K12b Analyzing the Mediterranean Cluster C6 from Antonio M et al. 2019

[Leopoldo Leone]

I think it is likely, these Northern Italian-like people mixed with southern southern sources, which gave rise to groups like C6.

I think the most imperative samples we need are the oscans, and Lucanians to really know. A good question IMO: Were they similar to Cetina/R1, but a bit more southern-eastern shifted?

If Italic Tribes in the south were more south-eastern, than they would fit well with a two way with "standard" 1:10 Minoan/Yamnaya Mycenaeans.

The Northern-Italian-like Cetina plus EIA Palace of Nestor makes for a fairly good fit. I get about 3.5+ with that.

I believe that "Oscans" and "Lucanians", at least at the beginning, were genetically similar to Latins, but they were the latest arrivals in southern Italy, since before them Greeks invaded the lands occupied by whom they called "Ausones", and they might have made up the bulk of the population in south Italy during the IA ( they themselves, if they were Italic as it is likely, being a mixture of genetically north Italian-like proto-italics and something more southern. Of course with time it is likely they were assimilated by incoming Osco-umbrian speakers and the genetic profile of a "Lucanian" or an "Oscan" might have been thus more similar to that of previous Ausones.

 

[Jovialis]

I believe that "Oscans" and "Lucanians", at least at the beginning, were genetically similar to Latins, but they were the latest arrivals in southern Italy, since before them Greeks invaded the lands occupied by whom they called "Ausones", and they might have made up the bulk of the population in south Italy during the IA ( they themselves, if they were Italic as it is likely, being a mixture of genetically north Italian-like proto-italics and something more southern. Of course with time it is likely they were assimilated by incoming Osco-umbrian speakers and the genetic profile of a "Lucanian" or an "Oscan" might have been thus more similar to that of previous Ausones.

For me, I think when they proto-Italics arrived they may have been a bit different. Considering the fact that Central Italian ChL had a WHG resurgence. Therefore it was the neolithic inhabitants that already had WHG, prior to mixing with incoming people. Which is why Latins and Etruscans are pulled more to the "west". I think the proto-Italics were a bit more Steppe, and had less if any straight up WHG at all.

For example, R1 doesn't seem to have straight up WHG, like Etruscans/Latins.

 

[Jovialis]

For me, I think when they proto-Italics arrived they may have been a bit different. Considering the fact that Central Italian ChL had a WHG resurgence. Therefore it was the neolithic inhabitants that already had WHG, prior to mixing with incoming people. Which is why Latins and Etruscans are pulled more to the "west". I think the proto-Italics were a bit more Steppe, and had less if any straight up WHG at all.

For example, R1 doesn't seem to have straight up WHG, like Etruscans/Latins.

Therefore, I think what Oscans and Lucanians may have looked like depends on the neolithic/ChL people that inhabited the area prior to the arrival of Proto-Italics. Lets say the proto-Italics look more or less like R1 (Steppe + Anatolia_n), the question is, did the neolithic/ChL people of southern Italy also have a WHG resurgence? Did it pass over them? Or did they have more CHG? My theory on the matter is that southern Italian_n and/or ChL was probably more CHG (minon/Greece_N-like) before mixing with proto-Italics.

 

[torzio]

I believe that "Oscans" and "Lucanians", at least at the beginning, were genetically similar to Latins, but they were the latest arrivals in southern Italy, since before them Greeks invaded the lands occupied by whom they called "Ausones", and they might have made up the bulk of the population in south Italy during the IA ( they themselves, if they were Italic as it is likely, being a mixture of genetically north Italian-like proto-italics and something more southern. Of course with time it is likely they were assimilated by incoming Osco-umbrian speakers and the genetic profile of a "Lucanian" or an "Oscan" might have been thus more similar to that of previous Ausones.

When do you think the Greeks first arrived in Italy ? .................the net states from the 8th century ..............I know the Corinthians took Corfu from the liburnians in 733BC before heading to Italy along the adriatic sea

Oscan ? .........do you mean Oscan-Umbrian

Samnites and Sabellics are 2 of the many tribes under oscan-umbrian

 

[torzio]

Therefore, I think what Oscans and Lucanians may have looked like depends on the neolithic/ChL people that inhabited the area prior to the arrival of Proto-Italics. Lets say the proto-Italics look more or less like R1 (Steppe + Anatolia_n), the question is, did the neolithic/ChL people of southern Italy also have a WHG resurgence? Did it pass over them? Or did they have more CHG? My theory on the matter is that southern Italian_n and/or ChL was probably more CHG (minon/Greece_N-like) before mixing with proto-Italics.

Italic tribes where in Italy many centuries before any Greeks arrived in the 8th century BC

The Umbri Italic tribes along the Adriatic sea would have been mixing with Eastern Adriatic balkan tribes many centuries earlier.

 

[Jovialis]

Italic tribes where in Italy many centuries before any Greeks arrived in the 8th century BC
The Umbri Italic tribes along the Adriatic sea would have been mixing with Eastern Adriatic balkan tribes many centuries earlier.

Yes, but I propose that South italian_n/ChL were greek_n/Minoan-like. Not actually culturally Greek. But as you said they did arrive later.

We need samples from the region from Neolithic and copper age to confirm.

 

[Francesco]

As I said somewhere else, my bet is that southern italic tribes could plot near the Crete Armenoi sample, due to the minoan-like substratum in southern Italy (while in northern italy the calcholithic substratum was probably sardinian-like). Then, their interaction with the Iron age Greek of Magna Grecia could have gave birth to the C 6 cluster. Further samples from Oscan tribes (Samnitic, Lucani etc.) and Greek colonies from all Magna Grecia (and not just from one colony, since the provenience of Greek colonists was pretty diverse) will greatly help in clearing the picture.

 

[Jovialis]

As I said somewhere else, my bet is that southern italic tribes could plot near the Crete Armenoi sample, due to the minoan-like substratum in southern Italy (while in northern italy the calcholithic substratum was probably sardinian-like). Then, their interaction with the Iron age Greek of Magna Grecia could have gave birth to the C 6 cluster. Further samples from Oscan tribes (Samnitic, Lucani etc.) and Greek colonies from all Magna Grecia (and not just from one colony, since the provenience of Greek colonists was pretty diverse) will greatly help in clearing the picture.

Indeed, I think that's a very sensible proposition that I agree with.

 

[Jovialis]

Finally, I believe the interaction of all of these groups together would neatly explain the crux of the Italian-cline.

 

[Leopoldo Leone]

As I said somewhere else, my bet is that southern italic tribes could plot near the Crete Armenoi sample, due to the minoan-like substratum in southern Italy (while in northern italy the calcholithic substratum was probably sardinian-like). Then, their interaction with the Iron age Greek of Magna Grecia could have gave birth to the C 6 cluster. Further samples from Oscan tribes (Samnitic, Lucani etc.) and Greek colonies from all Magna Grecia (and not just from one colony, since the provenience of Greek colonists was pretty diverse) will greatly help in clearing the picture.

As far as the evidence goes the neolithic substratum in south Italy wasn't Minoan-like (though in central Italy it was already Peloponnesian_N-like), but some minoan-like
input arrived during the middle bronze age (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/584714v1.supplementary-material in Sicily, at least, but I'd be surprised it didn't interest other areas of south Italy).

 

[Jovialis]

As far as the evidence goes the neolithic substratum in south Italy wasn't Minoan-like (though in central Italy it was already Peloponnesian_N-like), but some minoan-like
input arrived during the middle bronze age (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/584714v1.supplementary-material in Sicily, at least, but I'd be surprised it didn't interest other areas of south Italy).

I believe it was Palemro Trapani who discovered that they did indeed find Minoan to be a viable model in the supplement of that paper.

 

[Jovialis]

Sicilian Bronze Age Proximal Modeling
718 We modeled Bronze Age Sicilians as having a local source of ancestry represented by Sicily_MN, 719 and then added combinations of Bell Beaker culture associated populations from the west (as we
720 find Iberia-specific Y chromosome haplogroup R1b1a1a2a1a2a1 (Z195) in Early Bronze Age Sicily), 721 namely Iberia and France (Bell_Beaker_Iberia_highsteppe, France_Bell_Beaker). We also use
722 Minoan_Lassithi as a proxy for Iranian-related ancestry

I think you're right to say that this admixture may have arrived in the bronze-age. So relying solely on Neolithic and Copper age samples to prove their existence may not be necessary.

 

[Jovialis]

^^curiously that study decided not to go with this model. They probably should have, because the reaction from the community that read it was a near universal rejection. Even the people on anthrogenica thought it was purpostrous. It is probably more woke to say modern Sicilians are 40% morrocan LN or whatever it was. This paper in many ways was sort of like the beginning of the "netflixization" of archeogenetics.

 

[Francesco]

As far as the evidence goes the neolithic substratum in south Italy wasn't Minoan-like (though in central Italy it was already Peloponnesian_N-like), but some minoan-like
input arrived during the middle bronze age (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/584714v1.supplementary-material in Sicily, at least, but I'd be surprised it didn't interest other areas of south Italy).

Yes, right puntualization: the Sicilian Neolithic was peloponnesian Neolithic-like. By the start of the bronze age we have some beaker associated sample, but still very AN-like.
Then by the middle bronze age we see a shift towards the Minoan cluster. That's the genetic landscape the proto-italic invaders could have found in southern Italy, between middle and late bronze age.

 

[Palermo Trapani]

I believe it was Palemro Trapani who discovered that they did indeed find Minoan to be a viable model in the supplement of that paper.

Jovialis: In the Southern Italian Ethnogensis thread that you started (a good thread), I noted that the Marcus et al 2020 paper suggested/indicated that Minoan Like ancestry could be used to viably model Bronze Age Sicilians (post #33). The Marcus et al 2020 paper clearly in my view indicates that, even though they did not present it with an empirical model. Figure 4 in that paper clearly shows, in my opinion, that Minoan related ancestry could be used to model Bronze Age Sicily and thus I would suggest it is likely Minoan related would also be a viable source ancestry for other Bronze Age Southern Italians once those samples are available. I had always questioned the use of Late Neolithic Morrocan to model modern Sicilians and actually questioned it in a comment in the pre-print version of the paper, even though Late Neolithic Morrocan was heavy in EEF ancestry, there is no evidence of a migration from EEF to North Africa then into Sicily. Seemed like a lazy choice, or maybe one of convenience or maybe one of those political choices. Leopoldo Leone (post 84 in that thread( found the the supplements that were updated in the Fernandes et al 2020 paper which indeed showed empirically that Minoan ancestry could be used to viably model the Bronze Age Sicilians, along with Bell Beaker (with Steppe admixture) and Neolithic EEF related ancestry.

 

[Jovialis]

I think you're right to say that this admixture may have arrived in the bronze-age. So relying solely on Neolithic and Copper age samples to prove their existence may not be necessary.

Highly interesting!

Central European Bell Beaker + Minoan

I need to see where it comes from specifically. Seems to coincide with the "aFrance + Minoan" model proposed by Raveanne et al. 2022.

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Beaker_Iberia:I6588:Olalde_2018,4.92,0,0,0,41.13,39.96,1.48,0,2.48,0,10.03,0
Beaker_Iberia:I6589:Olalde_2018,5.96,0,0,0,60.18,17.7,14.09,0,2.06,0,0,0
Beaker_Iberia:I6622:Olalde_2018,0,0,0,0,73.85,2.92,0.98,0,18.03,0,4.22,0
Minoan_Lasithi:I0070:Lazaridis_2017,0,0,0.62,0.55,37.53,0,0,0,15.52,0,45.7,0.09
Minoan_Lasithi:I0071:Lazaridis_2017,1.16,0,2.96,0,37.9,0.23,0,0,13.01,0,44.59,0.15
Minoan_Lasithi:I0073:Lazaridis_2017,0,0.05,2.92,0.4,36.38,0,0,0,13.48,0,46.7,0.07
Minoan_Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017,0.58,0,4.33,0,39.44,0,0,0,12.45,0,43.19,0
Minoan_Lasithi:I9005:Lazaridis_2017,1.52,0,5.68,0,37.33,0,0,0,16.14,0,39.25,0.08

 

[Palermo Trapani]

Jovialis: Thanks for the Coordinates. My model with 2 way admixture using Bell Beaker + Minoan. I also included the Early Bronze Age sample from the Yu et al 2022 paper "Genomic and dietary discontinuitiesduring the Mesolithic and Neolithic in Sicily". Regarding UZZ57:

"The fourth and youngest group includes one individual (UZZ57) dated to 4,150–3,970 cal BP and is attributedto the Early Bronze Age (Uzzo EBA). This individual is displaced from the Early Neolithic toward the directionof individuals associated with the Bell Beaker phenomenon and other Late Neolithic and BA groups thatcarry the so-called ‘‘steppe’’-related ancestry. This ancestry was characteristic for the steppe-nomadsfrom western Eurasia and spread across Europe during the Bronze Age (Haak et al., 2015). A similar shiftwas also found in published Early Bronze Age individuals from Sicily (Fernandes et al., 2020). This individualUZZ57 carried the Y-haplogroup R1b1a1b1a1a2, commonly found in Bronze Age Europe, and also previously reported in Sicilian Bronze Age individuals (Data S1.4, Data S5.2) (Fernandes et al., 2020)."

 

[Palermo Trapani]

Jovialis: Using the Dodecad12B coordinates from your post #136 for the Bronze Age Sicilians from Fernandes et al 2020. Model fit exceptionally well using Bell Beaker + Minoan.

 

[torzio]

my data

Target: ScallywagK12b
Distance: 0.1593% / 0.15926943
64.9 Beaker_Central_Europe
31.2 Minoan_Lasithi
3.9 Beaker_Iberia



Distance to: ScallywagK12b
4.00830259 Beaker_Central_Europe:E09538:Olalde_2018
4.69245844 Beaker_Central_Europe:I4885:Olalde_2018
8.89654427 Beaker_Central_Europe:I3597:Olalde_2018
10.25450633 Beaker_Central_Europe:I6534:Olalde_2018
10.48019561 Beaker_Central_Europe:I5660:Olalde_2018
10.68236865 Beaker_Central_Europe:I5529:Olalde_2018
10.76399090 Beaker_Central_Europe:I4890:Olalde_2018
11.40698032 Beaker_Central_Europe:I4886:Olalde_2018
11.96139624 Beaker_Central_Europe:I2364:Olalde_2018
12.73283158 Beaker_Central_Europe:I7044:Olalde_2018
13.33209286 Beaker_Central_Europe:I4252:Olalde_2018
13.42154611 Beaker_Central_Europe:I5022:Olalde_2018
14.04656898 Beaker_Central_Europe:I3588:Olalde_2018
14.07831666 Beaker_Central_Europe:I7275:Olalde_2018
14.42833670 Beaker_Central_Europe:I7289:Olalde_2018
14.78082542 Beaker_Central_Europe:I6581:Olalde_2018
14.82757566 Beaker_Central_Europe:I4887:Olalde_2018
15.45545535 Beaker_Central_Europe:I3604:Olalde_2018
16.10682464 Beaker_Central_Europe:I4253:Olalde_2018
16.41149597 Beaker_Central_Europe:I5835:Olalde_2018
16.44987234 Beaker_Central_Europe:I4888:Olalde_2018
18.20596118 Beaker_Iberia:I6588:Olalde_2018
18.46969376 Beaker_Central_Europe:I7269:Olalde_2018
18.54500499 Beaker_Central_Europe:I5755:Olalde_2018
18.81048848 Beaker_Central_Europe:I4889:Olalde_2018

 

[Vallicanus]

@Jovialis

What percentages of Beaker_Central_Europe, Beaker_Iberia and Minoan_Lasithi would the Iron Age Latin, Daunian and Etruscan samples have?