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Thread: "Battle of Tollenzee" revisited

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    "Battle of Tollenzee" revisited



    Reality seems to always turn out to be different than the somewhat juvenile fantasies of agenda driven, ethnicity obsessed amateur pop geneticists would have it.

    See:
    https://www.archaeology.org/news/916...alley-massacre

    A massacre it was, but not a battle between a "northern" and a "southern" ethnic group. Looks more perhaps like the Native Americans raiding a huge trading caravan with women as well as men, animals and goods. They weren't even settlers, because there were no kinship ties.

    "MECKLENBURG-WEST POMERANIA, GERMANY—According to a report in The Times, new genetic and chemical analyses of an estimated 145 sets of human remains unearthed in what had been thought to be a Bronze Age battlefield in northern Germany’s Tollense River Valley suggest that the dead were not members of a local army, but had come from many different regions. In addition, few of the individuals shared kinship ties. Wear and tear on the bones of the lower body also shows that some of the dead had been used to carrying heavy loads. “The picture that is emerging does not necessarily correspond to the picture of a warrior, but rather to the picture of people who spent their lives transporting things,” said Detlef Jantzen, chief archaeologist for the state of Mecklenburg-West Pomerania. The remains of women have also been found among the bones, in addition to gold rings, cylinders made of bronze, and glass beads from Egypt and Mesopotamia. Jantzen and his team think the site could be the remains of a large caravan of merchants who were attacked by raiders. “These are luxury goods we have found here and they have a very long journey behind them,” he explained. "


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    I guess it was a dominant chieftain on this march into subdued territory, showing off strength and not caring too much for his or his company's protection, but with his guard and part of the army on his side. They just moved into a trap by the locals.

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    They were a group of merchants carrying trade goods who got massacred. Read the paper, although I'm sure you will still prefer your fantasy.

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    Makes perfect sense. There were no haplogroups associated with modern populations of the area, save the I2-M223 guys. There are two possibilities for the natives of the area, either Germanic (which would have been high in I1 and R1b-U106) or Baltic (high in R1a) and that is not the case with the dead here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Reality seems to always turn out to be different than the somewhat juvenile fantasies of agenda driven, ethnicity obsessed amateur pop geneticists would have it.

    See:
    https://www.archaeology.org/news/916...alley-massacre

    A massacre it was, but not a battle between a "northern" and a "southern" ethnic group. Looks more perhaps like the Native Americans raiding a huge trading caravan with women as well as men, animals and goods. They weren't even settlers, because there were no kinship ties.

    "MECKLENBURG-WEST POMERANIA, GERMANY—According to a report in The Times, new genetic and chemical analyses of an estimated 145 sets of human remains unearthed in what had been thought to be a Bronze Age battlefield in northern Germany’s Tollense River Valley suggest that the dead were not members of a local army, but had come from many different regions. In addition, few of the individuals shared kinship ties. Wear and tear on the bones of the lower body also shows that some of the dead had been used to carrying heavy loads. “The picture that is emerging does not necessarily correspond to the picture of a warrior, but rather to the picture of people who spent their lives transporting things,” said Detlef Jantzen, chief archaeologist for the state of Mecklenburg-West Pomerania. The remains of women have also been found among the bones, in addition to gold rings, cylinders made of bronze, and glass beads from Egypt and Mesopotamia. Jantzen and his team think the site could be the remains of a large caravan of merchants who were attacked by raiders. “These are luxury goods we have found here and they have a very long journey behind them,” he explained. "
    Thanks Angela, indeed it was food for the wildest genetic typology ;)

    May be in the end connected with this?


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    It could explain the vaste possible geographic origin of the diverse autosomal results. End?

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    If this was a caravan of merchants, where were they headed? I would think a trade route to invite such a caravan would be connecting major cites and caravans such as this would not be wondering aimlessly into the frontier. Were the valuables thrown in the river deliberately or dropped? If this was simple highway robbery, the best loot would have been transported away. The various weapons used, including spears, swords, knives, clubs, sickles, and bows and arrows suggest an organized large party was involved. Was this a sacrificial site or did the climactic finale of this violent episode occur in the river? Whether it was a massacre of non-combatants or a battle, something epic happened here, and that would affected the economies and relationships of all parties involved. As for tell-tale signs of an existence heavy, back-breaking lifting for those whose skeletal remains have been studies, this does not prove they were merchants or slaves. Roman soldiers worked skilled and non-skilled, laborious work when they were not engaged in military training, parade or combat. Even during military campaigns, soldiers engaged in a lot of back-breaking labor.

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    In such ancient times it would have to be imagined that the impulse to act would be rapid and what mentality should they have?


    The merchants would probably dump some of the loot into the river when they were docked.


    It is like trading with eggs from thousands of km, salmonellosis is served, it must have been one of the first chemical weapons that emerged in such remote times.
    Last edited by Carlos; 01-11-20 at 02:05.

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    We'll probably never know, but I somehow doubt that a group of warriors would deliberately take their bead bedecked women and their priceless foreign luxuries to the battlefield with them.

    I also sort of doubt that we know where all the great trading centers of Bronze Age Central and Eastern Europe were located.

    I read a James Michener book called "Caravans" once about Afghanistan and up into Central Asian and the yearly or twice yearly treks traders would make to temporary trading marts set up in the middle of nowhere. Marriages were also arranged to cement trading partnerships. I guess it was also a good way to prevent too much inbreeding.

    Maybe that's why their speculation resonates with me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    They were a group of merchants carrying trade goods who got massacred. Read the paper, although I'm sure you will still prefer your fantasy.
    They found way too much bodies of experienced warriors (proven by survived wounds and training, physical stress signals) and weapons, especially arrowheads per m2 in the excavated area. Since they were looted, especially those on higher ground, more weapons were presen. If this was just a regular trade caravan, this would be too much effort both for the guards protecting it and those attacking the group. This was much bigger than anything like that.

  11. #11
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    Well, obviously the raiders were armed and trained, and no large trading caravan would have ventured out without trained fighting men guarding them.

    I don't see the problem, but hey you're free to speculate as you wish.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Well, obviously the raiders were armed and trained, and no large trading caravan would have ventured out without trained fighting men guarding them.

    I don't see the problem, but hey you're free to speculate as you wish.
    Basically its a question of magnitude. Its too big for that. And if the caravan was quite diverse, more of the dead would have been males of different ages, females and so on. Not just males in best fighting age, trained, with stress markers and wounds from earlier fights, so like experienced, even professional and elite warriors. Doesn't fit, because arrows in particular don't make a difference if raining down on a group of people. It was a big battle for its time, no way around it.

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