K12b Analyzing the Mediterranean Cluster C6 from Antonio M et al. 2019

[Poxy]

The sample named Piedmont on G25 is most likely from Val Borbera. It's Piedmont but being it's area linguistically transitional from Ligurian language to Piedmontese is not really representative of Piedmont. The problem was created by Raveane and Capelli (or Cappelli?) who only released a small part of the samples from northern Italy (and did not release samples from Emilia, Piedmont and just one from Liguria). To solve the problem Davidski a few days later uploaded to the G25 the only set of samples that had previously been released from Piedmont, namely the Val Borbera set.

Based on the private results I have seen, there are indeed 100 per cent Piedmontese (from eastern Piedmont, usually) who have results like that sample from Val Borbera, and others who go further north genetically and come closer to results more typical of the linguistically Italian northern Alps.

In northern Italy everywhere there is genetically the dichotomy between the Alps and the Po Valley (with the Apennines possibly in between, depending on the area). With those in the Po Valley being underrepresented both in studies and consequently in amateur calculators.

I would like to know the exact definition of Po Valley. Is it okay if I ask a few questions I have?

HGDP samples of the Bergamo are the Po Valley? or the Alps?
The metropolitan area of Milan, which accounts for a third of northern Italy's population, is the Po Valley?

Geneticists, and particularly Italian ones, have never shown much capacity for accuracy, unfortunately. I don't think we will have much more accurate samples in the future than we do today. More samples but not necessarily more accurate.

That's so sad

 

[Pax Augusta]

I would like to know the exact definition of Po Valley. Is it okay if I ask a few questions I have?

HGDP samples of the Bergamo are the Po Valley? or the Alps?
The metropolitan area of Milan, which accounts for a third of northern Italy's population, is the Po Valley?

HGDP samples from Bergamo, according to CEPH coordinates, are most likely Prealps and Alps, not Po Valley.

Their CEPH coordinates pointed, if I remember correctly, to the Seriana Valley

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Val_Seriana




The exact definition of Po Valley? it's simple, it's the vast plains of northern Italy. You'd have to ask Stuvanè who lives there, but yes, the metropolitan area of Milan is Po Valley, one of the northernmost areas (so much so that from Milan you can easily see the Alps north of Milan). The population of the metropolitan area of Milan may be a third of northern Italy's population, but it is also one of the most demographically modified areas in the whole of Italy. I don't know how many can be those who have all local ancestors there. Then there would be a piece of plain in north-eastern Italy that even though it is in complete continuity with the Po Valley is not considered as such because it is not part of the hydrographic basin of the Po River, I believe.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Po_Valley

 

[Poxy]

HGDP samples of the Bergamo, according to CEPH coordinates, are most likely Prealps and Alps, not Po Valley.

Their CEPH coordinates pointed, if I remember correctly, to the Seriana Valley



The exact definition of Po Valley? it's simple, it's the vast plains of northern Italy. You'd have to ask Stuvanè who lives there, but yes, the metropolitan area of Milan is Po Valley, one of the northernmost areas (so much so that from Milan you can easily see the Alps north of Milan). The population of the metropolitan area of Milan may have a third of northern Italy's population, but it is also one of the most demographically modified areas in the whole of Italy. I don't know how many can be those who have all local ancestors there. Then there would be a piece of plain in north-eastern Italy that even though it is in complete continuity with the Po Valley is not considered as such because it is not part of the hydrographic basin of the Po River, I believe.

Thank you for your prompt reply.:awesome:

 

[Er Monnezza]

1) The link I posted unambiguously stated that "the medieval Roman dialect belonged to the southern family of Italian dialects", you say that "it has very southern features, but I think it is a stretch to ascribe it directly to the southern group": it is again the old problem of "dialect continuum"

And mine stated something else. But I agree that the classification of Italian dialects/languages is often ambiguous. The main feature used by linguists to separate the languages of the Neapolitan group from the Central and Sicilian ones is the presence of schwa in words, such as in "liettə" (bed).

but let us focus on the important point: the dialect spoken in Latium was " closer to Neapolitan than to Tuscan" but afterwards underwent a "tuscanization" caused by a large numbers of immigrants from Tuscany (or speakers of Tuscan dialects)

[...]

I guess it isn't the contentious point, but I get that your insistence that the medieval Roman dialect was a member of the central group depends on the implicit suggestion, opposed to mine, that medieval Romans while not being as northern as modern ones were still more northern than modern Campanians/Sicilians, whereas it is the suggestion implicit in my claim; well, whatever was the category the medieval Roman dialct belonged to, genetically the inhabitants looked Sicilian-like.

The point is that in this case the language has nothing to do with autosomal DNA, they are two things disconnected from each other; and the shift from Medieval Romanesque to modern Romanesque from the 15th century onwards does not imply a mass migration from Tuscany to Rome.

3)"A genetic probe into the ancient and medieval history of southern Europe and west Asia", figure 3, A (which I had already posted), you can clearly see that Levant_N decreases from the BA to the Byzantine period.

The models I posted come from supplementary file number 5 of the Southern Arc paper itself.

The genetic samples from the medieval and renaissance period show a tight cluster of individuals with Sicilians and a sizeable chunk of them that form a cloud from Sicily to north Italy (and a bit more northern), so the natural inference is that the modern Romans formed as a mix of north Italians and southern Italians

For the sake of clarity, once I exclude the samples plotting north of Tuscany and south of Calabria/Campania, I obtain the following averages.

ITA_Chiusi_MA_(N=5),0.117238,0.1533446,-0.000377,-0.0306204,0.02025,-0.0151716,0.0019272,-0.002123,0.003395,0.0223056,-0.0003246,0.0095314,-0.0119524,0.000055,-0.0057276,-0.0045876,-0.002999,0.0027872,0.0015084,0.0019512,-0.004068,-0.0016816,0.001553,0.004579,0.0027542
ITA_Gavorrano_MA_(N=1),0.112685,0.148267,0.009051,-0.029393,0.023389,-0.016733,-0.00705,-0.003,0.013703,0.031527,0.009094,0.004946,-0.013677,0,-0.002307,-0.001591,0.001956,-0.002027,0.006285,-0.002376,-0.000998,-0.002968,-0.001972,-0.005543,0.009221
ITA_Manciano_Late_Antiquity_(N=1),0.091058,0.150298,0.004903,-0.050711,0.036314,-0.030957,0.00141,-0.003923,0.028633,0.030069,0.00406,0.003897,-0.008771,-0.002202,-0.007736,-0.001591,0.011995,-0.008235,-0.008045,-0.003752,-0.011105,-0.001731,0.013804,0.001928,0.010179
ITA_Montelanico_MA_(N=10),0.1092702,0.1466425,-0.0074668,-0.0413117,0.0147718,-0.0160362,0.0004465,-0.0056305,0.0037836,0.0188613,0.001104,0.002203,-0.0072099,-0.0009082,-0.0091203,-0.004203,-0.0025426,0.0002786,0.0010434,-0.006053,0.0010731,0.003054,-0.0014421,0.0004939,0.0001435
ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_(N=10),0.1083596,0.1512123,-0.0031301,-0.0373388,0.0177877,-0.0157016,-0.001739,-0.0053075,0.0044996,0.0219777,0.0008118,0.0047508,-0.0080277,-0.0002064,-0.0074917,-0.002095,0.0026077,0.0002408,0.0026273,-0.0020759,-0.00146,0.0009645,0.0022183,-0.0005784,-0.0006706
ITA_Rome_MA_(N=4),0.11183125,0.15055225,0.00509125,-0.0343995,0.0262355,-0.0114345,-0.00111625,-0.00080775,0.01222025,0.027654,0.0013805,0.00494575,-0.01196725,0.0003785,-0.0065485,-0.00215475,-0.00198825,-0.00072825,0.00248225,-0.005659,0.00171575,0.0061825,-0.00234175,0.0031935,-0.00005975
ITA_Tarquinia_MA_(N=4),0.10756275,0.1472515,0.00197975,-0.02785875,0.02431225,-0.0159665,0.00052875,-0.0028845,0.00797625,0.01986375,0.00426275,0.00861725,-0.01140975,-0.001101,-0.00118725,-0.00474,-0.00195575,0.000063,0.002074,-0.00409575,0.0009045,0.00451325,-0.00252675,-0.00015075,0.003802
ITA_Tivoli_Early_Modern_(N=3),0.11154667,0.14555933,0.00025133333,-0.033053667,0.015284667,-0.010412,-0.0032116667,-0.0024613333,0.0053176667,0.019985333,0.00064966667,0.0039463333,-0.0092666667,-0.0075693333,-0.0033476667,0.0065413333,0.01356,0.00084466667,0.002179,0.0017923333,-0.0024123333,0.0012773333,0.0011093333,0.0057433333,-0.0013573333

These are the individual samples.

ITA_Chiusi_MA:ETR003___AD_1073___Coverage_22.58%,0.111547,0.1635,0.008297,-0.026809,0.017542,-0.01757,0,-0.005307,0.000409,0.016583,0.005359,0.005695,-0.004757,-0.009771,0.003664,0.000928,-0.004042,0.009755,0.002011,0.003752,0.003993,-0.000618,-0.005053,-0.007953,0.007544
ITA_Chiusi_MA:ETR007___AD_862___Coverage_46.76%,0.119514,0.148267,0.005657,-0.012274,0.029852,-0.005578,-0.004935,-0.008077,0.003681,0.010023,0.002598,0.013038,-0.017988,0.00578,-0.000679,-0.000398,0.000391,-0.00114,-0.000503,0.011756,0.004367,-0.004451,0.00493,-0.001084,0.001317
ITA_Chiusi_MA:ETR010___AD_950___Coverage_57.27%,0.121791,0.152329,0.008297,-0.035853,0.017234,-0.015618,-0.00047,0.000231,0.010226,0.03262,-0.002273,0.012589,-0.014123,-0.004817,-0.002579,-0.013922,-0.007041,0.005701,0.002137,-0.006628,-0.006364,-0.006059,0.006532,0.00964,-0.002515
ITA_Chiusi_MA:ETR013___AD_968___Coverage_55.68%,0.117238,0.150298,-0.000377,-0.037791,0.022158,-0.01506,0.00188,-0.003,0.008795,0.0277,-0.007307,0.014237,-0.013082,0.000826,-0.010315,-0.013524,-0.003912,0.000253,0.00264,-0.006503,-0.009858,-0.000866,-0.002958,0.007712,0.009221
ITA_Chiusi_MA:ETR014___AD_1006___Coverage_30.15%,0.1161,0.152329,-0.023759,-0.040375,0.014464,-0.022032,0.013161,0.005538,-0.006136,0.024602,0,0.002098,-0.009812,0.008257,-0.018729,0.003978,-0.000391,-0.000633,0.001257,0.007379,-0.012478,0.003586,0.004314,0.01458,-0.001796
ITA_Gavorrano_MA:POP001___AD_861___Coverage_69.71%,0.112685,0.148267,0.009051,-0.029393,0.023389,-0.016733,-0.00705,-0.003,0.013703,0.031527,0.009094,0.004946,-0.013677,0,-0.002307,-0.001591,0.001956,-0.002027,0.006285,-0.002376,-0.000998,-0.002968,-0.001972,-0.005543,0.009221
ITA_Manciano_Late_Antiquity:MAS003___AD_465___unknown_coverage,0.091058,0.150298,0.004903,-0.050711,0.036314,-0.030957,0.00141,-0.003923,0.028633,0.030069,0.00406,0.003897,-0.008771,-0.002202,-0.007736,-0.001591,0.011995,-0.008235,-0.008045,-0.003752,-0.011105,-0.001731,0.013804,0.001928,0.010179
ITA_Montelanico_MA:R52___AD_1355___Coverage_53.43%,0.102441,0.147252,-0.001508,-0.046189,0.017542,-0.01004,-0.00799,-0.007154,0.004704,0.027882,0.008444,0.000899,-0.009068,-0.007019,-0.01045,-0.016309,-0.008084,0.004561,0.003142,-0.012881,-0.001123,0.011994,-0.00037,-0.010122,0.002275
ITA_Montelanico_MA:R53___AD_1355___Coverage_75.73%,0.111547,0.147252,-0.011691,-0.041667,0.014156,-0.022032,-0.001645,-0.011538,0.009817,0.020957,0.001461,0.001049,-0.003122,0.008533,-0.011129,-0.0118,-0.009518,-0.00266,-0.000628,-0.005628,0.007986,-0.000124,0.002095,-0.004338,-0.002395
ITA_Montelanico_MA:R54___AD_1355___Coverage_60.26%,0.113823,0.145221,-0.015839,-0.04199,0.018157,-0.013666,0.003055,-0.005538,0.008999,0.017677,-0.002761,0.004946,-0.005054,-0.000413,-0.004614,0.001856,0.004563,-0.003801,0.010182,-0.007504,0.000125,0.006677,0.001972,0.003253,-0.000718
ITA_Montelanico_MA:R56___AD_1355___Coverage_62.53%,0.106994,0.14319,-0.006788,-0.051357,0.014156,-0.016733,-0.00094,-0.008307,-0.003272,0.014032,0.001299,0.003897,-0.008176,0.00289,-0.017372,-0.000265,0.004172,-0.00266,0.00088,-0.008129,-0.000749,0,-0.005176,0.00735,0.003592
ITA_Montelanico_MA:R57___AD_1355___Coverage_72.46%,0.112685,0.150298,-0.012822,-0.031008,0.016311,-0.015897,-0.003525,0.000923,-0.000614,0.021868,0.001461,0.003447,-0.011298,-0.001651,-0.012079,-0.00769,-0.007562,-0.001014,0.003645,-0.003001,0.003494,0.003586,-0.003821,-0.002651,0.000718
ITA_Montelanico_MA:R58___AD_1100___Coverage_81.82%,0.10927,0.150298,-0.010559,-0.046189,0.016003,-0.016455,-0.00141,-0.006461,0.001227,0.016401,-0.004872,0.001798,-0.013379,-0.006055,-0.001357,0.000796,0.004172,-0.002154,-0.001885,-0.003752,0.004367,0.005935,0.000616,0.005663,0.000718
ITA_Montelanico_MA:R59___AD_905___Coverage_79.06%,0.10927,0.148267,-0.003771,-0.037468,0.01908,-0.013108,0.002585,-0.003,0.003272,0.02041,0.001299,-0.004946,-0.003122,-0.000275,-0.013708,-0.017767,-0.010952,0.004307,-0.001885,-0.006128,0.005241,0.004699,-0.009737,-0.010483,0.001796
ITA_Montelanico_MA:R60___AD_905___Coverage_87.24%,0.10927,0.145221,0.00528,-0.028101,0.009848,-0.009761,0.00799,-0.005077,0.012067,0.010023,-0.003573,-0.001948,-0.00446,0.003028,-0.002443,-0.007027,-0.015255,0.002027,-0.00088,-0.004627,-0.00836,-0.00371,-0.002835,0.004699,0.000479
ITA_Montelanico_MA:R64___AD_1110___Coverage_88.28%,0.105855,0.142174,-0.004148,-0.041344,0.009232,-0.02259,0.004465,-0.005769,-0.000409,0.01877,0.007145,0.008692,-0.005946,-0.006193,-0.006786,0.003182,-0.00326,0.003927,0.000754,-0.007754,0.000998,-0.001237,0.000493,0.003615,-0.002515
ITA_Montelanico_MA:R65___AD_1110___Coverage_88.58%,0.111547,0.147252,-0.012822,-0.047804,0.013233,-0.02008,0.00188,-0.004384,0.002045,0.020593,0.001137,0.004196,-0.008474,-0.001927,-0.011265,0.012994,0.016298,0.000253,-0.002891,-0.001126,-0.001248,0.00272,0.002342,0.007953,-0.002515
ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:R32___AD_500___Coverage_53.38%,0.101303,0.155376,-0.007542,-0.044574,0.021542,-0.019243,-0.00376,-0.007154,0.002863,0.023326,-0.001137,0.003297,-0.008028,-0.006331,-0.002036,-0.004773,0.005867,-0.003294,-0.005782,0.003877,0.002121,-0.004081,0.003451,-0.011568,-0.000359
ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:R35___AD_500___Coverage_50.76%,0.103579,0.150298,-0.011314,-0.046189,0.013541,-0.020638,0.00047,-0.008769,0.006954,0.021868,0.00341,0.002847,0.000149,-0.002064,-0.010179,-0.001724,0.008605,0.0019,0.000754,0.000125,-0.008235,-0.00136,0.002711,-0.010965,0.002395
ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:R36___AD_500___Coverage_74.85%,0.114961,0.15436,0.003017,-0.022287,0.022773,-0.008925,0.00658,-0.003692,0.001023,0.018224,0.008931,0.001649,-0.008474,-0.009909,-0.001357,0.002784,0.002347,-0.000633,0.002263,-0.003126,0.003119,0.001484,-0.001356,0.005061,-0.000958
ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:R107___AD_500___Coverage_80.22%,0.119514,0.149283,-0.004525,-0.031654,0.022773,-0.02008,-0.00893,-0.004615,0.010226,0.021322,-0.000325,0.005545,-0.00223,0.00578,-0.007872,-0.007425,0.009127,-0.00038,-0.000251,0.007504,-0.003993,-0.001607,0.010106,0.00012,-0.00012
ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:R117___AD_500___Coverage_65.46%,0.104717,0.150298,-0.014708,-0.039406,0.011694,-0.015897,-0.00329,-0.01223,0.003272,0.014032,-0.00341,0.010341,-0.013082,0.003853,-0.013843,0.003845,0.004303,0.006841,0.003897,-0.014757,-0.005116,-0.000495,-0.005669,0.005543,-0.00491
ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:R118___AD_500___Coverage_51.56%,0.108132,0.145221,0.003771,-0.033915,0.020619,-0.022311,-0.002115,0.003461,0.001227,0.023144,-0.004872,-0.000899,-0.017096,-0.006055,0.000814,0.009016,0.020861,-0.00152,0.006788,0.006128,-0.003369,0.004451,0.001232,0.002771,0.001557
ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:R120___AD_500___Coverage_44.44%,0.108132,0.153345,0.012068,-0.03876,0.016926,-0.011435,-0.0047,-0.010615,0.009613,0.023144,-0.000162,0.005845,-0.005054,0.000413,-0.009908,-0.004508,-0.011995,0.007095,0.001257,-0.000375,0.000374,0.010758,0.002095,-0.003976,0.003233
ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:R121___AD_500___Coverage_49.71%,0.112685,0.151314,0.000754,-0.031331,0.020927,-0.007251,0.00235,-0.003692,0.005727,0.024602,-0.004872,0.01079,-0.009663,0.001239,-0.013029,-0.006232,-0.008996,0,0.007668,-0.009004,0.001622,0,0.006039,0.000482,-0.011735
ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:R122___AD_500___Coverage_78.75%,0.102441,0.153345,0.000377,-0.044574,0.016003,-0.019801,-0.00235,0.000231,0.004909,0.031891,0.003085,0.006894,-0.013231,0.006331,-0.0095,-0.010077,-0.007432,-0.007601,0.003897,-0.005378,-0.001248,-0.005564,0.003574,0.005784,0.000239
ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:R136___AD_400___Coverage_86.69%,0.108132,0.149283,-0.013199,-0.040698,0.011079,-0.011435,-0.001645,-0.006,-0.000818,0.018224,0.00747,0.001199,-0.003568,0.004679,-0.008007,-0.001856,0.00339,0,0.005782,-0.005753,0.000125,0.006059,0,0.000964,0.003952
ITA_Rome_MA:R1283___AD_855___Coverage_69.04%,0.108132,0.152329,0,-0.036822,0.028313,-0.009203,0.00141,0.006692,0.01309,0.024966,-0.000162,-0.001199,-0.014866,-0.000688,-0.012622,0.002652,0.001956,-0.007855,0.001131,-0.0005,0.006239,0.003339,-0.003574,-0.000602,-0.00012
ITA_Rome_MA:R1285___AD_1015___Coverage_66.72%,0.112685,0.151314,0.008297,-0.030362,0.027082,-0.011156,-0.004465,-0.004154,0.020248,0.034989,-0.005034,0.004796,-0.015312,0.003991,0,-0.01074,-0.00691,0.005448,0.009176,-0.008504,0.002496,0.010881,-0.003821,-0.004217,-0.001197
ITA_Rome_MA:R1287___AD_1425___Coverage_71.54%,0.118376,0.155376,0.012445,-0.028747,0.031698,-0.01004,-0.002115,-0.002308,0.007567,0.028793,0.004222,0.008243,-0.014866,-0.001651,-0.007465,-0.008221,-0.004824,0.001774,0.004399,-0.011756,0.000873,0.00272,-0.002958,0.006748,0.000479
ITA_Rome_MA:R1290___AD_1348___Coverage_70.05%,0.108132,0.14319,-0.000377,-0.041667,0.017849,-0.015339,0.000705,-0.003461,0.007976,0.021868,0.006496,0.007943,-0.002825,-0.000138,-0.006107,0.00769,0.001825,-0.00228,-0.004777,-0.001876,-0.002745,0.00779,0.000986,0.010845,0.000599
ITA_Tarquinia_MA:TAQ003___AD_841___Coverage_61.68%,0.097888,0.144205,-0.00792,-0.027778,0.013541,-0.017012,0.001175,-0.012692,0.006749,0.018224,0.002761,0.006444,-0.001189,-0.003991,-0.000407,-0.005569,0.005998,0.00266,-0.001508,-0.001251,0.004617,0.002349,-0.006039,0.007109,0.007185
ITA_Tarquinia_MA:TAQ009___AD_978___Coverage_73.49%,0.108132,0.137096,0.001508,-0.037791,0.030467,-0.01506,-0.00047,0,0.011044,0.02041,0.007307,0.008542,-0.015461,0.007844,0.002036,-0.011005,-0.013299,0.006714,0.004399,-0.006003,-0.006239,0.007296,-0.004314,0.001325,-0.001676
ITA_Tarquinia_MA:TAQ011___AD_959___Coverage_66.23%,0.10927,0.157407,0.00792,-0.029393,0.027082,-0.011156,-0.002585,0.006231,0.007567,0.015672,0.006333,0.01154,-0.012339,-0.002202,-0.000271,-0.005436,-0.012126,-0.002534,-0.002514,-0.01038,0.000873,-0.002597,0.001232,-0.00494,0.007903
ITA_Tarquinia_MA:TAQ022___AD_1091___Coverage_51.91%,0.114961,0.150298,0.006411,-0.016473,0.026159,-0.020638,0.003995,-0.005077,0.006545,0.025149,0.00065,0.007943,-0.01665,-0.006055,-0.006107,0.00305,0.011604,-0.006588,0.007919,0.001251,0.004367,0.011005,-0.000986,-0.004097,0.001796
ITA_Tivoli_Early_Modern:R969___AD_1650___Coverage_92.48%,0.113823,0.148267,0,-0.0323,0.01231,-0.012271,-0.000705,0.000231,0.006749,0.022962,0.006496,0.004796,-0.008771,-0.012386,-0.004479,0.011933,0.013821,0.004941,-0.000251,0.004377,-0.003369,0.001607,-0.001232,0.005663,-0.001437
ITA_Tivoli_Early_Modern:R970___AD_1650___Coverage_49.54%,0.10927,0.14319,0.003394,-0.024225,0.023081,-0.000837,-0.00423,-0.004846,0.007772,0.015308,0.001137,0.001948,-0.007433,-0.005092,-0.00095,0.002387,0.015776,-0.006461,0.000126,0.004752,-0.005615,0.003462,0.000246,0.00494,0.001796
ITA_Tivoli_Early_Modern:R973___AD_1650___Coverage_69.60%,0.111547,0.145221,-0.00264,-0.042636,0.010463,-0.018128,-0.0047,-0.002769,0.001432,0.021686,-0.005684,0.005095,-0.011596,-0.00523,-0.004614,0.005304,0.011083,0.004054,0.006662,-0.003752,0.001747,-0.001237,0.004314,0.006627,-0.004431

Models with averages and closest Italian populations

PCA with averages and closest Italian populations

 

[Er Monnezza]

Northern Sardinians are not so distant from Iron Age Rome Latins, at least according to Vahaduo/G25 (i don't know how to use other calculators).

I don't know if its due to direct Latin or Corsican ancestry

Modern Central Italians are closer to IA Central Italians than Sardinians are.

Distance to: Italy_Center_IA
0.04562886 Italian_Tuscany
0.05430200 Italian_Umbria
0.05513458 Italian_Marche
0.06105049 Sardinian_North
0.06359715 Sardinian

 

[Angela]

That's for sure, even if I think north western Tuscany could be an exception.
Anyway, I just wanted to point out that a strong continuity in the area since the Iron Age is not surprising at all. The considerations on the dialect were just an additional starting point of reflection that I find quite interesting, since I came roughly from that region.

Obviously, we're going to have to wait for ancient dna from the area to know how much continuity from the Iron Age is present. I sincerely hope that there will be samples from the area called Lunezia, which is the area from which all my ancestors, with a few exceptions, come.

I sincerely doubt it will ever become a political reality, but the proposed borders are below:

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunezia

[FONT=&quot]The idea of creating a region that would incorporate areas of Liguria,
Tuscany, Emilia-Romagna and Lombardy was first discussed in the 1800s by the
founding fathers of the Italian Republic. To be called Lunezia, a name coined
in 1989 by magistrate Alberto Grassi and based on the names of the areas of
‘Luni’ or ‘Lunigiana’ and ‘Spezia,’ the proposed region would have incorporated
the provinces of La Spezia, Massa-Carrara, Parma, Piacenza, Reggio Emilia and
Mantova, as well as smaller parts of Cremona and Lucca.

So, there was since then a recognition of the historical ties between these areas.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Upon the unification of Italy, however, the areas that would have become Lunezia were incorporated into bordering[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]regions.

Polling at one point indicated about 45% of the population supported the idea of creating this new administrative unit.

There's a remarkable similarity between the borders of that region, and my ancestral area according to ancestrydna.

Anyway, as you will see, more than half of the region is mountainous, and mountains have always been a refuge.

In terms of yDna, the Garfagnana, the mountainous hinterland region of Lucca, has extremely high levels of R1b U-152. Everyone in my father's area in the Apennines has so far tested U-152, which is also his lineage.

Now, could some of that be Apuani (Celt-Ligure), as well as Etruscan, Italic and other Iron Age inhabitants of the region? I don't know. Maybe the Romans were right and they killed or exiled most of them, in eastern Liguria if not in the west. They need to do in depth testing of the lines before everyone with all four ancestors from this area are dead.

What has always surprised and annoyed me is that it's my understanding that all those samples from the Apennines taken by Cavalli-Sforza are still at Stanford. Why on earth haven't they been used? Why aren't they part of upcoming papers for a comparison? They can list them as contributors etc. but why not use such a wonderful resource?

My guess, although I hope it's an educated guess, is that those people may be close autosomally to the people of Val Borbera, but it would be good to know.[/FONT]

 

[Vallicanus]

Modern Central Italians are closer to IA Central Italians than Sardinians are.

Distance to: Italy_Center_IA
0.04562886 Italian_Tuscany
0.05430200 Italian_Umbria
0.05513458 Italian_Marche
0.06105049 Sardinian_North
0.06359715 Sardinian

It seems that at a distance of 4.5, the modern Tuscans are not radically different from Iron Age Central Italians.

 

[Jovialis]

Non-Tuscan central Italians are indeed Northern-shifted Southerners. Also, Southern Italians are indeed heterogenous. I could be as close to, or distant to people in Umbria, as I am to people in Puglia. My family comes from the same region, from the same province, from the same two towns; time in memorial:

Distance to:	Jovialis
3.19426048	UmbriaG06
3.38212951	Lazio:NOR28
3.39328749	Marche:MarABY030D
3.47597468	Marche:MarACO100D
3.80215728	Marche:MarACY030D
4.48544312	Marche:MarABP050D
4.48723746	UmbriaG04
4.49059016	UmbriaG15
4.50217725	Marche:MarABN020D
4.66113720	Lazio:NOR24
4.77789703	UmbriaG03
5.01162648	UmbriaG07
5.20982725	Marche:MarACW080D
5.54261671	LazioG30
5.67623995	Marche:MarABQ080D
5.76707031	Marche:MarABI020D
5.99716600	UmbriaG11
6.39048511	Marche:MarABG010D
6.42788457	Marche:MarADG030D
6.60829025	Marche:MarACV100D
6.97544264	Marche:MarADC050D
7.67540227	LazioG28
7.78398356	Marche:MarACW030D
8.48450352	UmbriaG12
8.67656614	Marche:MarABU050D
9.67978306	UmbriaG08

---

Distance to:	Jovialis
1.36923336	Abruzzo:15_Behar_2013
1.66129468	Abruzzo:16_Behar_2013
1.71953482	Abruzzo:20_Behar_2013
1.85132385	MoliseG26_Molise
1.94663813	Abruzzo:9_Behar_2013
2.16529444	Abruzzo:Alp140
2.71775643	Abruzzo:Alp090
2.73558038	Abruzzo:Alp616
2.75210828	Abruzzo:22_Behar_2013
2.82391572	Abruzzo:23_Behar_2013
3.32980480	MoliseG27
3.41641625	Abruzzo:17_Behar_2013
3.70070264	Abruzzo:Alp503
3.77326119	Abruzzo:ALP161
3.97039041	Abruzzo:19_Behar_2013
4.37315675	Abruzzo:Alp380
4.49109118	Abruzzo:Alp162
4.67142377	Abruzzo:14_Behar_2013
4.77744702	Abruzzo:13_Behar_2013
5.17125710	Abruzzo:ALP205
5.57361642	Abruzzo:21_Behar_2013

---

Distance to:	Jovialis
2.89611809	Apulia:cera1
2.91856129	Apulia:cera2
3.34511584	Apulia:cera8
3.49479613	Apuliau45
3.80621860	Apulia:cera9
3.92572286	Apulia:ALP583
4.45463803	Apulia:ALP379
4.52702993	Apulia:GS34
4.84129115	Apuliau2
5.32649040	Apulia:GS32
6.43630329	Apulia:GS47
6.95402042	Apuliau7
8.27652101	Apuliau3
8.99969444	Apuliau8

---

Distance to:	Jovialis
3.78219513	Sicily:TP04_Busby_2015
3.86023315	Campania:NaN212CR
3.93819756	Campania:NaN238DM
4.19687979	BasilicataG24
4.28499708	Sicily:TP06_Busby_2015
4.30936190	BasilicataG21
4.52765944	BasilicataG18
4.57330296	BasilicataG17
4.62709412	BasilicataG19
4.67279360	Sicily:SR48R_Busby_2015
4.96169326	Campania:NaN119AMR
5.08283386	Sicily:Ag-Sicily8_Behar_2013
5.08283386	Sicily:Ag-Sicily:8
5.10130375	BasilicataG25
5.13775243	Campania:NaN289RM
5.17302619	Campania:NaN293SF
5.21470996	Sicily:SR64_Busby_2015
5.21470996	Sicily:Siracusa:SR64_LazaridisNat2014
5.23111843	Sicily:SR60_Busby_2015
5.23111843	Sicily:Siracusa:SR60_LazaridisNat2014
5.24194620	Sicily:C-Sicily50_Behar_2013
5.24194620	Sicily:C-Sicily:50
5.26858615	Sicily:W-Sicily5a_Behar_2013
5.26858615	Sicily:W-Sicily:5a
5.27725307	Sicily:W-Sicily1_Behar_2013
5.27725307	Sicily:W-Sicily:1
5.31319113	Sicily:W-Sicily7_Behar_2013
5.35290575	Campania:NaN43TC
5.41809930	Sicily:W-Sicily4_Behar_2013
5.46488792	Sicily:TP08_Busby_2015
5.47620306	Sicily:SR44_Busby_2015
5.77688497	Campania:NaN128LA
5.87851172	Sicily:Ag-Sicily5_Behar_2013
5.87851172	Sicily:Ag-Sicily:5
5.96128342	Campania:NaN207MM
6.00906815	Campania:NaN58AC
6.07768048	Sicily:TP25_Busby_2015
6.09664662	Sicily:W-Sicily3_Behar_2013
6.09664662	Sicily:W-Sicily:3
6.19121959	BasilicataG20
6.19574854	Sicily:C-Sicily57_Behar_2013
6.35270808	BasilicataG16
6.47576250	Campania:NaN46TC
6.66920535	Sicily:W-Sicily9_Behar_2013
6.66920535	Sicily:W-Sicily:9
6.67492322	Sicily:W-Sicily5b_Behar_2013
6.69049326	BasilicataG22
6.74104591	Sicily:SR23_Busby_2015
7.01009986	Sicily:E-Sicily18_Behar_2013
7.01009986	Sicily:E-Sicily:18
7.01981481	Sicily:TP05_Busby_2015
7.01981481	Sicily:Trapani:TP05_LazaridisNat2014
7.08741843	Calabria:ALP596
7.10824873	Sicily:TP07_Busby_2015
7.10824873	Sicily:Trapani:TP07_LazaridisNat2014
7.63080599	Campania:NaN195ST
7.64138731	Sicily:W-Sicily21_Behar_2013
7.64138731	Sicily:W-Sicily:21
8.42525371	Campania:NaN65DFG
8.81372793	Campania:NaN77FAM
9.62319074	Campania:NaN275IS
9.91437340	Calabria:ALP582

 

[Jovialis]

The C6 cluster has existed in every period, since R437 in the Iron Age.

The most likely explanation for the expansion of that group in the imperial era is that southern Italian populations were included into Rome after the unification of the peninsula. The continued existence of it into the present is a testament that. Since foreign populations died away due to the urban graveyard effect.

 

[Wanderer]

Why on earth would I we need to do that, when they are already divided into clusters based on haplotypes in the paper?

Its interesting to note that sardinia seems to high farmer ancestry.
While maros culture has high nealithic agean ancestry.

 

[Stuvanè]

I would like to know the exact definition of Po Valley. Is it okay if I ask a few questions I have?

HGDP samples of the Bergamo are the Po Valley? or the Alps?
The metropolitan area of Milan, which accounts for a third of northern Italy's population, is the Po Valley?



That's so sad

Sorry, I can only answer you now at the request of Pax.


On the one hand, there is a very 'enlarged' meaning of the Po Valley ( sometimes said 'Padania'), which often has more of a cultural/anthropological meaning equivalent to northern Italy (the Italian territory north of the approximate La Spezia-Rimini line), encompassing both the lowland areas and the surrounding Alpine and Apennine arcs.


Strictly speaking - as geographers - the Po Valley should be distinguished from the surrounding mountainous/hilly areas and would be the territory that hosts the Po river basin below 300 (max. 400) metres in altitude.
The Val Seriana from which the Bergamo samples are taken is already above this limit, so to be rigorous, its populations are not 'Po Valley' in the strict sense of the word - even though they are immediate neighbours - but would already fall within what we can call pre-alpine and even alpine to all intents and purposes. And usually in the autosomal calculators you find around, the difference is detectable, with lowland populations (and in particular those of the 'Lower' plain) often becoming Tuscan-like in the results or very close to them (perhaps with a more northern and/or eastern cline).


Here I did a quick trick with the old k13 coordinates of modern peoples and an ADC coefficient adjusted to 0.5, without pretending to be scientific, using my own data and those of a mutual friend of mine and Pax's, who is originally from Val Camonica (upper Lombardy in the Brescia area, in practice a valley parallel and more easterly to Val Seriana). I, on the other hand, come from Ferrara and Romagna, so I am mostly located in the lower plain and its eastern/southeastern edge, on the Adriatic coast. You will see that even though we are both northern Italians, we are quite different, and my friend's Mesolithic elevation from Valcamonica, evidently better preserved from later invasions, draws him into a cline closer to southwestern Europe. On the other hand, it is evident that the lowland populations assimilated different influences in both the protohistoric, historic and medieval periods, creating a certain variability in the northern Italian group.

https://imgur.com/a/pc1syJu

Milan and its province are located in the middle of the Po Valley, being at an altitude of about 120 metres above sea level, but its population has undergone major demographic changes in the last century (mainly with internal migrations from southern Italy), which does not make it an ideal place to recover indigenous DNA.

 

[Vallicanus]

Sorry, I can only answer you now at the request of Pax.


On the one hand, there is a very 'enlarged' meaning of the Po Valley ( sometimes said 'Padania'), which often has more of a cultural/anthropological meaning equivalent to northern Italy (the Italian territory north of the approximate La Spezia-Rimini line), encompassing both the lowland areas and the surrounding Alpine and Apennine arcs.


Strictly speaking - as geographers - the Po Valley should be distinguished from the surrounding mountainous/hilly areas and would be the territory that hosts the Po river basin below 300 (max. 400) metres in altitude.
The Val Seriana from which the Bergamo samples are taken is already above this limit, so to be rigorous, its populations are not 'Po Valley' in the strict sense of the word - even though they are immediate neighbours - but would already fall within what we can call pre-alpine and even alpine to all intents and purposes. And usually in the autosomal calculators you find around, the difference is detectable, with lowland populations (and in particular those of the 'Lower' plain) often becoming Tuscan-like in the results or very close to them (perhaps with a more northern and/or eastern cline).


Here I did a quick trick with the old k13 coordinates of modern peoples and an ADC coefficient adjusted to 0.5, without pretending to be scientific, using my own data and those of a mutual friend of mine and Pax's, who is originally from Val Camonica (upper Lombardy in the Brescia area, in practice a valley parallel and more easterly to Val Seriana). I, on the other hand, come from Ferrara and Romagna, so I am mostly located in the lower plain and its eastern/southeastern edge, on the Adriatic coast. You will see that even though we are both northern Italians, we are quite different, and my friend's Mesolithic elevation from Valcamonica, evidently better preserved from later invasions, draws him into a cline closer to southwestern Europe. On the other hand, it is evident that the lowland populations assimilated different influences in both the protohistoric, historic and medieval periods, creating a certain variability in the northern Italian group.

https://imgur.com/a/pc1syJu

View attachment 13594

Milan and its province are located in the middle of the Po Valley, being at an altitude of about 120 metres above sea level, but its population has undergone major demographic changes in the last century (mainly with internal migrations from southern Italy), which does not make it an ideal place to recover indigenous DNA.

How would you explain the 17pc "Romanian"...Balkan influence?

 

[Stuvanè]

How would you explain the 17pc "Romanian"...Balkan influence?

In every oracle I use that type of genetic component always comes up and not in small percentages.
The Adriatic is a sea that does not act as a barrier in this respect, quite the contrary.


I have no hard data at hand, but I can only speculate on a few facts (which are not mutually exclusive)


1) prehistoric/protohistoric influences from the middle and lower Danube that can often be found in the northern Italians (north-eastern): in the end, it always remains to be understood what the autosomal DNA of certain peoples of the Peninsula other than the Etruscans and Latins was: Italics, Umbrians, Picenes..;


2) influences of historical times: in the Roman age, Ravenna and all its environs hosted the discharged veteran classics of the imperial fleet, about half of whom were recruited in the Balkans, according to some accounts by Tacitus;


3) similar forms of military colonisation from the same regions in the late antique and exarchal age;


4) immigrations of agricultural, military and artisan labourers and/or servants of South Slavic or Albanian stock from the late Middle Ages until the middle of the 16th century (and possibly beyond), following the Black Death of the 14th century and/or the Ottoman expansion.


At home, the latter hypothesis is often rumoured because of some family hearsay that is, however, insufficiently documented

 

[Jovialis]

^^ R1 Protovillanovan clusters with Cetina. I think when we get more samples from Italic samples from the east coast we will see more of this trend.

 

[Francesco]

^^ R1 Protovillanovan clusters with Cetina. I think when we get more samples from Italic samples from the east coast we will see more of this trend.

In another post I hypothized that the second wave of proto-italics (assuming there actually were two wave of italic speaking people in the paeninsula) could have been a little bit more balkan shifted than the first one, due to more prolonged contacts with people from the cetina and vucedol cultures.

 

[torzio]

^^ R1 Protovillanovan clusters with Cetina. I think when we get more samples from Italic samples from the east coast we will see more of this trend.

we have discussed this in the past .....R1 sample is a woman...born in Liburnia and died in the Liburnian colony of Picene Italy ( martinscuro and tronto areas )



she was either from Nin or city as per link below

https://gohvarblog.com/2016/06/12/the-walls-of-asseria-ancient-liburnian-settlement-and-roman-town/

The last Liburnians in Picene died out or where absorbed into italian society by 440BC

 

[Jovialis]

we have discussed this in the past .....R1 sample is a woman...born in Liburnia and died in the Liburnian colony of Picene Italy ( martinscuro and tronto areas )

she was either from Nin or city as per link below
https://gohvarblog.com/2016/06/12/the-walls-of-asseria-ancient-liburnian-settlement-and-roman-town/
The last Liburnians in Picene died out or where absorbed into italian society by 440BC

The text doesn't definitively say that she is from there. However, it is clear that she died at the boarder of Le Marche and Abruzzo. Also the material culture indicates she was proto-villanovan.

Cetina is however attested to have existed in Italy.

Veneto in particular is close to Cetina in terms of genetic affinity, based on my analysis.

 

[Jovialis]

I think it is likely, these Northern Italian-like people mixed with southern southern sources, which gave rise to groups like C6.

I think the most imperative samples we need are the oscans, and Lucanians to really know. A good question IMO: Were they similar to Cetina/R1, but a bit more southern-eastern shifted?

If Italic Tribes in the south were more south-eastern, than they would fit well with a two way with "standard" 1:10 Minoan/Yamnaya Mycenaeans.

The Northern-Italian-like Cetina plus EIA Palace of Nestor makes for a fairly good fit. I get about 3.5+ with that.

 

[Jovialis]

Distance to:	GRC_Palace_of_Nestor_EIA:I19368
4.41243697	BasilicataG22
5.86587589	Athens:Greek_Athens_TLA018
5.96119116	Greece_F:GreeceF52k
5.98579986	Smyrna:GreeceSmyrna9
6.06666300	Campania:NaN289RM
6.10811755	Greece_F:GreeceF69k
6.37657432	BasilicataG20
6.54068039	Apulia:GS47
6.56834835	Athens:Greek_Athens_TLA012
6.57667849	Sicily:W-Sicily5b_Behar_2013
6.58770825	Athens:Greek_Athens_TLA024
6.69323539	Apulia:GS32
6.70374522	Greece_F:GreeceF36k
6.84857649	Apulia:ALP583
6.85011679	Apuliau7
6.89119003	Greece_Central:GreeceCentral8
7.00041427	Sicily:SR23_Busby_2015
7.12744695	Apuliau45
7.21500520	Apuliau3
7.21907889	Apulia:ALP379
7.29932874	BasilicataG16
7.31833314	Crete:Crete8
7.37885492	Sicily:W-Sicily1_Behar_2013
7.37885492	Sicily:W-Sicily:1
7.43930104	Abruzzo:ALP205

 

[Jovialis]

Distance to:	GRC_Palace_of_Nestor_EIA:I19368
6.14121324	C5:Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R69_ANAS
6.75556067	C5:Late_Antiquity_Eastern_Mediterranean:R32_Mausole_di_Augusto
6.96630462	C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R57_Villa_Magna
7.27677126	C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R58_Villa_Magna
7.29489548	C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R53_Villa_Magna
7.73488203	C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R59_Villa_Magna
7.76294403	C6:Imperial_Mediterranean:R125_Casale_del_Dolce
7.79598615	C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R973_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
7.89583434	C6:Imperial_Mediterranean:R49_Centocelle_Necropolis
8.01438082	C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R65_Villa_Magna
8.26848837	C5:Late_Antiquity_Eastern_Mediterranean:R122_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
8.61850335	C6:Imperial_Mediterranean:R436_Palestrina
8.79553864	C6:Imperial_Mediterranean:R136_Marcellino_&_Pietro
8.80618533	C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R56_Villa_Magna
8.85637059	C6:Imperial_Mediterranean:R51_Centocelle_Necropolis
9.00314945	C6:Imperial_Mediterranean:R836_Civitanova_Marche
9.18182444	C6:Imperial_Mediterranean:R1544_Necropolis_of_Monte_Agnese
9.21876347	C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R1290_Villa_Magna
9.36573008	C6:Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R35_Celio
9.38364535	C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R54_Villa_Magna
9.39797319	C5:Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R114_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis
9.43728775	C6:Imperial_Mediterranean:R137_Marcellino_&_Pietro
9.46988384	C5:Late_Antiquity_Eastern_Mediterranean:R30_Mausole_di_Augusto
9.88189253	C6:Imperial_Mediterranean:R131_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis
10.01655629	C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R64_Villa_Magna