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Thread: Basal Eurasian in 25,000 yo site?

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I agree, perhaps E was brought there with Basal Eurasians, before the arrival of ANA, that led to the ethnogenesis of Natufians. Nevertheless, I recall all Natufians were a form of E.
    I think Natufians brought it up to the Northern Levante, where in the mix with local foragers the ancestors of ANF came up, with the Natufian paternal and autosomal contribution as a minority element, which was brought over to Europe by Cardial Ware in particular. Seems to be the most parsimonious route.

    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    I thought that Cruciani (2007) located the 'birth' of E in Libya/Egypt. My subbranche E-V22 was born about the twilight of the Egyptian civilization....The desert was developing and the people concentrated in the Nile strip. What would be a reason to revise that?
    If you read up on the theories at that time (2007), you will find out that many being outdated by now. However, Libya and especially Egypt is still a good bet, its just not known yet. At that time we didn't know about Basal Eurasians, we had no Natufians and Early Neolithics, the sampling of the living populations was much worse, with much less E from Arabia in particular and not as much known about the migration paths in general. So while I wouldn't say its wrong, we just don't know for sure and there are plausible alternatives.

  2. #52
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
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    There is also the back-to-africa migration from the Near East that further proliferated E in Africa.

  3. #53
    Regular Member kingjohn's Avatar
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    I thought that Cruciani (2007) located the 'birth' of E in Libya/Egypt. My subbranche E-V22 was born about the twilight of the Egyptian civilization....The desert was developing and the people concentrated in the Nile strip. What would be a reason to revise that?

    out of all the e-m78 branches
    e-v22 is the closest to e-v13 because he share
    a common ancestor with e-L618 ( e-v13 ancestor) named e-z1919

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z1919/
    i wish one day that an ancient remain will be found who carry that marker
    might be in any place in north east africa up to the levant
    Sefhardi, aschenazi, bulgarian
    die Überlebenden
    https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/E-Y62418/
    https://yfull.com/mtree/H3ap/
    k12b ancient
    Closest:
    3.30708331
    R136_Imperial_Era_Marcellino_&_Pietrophenotype: east med with pontic vibe

  4. #54
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    I think Natufians brought it up to the Northern Levante, where in the mix with local foragers the ancestors of ANF came up, with the Natufian paternal and autosomal contribution as a minority element, which was brought over to Europe by Cardial Ware in particular. Seems to be the most parsimonious route.

    If you read up on the theories at that time (2007), you will find out that many being outdated by now. However, Libya and especially Egypt is still a good bet, its just not known yet. At that time we didn't know about Basal Eurasians, we had no Natufians and Early Neolithics, the sampling of the living populations was much worse, with much less E from Arabia in particular and not as much known about the migration paths in general. So while I wouldn't say its wrong, we just don't know for sure and there are plausible alternatives.
    E-M78 in the Western Desert

    E-V22 as a subbranche of E-M78, originated about 14.000 years ago (y-full). In 2007 Prof. Cruciani stated that the origins of E-M78 lay in the Western Desert (Egypt/Libya). This is confirmed by prof. Trombetta e.a. (2015) they claimed: “a northern African location is favoured for the node defining the M78 sub-clade (posterior probability = 0.76), supporting the previous hypothesis of Cruciani et al. (2007).”

    Refugium Lake Nubia, humid phase

    Battaglia (2009) wrote: ‘A recent archaeological study reveals that during a desiccation period in North Africa, while the eastern Sahara was depopulated, a refugium existed on the border of present-day Sudan and Egypt, near Lake Nubia, until the onset of a humid phase around 8500 BC (radiocarbon-calibrated date). The rapid arrival of wet conditions during this Early Holocene period provided an impetus for population movement into habitat that was quickly settled afterwards’.
    In the humid phases the haplogroup E-M78 spread around the whole Western Desert. In these phase E-M78 was according to the analist of Yfull.com mutated to E-V22 (9900-7200 ybp). So the old patriarch of E-V22 is to be placed in the Western Desert. E-V22 is with 22% of the population in Bahariya (Western Desert) the highest of whole Egypt (14% in the Delta).


    Changing climate: desertification, move to the Nile

    The humid phase in 5600 BC (7600 ybp) was followed by a desertification of the Sahara, spurred the migration tot he Nile. This corresponds with the Neolithization of Egypt at that time: ‘In the Nile Valley, the Saharian met and mixed with the descendants of the South Western Asian Neolithic population responsible for the introduction of the Southwest Asian agricultural tradition into the Nile Valley….’ (Peter Bellwood 2005).
    Allison Smith (2009): ‘The prime Northeast African haplogroup E candidate related to the arrival of farmers and/or pastoralists from the Levant is undated E-M34. E-V12(xV32) and E-V22 may well represent local adaptation.’


    Neolithization: founder effect along the Nile

    The changing weather conditions, people moving to the Nile, and starting with forms of agriculture and sedentary life style counts for the whole area. Along the Nile within a relative short time, a few hundreds years, there where 7 mutations (subbranches) within the E-V22 markers (Y2530_2 and PH2818). This occurred about 7300 ybp. The migration from the Western Desert to the Nile and the development of a new kind of life style are mayor triggers for the different mutations of E-V22 and the founder effect of it.

    T-zone

    The spread of E-V22 descendants reaches a wide span. It’s like a T zone.
    Vertical: Egypt and the Southern Levant in the centre and Southwards to Horn of Africa. This is the oldest spread with the highest percentages up to 88% of the Saho in Eritrea.
    Horizontal: From Portugal in the west till Pakistan in the East, modest or low percentages around 5% (but mostly beneath).


    Spread to the Levant

    E-V22 spread from the Western Desert heartland (nowadays 30% ) to the Nile Delta (nowadays 14% ) and into the Southern Levant (nowadays 6,9%). The Levant corridor is one of the oldest “hubs” of human kind. From early on it’s an important bridge, with bidirectional movements, between Northeastern Africa and Southwest Asia.
    The migration of E-V22 into the Nile Delta and the Southern Levant is associated with the different Neolithic cultures of the Nubian/Egypt area and in the Southern Levant. The Nile functioned as an ancient highway also for migrating people.


    Argonauts of the Gulf and Mediterranean

    In the Levant E-V22 split up. Some took the way to the right into the Arabic Peninsula. Others took the way to the left and went into the Mediterraenen. It’s quite striking that the spread to the Mediterranean and to the Gulf was by seafaring people (Greek: Argonauts). The spread in both regions is especially in areas around the sea and islands.
    The Neolithic of the Levant was close linked tot he Ubaid culture in Mesopotamia. Alicia M Cadenas (2008): “Recent archaeological finds supports a trading relationship between Mesopotamia and the Arabian Gulf region dating back to the Al Ubaid Period (~7000 ybp) as evidenced by the excavation of Ubai pottery from Mesopotamia in UAE. Ancient maritime trade routes linking Mesopotamia to the Indus Valley included Dilmun (the island of Bahrain) and Magan (in the southeastern tip of the Arabian Peninsula). It is possible hat the close ties between Mesopotamia with both the Nile River Valley and the ancient Persian Gulf region during the Neolithic helped disseminate these haplogroups.”

    Fertile crescent

    “The majority of the UAE M78 representatives belong to the E3b1a3-V22 clade (6.7%)…ts dispersal may have occurred early, the first to spread the E3b1a-M78 chromosomes to North Africa and then the Near East.” E-V22 in the Arabic Peninsula is mostly characterized by the subbranche E-L674.
    For the Mediterranean area I see a similar development. Paschou (2014) stated that a“maritime coastal route was mainly used for the migration of Neolithic farmers to Europe”. In other words, there was a certain kind of island and coastal hopping of Neolithic colonist.
    Followed by Voskarides (2016): “E-V22 and E-M34 are common in the Southern Levant, Sicily, Algeria, and in Egypt and rare in Europe. These lineages, like J2b-M205, could mirror a Pottery Neolithic movement to Cyprus from the Southern Levant (Pearson R 2 coefficient of correlation of E- M34 to longitude: 0.164, p = 0.003)” On of the earliest spread to the Mediterranean is the the so called Impressed (or Cordial) Ware (7000-5500 ybp). The spread to the Mediterranean could be in several waves up until the so called Phoenicians (3500-2500 ybp).
    Last edited by Northener; 22-04-21 at 22:26.

  5. #55
    Regular Member kingjohn's Avatar
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