New MyHeritage update (groups)

**Regio X** · 31-12-20, 22:46

Originally Posted by Angela

I wish I had some results to share but I never bought it. All I know is that they use Ashkenazim as part of the "Middle East" reference group, an ethnicity which by conservative estimates is at least 40-60% European. I'd never heard of anything so stupid by a testing company. That would vastly inflate the "Middle Eastern" in Europeans, and also inflate Ashkenazi in Southern Europeans.
It's almost as bad as Eurogenes "J" test.
If you're Southern European and want to know if you have Ashkenazi ancestry to any meaningful degree, go to 23andme. If you have it, the genes will show up.

Angela, I've never bought them either, and they're there.
When I uploaded my uncle's data, his results were blocked, but for some reason they were unblocked after a while.
Matching tool is free, IIRC.

**torzio** · 31-12-20, 23:19

my sister match areas

I can confirm these with BDM records

Top places 1600 - 1650
Ferrara, Emilia-Romagna, Italy ..................nil..........but Rovigo , just north of Ferrara is a match

Fontane, Veneto, Italy ................correct

Zernez, Grisons, Switzerland ................correct

Babenhausen, Hesse, Germany ................no idea

Canizzano, Veneto, Italy ..................correct

Fontanelle, Veneto, Italy ................correct

Gross-Umstadt, Hesse, Germany ...............unsure

Karbach, Rhineland-Palatinate, Germany .............correct

Loria, Veneto, Italy .........................correct

Polcenigo, Friuli-Venezia Giulia, Italy ...................correct

San Zenone Deghi Ezzelini .....just north of Loria is missing and so is Asolo, Fonte and Monfumo ..........as per BDM records

.................................................. ............................................

advance 100 years

Top places 1700 - 1750
Veneto, Italy

Italy

Noventa di Piave, Veneto, Italy ...........................yes

Treviso, Veneto, Italy ........................................yes

Grasciano, Abruzzo, Italy ......................................no idea

Lancenigo, Veneto, Italy ..............................correct, town under Villorba

Mareno di Piave, Veneto, Italy ........................yes

Pasiano di Pordenone, Friuli-Venezia Giulia, Italy ..........................no idea, I thought it was Porcia di Pordenone

Prata di Pordenone, Friuli-Venezia Giulia, Italy ...........................no.......but cousins come from here

Rovaré, Veneto, Italy ............................yes

**torzio** · 31-12-20, 23:26

1st cousin .................from sister of my grandfather paternal side

Top places 1600 - 1650
Italy

Sossano, Veneto, Italy

United Kingdom ................................no idea

Adelange, Grand Est, France................................no idea

Altrippe, Grand Est, France................................no idea

Anzeling, Grand Est, France................................no idea

Badia, South Tyrol, South Tyrol, Italy .....................need to check ............Tres in Val di Non is the right place

surnames

Rossi .................should be Ros

Ferrari ...............no

Zanella .................yes

Bianchi ................yes

Carraro .................yes

Moro ........................yes

Zanon ...................yes

Barbieri ...................no

Fontana ..................no

Marin .....................yes

**Duarte** · 31-12-20, 23:39

MH considers the Askenazi an European ethnicity and the Sefardi an ethnic group from North Africa. MH addresses the Askenazi in the following way.

**Angela** · 01-01-21, 04:52

Then they changed it I guess. Regardless, the Ashkenazim have no IBD sharing with either Spaniards or Italians.

**christa** · 01-01-21, 07:19

Originally Posted by Jovialis

This is mine.

what genetic groups do you get at low confidence level?

**Jovialis** · 01-01-21, 13:14

I don't see how a low confidence level result would be of much value or interest, but here is mine:

Romania probably has some connection with Bronze Age Hungarian DNA, and Louisiana & Mississippi are from Italian diaspora that went there in the 1800s. I don't have any family that went there, the only group which makes sense is the Bari one.

Sicily and Sardinia? That's a pretty massive range.

**Riverman** · 01-01-21, 14:10

Originally Posted by Jovialis

Romania probably has some connection with Bronze Age Hungarian DNA

Romanians have strong Balkan and Roman influences, also strong Slavic ones and minor, but significant, more recent ones from various steppe people, Hungarians, Germans, Serbs and Bulgarians among others. Its in any case about more recent common ancestry than the Bronze Age with this feature, so admixture within historical times. The question is just in which direction it was going, from Romania or to Romania. Could be the general Vlach/Balkan cluster via Albanian ancestry?

I get French in Northern America on low confidence because some German-French relatives of ancestors moved to these communities.

**Duarte** · 01-01-21, 15:09

The Sephardic ethnicity, according to MyHeritage

**Angela** · 01-01-21, 15:19

^^I don't understand how that makes much sense. They are a few percent Berber. The rest of their ancestry is like that of Ashkenazi Jews. That's just a geographical description of where they lived, not their "origin".

**Angela** · 01-01-21, 15:24

Does anyone have a link to their "white paper", where they explain their reference groups and process?

**Carlos** · 01-01-21, 15:45

Perhaps in all this period they have already become Maghrebi Jews, otherwise they would have had to exercise a strong inbreeding and would have presented multiple diseases like the Jews of Mallorca. Perhaps the Muslim power has been permissive in the transit of Berber marriages to Sephardic Jews.

**Duarte** · 01-01-21, 16:01

Originally Posted by Angela

Then they changed it I guess. Regardless, the Ashkenazim have no IBD sharing with either Spaniards or Italians.

Hi Angela. Happy New Year

MH's proposal is to establish clusters with modern populations. The Sephardim arrived in Iberia from North Africa and when they were expelled in the late 1400s, they returned mostly there. The Ashkenazins had a strong presence in Central and Eastern Europe until the Holocaust. Before the war, the Ashkenazi corresponded to more than 10,000,000 people. This is more than the current population of Portugal. Israel is a state that emerged in 1945. IMO, it makes no sense to associate the Jews Asquenaze and Sephardi with such a new state, but with their last known origins, which is Central Europe and North Africa, respectively. The Sefardi community in Iberia is numerically insignificant today and many of those who are there today are Sephardic cultural people from Latim America who used complicated bureaucratic intricacies to receive Portuguese or Spanish citizenship and settle in those countries. Concretely, these individuals are neither. They are not ethnic Iberians, nor are they ethnic Jews. The attribution of nationality does not mean attribution of ethnicity and in this sense it is not worthwhile that they participate in statistics or references of ethnicity, mainly in Portugal and Spain, under the risk of distorting the statistical data of the modern Jewish population.

Cheers.

**Jovialis** · 01-01-21, 16:23

Originally Posted by Riverman

Romanians have strong Balkan and Roman influences, also strong Slavic ones and minor, but significant, more recent ones from various steppe people, Hungarians, Germans, Serbs and Bulgarians among others. Its in any case about more recent common ancestry than the Bronze Age with this feature, so admixture within historical times. The question is just in which direction it was going, from Romania or to Romania. Could be the general Vlach/Balkan cluster via Albanian ancestry?

I get French in Northern America on low confidence because some German-French relatives of ancestors moved to these communities.

I think it may be far fetched that this is an indication, but some speculate that the Apuli may have originated in Dacia.

**Jovialis** · 01-01-21, 16:26

The Apuli or Biefi were a Dacian tribe centered at the Dacian town Apulon (Latin Apulum) near what is now Alba Iulia in Transylvania, Romania.

Apuli has clear resemblance to Apulia, the ancient southeastern Italy region, which is believed to have been settled by Illyrian tribes (also named Apuli or Iapyges).

Linguists use it as an example for the similarities between Illyrian and Dacian language.[1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apuli

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacia#...acia_82_BC.png

**Jovialis** · 01-01-21, 16:35

Originally Posted by Jovialis

I think it may be far fetched that this is an indication, but some speculate that the Apuli may have originated in Dacia.

Though perhaps not too far fetched. I don't know of any Apuli samples, but I am fairly close to the Iron Age Bulgarian sample:

Distance to:	Jovialis
8.92001682	Balkans_IronAge:I5769_Bulgaria_IA

**Angela** · 01-01-21, 19:27

Originally Posted by Carlos

Perhaps in all this period they have already become Maghrebi Jews, otherwise they would have had to exercise a strong inbreeding and would have presented multiple diseases like the Jews of Mallorca. Perhaps the Muslim power has been permissive in the transit of Berber marriages to Sephardic Jews.

We have their autosomal analysis, Carlos.

You'll find a lot of nonsense on the net from the pre-genetic analysis days, but we now know a lot more.

"The study carried out by Behar et al. that analysed small samples of North African Jews (Libya (83); Morocco (149); Tunisia (37)) indicates that Jews from North Africa lack typically North African Hg M1 and U6 mtDNAs.^[13] Hence, according to the authors, the lack of U6 and M1 haplogroups among the North Africans renders the possibility of significant admixture, as between the local Arab and Berber populations with Jews, unlikely. The genetic evidence shows them to be distinct from Berber populations, but more similar to Ashkenazi Jewish populations.^{[13]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berber_Jews

Most of their ancestry is from the expelled Jews of Spain.

"Analysis of mitochondrial DNA of the Jewish populations of North Africa (Morocco, Tunisia, Libya) was the subject of further detailed study in 2008 by Doron Behar et al.^[40] The analysis concludes that Jews from this region do not share the haplogroups of the mitochondrial DNA haplogroups (M1 and U6) that are typical of the North African Berber and Arab populations. Similarly, while the frequency of haplogroups L, associated with sub-Saharan Africa, are present in approximately 20–25% at the Berber populations studied, these haplogroups are only present in 1.3%, 2.7% and 3.6% respectively of Jews from Morocco, Tunisia and Libya.^[40]Behar et al. conclude that it is unlikely that North African Jews have significant Arab, or Berber admixture, "consistent with social restrictions imposed by religious restrictions," or endogamy. This study also found genetic similarities between the Ashkenazi and North African Jews of European mitochondrial DNA pools, but differences between both of these of the diaspora and Jews from the Middle East.^[40]}

**Salento** · 01-01-21, 20:27

Originally Posted by Jovialis

Though perhaps not too far fetched. I don't know of any Apuli samples, but I am fairly close to the Iron Age Bulgarian sample:

Distance to:	Jovialis
8.92001682	Balkans_IronAge:I5769_Bulgaria_IA

... mine

Distance to:	S_23v5_dod13

9.50521436

_Bulgaria_IA_:I5769

Distance to:	S_Comb_dodK13

9.56978579

_Bulgaria_IA_:I5769

**Salento** · 01-01-21, 20:47

... they assigned Ashkenazi knowing the lack of DNA Matches, ... same thing with West Asia.

**Jovialis** · 01-01-21, 20:57

Here is my distance to the Dodecad G13 version:

Distance to:	Jovialis
8.34441130	Bulgaria_IA:Mathieson_et_al_2018:I5769

**Carlos** · 01-01-21, 21:34

Originally Posted by Angela

We have their autosomal analysis, Carlos.

You'll find a lot of nonsense on the net from the pre-genetic analysis days, but we now know a lot more.

"The study carried out by Behar et al. that analysed small samples of North African Jews (Libya (83); Morocco (149); Tunisia (37)) indicates that Jews from North Africa lack typically North African Hg M1 and U6 mtDNAs.^[13] Hence, according to the authors, the lack of U6 and M1 haplogroups among the North Africans renders the possibility of significant admixture, as between the local Arab and Berber populations with Jews, unlikely. The genetic evidence shows them to be distinct from Berber populations, but more similar to Ashkenazi Jewish populations.^{[13]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berber_Jews

Most of their ancestry is from the expelled Jews of Spain.

"Analysis of mitochondrial DNA of the Jewish populations of North Africa (Morocco, Tunisia, Libya) was the subject of further detailed study in 2008 by Doron Behar et al.^[40] The analysis concludes that Jews from this region do not share the haplogroups of the mitochondrial DNA haplogroups (M1 and U6) that are typical of the North African Berber and Arab populations. Similarly, while the frequency of haplogroups L, associated with sub-Saharan Africa, are present in approximately 20–25% at the Berber populations studied, these haplogroups are only present in 1.3%, 2.7% and 3.6% respectively of Jews from Morocco, Tunisia and Libya.^[40]Behar et al. conclude that it is unlikely that North African Jews have significant Arab, or Berber admixture, "consistent with social restrictions imposed by religious restrictions," or endogamy. This study also found genetic similarities between the Ashkenazi and North African Jews of European mitochondrial DNA pools, but differences between both of these of the diaspora and Jews from the Middle East.^[40]}

Since 1990, several genetic studies of Jewish populations have been conducted

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jud%C3%ADos_bereberes

We see other studies from 2008, 2013 and until 2021 it has rained.

I understand that it may be hard to let go of what was taken for granted based on studies from 10 or 20 years ago or maybe more, but these days we are seeing how other genetic studies for other subjects from 10, 20 years ago are turning into wet paper.

**torzio** · 01-01-21, 21:41

Originally Posted by Jovialis

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacia#...acia_82_BC.png

If you check all italian papers , be them old or newer ones....they all state the Apuli are the same as the Liburnians ....either a sub branch or related

https://books.google.com.au/books?id...iburni&f=false

it comes to being , when the Liburnians landed in Picene ( marche ) in circa 1000BC, the Iapygian tribes that inhabited Apulia during the first millennium BC – the Daunians in the North, the Peucetians in the Centre, as well as the Messapians in the South.^[7]^[8]at the same time

.................................................. ........

III Veneti, Piceni e Apuli: una “Magna Illyria”? pag. 14 3 ... La Krka li divideva dai Liburni che originariamente abitavano la Dalmazia settentrionale, a settentrione ...

from a new author /scholar

POPOLI, PAESI E CITTA’ DEL MEDITERRANEO di EMILIO BENVENUTO

by rosaria.pullo

https://en.calameo.com/read/000150262f61a760a117a

**Salento** · 02-01-21, 04:13

Originally Posted by torzio

If you check all italian papers , be them old or newer ones....they all state the Apuli are the same as the Liburnians ....either a sub branch or related

https://books.google.com.au/books?id...iburni&f=false

it comes to being , when the Liburnians landed in Picene ( marche ) in circa 1000BC, the Iapygian tribes that inhabited Apulia during the first millennium BC – the Daunians in the North, the Peucetians in the Centre, as well as the Messapians in the South.^[7]^[8]at the same time

.................................................. ........

III Veneti, Piceni e Apuli: una “Magna Illyria”? pag. 14 3 ... La Krka li divideva dai Liburni che originariamente abitavano la Dalmazia settentrionale, a settentrione ...

from a new author /scholar

POPOLI, PAESI E CITTA’ DEL MEDITERRANEO di EMILIO BENVENUTO

by rosaria.pullo

https://en.calameo.com/read/000150262f61a760a117a

... as of now only 3 MTA members get this, ...
... I posted an older lower deep dive rank before, but went up and has been steady for a while, ... :

and I3313 could be related to I5769

**torzio** · 02-01-21, 07:22

Originally Posted by Salento

... as of now only 3 MTA members get this, ...
... I posted an older lower deep dive rank before, but went up and has been steady for a while, ... :

and I3313 could be related to I5769

Do I win ?!

5. Illyrian / Dalmatian
1200 BC - Genetic Distance: 8.937 - I3313
Top 99 % match vs all users

..........................................

i am waiting for the 32 samples to be analyzed from this site
http://isaw.nyu.edu:8080/isaw/librar...avation-loewen

**torzio** · 02-01-21, 07:48

@ salento

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxw5l6-1GOE

An Umbrian-Sabellic people born from the fusion of different elements, including the mysterious Liburnian people of the eastern shore of the Adriatic, the Picenians for a long time played a fundamental role in the development of the cultures of Central Italy,

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