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Thread: Which culture brought Italic languages into the peninsula?

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    Regular Member Cato's Avatar
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    Which culture brought Italic languages into the peninsula?

    I believed that italic was spoken by north eastern Italian people of the bronze age such as the Terramare culture but the related Olmo di Nogara individuals had few steppe, less than 15%, so they can be the source of the protovillanovans like the one from Martinsicuro who was about 40% Steppe. Was the Urnfield culture from Central Europe the main source? What do you think?

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    At high school (a liceo classico) they taught to me Urnfield culture is founder both to Etruscan and Latin material cultures.
    Linguistically speaking instead there is usually division between a first wave (latin+paleoveneto) and a second one (oscan). The division is made because Latin shows a deeper connection with Sanscrit (difficult to explain causes, my personal guess is a prolonged contact with a satem language ) and Gaulish Celtic (probably archaisms from before split between italic and Celtic languages) while Oscan shows a prolonged contact by Greek (more than what Latin does) and more inner evolution.

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    Regular Member Cato's Avatar
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    The mistery is the role of the Terramare. According to many scholars they migrated South in the LBA. They were not few, about 150.000 persons, so they were numerous enough to impose their language and costums like cremation. However I doubt that their genome was 40% from the steppe, a Central European source is needed for the Protovillanova imo

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    In Europe there are many layers of unknown languages both non Indo-European as Indo-European and "paraindoeuropean". Terramare is usually linked or to the first italic wave or personally speaking more logically to one of the numerous unsuccessful waves bringing unknown dead languages

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    I think the Urnfield theory makes sense.

    It looks like there were two waves of Italic people into Italian peninsula, one before the Late Bronze Age and the second one with the Late Bronze Age Urnfield expansion.

    What i wonder is, are the Etruscans originally Urnfield people, did they also migrate during the Late Bronze Age or they just adopted the Urnfield customs?

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    You're right, the Urnfield theory makes sense.
    Most likely, in the aftermath, adopted adopted the customs of urnfield.

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    The problem with the theory of two waves is that protovillanova was an homogeneous culture extended from Veneto and Emilia Romagna till eastern Sicily. Osco Umbrians however adopted cremation only for a short period of time

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    And I've read on Anthrogenica that according to an upcoming paper the Samnites were similar to Latins genetically

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    Oscans speaking areas don't show archeologically a radical change from preindoeuropean period, nothing strange considering that we know by historical sources that their expansion was done by expelling most of young male warriors of a tribe which, under the banner of an animal totem, founded a new tribe, taking obviously women from the locals. So preindoeuropean appennic culture didn't disappeared till Roman occupation.
    Possible explanation that I endorse is that Oscans reached Italy by sea crossing Adriatic as later have done Iapygians (tribes which settled in Apulia absorbing oscan elements but bringing their own culture, they spoke a language related to Albanian)

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    Protovillanovan/Villanovan sites have as core area Emilia Romagna, Tuscany and northern Lazio. With areas of heavy influence in coastal Campania and of minor one in Po' valley. The only pure protovillanovan settlement to develop in continuity to an historically known people are Etruscans and Latin ones.

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    Linguistically speaking they must have been two waves since the 2 branches show to have developed without contact between them and with contact with other different languages. At most it could be said that they came from different areas and with different route but at the same time, but then the absence of consistent mutual influence would be difficult to explain

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cescut View Post
    Oscans speaking areas don't show archeologically a radical change from preindoeuropean period, nothing strange considering that we know by historical sources that their expansion was done by expelling most of young male warriors of a tribe which, under the banner of an animal totem, founded a new tribe, taking obviously women from the locals. So preindoeuropean appennic culture didn't disappeared till Roman occupation.
    Possible explanation that I endorse is that Oscans reached Italy by sea crossing Adriatic as later have done Iapygians (tribes which settled in Apulia absorbing oscan elements but bringing their own culture, they spoke a language related to Albanian)

    I remember an article a few years back that states the Umbri brought it into Italy from modern east-austria/hungaria circa 2250BC

    The Umbri tribes and sub-tribes are the biggest in Italy in the ancient times

    the Iapygians came into Italy at Foggia ( then moved south along the coast ) with the Daunians tribe circa 1000Bc , they are the biggest group that speak Messapic ...........they would have learnt ancient Italian from the people the conquered before the Latins arrived

    The Daunians (Greek: Δαύνιοι, romanized: Daúnioi; Latin: Daunii) were an Iapygian tribe that inhabited northern Apulia in classical antiquity. Two other Iapygian tribes, the Peucetians and the Messapians, inhabited central and southern Apulia respectively. All three tribes spoke the Messapic language,

    The Iapygians originate next to the Liburnians.......they ( Liburnians ) took Picene ( Marche )lands as a colony at the same time the Daunians took Foggia area
    Fathers mtdna ... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ... K1a4
    Mum paternal line ... R1b-S8172
    Grandmum paternal side ... I1-Y33791
    Wife paternal line ... R1a-Z282

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    Adriatic from where? Illyria?

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    Illyrian is a later and vague geographic definition. We may say Balkan Peninsula, beside that there is only pure speculation. The only possible clarification is that the Oscan branch was probably settled more to the south than the Latin-Paleoveneto one

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cescut View Post
    Illyrian is a later and vague geographic definition. We may say Balkan Peninsula, beside that there is only pure speculation. The only possible clarification is that the Oscan branch was probably settled more to the south than the Latin-Paleoveneto one
    There has never been found an illyrian language and never will be because it does not exist......only illyrian personnel names is found in noricum ( east-Austria ).....the language is either dalmatian, liburnian, pannonian, etc etc all in Illyrian lands

    ....................

    Umbri is older than oscan ............sabines, sabellics, samnites and a few other tribes...are all Umbri in origin, which will mean they originally spoke Umbri only and created an osco-umbrian language later

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    [QUOTE=torzio;616869]There has never been found an illyrian language and never will be because it does not exist......only illyrian personnel names is found in noricum ( east-Austria ).....the language is either dalmatian, liburnian, pannonian, etc etc all in Illyrian lands

    ....................

    Umbri is older than oscan ............sabines, sabellics, samnites and a few other tribes...are all Umbri in origin, which will mean they originally spoke Umbri only and created an osco-umbrian language later[/QUO




    Obviously you have either don't know how to read , or you are still learning to read.

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    Danube provinces as Illyrian names appear in Noricum, Pannonia, Dalmatia, Moesia Superior,and Dacia. Therefore, although a name might be identified as Illyrian, it does not distinctly provide an origin without other evidence. This prevalence of Illyrian names does provide a clue at indigenous naming conventions. Illyrian inscriptions in the Danube provinces listed an individual’s name with the father’s name following in the genitive.441Roman convention included filius/filiaor f.with the father’s name, a practice found only once on a monument for the deceased at Alburnus Maior.4



    Alburnus Maior was a mining place in Romania ( Dacia )........from modern ..............The Apuseni Mountains (Romanian: Munții Apuseni, Hungarian: Erdélyi-középhegység) is a mountain range in Transylvania, Romania, which belongs to the Western Romanian Carpathians, also called Occidentali in Romanian.



    an interesting article below
    https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/37772728.pdf

    Mining Culture in Roman Dacia: Empire, Community, and Identity at the Gold Mines of Alburnus Maior ca.107-270 C.E.


    ..........................

    Too many people assume things are the same regardless of time passing.....like Halstatt culture and La Tene culture are not the same as there is more than 500 years of time separates these cultures


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    For those who are interested and curious to know how Proto-Italic or Proto-Celtic sounds like.

    Here YT clips :






    To me Prot-Italic and Proto- Celtic sound pretty similar. The Central European Beaker ancestry connects Italics and Celtics ethnically and linguistically.

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    In your opinion which haplogroups carried the Osco Umbrians.? Latins were mostly R1b but in the south of Italy U152 is not very popular

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