Massive migrations from Steppes to Bronze Age India is a myth

[Shahmiri]

I think I talked about it earlier (Indo-European migrations). Croats have a lot of similar words with Sanskrit words. This mean that the common ancestors of the Croats (and other Slavs) and Sanskrit speaking peoples lived in one house.

This house is Russian steppe and carriers are R1a speaking peoples (posible and R1b)

Map

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml

Consequently, this means that the Slavic language is older than Sanskrit, for now at least 2,000 BC.

Wikipedia:

"Proto-Slavic is estimated on archaeological and glottochronological criteria to have occurred sometime in the period 1500–1000 BCE"

Possible expansion of Indo-European languages according to the Kurgan hypothesis​

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages#/media/File:IE5500BP.png

This would probably be the real time and formation of the Slavic language(3,500 BC). Interestingly, many words which existed then(if we base it on Sanskrit) are similar with today's words.

The oldest known Slavic language is the Old Church Slavonic which dates back to the 9th century AD.

 

[hrvat22]

The oldest known Slavic language is the Old Church Slavonic which dates back to the 9th century AD.

Yes, and these Old Church Slavonic words from 9th century AD were entered into Sanskrit 2,000 BC. Therefore, this is not possible. Only possibility is that the carriers of R1a bring Slavic words to Sanskrit and this means that the common language ie Slavic is even older than Sanskrit.

 

[johen]

Yes, and these Old Church Slavonic words from 9th century AD were entered into Sanskrit 2,000 BC. Therefore, this is not possible. Only possibility is that the carriers of R1a bring Slavic words to Sanskrit and this means that the common language ie Slavic is even older than Sanskrit.

I think the only fact is that the R1a(z93) originated in Altai with culture like zeus (sunhead and thunderbolt/snake concept), third eye and etc. That migration makes Hindu civilization to be much similar to Mayan. CWC did not runover the Ural mountain archaeologically and anthropologically.

This altai petroglyph represents "sky"

okunevo third eye:

okunevo sunhead/ snake culture

 

[Shahmiri]

Yes, and these Old Church Slavonic words from 9th century AD were entered into Sanskrit 2,000 BC. Therefore, this is not possible. Only possibility is that the carriers of R1a bring Slavic words to Sanskrit and this means that the common language ie Slavic is even older than Sanskrit.

In the ancient Persian sources the original land of Slavs was in Harahvait (Arachosia) in modern Afghanistan, in Shahnameh Saklab (land of Slavs) was actually a large region in the east of Iran, neighbor to Chin (China) and Hind (India): http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/shahnameh/page23.htm

Troops from Chaghan and Chin, Saklab and Hind

With Shamiran from Shakn, Shangul from Hind, The king of Sind and from Saklab Kundur.

I will not leave a man from Chin, Saklab,

Cleave ye the ranks of Chin and of Saklab;

Will bring a host from Hind, Saklab, and Chin?

Of Siyawush, that Hind, Shingan, Saklab,

Of Chin and of Saklab have fought Iran

Brought from the marches of Saklab and Chin

Yet those from Shakn, Kashan, Saklab, and Hind

When such an army hath arrived from Chin, Saklab, Khatlan, and from our own Piran,

From Hind, Saklab, Hart, and from Pahlav
...

The title of Saklab (Slavic) kings was Kundur (Old Church Slavonic kŭnędzĭ).

 

[hrvat22]

In the ancient Persian sources the original land of Slavs was in Harahvait (Arachosia) in modern Afghanistan, in Shahnameh Saklab (land of Slavs) was actually a large region in the east of Iran, neighbor to Chin (China) and Hind (India): http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/shahnameh/page23.htm

Troops from Chaghan and Chin, Saklab and Hind

With Shamiran from Shakn, Shangul from Hind, The king of Sind and from Saklab Kundur.

I will not leave a man from Chin, Saklab,

Cleave ye the ranks of Chin and of Saklab;

Will bring a host from Hind, Saklab, and Chin?

Of Siyawush, that Hind, Shingan, Saklab,

Of Chin and of Saklab have fought Iran

Brought from the marches of Saklab and Chin

Yet those from Shakn, Kashan, Saklab, and Hind

When such an army hath arrived from Chin, Saklab, Khatlan, and from our own Piran,

From Hind, Saklab, Hart, and from Pahlav
...

The title of Saklab (Slavic) kings was Kundur (Old Church Slavonic kŭnędzĭ).

These are historical records and various theories which don't mean much for now. What we know specifically is that:

"Sanskrit belongs to the Indo-European family of languages. It is one of the three earliest ancient documented languages that arose from a common root language now referred to as Proto-Indo-European language" "Vedic Sanskrit (c. 1500–500 BCE)".

Slavic words ie ​Proto Indo European words to Sanskrit are brought by peoples with R1a and here we have their direction of migration.

https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/R1a_migration_map.jpg

Maybe R1a peoples coming to Iran etc from modern Afghanistan but they also carry Slavic words with them from their ancestral homeland in the Russian steppes. This means that Slavic words and language are older that Sanskrit.


Another thing would be that we have migrations in the opposite direction,(1500 BCE) but for now direction of migration is west-east.

 

[hrvat22]

I think the only fact is that the R1a(z93) originated in Altai with culture like zeus (sunhead and thunderbolt/snake concept), third eye and etc. That migration makes Hindu civilization to be much similar to Mayan. CWC did not runover the Ural mountain archaeologically and anthropologically.

It doesn't matter which branch of R1a coming to Iran, etc. For now, R1a(peoples) is the only candidate for the source of Slavic etc words in Sanskrit. And they coming to Iran etc according to the map above, 1700 BC.

For now according to YFull (formed 4900 ybp, TMRCA 4500 ybp) this is time when common ancestors(ancestor) of speakers of Sanskrit and Slavic lives and who in the Russian steppe at that time speaks the Slavic language.

 

[Shahmiri]

These are historical records and various theories which don't mean much for now. What we know specifically is that:

"Sanskrit belongs to the Indo-European family of languages. It is one of the three earliest ancient documented languages that arose from a common root language now referred to as Proto-Indo-European language" "Vedic Sanskrit (c. 1500–500 BCE)".

Slavic words ie ​Proto Indo European words to Sanskrit are brought by peoples with R1a and here we have their direction of migration.

https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/R1a_migration_map.jpg

Maybe R1a peoples coming to Iran etc from modern Afghanistan but they also carry Slavic words with them from their ancestral homeland in the Russian steppes. This means that Slavic words and language are older that Sanskrit.


Another thing would be that we have migrations in the opposite direction,(1500 BCE) but for now direction of migration is west-east.

So you talk about a migration to India in the Bronze Age? As Dr. Niraj Rai said it just a myth, R1a didn't exist in India before 500 BC.

 

[hrvat22]

So you talk about a migration to India in the Bronze Age? As Dr. Niraj Rai said it just a myth, R1a didn't exist in India before 500 BC.

Ok, this is important facts. We must first see scientific paper which confirms this.

For now we have this map
https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/R1a_migration_map.jpg

This

[FONT=&quot] Indo-European is often associated with northern Indian populations, Pakistan and Bangladesh, and a putative arrival in South Asia from Southwest Asia ~3.5 ka (the so-called “Indo-Aryan invasions”) has been frequently connected with the origins of the caste system[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The indigenous South Asian subclades are too young to signal Early Neolithic dispersals from Iran, and strongly support Bronze Age incursions from Central Asia. The derived R1a-Z93 and the further derived R1a-Z94 subclades harbour the bulk of Central and South Asian R1a lineages [/FONT][FONT=&quot]as well as including some Russian and European lineages, and have been variously dated to 5.6 [4.0;7.3] ka[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

Altogether, therefore, the recently refined Y-chromosome tree strongly suggests that R1a is indeed a highly plausible marker for the long-contested Bronze Age spread of Indo-Aryan speakers into South Asia, although dated aDNA evidence will be needed for a precise estimate of its arrival in various parts of the Subcontinent

[FONT=&quot]Although they are closely related, suggesting they likely spread from a single Central Asian source pool, there do seem to be at least three and probably more R1a founder clades within the Subcontinent [[/FONT]58[FONT=&quot]], consistent with multiple waves of arrival.[/FONT]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5364613/

This

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z93/

This

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tocharians#/media/File:Indo-European_migrations.jpg

This

The presence of exclusively R1a-Z93 subclades and the lack of R1b-M269 samples is compatible with the expansion of R1a-Z93 into the area with Proto-Tocharians, at the turn of the 3rd-2nd millennium BC

https://indo-european.eu/2018/09/a-...isolated-populations-in-xinjiang-using-y-snp/

 

[Shahmiri]

Ok, this is important facts. We must first see scientific paper which confirms this.

For now we have this map
https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/R1a_migration_map.jpg

This









https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5364613/

This

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z93/

This

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tocharians#/media/File:Indo-European_migrations.jpg

This



https://indo-european.eu/2018/09/a-...isolated-populations-in-xinjiang-using-y-snp/

Those are unproven theories, R1a has never been found in Bronze Age India.

 

[hrvat22]

Those are unproven theories, R1a has never been found in Bronze Age India.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamnaya_culture#/media/File:Yamnaya-related_migrations.jpg

For now, my theory has been confirmed, at least as far as direction of migration is concerned. And whether Slavic words bring R1a or R1b peoples we will know this more accurately in the future. What is certain is that no one from Iran comes to the Proto-Slavic area and brings Sanskrit words to Slavic languages.

Gray and Atkinson's (2003) application of language-tree divergence analysis supports a genetic relationship between the Baltic and Slavic languages, dating the split of the family to about 1400 BCE

At that time no one comes to Ukraine or common Balto-Slavic area and bring Sanskrit words. These common words are spoken in a common house 3300–2600 BC ago and this place is the Russian steppe.

Studies also point to the strong presence of Yamnaya descent in the current nations of South Asia, especially in groups that are referred to as Indo-Aryans

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamnaya_culture#Central_and_South_Asia

 

[Shahmiri]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamnaya_culture#/media/File:Yamnaya-related_migrations.jpg

For now, my theory has been confirmed, at least as far as direction of migration is concerned. And whether Slavic words bring R1a or R1b peoples we will know this more accurately in the future. What is certain is that no one from Iran comes to the Proto-Slavic area and brings Sanskrit words to Slavic languages.




At that time no one comes to Ukraine or common Balto-Slavic area and bring Sanskrit words. These common words are spoken in a common house 3300–2600 BC ago and this place is the Russian steppe.




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamnaya_culture#Central_and_South_Asia

Where was the Proto-Slavic area? Some Iranian-speaking people, like Scythians and Sarmatians had migrated to the east of Europe.

 

[johen]

Where was the Proto-Slavic area? Some Iranian-speaking people, like Scythians and Sarmatians had migrated to the east of Europe.

And R1a HUN. The steppe people resided in the north India also. Moreover EHG-like WSHG and CHG were already in south asia before bronze age. I don’t understand why they tried to connect steppe admixture to MODERN south asian. And there is no evidence the steppe admixture are related to PIE. I think they might have a strong genetic evidence that the steppe admixture has something to do with PIE. Did they have already some result of circle B?

Anyway we need aDNA of sky God in Circle B, Sanauli, and china bronze for PIE:

anthropomorph in sanauli, india:

chinese bronze script character for Tian ​天, meaning "sky"

This altai petroglyph

 

[hrvat22]

Where was the Proto-Slavic area? Some Iranian-speaking people, like Scythians and Sarmatians had migrated to the east of Europe.

They migrated later and they brought Iranian languages not Sanskrit language.

Among Indo-European languages, Lithuanian is conservative in some aspects of its grammar and phonology, retaining archaic features otherwise found only in ancient languages such as Sanskrit^[

For this reason, it is an important source for the reconstruction of the Proto-Indo-European language

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuanian_language#History

The Lithuanian language is one of the oldest languages in the world. “Anyone wishing to hear how Indo-Europeans spoke should come and listen to a Lithuanian peasant

The ancient Balts were settled and they were not inclined to mix with other tribes, so their languages maintained their ancient form

The ancestors of today’s speakers of Indo-European languages spoke a single language, which linguists call Proto-Indo-European (PIE). The scholarly consensus is that Lithuanian is the language that has retained most of the features of the Protolanguage, i.e. it is characterised by a very ancient linguistic structure: declensions (of nouns, adjectives and pronouns), short and long vowels, diphthongs, etc.

https://eurotradus.eu/7-facts-about-the-lithuanian-language/

Therefore no one came from Iran and teaches Lithuanians how to speak. This is the same situation as in the Croatian case. They all speak same language together in the Russian steppe and then part of them migrates to the east and bring Sanskrit or creates Sanskrit somewhere in Iran and India, while towards the west they speak and bring Slavic languages. This is the only logical explanation and for the final confirmation we need archaeogenetics.

 

[hrvat22]

Here we have proposed tree of Indo-European languages from Maciamo (Eupedia)

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/36117-My-proposed-tree-of-Indo-European-languages?styleid=41


While my proposed tree of Indo-European languages is actualy Slavic based Proto-Indo-European language as the oldest original language. And his mark(on this tree) Northwestern R1a 417 is actuallyin the first position on the tree ie Indo-European R1b L23.

 

[Shahmiri]

They migrated later and they brought Iranian languages not Sanskrit language. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuanian_language#Historyhttps://eurotradus.eu/7-facts-about-the-lithuanian-language/Therefore no one came from Iran and teaches Lithuanians how to speak. This is the same situation as in the Croatian case. They all speak same language together in the Russian steppe and then part of them migrates to the east and bring Sanskrit or creates Sanskrit somewhere in Iran and India, while towards the west they speak and bring Slavic languages. This is the only logical explanation and for the final confirmation we need archaeogenetics.

This thread about the genetic studies of Indian geneticists who say migrations from the Russian steppe to Bronze Age India is just a myth, so it is better that we talk about historical facts, not myths.

 

[Gnarl]

Razib Khan mentions it. He has Ancestral North Indians as 30 % Sintasha, 70 % Indus Valley People. Given the likely population difference and that the Sintasha may have been the migrants or some people with a Sintasha component may have been, that seem massive to me.

 

[Shahmiri]

Razib Khan mentions it. He has Ancestral North Indians as 30 % Sintasha, 70 % Indus Valley People. Given the likely population difference and that the Sintasha may have been the migrants or some people with a Sintasha component may have been, that seem massive to me.

As Dr. Rai said, without genetic evidences these are just myths, Narasimhan has just found one R1a in the Swat Valley in the north of Pakistan which dates back to 900 BC, another one dates back to 500 BC, whereas we know an offshoot of Indian culture existed in Mitanni kingdom in the north of Syria in 1600 BC.

 

[johen]

Their

Razib Khan mentions it. He has Ancestral North Indians as 30 % Sintasha, 70 % Indus Valley People. Given the likely population difference and that the Sintasha may have been the migrants or some people with a Sintasha component may have been, that seem massive to me.

I think their migration seems to be very strange:

just walking migration of WSHG vs chariot migration all the way to the altai and continuing on the mountain corridor



vs

 

[Cpluskx]

One way or another, 10-15% steppe ancestry is massive for India because of its population size. Its population was probably at least 10x of Anatolia during the migrations but you see less steppe in Anatolia until the Turks.

 

[johen]

One way or another, 10-15% steppe ancestry is massive for India because of its population size. Its population was probably at least 10x of Anatolia during the migrations but you see less steppe in Anatolia until the Turks.

I think there is no facts that the steppe components originated in bronze age. Moreover one foot of andronovo people did not enter south asia. We need lots of DNA of siberia and central asia in the middle of south asia and east europe to reach a conclusion. Genetics is now on a very early stage, hence, it is not good to think yamna has a patent of the steppe component.

I think genetist might have a same mistake as russian anthropologist did. When cromagnon type skulls suddenly appeared in europe and siberia/central asia, they called them as protoeuropid(or paleo europid) and are making people (even scholar) think that they are all related with modern european. However, it is proved now that the cromagnon has nothing to do with modern people with anthro/ genetic data.

We need more results WITH FAIRNESS. Really Long way to go.