New MyHeritage update (groups)

**christa** · 06-01-21, 00:54

Exact. It can be due to several reasons.

**torzio** · 06-01-21, 01:05

Originally Posted by Salento

that surname originated in Florence, was a nickname for Clever and knowledgeable.
It is one of the most common surnames in Italy.

deleted as irrelevant

**torzio** · 06-01-21, 01:09

deleted as irrelevant

**torzio** · 06-01-21, 01:12

Originally Posted by bigsnake49

When we went to Italy in 2019, we stayed at a B&B that was a a working olive estate outside of Rossano in Calabria (doing a bit of agroturismo). The family that owned it, their surname was Greco. With that surname you would expect they were Greek but actually they were Serbian and had owned the estate since the 1200s. I would think that in the Middle Ages there might have been some population movement to Italy from the Balkans.

deleted as irrelevant

**torzio** · 06-01-21, 01:23

Originally Posted by Stuvanè

"Greco" is a surname that more broadly indicates a Balkan origin, beyond the fact that the groups arrived were actually ethnic Greeks, Albanians or Southern Slavs...

https://ganino.com/cognomi_italiani_g

The major cause was the Ottoman advance, but even earlier there were movements and arrivals of those people along the Adriatic coast, mostly employed then as workers, artisans, shepherds and farmers. For some of them we know almost names and surnames (I'm sorry: the contribution is a scan of an old paper in Italian)

http://rsa.storiaagricoltura.it/pdfsito/59_3.pdf

The article seems to be about

La riva degli Schiavoni

La riva prende il suo nome dai mercanti provenienti dalla Dalmazia

Place where Dalmatian merchants resided ............it is to the left of the Doge palace over the first bridge

Riva = Foreshore
Schiavoni does not initially mean slavs, but the term was initially applied to Dalmatians.......and not Croats , as Croats where termed differently

The Doge personnel guards where always 100% from Dalmatia, most taken from excess sons of the merchants at Riva Degli Schiavoni

**Salento** · 06-01-21, 01:36

Though there are so many families, people hire professionals to figure it out. They pay a lot of money.

**torzio** · 06-01-21, 01:51

Originally Posted by Salento

Though there are so many families, people hire professionals to figure it out. They pay a lot of money.

deleted as irrelevant

**christa** · 06-01-21, 02:00

Originally Posted by Salento

Though there are so many families, people hire professionals to figure it out. They pay a lot of money.

Could you done your family tree yourself without professionals. I have help friends in the pass.

**Stuvanè** · 06-01-21, 02:07

Originally Posted by torzio

The article seems to be about

La riva degli Schiavoni

La riva prende il suo nome dai mercanti provenienti dalla Dalmazia

Place where Dalmatian merchants resided ............it is to the left of the Doge palace over the first bridge

Riva = Foreshore
Schiavoni does not initially mean slavs, but the term was initially applied to Dalmatians.......and not Croats , as Croats where termed differently

The Doge personnel guards where always 100% from Dalmatia, most taken from excess sons of the merchants at Riva Degli Schiavoni

The article comes from this magazine

http://rsa.storiaagricoltura.it/scheda.asp?IDF=59&IDS=3

It specifically concerns the migrations of groups of Albanians and Slavs in the Marche at the end of the Middle Ages and in the early modern age, based on archival evidence.
As for the "Schiavoni" mentioned here, the author refers not only to Dalmatians and the inhabitants of the coast, but also to people from the interior: in Senigallia, at the beginning of the 15th century, individuals originating from Zagreb and Bosnians are reported (see page 9 of the article)

In any case, even if it is starting to be a fairly dated publication, this is one of the texts that has best debated the issue (unfortunately I don't think it is more commercially available, if not used, but it should be available in a good university library)

https://books.google.it/books/about/...AJ&redir_esc=y

**Salento** · 06-01-21, 02:17

Originally Posted by christa

Could you done your family tree yourself without professionals. I have had friends in the pass.

it depends on how many Bastard sons there are in a family.

surnames could be relatives, ... or not.

**Salento** · 06-01-21, 02:29

Bari genetic group common surnames:

**Salento** · 06-01-21, 03:02

Russo means Russian, Lorusso - the Russian, Franco - french related or a Franco (Frank barbarian)

**christa** · 06-01-21, 03:19

I also thought so in the past , but then, in all ancient register that I have consulted Russo and Lorusso were the dialect form in South Italy of Rosso (red) , maybe for people of red hair. Indeed Rossi is the main surname for all Italy and in South is Russo and Lorusso ( Lo Russo = Il Rosso= the Red).
The same person was called with the surname Rosso and Russo in different document, in 1500s and 1600s.
Many surnames change with the dialect of different regions.

Maybe someone could be or Russian origin, but most Russo are simply the variant of Rosso/i.

**Salento** · 06-01-21, 03:33

then we’ll agree that people with surnames that evoke a place do not necessarily originate from that place.

**torzio** · 06-01-21, 05:30

Originally Posted by Stuvanè

The article comes from this magazine

http://rsa.storiaagricoltura.it/scheda.asp?IDF=59&IDS=3

It specifically concerns the migrations of groups of Albanians and Slavs in the Marche at the end of the Middle Ages and in the early modern age, based on archival evidence.
As for the "Schiavoni" mentioned here, the author refers not only to Dalmatians and the inhabitants of the coast, but also to people from the interior: in Senigallia, at the beginning of the 15th century, individuals originating from Zagreb and Bosnians are reported (see page 9 of the article)

In any case, even if it is starting to be a fairly dated publication, this is one of the texts that has best debated the issue (unfortunately I don't think it is more commercially available, if not used, but it should be available in a good university library)

https://books.google.it/books/about/...AJ&redir_esc=y

Far enough .............Schiavoni in the early days meant the non-slavic Dalmatians that spoke the Vegliot Dalmatian dialect became extinct in the 19th century. A mix of Roman Latin and old Venetian .

Croatians where always called Croati and never anything else..........every croatian men when hired as horsemen for venetian land forces where noted as croati

Bosnians had another term or Venice never mentioned them or stated them as a mix of Avars and Slavs

IMO.........old Dalmatians was the main branch of many "Illyrian" tribes, who later mixed with italic people coming from italy under the Roman empire , to create a mixed language ........then fell under Hungaria and after a 400 years of an on-off war between Venice and Hungary, fell to Venice............, Venice took ownership in 1430ish to 1797 .......its this period the Vegliot took hold

**Stuvanè** · 06-01-21, 13:06

Originally Posted by torzio

Far enough .............Schiavoni in the early days meant the non-slavic Dalmatians that spoke the Vegliot Dalmatian dialect became extinct in the 19th century. A mix of Roman Latin and old Venetian .

Croatians where always called Croati and never anything else..........every croatian men when hired as horsemen for venetian land forces where noted as croati

Bosnians had another term or Venice never mentioned them or stated them as a mix of Avars and Slavs

IMO.........old Dalmatians was the main branch of many "Illyrian" tribes, who later mixed with italic people coming from italy under the Roman empire , to create a mixed language ........then fell under Hungaria and after a 400 years of an on-off war between Venice and Hungary, fell to Venice............, Venice took ownership in 1430ish to 1797 .......its this period the Vegliot took hold

@Torzio,

I find it hard to understand the turn this speech is taking: does anyone have the exclusive monopoly on the use of the term "Schiavoni"?

Nobody is disputing what happened in Venice and its surroundings. The Venetians may have also used more precise terminologies since they had more assiduous relations with those peoples and could afford to distinguish them. Good for them.

Elsewhere - I cited a search for documents relating to the Marches - "Schiavoni" was used in a broader sense and could concern both Dalmatians more or less Latinized as well as the Slavs of the Balkan hinterland. In the examples cited we speak of individuals coming from Zara ("Giara" / "Jadra" or "Segna" = Senj) as from Zagreb. Evidently in the Marche they did not need to split the hair with the immigrant registry, but only to have work arms. See this PhD thesis, pp. 129-130 http://amsdottorato.unibo.it/7989/1/...iulia_tesi.pdf

I didn't make up this thing. It's a terminology found in archival documents studied by researchers. If anyone wants to contest it, you have to contact the researchers and make the necessary objections, always with documents in hand

**Duarte** · 06-01-21, 16:49

Γρηγόριος (Gregorios) -> Gregorius -> Gregory -> Gregor -> Mac Griogair -> MacGregor -> McGregor

**torzio** · 06-01-21, 17:19

Originally Posted by Stuvanè

@Torzio,

I find it hard to understand the turn this speech is taking: does anyone have the exclusive monopoly on the use of the term "Schiavoni"?

Nobody is disputing what happened in Venice and its surroundings. The Venetians may have also used more precise terminologies since they had more assiduous relations with those peoples and could afford to distinguish them. Good for them.

Elsewhere - I cited a search for documents relating to the Marches - "Schiavoni" was used in a broader sense and could concern both Dalmatians more or less Latinized as well as the Slavs of the Balkan hinterland. In the examples cited we speak of individuals coming from Zara ("Giara" / "Jadra" or "Segna" = Senj) as from Zagreb. Evidently in the Marche they did not need to split the hair with the immigrant registry, but only to have work arms. See this PhD thesis, pp. 129-130 http://amsdottorato.unibo.it/7989/1/...iulia_tesi.pdf

I didn't make up this thing. It's a terminology found in archival documents studied by researchers. If anyone wants to contest it, you have to contact the researchers and make the necessary objections, always with documents in hand

The terminology grew over time by Italian scholars outside of NorthEast Italy ( usually done by the papal states scholars ) to try to link the italian word for slav and the term Schiavoni
as being the same. They tried to say that Dalmatians where also Slavs ( even though Dalmatians where there hundreds of years before the slavs arrived in the 6th/7th centuries )...........Initially the first slavs that arrived on the coast was along modern montenegro the duchies of Zeta and Hum being 2 that I recall ( they where a mix of mainly croats and serbs with some very small % of bosnians )

It all depends on the period in question...............different people arrived at certain places in time from different areas of the world.........If we want to talk about the marche ( picene lands ) from late bronze age, then all italian studies will tell you that the area was colonised by the Liburnians .............If you want a different period in time, then it could be another group of people.

In regards to Zara , a main Venetian port , which was the only port any slav could come to Venice, while Dalmatians could come to venice from other ports............there is a very clear distinction of Dalmatians and slavs in Venetian texts ( I checked some venetian archives in 2006 )...........If you have read something else from another period of time , then I am willing to check it out

I don't recall any Marche ports under Venice for any period...........Rimini and Ravenna yes, some apulian ports in 1480 ish yes ............Marche iirc was papal lands

I will read your very interesting attachment ...........but it seems purely a paper of trading in the adriatic from a quick view..........

**Carlos** · 06-01-21, 19:16

I was observing the evolution of these results and at one point I said to myself, this map looks familiar, I've seen it before, but I couldn't remember where, how or when, since history is sometimes as boring to me as religion. Then I realized the similarities with the map of the Spanish Empire; even the Philippines and Japan, the four Sicilies, we go all the way; although I also observe in detail that it is marked in Australia and the results with Brazil and Pakistan Afghanistan, it seems as if there is also a bit of the Portuguese and British Empire.

Soft version having chained, gagged and ego-bound

**Duarte** · 06-01-21, 22:26

Originally Posted by Carlos

I was observing the evolution of these results and at one point I said to myself, this map looks familiar, I've seen it before, but I couldn't remember where, how or when, since history is sometimes as boring to me as religion. Then I realized the similarities with the map of the Spanish Empire; even the Philippines and Japan, the four Sicilies, we go all the way; although I also observe in detail that it is marked in Australia and the results with Brazil and Pakistan Afghanistan, it seems as if there is also a bit of the Portuguese and British Empire.

Soft version having chained, gagged and ego-bound

Although MH qualifies the ethnic group Brazil ID 5294 as Iberian, it is also attributed some North Italian ancestry to this ethnicity. Looking at this ethnicity on the world map, we can identify also some coincidences with the Portuguese Empire, mainly between 1900-1950.

**Carlos** · 07-01-21, 02:25

^^
It is curious that I do not name the Spaniards because on my map Brazil 1850-1900 begins to appear, it is possible that the agorithm has not distinguished them lol

What does happen to me is that every time I compare last names the agorithm is still questioned with a question mark over Guatemala, I even have a death in Guatemala.

Is it known if Monteczuma's wife was Mayan or if the Mayans came to the Aztec elite? because I have a Spanish nobility with royal Aztec blood very close to the towns where I am originally from

**Duarte** · 07-01-21, 02:57

Originally Posted by Carlos

^^
It is curious that I do not name the Spaniards because on my map Brazil 1850-1900 begins to appear, it is possible that the agorithm has not distinguished them lol

What does happen to me is that every time I compare last names the agorithm is still questioned with a question mark over Guatemala, I even have a death in Guatemala.

Is it known if Monteczuma's wife was Mayan or if the Mayans came to the Aztec elite? because I have a Spanish nobility with royal Aztec blood very close to the towns where I am originally from

The history of ‘Ducado de Moctezuma de Tultengo’ and the hereditary title of Spanish nobility ‘Duque de Moctezuma de Tultengo’ is very interesting.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke...ma_de_Tultengo

**Carlos** · 07-01-21, 15:30

The lineage of the Mexica Emperor Moctezuma has spread over the centuries and these days it is still possible to find some of his many descendants.

Among Moctezuma's daughters, the most important was Tecuichpo Ixcaxochitzin, who would later be called Isabel de Moctezuma by Hernán Cortés and the Spaniards. Princess Mexica, after being "stolen" by Cortés and taken to Spain, married Spanish men three times and had six children in total. She also had one more daughter whom she did not want to recognize and whose father was none other than Hernán Cortés. Isabella was considered the legitimate descendant of Montezuma and this was a determining factor in the Spanish Crown's awarding the title of Count of Miravalle to her offspring.

It is also worth mentioning, as a curious fact, that after her marriage to the Spaniard Alonso de Grado, the "Visitor of the Indians", Isabel received as a wedding gift the commission from Tacuba, which years later would become the Hacienda de los Morales and behind which there is a peculiar history.

After receiving the Spanish noble title of Miravalle County, the descendants of Isabel de Moctezuma have remained in Spain as part of the nobility. In terms of the recent history of this lineage, María del Carmen Enríquez de Luna y del Mazo remained as Countess of Miravalle until her death in November 2014. The vacancy will be filled by her firstborn daughter, named after her mother, who, after applying for the title that rightfully belongs to her, is waiting to become the 13th Countess of Miravalle.

https://mxcity.mx/2016/05/quienes-do...tes-moctezuma/

Carmen Ruiz Enríquez de Luna; Countess of Miravalle

José Miguel Carrillo de Albornoz y Muñoz de San Pedro, Viscount of Torre Hidalgo, arrives impeccably to the appointment. In the Palace of Toledo-Moctezuma, in Cáceres, they know him. It is now the seat of the Provincial Historical Archive, but for centuries it belonged to his ancestors and he has been visiting it since he was a child.

The family history of this Moctezuma from Cáceres is fascinating. It begins, at some point, with Moctezuma Xocoyotzin, who governed the Mexicas when in 1519 Hernán Cortés' men arrived on the beaches of present-day Veracruz. Powerful, superstitious and much feared, Moctezuma -whose first biography the viscount published- believes himself to be a demigod.

Carrillo de Albornoz (Cáceres, 1959) with the family tree that connects him to the Aztec emperor, in his house, the Palacio de Las Seguras

https://www.elmundo.es/cronica/2019/...3068b457d.html

**Duarte** · 08-01-21, 17:45

@Salento @Carlos
Who are they?

I prefer not to know.

What does your oracle say, Carlos?

**Salento** · 08-01-21, 22:19

those are the Ancestral places of origin of the Italian Diasporas in Brasile,

... don’t tell Duarte, ... he doesn’t want to know :)

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