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Thread: The Roopkund Lake Greeks again

  1. #1
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    The Roopkund Lake Greeks again



    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    dated 1805 / 1810, two of them are mtDNA H12 and H12a, and another one is Y T1a2 ...,

    I don't know where they're from, but I know a place where that combination resides (Lecce), ... :)

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    Ok, Greeks and a few Salentini? :)

    Seriously, I think Aegean Greeks with some mainland ones and maybe an Anatolian one makes the most sense. Armenian is silly. They're quite different.

    I don't see why it's such a surprise. Greek merchants went everywhere. There are reports they were in India for centuries.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I disagree with razib
    I don't think they were aegean or anatolian greeks
    I think they were south italians....
    As mention by salento some of them carried mtdna h12
    a mtdna type that is found in south italy and rare in aegean coast of anatolia....

    http://www.ianlogan.co.uk/sequences_..._sequences.htm

    Also one of individuals belong to e-fgc18401 this is an e-m84 branch who is found more in sicily calabria than aegean anatolia ..
    In anatolia e-fgc18401 is much more prevelent in south east turkey
    Sefhardi, aschenazi, mizrahi, bulgarian
    https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/E-Y62418/
    https://yfull.com/mtree/H3ap/
    Eurogenes k13 updated shortest distance:4.70345618 Greek_andros_island phenotype: east med with pontic vibe

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    Deleted by me.

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    ... if the dates are correct, there are two separate groups, I think they’re from the same place (matching haplogroups), ... probably common travel routes for these people, ... or a tragic rescue mission.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Ok, Greeks and a few Salentini? :)

    Seriously, I think Aegean Greeks with some mainland ones and maybe an Anatolian one makes the most sense. Armenian is silly. They're quite different.

    I don't see why it's such a surprise. Greek merchants went everywhere. There are reports they were in India for centuries.
    No, merchants don't really work, whether they were from southern Italy or the Aegean, as no trade goods were found, and the location is not on a trade route.

    The historians of the area and time also insist there is absolutely no record of a group of 100 foreigners in that area during that time period. It was a pilgrimage site and there is no record of Mediterraneans converting to Hinduism.

    The other possibility, a relic group of Greeks from antiquity was also investigated and didn't work because they're not related to any group living there now, and most important, their diet was "Mediterranean", which it wouldn't be if they'd been living isolated in Asia for centuries upon centuries.


    "Could Roopkund B have come from an unsampled population in India descended from Greeks or a related group? In this scenario, an enclave of migrants to India never admixed with South Asians, and retained their genetic heritage. But the genetics of Roopkund B, showing no sign of isolation or inbreeding, ruled this out, too. And then there was the stubborn fact that the Roopkund B people ate a diet more consistent with the Mediterranean than with India. The evidence pointed to one conclusion: they were Mediterranean travellers who somehow got to Roopkund, where they died in a single, terrible event. "

    I guess it's going to remain a mystery for a while.

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    if they were from this era

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhang_Qian

    It could explain a lot,

    But the era it is believed they are brings the mystery.

    Offcourse we know that the riches of Byzantines was based on Porphyra colour and Silk,
    East Roman empire made many efforts and even steal eggs of silkworms, much before Marco Polo expeditions

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smuggl...zantine_Empire
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

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    ... Kit re-upload

    Chroma-Analysis:

    I3404 (mt H12) and I3403 (y T1a2) have a relation on my chrome, and they're more Roman like than Greek.

    ... maybe 2 of my Haplos and chrome affinities with these “relatives” found in a frozen lake is just a huge coincidence :)

    I also have chrome affinities with some of the other lost Travelers.






    I3404 (mtDNA H12)
    1. Italian_Abruzzo (7.000)
    2. West_Sicilian (7.281)
    3. Tuscan (8.005)
    4. Greek (9.099)
    5. Albanian_Tosk (9.192)
    6. Central_Greek (9.730)
    7. East_Sicilian (10.55)
    8. South_Italian (11.00)

    I3403 (y T1a2)
    1. West_Sicilian (12.23)
    2. Tuscan (12.93)
    3. South_Italian (14.48)
    4. Italian_Abruzzo (14.51)
    5. East_Sicilian (15.27)
    6. Central_Greek (15.57)
    7. Italian_Jewish (15.63)
    8. Greek_Thessaly (16.80)

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    It could be just conjecture, ...
    It's strange that there aren’t any records on these missing groups of people, ... It wasn't that long ago.

    No one noticed they went missing? ... maybe they weren't important enough, ... Now they've become important, good for them.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    ... Kit re-upload

    Chroma-Analysis:

    I3404 (mt H12) and I3403 (y T1a2) have a relation on my chrome, and they're more Roman like than Greek.

    ... maybe 2 of my Haplos and chrome affinities with these “relatives” found in a frozen lake is just a huge coincidence :)

    I also have chrome affinities with some of the other lost Travelers.






    I3404 (mtDNA H12)
    1. Italian_Abruzzo (7.000)
    2. West_Sicilian (7.281)
    3. Tuscan (8.005)
    4. Greek (9.099)
    5. Albanian_Tosk (9.192)
    6. Central_Greek (9.730)
    7. East_Sicilian (10.55)
    8. South_Italian (11.00)

    I3403 (y T1a2)
    1. West_Sicilian (12.23)
    2. Tuscan (12.93)
    3. South_Italian (14.48)
    4. Italian_Abruzzo (14.51)
    5. East_Sicilian (15.27)
    6. Central_Greek (15.57)
    7. Italian_Jewish (15.63)
    8. Greek_Thessaly (16.80)
    Salento, are people from Crete, or Anatolian Greeks, in the reference sample?

    Conversely, does anyone know if Southern Italians were included as references in the study which concluded they were Aegean Greeks?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Salento, are people from Crete, or Anatolian Greeks, in the reference sample?

    Conversely, does anyone know if Southern Italians were included as references in the study which concluded they were Aegean Greeks?
    I don’t know Angela, ... but the established Messapi may have been a combination of Italic, Crete / Illyria and maybe a bit of Aegean-Anatolian, Full Circle, maybe there's some of these ancient connections to some of the Travelers :)

    https://it.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messapi

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    Michalis Moriopoulos over at Razib's blog posted ,among others, their closest populations using G25 coordinates.
    https://i.imgur.com/o9MmrW1.png

    Imho they look like perfectly normal Greeks. A couple of them seem to be closer to Italian populations and as I understand some have haplogroups more typical of them but as some say that could be just a part of the Aegean genetic variation...
    There were and still are Greek Catholics on some islands of the Aegean too, most of them must have been locals who converted to Catholicism but a limited genetic contribution from Italian settlers can't be excluded.

    In any case, having all these Aegean like samples along with the mainlander-like and Cappadocian outliers means that most Greeks should be easily modeled with just them and with great fits.

    As an example, my Greek friend
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...reek-regions-)
    and his mother not only get very good models and fits but also the samples (and percentages ) chosen by the tool work very well as proxies for their ancestries. especially for his mother .

    Distance to: Chris_scaled
    0.02345751 IND_Roopkund_B:I3404
    0.03144237 IND_Roopkund_B:I2869
    0.03294157 IND_Roopkund_B:I3405
    0.03424486 IND_Roopkund_B:I6936
    0.03621881 IND_Roopkund_B:I6939
    0.03654188 IND_Roopkund_B:I3403
    0.03700118 IND_Roopkund_B:I3348
    0.03870508 IND_Roopkund_B:I3345
    0.03953774 IND_Roopkund_B:I3350
    0.04033429 IND_Roopkund_B:I6937
    0.06244168 IND_Roopkund_B_o:I6935

    Distance to: ChrisMom_scaled
    0.02832175 IND_Roopkund_B:I3348
    0.02908161 IND_Roopkund_B:I6937
    0.03645929 IND_Roopkund_B:I3405
    0.03730029 IND_Roopkund_B:I2869
    0.03737566 IND_Roopkund_B:I6939
    0.04109662 IND_Roopkund_B:I3404
    0.04182255 IND_Roopkund_B:I3403
    0.04554642 IND_Roopkund_B:I6936
    0.04803822 IND_Roopkund_B:I3345
    0.05108572 IND_Roopkund_B:I3350
    0.05221342 IND_Roopkund_B_o:I6935


    Distance: 1.3066% / 0.01306632
    Target: Chris_scaled
    47.0 IND_Roopkund_B:I3404
    17.4 IND_Roopkund_B:I6939
    14.6 IND_Roopkund_B:I3345
    8.8 IND_Roopkund_B:I3348
    6.9 IND_Roopkund_B:I6936
    4.4 IND_Roopkund_B:I2869
    0.9 IND_Roopkund_B_o:I6935


    Distance: 1.7757% / 0.01775656
    Target: ChrisMom_scaled
    38.2 IND_Roopkund_B:I3348
    18.5 IND_Roopkund_B_o:I6935
    15.7 IND_Roopkund_B:I6937
    11.7 IND_Roopkund_B:I3404
    8.0 IND_Roopkund_B:I6939
    7.9 IND_Roopkund_B:I6936

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    When I have time, I am going to process these Roopkund samples.

    I see a lot of disinformation/confusion on Anthrogenica. Such as their labeling the ML Antonio et al. 2019 samples. They falsely assign "Eastern Mediterranean" to samples that are not in the C5 cluster, which is actually "Eastern Mediterranean". According to the actual study, they are C6. So my faith in their analysis is not that great to say the least.

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    According to the post, it is hard to tell the difference between Aegean Greeks, South Italians and Western Jews? Actually, I think it is very easy, if you analyze the samples with a 3D PCA. While they seem as though they cluster in a 2D representation, along with some shared source populations; the Z axis distinguishes them. Western Jewish populations, like their Middle eastern counterparts are shifted on the Z axis toward Natufians. Which is why they are shifted a closer towards modern North African populations, who also have Natufian-like heritage. The ancient Jews were surely descended partly from Natufians, and modern Western Jews are surely partly descended from Ancient Jews.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    According to the post, it is hard to tell the difference between Aegean Greeks, South Italians and Western Jews? Actually, I think it is very easy, if you analysis the samples with a 3D PCA. While they seem as though they cluster in a 2D representation, along with some shared source populations; the Z axis distinguishes them. Western Jewish populations, like their Middle eastern counterparts are shifted on the Z axis toward Natufians. Which is why they are shifted a closer towards modern North African populations, who also have Natufian-like heritage. The ancient Jews were surely descended partly from Natufians, and modern Western Jews are surely partly descended from Ancient Jews.

    Excellent. Is it possible to label the Aegean Greek cluster?

    There's no use paying attention to anything anthrogenica has to say on the subject. Data is never going to be allowed to get in the way of their dogmas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Excellent. Is it possible to label the Aegean Greek cluster?

    There's no use paying attention to anything anthrogenica has to say on the subject. Data is never going to be allowed to get in the way of their dogmas.
    I had composed the PCA with the aDNA samples I produced, (over 2,000, with more to come), along with the original Dodecad G13 populations from Dienekes' spreadsheet. I also added in the individual HGDP samples, which I obtained the CSVs from Genetic Geneology Blog's google drive.

    There is a modern DNA study I found on the Reich Lab dataset list that I am meaning to do which includes a Crete sample. I want to expand on the modern population list as much as possible. However, it is actually more difficult to obtain modern DNA, than aDNA. Mostly due to getting permission from data banks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I had composed the PCA with the aDNA samples I produced, (over 2,000, with more to come), along with the original Dodecad G13 populations from Dienekes' spreadsheet. I also added in the individual HGDP samples, which I obtained the CSVs from Genetic Geneology Blog's google drive.

    There is a modern DNA study I found on the Reich Lab dataset list that I am meaning to do which includes a Crete sample. I want to expand on the modern population list as much as possible. However, it is actually more difficult to obtain modern DNA, than aDNA. Mostly due to getting permission from data banks.
    Hmmm, the only issue I have found is that these files are extremely large, some over 200 GBs. Which could be problematic for processing and producing raw data.

    https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB9586

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    ... from Post #13 (lacreme).

    The G25 results of the samples with Haplogroups y T1a2 (I3403) and mt H12 (I3404 / I6937)

    (Basilicata and Puglia border each other)
    I’m not familiar with G25, ... anyway:



    ... the first 2 samples could be at the edge of being either, ... I guess.

    ... maybe they’re Greek, with a chunk of Southern Italian ancestry, ... I guess.

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    Edit... deleted ...

    Last edited by Salento; 12-12-20 at 07:26.

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    looking forward to Jovialis analysis !

    to my post I forgot to add their (my friend and his mom ) top 25 closest modern populations as a comparison

    Code:
    Distance to: Chris_scaled
    0.01590548 Greek_Izmir
    0.02131083 Italian_Abruzzo
    0.02305019 Italian_Apulia
    0.02339733 Italian_Basilicata
    0.02354511 Italian_Molise
    0.02360667 Greek_Peloponnese
    0.02460381 Greek_Crete
    0.02545619 Italian_Campania
    0.02730103 Greek_Laconia
    0.02830139 Italian_Calabria
    0.02899225 Italian_Umbria
    0.02958131 Italian_Lazio
    0.03008082 Italian_Marche
    0.03009302 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
    0.03034047 Greek_Thessaly
    0.03067671 Ashkenazi_Russia
    0.03153811 Ashkenazi_Lithuania
    0.03185159 Sicilian_East
    0.03278883 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
    0.03326413 Ashkenazi_Poland
    0.03341860 Rumelia_East
    0.03406896 Greek_Macedonia
    0.03412203 Sicilian_West
    0.03417857 Greek_Central_Macedonia
    0.03470665 Greek_Kos
    Code:
    Distance to: ChrisMom_scaled
    0.02354447 Greek_Crete
    0.02930221 Italian_Apulia
    0.02948981 Ashkenazi_Poland
    0.02975077 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
    0.03039461 Ashkenazi_Russia
    0.03084472 Italian_Campania
    0.03084922 Italian_Calabria
    0.03124687 Italian_Basilicata
    0.03130912 Sicilian_East
    0.03226265 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
    0.03271035 Greek_Izmir
    0.03276887 Ashkenazi_Lithuania
    0.03305258 Italian_Abruzzo
    0.03361495 Greek_Dodecanese
    0.03483406 Greek_Kos
    0.03504866 Italian_Molise
    0.03725005 Ashkenazi_Germany
    0.03856248 Sicilian_West
    0.03930647 Maltese
    0.03944034 Sephardic_Jew
    0.03986830 Greek_Peloponnese
    0.04077063 Italian_Jew
    0.04247502 Italian_Marche
    0.04353900 Greek_Laconia
    0.04401532 Italian_Lazio

  22. #22
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    @lacreme

    ... statistics vs regional DNA

    if your friends tested with Ancestry or 23andme, chances are they know their ancestors’ regional places and where they’re from, ... or not from :)

    ... though Grecìa Salentina is in Puglia, and I’m from Salento, I don’t get a localized regional place outside of Italy.





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    Code:
    I3403:É_Harney_et_al._2019,0,0.24,0.41,0,16.56,0.87,36.11,0,0.27,24.98,20.56,0,0
    I3404:É_Harney_et_al._2019,0,0.68,0.99,0,13.51,0.42,34.61,0.42,0,23.92,25.23,0.22,0
    I6937:É_Harney_et_al._2019,0,0,1.6,0.71,16.53,0.3,37.23,0.27,0,25.65,16.98,0.74,0
    Here are the three "Greek" samples.

    Here are two angles:





    Distance to: I6937:É_Harney_et_al._2019
    4.22436978 Sicilian_D
    4.31361797 S_Italian_Sicilian_D
    5.29861303 Ashkenazy_Jews
    5.69274099 Ashkenazi_D
    8.10501696 Greek_D
    9.58098638 C_Italian_D
    10.87286991 Sephardic_Jews
    12.27979234 Morocco_Jews
    15.03846069 Tuscan
    15.11943451 Turkish_Aydin_Ho
    15.78478064 TSI30
    15.88481350 Turkish_Cypriot_D
    16.21509482 Cypriots
    16.54440389 O_Italian_D
    19.45839921 Turkish_D
    19.48212771 Turkish_Kayseri_Ho
    20.06044117 Lebanese
    20.43656772 Turks
    21.86703684 Turkish_Istanbul_Ho
    22.45990427 N_Italian_D
    22.72072402 North_Italian
    24.42280287 Bulgarians_Y
    24.77917069 Bulgarian_D
    24.94504560 Druze
    25.31879342 Syrians


    Distance to: I3404:É_Harney_et_al._2019
    3.99464642 Greek_D
    9.40017021 C_Italian_D
    9.60412411 O_Italian_D
    11.29208572 Sicilian_D
    11.33054279 S_Italian_Sicilian_D
    11.45980803 Tuscan
    11.75726159 Ashkenazi_D
    11.86166936 TSI30
    12.03956810 Ashkenazy_Jews
    15.35848951 Bulgarians_Y
    15.67785700 Bulgarian_D
    15.87152167 N_Italian_D
    17.93396777 Romanians
    17.97941045 North_Italian
    18.33437209 Turkish_Aydin_Ho
    19.64309548 Sephardic_Jews
    20.56616639 Morocco_Jews
    21.88673571 Serb_D
    23.90939564 Baleares_1KG
    23.95247795 Canarias_1KG
    23.99323238 Turkish_Cypriot_D
    24.37878586 Murcia_1KG
    24.55555334 Portuguese_D
    24.68637681 Turkish_D
    24.75195346 Cypriots

    Distance to: I3403:É_Harney_et_al._2019
    4.81011434 Greek_D
    6.25932904 S_Italian_Sicilian_D
    6.36374104 Sicilian_D
    6.48792725 Ashkenazi_D
    6.57047943 Ashkenazy_Jews
    8.49924703 C_Italian_D
    13.24957358 Tuscan
    13.72316290 O_Italian_D
    13.88867164 Sephardic_Jews
    13.88910364 TSI30
    15.08791569 Morocco_Jews
    15.90538274 Turkish_Aydin_Ho
    18.80226582 Turkish_Cypriot_D
    19.20435367 Cypriots
    19.78942142 N_Italian_D
    20.71895750 North_Italian
    20.78281020 Bulgarians_Y
    21.08348169 Bulgarian_D
    21.24865172 Turkish_D
    21.28617392 Turkish_Kayseri_Ho
    22.09921266 Turks
    22.19858554 Lebanese
    23.32559110 Romanians
    23.42151148 Turkish_Istanbul_Ho
    25.96060862 Canarias_1KG

  24. #24
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    4,783

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1a2b1 (R-F1794)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Here is how I measure up to them:

    Distance to: Jovialis
    4.08227878 I3403:É_Harney_et_al._2019
    5.32357023 I3404:É_Harney_et_al._2019
    6.43343610 I6937:É_Harney_et_al._2019

  25. #25
    Regular Member kingjohn's Avatar
    Join Date
    05-09-16
    Posts
    898

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    ftdna E-BY96055
    MtDNA haplogroup
    from plovdiv h3ap

    Country: Uruguay



    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Code:
    I3403:É_Harney_et_al._2019,0,0.24,0.41,0,16.56,0.87,36.11,0,0.27,24.98,20.56,0,0
    I3404:É_Harney_et_al._2019,0,0.68,0.99,0,13.51,0.42,34.61,0.42,0,23.92,25.23,0.22,0
    I6937:É_Harney_et_al._2019,0,0,1.6,0.71,16.53,0.3,37.23,0.27,0,25.65,16.98,0.74,0
    Here are the three "Greek" samples.

    Here are two angles:





    Distance to: I6937:É_Harney_et_al._2019
    4.22436978 Sicilian_D
    4.31361797 S_Italian_Sicilian_D
    5.29861303 Ashkenazy_Jews
    5.69274099 Ashkenazi_D
    8.10501696 Greek_D
    9.58098638 C_Italian_D
    10.87286991 Sephardic_Jews
    12.27979234 Morocco_Jews
    15.03846069 Tuscan
    15.11943451 Turkish_Aydin_Ho
    15.78478064 TSI30
    15.88481350 Turkish_Cypriot_D
    16.21509482 Cypriots
    16.54440389 O_Italian_D
    19.45839921 Turkish_D
    19.48212771 Turkish_Kayseri_Ho
    20.06044117 Lebanese
    20.43656772 Turks
    21.86703684 Turkish_Istanbul_Ho
    22.45990427 N_Italian_D
    22.72072402 North_Italian
    24.42280287 Bulgarians_Y
    24.77917069 Bulgarian_D
    24.94504560 Druze
    25.31879342 Syrians


    Distance to: I3404:É_Harney_et_al._2019
    3.99464642 Greek_D
    9.40017021 C_Italian_D
    9.60412411 O_Italian_D
    11.29208572 Sicilian_D
    11.33054279 S_Italian_Sicilian_D
    11.45980803 Tuscan
    11.75726159 Ashkenazi_D
    11.86166936 TSI30
    12.03956810 Ashkenazy_Jews
    15.35848951 Bulgarians_Y
    15.67785700 Bulgarian_D
    15.87152167 N_Italian_D
    17.93396777 Romanians
    17.97941045 North_Italian
    18.33437209 Turkish_Aydin_Ho
    19.64309548 Sephardic_Jews
    20.56616639 Morocco_Jews
    21.88673571 Serb_D
    23.90939564 Baleares_1KG
    23.95247795 Canarias_1KG
    23.99323238 Turkish_Cypriot_D
    24.37878586 Murcia_1KG
    24.55555334 Portuguese_D
    24.68637681 Turkish_D
    24.75195346 Cypriots

    Distance to: I3403:É_Harney_et_al._2019
    4.81011434 Greek_D
    6.25932904 S_Italian_Sicilian_D
    6.36374104 Sicilian_D
    6.48792725 Ashkenazi_D
    6.57047943 Ashkenazy_Jews
    8.49924703 C_Italian_D
    13.24957358 Tuscan
    13.72316290 O_Italian_D
    13.88867164 Sephardic_Jews
    13.88910364 TSI30
    15.08791569 Morocco_Jews
    15.90538274 Turkish_Aydin_Ho
    18.80226582 Turkish_Cypriot_D
    19.20435367 Cypriots
    19.78942142 N_Italian_D
    20.71895750 North_Italian
    20.78281020 Bulgarians_Y
    21.08348169 Bulgarian_D
    21.24865172 Turkish_D
    21.28617392 Turkish_Kayseri_Ho
    22.09921266 Turks
    22.19858554 Lebanese
    23.32559110 Romanians
    23.42151148 Turkish_Istanbul_Ho
    25.96060862 Canarias_1KG
    thanks jovialis
    if i am reading that correctly i3404 cluster more with mainland greek than with sicilian south italian
    it is intersting i think he is the e-fgc-18401/ h12 dude ( salento correct me if i am wrong)
    i6937 is not that far from aschenazi ...

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