Stuvane.png

    Milan and its province are located in the middle of the Po Valley, being at an altitude of about 120 metres above sea level, but its population has undergone major demographic changes in the last century (mainly with internal migrations from southern Italy), which does not make it an ideal place to recover indigenous DNA.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Stuvanè; 27-09-22 at 17:52. Reason: inserting image

  12. #112
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    26-01-09
    Posts
    966

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Z36

    Country: UK - Scotland



    Quote Originally Posted by Stuvanè View Post
    Sorry, I can only answer you now at the request of Pax.


    On the one hand, there is a very 'enlarged' meaning of the Po Valley ( sometimes said 'Padania'), which often has more of a cultural/anthropological meaning equivalent to northern Italy (the Italian territory north of the approximate La Spezia-Rimini line), encompassing both the lowland areas and the surrounding Alpine and Apennine arcs.


    Strictly speaking - as geographers - the Po Valley should be distinguished from the surrounding mountainous/hilly areas and would be the territory that hosts the Po river basin below 300 (max. 400) metres in altitude.
    The Val Seriana from which the Bergamo samples are taken is already above this limit, so to be rigorous, its populations are not 'Po Valley' in the strict sense of the word - even though they are immediate neighbours - but would already fall within what we can call pre-alpine and even alpine to all intents and purposes. And usually in the autosomal calculators you find around, the difference is detectable, with lowland populations (and in particular those of the 'Lower' plain) often becoming Tuscan-like in the results or very close to them (perhaps with a more northern and/or eastern cline).


    Here I did a quick trick with the old k13 coordinates of modern peoples and an ADC coefficient adjusted to 0.5, without pretending to be scientific, using my own data and those of a mutual friend of mine and Pax's, who is originally from Val Camonica (upper Lombardy in the Brescia area, in practice a valley parallel and more easterly to Val Seriana). I, on the other hand, come from Ferrara and Romagna, so I am mostly located in the lower plain and its eastern/southeastern edge, on the Adriatic coast. You will see that even though we are both northern Italians, we are quite different, and my friend's Mesolithic elevation from Valcamonica, evidently better preserved from later invasions, draws him into a cline closer to southwestern Europe. On the other hand, it is evident that the lowland populations assimilated different influences in both the protohistoric, historic and medieval periods, creating a certain variability in the northern Italian group.

    https://imgur.com/a/pc1syJu


    Camun Stuvane.png

    Milan and its province are located in the middle of the Po Valley, being at an altitude of about 120 metres above sea level, but its population has undergone major demographic changes in the last century (mainly with internal migrations from southern Italy), which does not make it an ideal place to recover indigenous DNA.

    How would you explain the 17pc "Romanian"...Balkan influence?

  13. #113
    Regular Member Stuvanè's Avatar
    Join Date
    25-09-16
    Location
    Milan
    Posts
    559

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1e

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: Italy



    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    How would you explain the 17pc "Romanian"...Balkan influence?
    In every oracle I use that type of genetic component always comes up and not in small percentages.
    The Adriatic is a sea that does not act as a barrier in this respect, quite the contrary.


    I have no hard data at hand, but I can only speculate on a few facts (which are not mutually exclusive)


    1) prehistoric/protohistoric influences from the middle and lower Danube that can often be found in the northern Italians (north-eastern): in the end, it always remains to be understood what the autosomal DNA of certain peoples of the Peninsula other than the Etruscans and Latins was: Italics, Umbrians, Picenes..;


    2) influences of historical times: in the Roman age, Ravenna and all its environs hosted the discharged veteran classics of the imperial fleet, about half of whom were recruited in the Balkans, according to some accounts by Tacitus;


    3) similar forms of military colonisation from the same regions in the late antique and exarchal age;


    4) immigrations of agricultural, military and artisan labourers and/or servants of South Slavic or Albanian stock from the late Middle Ages until the middle of the 16th century (and possibly beyond), following the Black Death of the 14th century and/or the Ottoman expansion.


    At home, the latter hypothesis is often rumoured because of some family hearsay that is, however, insufficiently documented

  14. #114
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    7,864

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1b2a2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b7

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    1 members found this post helpful.
    ^^ R1 Protovillanovan clusters with Cetina. I think when we get more samples from Italic samples from the east coast we will see more of this trend.

  15. #115
    Regular Member Francesco's Avatar
    Join Date
    09-10-21
    Posts
    115


    Ethnic group
    Italian (tuscan)
    Country: Italy



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    ^^ R1 Protovillanovan clusters with Cetina. I think when we get more samples from Italic samples from the east coast we will see more of this trend.
    In another post I hypothized that the second wave of proto-italics (assuming there actually were two wave of italic speaking people in the paeninsula) could have been a little bit more balkan shifted than the first one, due to more prolonged contacts with people from the cetina and vucedol cultures.

  16. #116
    Regular Member torzio's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-05-19
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    3,382

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 - Y79536
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a

    Ethnic group
    North East Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    ^^ R1 Protovillanovan clusters with Cetina. I think when we get more samples from Italic samples from the east coast we will see more of this trend.

    we have discussed this in the past .....R1 sample is a woman...born in Liburnia and died in the Liburnian colony of Picene Italy ( martinscuro and tronto areas )



    she was either from Nin or city as per link below

    https://gohvarblog.com/2016/06/12/th...nd-roman-town/

    The last Liburnians in Picene died out or where absorbed into italian society by 440BC
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather paternal mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-PF6155

    "Fear profits man, nothing"

  17. #117
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    7,864

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1b2a2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b7

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    we have discussed this in the past .....R1 sample is a woman...born in Liburnia and died in the Liburnian colony of Picene Italy ( martinscuro and tronto areas )

    she was either from Nin or city as per link below
    https://gohvarblog.com/2016/06/12/th...nd-roman-town/
    The last Liburnians in Picene died out or where absorbed into italian society by 440BC
    The text doesn't definitively say that she is from there. However, it is clear that she died at the boarder of Le Marche and Abruzzo. Also the material culture indicates she was proto-villanovan.

    Cetina is however attested to have existed in Italy.

    Veneto in particular is close to Cetina in terms of genetic affinity, based on my analysis.

  18. #118
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    7,864

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1b2a2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b7

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    I think it is likely, these Northern Italian-like people mixed with southern southern sources, which gave rise to groups like C6.

    I think the most imperative samples we need are the oscans, and Lucanians to really know. A good question IMO: Were they similar to Cetina/R1, but a bit more southern-eastern shifted?

    If Italic Tribes in the south were more south-eastern, than they would fit well with a two way with "standard" 1:10 Minoan/Yamnaya Mycenaeans.

    The Northern-Italian-like Cetina plus EIA Palace of Nestor makes for a fairly good fit. I get about 3.5+ with that.

  19. #119
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    7,864

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1b2a2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b7

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    Distance to: GRC_Palace_of_Nestor_EIA:I19368
    4.41243697 Basilicata:PG22
    5.86587589 Athens:Greek_Athens_TLA018
    5.96119116 Greece_F:GreeceF52k
    5.98579986 Smyrna:GreeceSmyrna9
    6.06666300 Campania:NaN289RM
    6.10811755 Greece_F:GreeceF69k
    6.37657432 Basilicata:PG20
    6.54068039 Apulia:GS47
    6.56834835 Athens:Greek_Athens_TLA012
    6.57667849 Sicily:W-Sicily5b_Behar_2013
    6.58770825 Athens:Greek_Athens_TLA024
    6.69323539 Apulia:GS32
    6.70374522 Greece_F:GreeceF36k
    6.84857649 Apulia:ALP583
    6.85011679 Apulia:Pu7
    6.89119003 Greece_Central:GreeceCentral8
    7.00041427 Sicily:SR23_Busby_2015
    7.12744695 Apulia:Pu45
    7.21500520 Apulia:Pu3
    7.21907889 Apulia:ALP379
    7.29932874 Basilicata:PG16
    7.31833314 Crete:Crete8
    7.37885492 Sicily:W-Sicily1_Behar_2013
    7.37885492 Sicily:W-Sicily:1
    7.43930104 Abruzzo:ALP205

  20. #120
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    7,864

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1b2a2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b7

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    Distance to: GRC_Palace_of_Nestor_EIA:I19368
    6.14121324 C5:Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R69_ANAS
    6.75556067 C5:Late_Antiquity_Eastern_Mediterranean:R32_Mausol e_di_Augusto
    6.96630462 C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R57_Villa_Magna
    7.27677126 C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R58_Villa_Magna
    7.29489548 C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R53_Villa_Magna
    7.73488203 C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R59_Villa_Magna
    7.76294403 C6:Imperial_Mediterranean:R125_Casale_del_Dolce
    7.79598615 C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R973_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cian ti
    7.89583434 C6:Imperial_Mediterranean:R49_Centocelle_Necropoli s
    8.01438082 C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R65_Villa_Magna
    8.26848837 C5:Late_Antiquity_Eastern_Mediterranean:R122_S_Erc olano_Necropolis_Ostia
    8.61850335 C6:Imperial_Mediterranean:R436_Palestrina
    8.79553864 C6:Imperial_Mediterranean:R136_Marcellino_&_Pietro
    8.80618533 C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R56_Villa_Magna
    8.85637059 C6:Imperial_Mediterranean:R51_Centocelle_Necropoli s
    9.00314945 C6:Imperial_Mediterranean:R836_Civitanova_Marche
    9.18182444 C6:Imperial_Mediterranean:R1544_Necropolis_of_Mont e_Agnese
    9.21876347 C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R1290_Villa_Magna
    9.36573008 C6:Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R35_Celio
    9.38364535 C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R54_Villa_Magna
    9.39797319 C5:Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R114_Via_Paisiel lo_Necropolis
    9.43728775 C6:Imperial_Mediterranean:R137_Marcellino_&_Pietro
    9.46988384 C5:Late_Antiquity_Eastern_Mediterranean:R30_Mausol e_di_Augusto
    9.88189253 C6:Imperial_Mediterranean:R131_Via_Paisiello_Necro polis
    10.01655629 C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R64_Villa_Magna

  21. #121
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    12-11-19
    Posts
    226


    Country: Italy



    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I think it is likely, these Northern Italian-like people mixed with southern southern sources, which gave rise to groups like C6.

    I think the most imperative samples we need are the oscans, and Lucanians to really know. A good question IMO: Were they similar to Cetina/R1, but a bit more southern-eastern shifted?

    If Italic Tribes in the south were more south-eastern, than they would fit well with a two way with "standard" 1:10 Minoan/Yamnaya Mycenaeans.

    The Northern-Italian-like Cetina plus EIA Palace of Nestor makes for a fairly good fit. I get about 3.5+ with that.
    I believe that "Oscans" and "Lucanians", at least at the beginning, were genetically similar to Latins, but they were the latest arrivals in southern Italy, since before them Greeks invaded the lands occupied by whom they called "Ausones", and they might have made up the bulk of the population in south Italy during the IA ( they themselves, if they were Italic as it is likely, being a mixture of genetically north Italian-like proto-italics and something more southern. Of course with time it is likely they were assimilated by incoming Osco-umbrian speakers and the genetic profile of a "Lucanian" or an "Oscan" might have been thus more similar to that of previous Ausones.

  22. #122
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    7,864

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1b2a2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b7

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Leopoldo Leone View Post
    I believe that "Oscans" and "Lucanians", at least at the beginning, were genetically similar to Latins, but they were the latest arrivals in southern Italy, since before them Greeks invaded the lands occupied by whom they called "Ausones", and they might have made up the bulk of the population in south Italy during the IA ( they themselves, if they were Italic as it is likely, being a mixture of genetically north Italian-like proto-italics and something more southern. Of course with time it is likely they were assimilated by incoming Osco-umbrian speakers and the genetic profile of a "Lucanian" or an "Oscan" might have been thus more similar to that of previous Ausones.
    For me, I think when they proto-Italics arrived they may have been a bit different. Considering the fact that Central Italian ChL had a WHG resurgence. Therefore it was the neolithic inhabitants that already had WHG, prior to mixing with incoming people. Which is why Latins and Etruscans are pulled more to the "west". I think the proto-Italics were a bit more Steppe, and had less if any straight up WHG at all.

    For example, R1 doesn't seem to have straight up WHG, like Etruscans/Latins.


  23. #123
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    7,864

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1b2a2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b7

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    For me, I think when they proto-Italics arrived they may have been a bit different. Considering the fact that Central Italian ChL had a WHG resurgence. Therefore it was the neolithic inhabitants that already had WHG, prior to mixing with incoming people. Which is why Latins and Etruscans are pulled more to the "west". I think the proto-Italics were a bit more Steppe, and had less if any straight up WHG at all.

    For example, R1 doesn't seem to have straight up WHG, like Etruscans/Latins.

    Therefore, I think what Oscans and Lucanians may have looked like depends on the neolithic/ChL people that inhabited the area prior to the arrival of Proto-Italics. Lets say the proto-Italics look more or less like R1 (Steppe + Anatolia_n), the question is, did the neolithic/ChL people of southern Italy also have a WHG resurgence? Did it pass over them? Or did they have more CHG? My theory on the matter is that southern Italian_n and/or ChL was probably more CHG (minon/Greece_N-like) before mixing with proto-Italics.

  24. #124
    Regular Member torzio's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-05-19
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    3,382

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 - Y79536
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a

    Ethnic group
    North East Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Leopoldo Leone View Post
    I believe that "Oscans" and "Lucanians", at least at the beginning, were genetically similar to Latins, but they were the latest arrivals in southern Italy, since before them Greeks invaded the lands occupied by whom they called "Ausones", and they might have made up the bulk of the population in south Italy during the IA ( they themselves, if they were Italic as it is likely, being a mixture of genetically north Italian-like proto-italics and something more southern. Of course with time it is likely they were assimilated by incoming Osco-umbrian speakers and the genetic profile of a "Lucanian" or an "Oscan" might have been thus more similar to that of previous Ausones.

    When do you think the Greeks first arrived in Italy ? .................the net states from the 8th century ..............I know the Corinthians took Corfu from the liburnians in 733BC before heading to Italy along the adriatic sea

    Oscan ? .........do you mean Oscan-Umbrian

    Samnites and Sabellics are 2 of the many tribes under oscan-umbrian

  25. #125
    Regular Member torzio's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-05-19
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    3,382

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 - Y79536
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a

    Ethnic group
    North East Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Therefore, I think what Oscans and Lucanians may have looked like depends on the neolithic/ChL people that inhabited the area prior to the arrival of Proto-Italics. Lets say the proto-Italics look more or less like R1 (Steppe + Anatolia_n), the question is, did the neolithic/ChL people of southern Italy also have a WHG resurgence? Did it pass over them? Or did they have more CHG? My theory on the matter is that southern Italian_n and/or ChL was probably more CHG (minon/Greece_N-like) before mixing with proto-Italics.

    Italic tribes where in Italy many centuries before any Greeks arrived in the 8th century BC

    The Umbri Italic tribes along the Adriatic sea would have been mixing with Eastern Adriatic balkan tribes many centuries earlier.

Page 5 of 8 FirstFirst ... 34567 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •