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Thread: Guess the ethnicity of this man

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    Advisor Angela's Avatar
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    Guess the ethnicity of this man





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    Hmm.
    Looks very different on these pictures. On the first one I could guess Welch or Portugese but on the second more Southern like Spanish or Southern French.

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    Italian

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    It is difficult, in principle I am not familiar so it must be far from the Iberian Peninsula, it is possible that he himself is somewhat atypical in his area reason for his choice, but in the second photo I have come very soft airs of North Africa but good I'm going to risk: Egypt

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    You came the closest in terms of geography, Carlos: he's a Moroccan (Sephardic) Jew.

    I'm sure you guys know better, but I thought there was a bit of Portuguese or Spanish in him phenotypically, as there certainly is genetically, along with a bit of Berber in addition to the Levantine. I didn't see Italian bone structure in him at all.

    He's David Shor (last name changed by his father), a Democratic operative and mathematician. He was a bit of a prodigy: went to university from 13-17.

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    His podcast with Razib Khan was pretty interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    You came the closest in terms of geography, Carlos: he's a Moroccan (Sephardic) Jew.

    I'm sure you guys know better, but I thought there was a bit of Portuguese or Spanish in him phenotypically, as there certainly is genetically, along with a bit of Berber in addition to the Levantine. I didn't see Italian bone structure in him at all.

    He's David Shor (last name changed by his father), a Democratic operative and mathematician. He was a bit of a prodigy: went to university from 13-17.
    Hmmmm, in the second photo I can see the phenotype characteristics of a Jew with an Iberian admixture, as you pointed, Angela. I was betrayed by photo number one, where he is using short hair probably artificially lighten :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    You came the closest in terms of geography, Carlos: he's a Moroccan (Sephardic) Jew.

    I'm sure you guys know better, but I thought there was a bit of Portuguese or Spanish in him phenotypically, as there certainly is genetically, along with a bit of Berber in addition to the Levantine. I didn't see Italian bone structure in him at all.

    He's David Shor (last name changed by his father), a Democratic operative and mathematician. He was a bit of a prodigy: went to university from 13-17.
    Thanks. Interesting choice. I personally agree that I wouldn't take a guess on Italian at the same time I could understand why Duarte took a shot on it regarding the first picture.

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    Advisor Angela's Avatar
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    Here's another picture of him. I couldn't use it because of his necklace, but it's probably the most "true to life".



    I don't want to invade his family's privacy, but because of some hints he gave, I found his father and mother. He has his father's big eyes, but most of the rest is his mother, who doesn't look Jewish or even less, North African at all. Her surname was Toledano, as in Toledo.

    They're an interesting bunch, Moroccan Jews. Some look quite Middle Eastern but not particularly "Jewish" by Ashkenazi standards, and some not at all, and are difficult to "guess" imo, unless you've seen a particular look before. Unlike a lot of Sephardic Middle Eastern Jews they sometimes rival the Ashkenazim in terms of accomplishments.

    Following are two French Moroccan Jews. I guessed the second because I was so familiar with the face of the first; otherwise, I would have been stumped.

    French philosopher Bernard Henri Levy as a young man:


    I thought he looked like a more handsome Charles Aznavour ( Armenian by ancestry) when he got older.




    The French actor I immediately thought might be "Jewish", although he doesn't look like any American or Ashkenazi Jew I've ever seen. (Gregory Fitoussi) It was just because of a resemblance I saw to the young Bernard Levy. They're a good looking bunch. Given how inbred they are (not much mixture even with other North African Jews) it stands to reason you would find resemblances.


    Hank Azaria, also a Sephardic Jew, but one whose ancestors went not to Morocco but to Thessaloniki after the expulsion does look Italian to me. They must have picked up some additional admixture there in Greece.



    @Jovialis,
    He's a brilliant mathematician, but I think the reason he gets it right about American politics is because he spent his childhood and even teen years in a lower middle class neighborhood surrounded by Cuban Americans, among others; in other words, he didn't grow up in an elite Democrat bubble. He "gets" this country in ways other Democrat operatives don't. If they want to keep winning they should start listening to him. AOC doesn't speak for the majority of Hispanics in this country, for one thing, not by a long shot, and they better realize it.

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    @Angela
    I don't want to invade his family's privacy, but because of some hints he gave, I found his father and mother. He has his father's big eyes, but most of the rest is his mother, who doesn't look Jewish or even less, North African at all. Her surname was Toledano, as in Toledo.


    TOLEDANO
    Origin of the TOLEDANO surname and meaning of the TOLEDAN surname:

    Castilian surname, of toponymic origin. This is the name of those surnames that originally took the name of the place of birth or residence of its early members, or where they owned land, manor or other types of inheritance. Soldiers and adventurers who left their place of birth joined their baptismal name to that of the place where their family lived. Later, this nickname took nature as a definitive and legitimate surname when it was formally registered. The Toledano surname goes back to the time when the Jews were going to be expelled from the peninsula and were allowed to stay, as long as they converted to the Christian religion, so some families of "converted Jews" adopted the Toledano surname. They passed to Israel and Cuba.

    https://heraldicadeapellidos.com/ori...-toledano.html


    Clarifications


    The inclusion of a surname in these lists does not necessarily imply that the surname is of Jewish origin.


    In Spain, with few exceptions, there can be no Hebrew surnames. Due to forced conversions and blood cleansing statutes, Jews had to change their surnames and names. As the practice of the Jewish religion was considered a crime, the converts had to hide their origins, to hide, to make themselves forget. That's why they began to carry common surnames among the "old Christians", like Rodriguez and Lopez. Not all people who carry those surnames have to be of Jewish origin.

    https://www.tarbutsefarad.com/apellidos-judios/lista-apellidos-judios.html


    (Excerpt)
    Todosudo
    Todros
    Toledano
    Toledo
    Tolosa


    In this case Toledano was a surname shared by Christians and Jews or Jewish converts.

    In addition to photography and phenotypes that show the ideal would be to complement it with genetic results.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post

    @Jovialis,
    He's a brilliant mathematician, but I think the reason he gets it right about American politics is because he spent his childhood and even teen years in a lower middle class neighborhood surrounded by Cuban Americans, among others; in other words, he didn't grow up in an elite Democrat bubble. He "gets" this country in ways other Democrat operatives don't. If they want to keep winning they should start listening to him. AOC doesn't speak for the majority of Hispanics in this country, for one thing, not by a long shot, and they better realize it.
    Similarly, I also grew up middle class, surrounded by Hispanics. I too see a big disconnect with the yuppies in NYC, and what they assume Hispanics are like. I knew a lot of Cubans, and Puerto Ricans growing up, they're not the monolith that woke liberals make them out to be. In fact, they would endlessly make fun of the yuppies, as being disingenuous try-hard, gringos, attempting to curry favor by victimizing people.

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    Brazilian Sephardic Jews. Politicians and unconditional supporters of the “President” Bolsonaro. At first pic we see the Weintraub brothers. In the second photo, the Alcolumbre brothers. I never understood why my father didn’t like Jews, but considering the public performance of this quartet, I can me the liberty to think that the Jews that my father don’t liked seemed with these four and not with Albert Einstein.



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    Some Jews are conservative; many Jews are ultra-liberal. Before the second World War, a lot of them were Marxists and supporters of Russia (and that includes Italy), which, given that so many of them in the east were poor, and so many were members of the intelligentsia (universities then and now promoted Marxism) ,is not surprising. However, a lot of Jews in Italy, especially of the industrial class, were supporters and even among the founding members of the Fascist party.

    Ethnicity is not a perfect indicator of political orientation. Most of the Irish here are Democrats, but not all. Class, profession, whether one has been persuaded by very liberal professors, all sorts of things come into play. Here in the U.S. Jews are one of the groups which vote against their financial interest. Most of them are quite wealthy, yet they vote very liberal and thus for much higher taxes. It's partly because of what they learned in university, but it's also because of identification with those who are excluded, i.e. minorities.

    To return to the topic, I don't know their precise ancestral origin, but these men don't look like Moroccan Jews to me, and one of them looks SSA admixed. I could be wrong, of course. Maybe a lot of admixture occurred along the way.

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    Advisor Angela's Avatar
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    Gad Elmaleh-French Moroccan comedian


    Emmanuelle Chriqui


    Vintage photo


    There are dozens of these photos.

    Endogamy strictly practiced means there is only the tiniest percentage of SSA in these people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duarte View Post
    Brazilian Sephardic Jews. Politicians and unconditional supporters of the “President” Bolsonaro. At first pic we see the Weintraub brothers. In the second photo, the Alcolumbre brothers. I never understood why my father didn’t like Jews, but considering the public performance of this quartet, I can me the liberty to think that the Jews that my father don’t liked seemed with these four and not with Albert Einstein.


    For me this man would be a typical brown from the southeast with SSA ancestry:


    Abraham Bragança de Vasconcellos Weintraub ( São Paulo , October 11, 1971) [ 7 ] is a Brazilian economist and professor , professor at the Federal University of São Paulo (UNIFESP). He was Minister of Education of Brazil between 2019 and 2020 [ 8 ] [ 9 ] and in July 2020 he was elected executive director of the 15th District of the World Bank 's board of directors , [ 10 ] [ 11 ] [ 12 ]replacing Filipinoeconomist Elsa Agustin. [ 13


    This other would be a typical brown man from the Amazon, with great Amerindian ancestry:


    David Samuel Alcolumbre Tobelem ( Macapa , 19 of June of 1977 ) is a merchant and political Brazilianaffiliated with the Democrats . He is a senator for Amapá and, in the 2019-2020 biennium, current president of the Senate since 2019 and president of the National Congress of Brazil . [ 2 ]

    Of Moroccan descent , Davi Alcolumbre is the first Jew to assume the presidency of the Senate in the history of Brazil. [ 3 ]

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    some kind of balkanite? but he looks also some kind of Iberian

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    How different are Moroccan Sephardic Jews from Brazilian Sephardic Jews.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carlos View Post
    How different are Moroccan Sephardic Jews from Brazilian Sephardic Jews.
    This quartet certainly got mixed up in Brazil, and it was no small feat. If it were tiny, they would not so changed. But it would be easier for them to affirm with absolute certainty that exist the US $ 3 bill than to admit that both have SSA or Amerindian ancestry. It would be as if they are admitting that they are cultural Jews and not ethnic Jews.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duarte View Post
    This quartet certainly got mixed up in Brazil, and it was no small feat. If it were tiny, they would not so changed. But it would be easier for them to affirm with absolute certainty that exist the US $ 3 bill than to admit that both have SSA or Amerindian ancestry. It would be as if they are admitting that they are cultural Jews and not ethnic Jews.
    One of them seems that you can see something of the Americas in him and in a somewhat undefined way, but the rest, if I found them in those worlds, I would never have thought they were South Americans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carlos View Post
    How different are Moroccan Sephardic Jews from Brazilian Sephardic Jews.
    One and perhaps two of the four Brazilian Sephardic Jews looks like he picked up Amerindian. One looks more SSA than any Moroccan Jews I've seen.

    I don't know why that's surprising. All Jews admixed a bit in the countries which hosted them. It happened in Spain, of that we're sure from autosomal analysis. It happened even more in central and eastern Europe with the Ashkenazim. That's why the Ashkenazim and certain Sephardim no longer plot in the Near East.

    Most of the researchers, including the Jewish ones, usually attribute it to Jewish males taking non Jewish wives who then convert. I have women friends here in the U.S. who did it so it's an ongoing process. Ivanka Trump did it. So long as an Orthodox rabbi performed the conversion no one anywhere, even in Israel, is going to deny a "Jewish" identity to the woman or her children.

    This is an old schematic, but it shows the situation simply.

    SBJ is, I believe, the Belmonte Jews of Portugal. As you can see, more admixture over the years than the Sephardic Jews who fled.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Carlos View Post
    One of them seems that you can see something of the Americas in him and in a somewhat undefined way, but the rest, if I found them in those worlds, I would never have thought they were South Americans.
    Davi Alcolumbre has a very common, if not the most common, biotype in the north and northeast of Brazil, although his whole surname is totally unusual for Brazilians: David Samuel Alcolumbre Tobelem. The other one, Mr. Abraham Bragança de Vasconcellos Weintraub is known in Brazil only as Abraham Weintraub. He carries the surnames “Bragança de Vasconcellos”. I highlight that “Bragança” is one of the surnames that carries the royal family of Portugal and Brazil. He has a very common biotype in the rural areas of the Midwest and Southeast of Brazil. I would not hesitate to label him a “caboclo”. Caboclo is a mix where European ancestry predominates, but with significant percentages of Amerindian ancestry (more) and SSA (less).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Some Jews are conservative; many Jews are ultra-liberal. Before the second World War, a lot of them were Marxists and supporters of Russia (and that includes Italy), which, given that so many of them in the east were poor, and so many were members of the intelligentsia (universities then and now promoted Marxism) ,is not surprising. However, a lot of Jews in Italy, especially of the industrial class, were supporters and even among the founding members of the Fascist party.

    Ethnicity is not a perfect indicator of political orientation. Most of the Irish here are Democrats, but not all. Class, profession, whether one has been persuaded by very liberal professors, all sorts of things come into play. Here in the U.S. Jews are one of the groups which vote against their financial interest. Most of them are quite wealthy, yet they vote very liberal and thus for much higher taxes. It's partly because of what they learned in university, but it's also because of identification with those who are excluded, i.e. minorities.

    To return to the topic, I don't know their precise ancestral origin, but these men don't look like Moroccan Jews to me, and one of them looks SSA admixed. I could be wrong, of course. Maybe a lot of admixture occurred along the way.
    Ashkenazi Jews being mostly liberal in 21th century ( 20th century Communism was very complicated) is probably related with their high education status.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Ashkenazi Jews being mostly liberal in 21th century ( 20th century Communism was very complicated) is probably related with their high education status.
    This is pretty interesting because Israel is one of the most pro Trump countries. Biden is very impopular in Israel, as was Obama.

    Also here in Sweden most Jews are ultra liberal but at the same time some support and are important figures in the right wing Sverigedemokraterna (Swedish Democrats). This has of course to do whith that antisemitism is extremely common within the Middle Eastern immigrants, which is a large minority. Give it a decade or so and they'll be a majority.

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    In Israel, the Ashkenazim are mostly liberal, while the Sephardim are mostly conservative. (To a point someone made, the Ashkenazim are more highly educated.) One of the most important pivot points, however, is the attitude toward the Palestinians/Arabs etc., i.e. whether you're hardline or take a softer approach. The Sephardim are mostly hardliners. Of course, the Ashkenazim didn't come from countries where they were oppressed by Near Eastern and North African Muslims.

    Neither side has a majority so they have to court the small Ultra-Orthodox parties, who then get to impose strict rabbinical rules on day to day life which most Israelis hate, but which is the price for their support.

    I'd generalize and say all politics is local and personal to at least some degree, with, in many cases, religious conservatism often leading to political conservatism. Academics are going to be liberal, but Jewish small business owners lean more conservative. How your world view was formed, your educational, religious, but also your professional experiences color your beliefs.

    Just as an example, irreligious or Reform Jews I know tend to be more liberal than Orthodox Jews even if they're equally educated. Strong religious belief seems to inoculate most people against ultra-leftism. Running your own small business likewise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mordred View Post
    This is pretty interesting because Israel is one of the most pro Trump countries. Biden is very impopular in Israel, as was Obama.

    Also here in Sweden most Jews are ultra liberal but at the same time some support and are important figures in the right wing Sverigedemokraterna (Swedish Democrats). This has of course to do whith that antisemitism is extremely common within the Middle Eastern immigrants, which is a large minority. Give it a decade or so and they'll be a majority.

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    Aren't like most Swedes extremely liberal too? Even more than the Jews.

    Muslims will hit 30% with continuous high immigration till 2050. If the migration falls (which is more accurate) than it is around 20%.

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