Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 10 of 15 FirstFirst ... 89101112 ... LastLast
Results 226 to 250 of 368

Thread: The genomic history of the Aegean palatial civilizations.

  1. #226
    Moderator Pax Augusta's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-06-14
    Location
    Ara Pacis
    Posts
    1,348


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: Italy



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    i am going to tell something
    this is a leak .....
    r1b was found in early bronze age north albania (i saw it in serbian dna forum )
    i don't know the details when i will know more i will post it ...
    2 samples from bronze age north albania :
    early bronze age r1b
    middle bronze age j2b


    Добио сам прелиминарне резултате једног истраживања старе ДНК на простору Албаније. Немам детаљнијих информација (лабораторија, датум објављивања студије и сл). Зна се само да је прва тура са севера Албаније, док ће друга бити са југа.

    Неки од резултата

    Северна Албанија, Рано бронзано доба: R1b-PF7563

    Северна Албанија, Средње бронзано доба/Касно бронзано доба: J2b2-M241



    I received preliminary results from an old DNA study in Albania. I do not have more detailed information (laboratory, date of publication of the study, etc.). It is only known that the first tour is from the north of Albania, while the second will be from the south.


    Some of the results


    Northern Albania, Early Bronze Age: R1b-PF7563


    Northern Albania, Middle Bronze Age / Late Bronze Age: J2b2-M241

    Thanks for sharing.

    R1b-PF7563 https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-PF7563/


    J2b2-M241 https://yfull.com/tree/J-M241/

  2. #227
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    23-01-21
    Posts
    173

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-Df27
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T2b3e

    Country: Spain



    Quote Originally Posted by Philjames100 View Post
    Well both of the Middle Bronze Age samples were women, and we only have one male sample from the Mycenaean period. So that's not much to go on.
    We already have many samples from the Greek Neolithic and at the moment R1b-M269 (both R1b-Z2103 and L51 are missing). Regarding the chalcolithic and the bronze age we have some samples and there is no R1b-M269.

    Pta08 (2.735 BC)-Petras, Crete-Minoan Culture-EBA-HapY-G2a2b-L30-Mit-H
    Kou01 (2.407 BC)-Koufonisi, Greece, Cycladic-EBA-HapY-J2a1a-L26-Mit-K1a2/c
    I9130 (2.400 BC)-Moni Odigitria, Heraklion, Crete-HapY-G2a2b/2-Mit-U3b3
    I0070 (1.850 BC)-Hagios Charambolos Cave, Lasithi, Crete-HapY-J2a1d-Mit-H13a1
    I0073 (1.850 BC)-Hagios Charambolos Cave, Lasithi, Crete- HapY-J2a1-Mit-H
    I9041 (1.450 BC)-Galatas Apatheia, Mycenean Culture-HapY-J2a1a-Z6057-Mit-X2-

    Anatolia,

    MA2212 (2.500 BC)- Ovaören-Topakhöyük HapY-J2a-M410-Mit-W5
    MA2205 (1.875 BC)- Kaman-Kalehöyük-HapY-J2a1-L26-Mit-J2b1
    MA2208-09 (1.875 BC)- Kaman-Kalehöyük-HapY-G2a2b/1-G-M406-Mit-H6a1/b2e
    MA2200-01 (1.625 BC)- Kaman-Kalehöyü[email protected]

    It is true that we do not have many samples, but they could be enough to give us an idea of ​​what is happening because we have the two regions where the first written IE languages ​​(Greek and Hittite) have been found linked to a J2a and not r1b-M269. Perhaps the steppe theory as explained by Harvard is wrong? Maybe some other male marker participated? Maybe the origin of IE is not in the steppes?

    Of course I do not have the solution and since my mother tongue is not Indo-European It is not a matter that worries me much, but while those prestigious researchers could not prove the link of R1b-M269 (whatever the subclade involved) with the different IE languages, I I will always think that at the moment it is only a fairy tale.

  3. #228
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    12-11-19
    Posts
    78


    Country: Italy



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I have no idea why you are fixated on two rare mummies compared to all the others, and not to the way the Egyptians depicted themselves. It's illogical. You don't make judgments about an entire population based on 5%, if even that, of the samples.

    If you want to make a big deal of it, it's your prerogative. Imo it is completely illogical and I will not discuss it further.

    As for the skin tone of Italians, I have every skin de***mentation allele in the book, and as a result am predicted to be very fair. It's true; can't tan, burn, get sun poisoning, have to wear the lightest skin foundation on the market.

    THAT is NOT common even in my part of Italy, far less so in the south. Southern Italians very, very rarely have "pink" undertones. A large percentage have olive undertones, as I showed above, even if they're much "fairer" in the winter.

    ONE factor, among others, is that there hasn't been a total sweep for derived SLC45A2 yet.
    I



    This all bears out my experience of these people. I've seen some quite dark Portuguese for example.

    Keep in mind, however, that this is one snp, not the multiple snps used in the subject paper. OCA2, for example, which is not that common in Southern Europe, affects skin as well as eye color.

    Thracians were not Greeks. Period. The ***mentation of one is not the ***mentation of others.
    Actually it is the first time I reply in this thread, and because I had the impression that there is some mistaken, vague idea about southern Europeans' ***mentation from the part of a user from Germany, which is comprehensible because I've noticed online that the "seasonability" of our skin tone can confuse some people that usually don't experience such variability. I've seen it even from scholars from America that interpreted some characters, Odysseus himself and Eurybates, from the Odissey as "black" because the word used to describe their skin is "μελανόχροος", which in my Italian version is translated as "bruno", an adjective meaning "brown" but when used to refer to persons' skin means "leathery tanned", presumably because those scholars had in mind their social realities, that is attaching "fair-skinned" to northwest Europeans and "dark-skinned" to afro-americans, while both adjectives attached to Greeks would mean more something close "on the lighter type of spectrum" and "tanned" in most cases, at least if referred to men. Also, call it a reason by analogy, but I hold that the evidence so far makes it the most plausible opinion to hold that Thracians' ***mentation would have been the same as that of the Greeks.

    Unfortunately, the thing with talking about skin tone is that the terms are very vague, so here it is how I use them: by "pinkish" I refer to a skin that is naturally, when untanned, like that of Federica Lazzara's, miss Sicilia, and virtually it is the same skin I've seen in all the women I've seen in my life, and given I've always lived in Sicily, I think I am in a good position to make the statement. The undertone is something different from the tone or ***mentation, which is what I referred to (in the chart it would be between "pale" and "intermediate", as the majority of Sardinians themselves resulted[P.S. "as the majority of Sardinians..." refers to "intermediate"]), and I would mean by "olive skin" a tone that is brown/light-brown untanned
    .
    Returning to the point of discussion, I agree that it is pointless to talk about it because the two plausible options are that either the analysis is wrong or if genuine it would mean that light skin was being under selection during that period, and there's no way one could add anything of meaning to settle the question.

  4. #229
    Regular Member Archetype0ne's Avatar
    Join Date
    11-06-18
    Posts
    709

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2b2-L283/FT29003

    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    i am going to tell something
    this is a leak .....
    r1b was found in early bronze age north albania (i saw it in serbian dna forum )
    i don't know the details when i will know more i will post it ...
    2 samples from bronze age north albania :
    early bronze age r1b
    middle bronze age j2b


    Добио сам прелиминарне резултате једног истраживања старе ДНК на простору Албаније. Немам детаљнијих информација (лабораторија, датум објављивања студије и сл). Зна се само да је прва тура са севера Албаније, док ће друга бити са југа.

    Неки од резултата

    Северна Албанија, Рано бронзано доба: R1b-PF7563

    Северна Албанија, Средње бронзано доба/Касно бронзано доба: J2b2-M241



    I received preliminary results from an old DNA study in Albania. I do not have more detailed information (laboratory, date of publication of the study, etc.). It is only known that the first tour is from the north of Albania, while the second will be from the south.


    Some of the results


    Northern Albania, Early Bronze Age: R1b-PF7563


    Northern Albania, Middle Bronze Age / Late Bronze Age: J2b2-M241
    Quote Originally Posted by gjergj View Post
    The Rrenjet Project in fact has over 1,100 results thus far :) and around 800 of them are exclusively members only at Rrenjet and processed in companies FTDNA, YSEQ and Dantelabs. A similar database is also being put together of Mitochondrial lines in Albania, its only around 150 results thus far.
    It seems that people are giving opinion on the origin of Albanians without basing their arguments on actual data.
    Albanians have very good diversity of both E-v13, J2b2 and R1b-PF7563. It is clear based on the data that there is a continuation of bronze and IA male lines despite the fact that there is a strong genetic bottleneck that fits with the fall of the roman empire and slavic migration to the balkans.
    There are now two projects from the Albanian archeologists in partnership with western counterparts on testing ancient remains from archeological sites in Albania. Preliminary results from one of these projects confirm this bronze age continuity for PF7563 and J2b2. Later this year or next year they will publish results.
    Bit unfair you attributing this leak to a Serbian forum when Gjergj posted this 1-2 weeks ago in a thread that you commented yourself.
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

    Franz Kafka

  5. #230
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    14-06-17
    Posts
    193


    Country: United Kingdom



    Quote Originally Posted by Gaska View Post
    We already have many samples from the Greek Neolithic and at the moment R1b-M269 (both R1b-Z2103 and L51 are missing). Regarding the chalcolithic and the bronze age we have some samples and there is no R1b-M269.

    Pta08 (2.735 BC)-Petras, Crete-Minoan Culture-EBA-HapY-G2a2b-L30-Mit-H
    Kou01 (2.407 BC)-Koufonisi, Greece, Cycladic-EBA-HapY-J2a1a-L26-Mit-K1a2/c
    I9130 (2.400 BC)-Moni Odigitria, Heraklion, Crete-HapY-G2a2b/2-Mit-U3b3
    I0070 (1.850 BC)-Hagios Charambolos Cave, Lasithi, Crete-HapY-J2a1d-Mit-H13a1
    I0073 (1.850 BC)-Hagios Charambolos Cave, Lasithi, Crete- HapY-J2a1-Mit-H
    I9041 (1.450 BC)-Galatas Apatheia, Mycenean Culture-HapY-J2a1a-Z6057-Mit-X2-

    I don't know anyone who's arguing that Greek speakers arrived in the Neolithic with R1b-M269, or that the Minoans were R1b-M269-carrying Indo-Europeans, so what you posted isn't really relevant.

    The main theories as far as I'm aware are that Greek speakers arrived c.2200-2000 BC or c.1700 BC.

  6. #231
    Regular Member kingjohn's Avatar
    Join Date
    05-09-16
    Posts
    1,047

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    rare E-FGC7391
    MtDNA haplogroup
    h3ap

    Country: Uruguay



    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Bit unfair you attributing this leak to a Serbian forum when Gjergj posted this 1-2 weeks ago in a thread that you commented yourself.

    Sorry do you forgive me .
    ....
    I guess i didnt thought they are the same results
    That 2 different persons from 2 different forums talk about ( albanian and a serb )


    P.s
    Do you think e-v13 will be found in bronze age south albania ?
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-FGC7391/

    https://yfull.com/mtree/H3ap/

  7. #232
    Regular Member Archetype0ne's Avatar
    Join Date
    11-06-18
    Posts
    709

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2b2-L283/FT29003

    Country: Albania



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    Sorry do you forgive me .
    ....
    I guess i didnt thought they are the same results
    That 2 different persons from 2 different forums talk about ( albanian and a serb )
    P.s
    Do you think e-v13 will be found in bronze age south albania ?
    No need for apology. I just found it confusing cause I remembered you were in that thread .

    I do not know to be honest about V13. For one, Gjergj did not mention it along the R1b and J2b2 in the comment I quoted, so who knows(?). But also Gjergj mentioned two sites, so maybe even if it is not found in this one, there is a chance it is found in the other.

    Either way, it would be really surprising if V-13 is not found in Albania in that period. Considering how widely present it was in Bulgaria based on the leak from the Bulgaria paper, the timing, and how widely spread it is across the whole Balkans.

  8. #233
    Regular Member blevins13's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-10-16
    Location
    Tirana
    Age
    45
    Posts
    789

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-Z2103>BY611
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H7i1

    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    No need for apology. I just found it confusing cause I remembered you were in that thread .

    I do not know to be honest about V13. For one, Gjergj did not mention it along the R1b and J2b2 in the comment I quoted, so who knows(?). But also Gjergj mentioned two sites, so maybe even if it is not found in this one, there is a chance it is found in the other.

    Either way, it would be really surprising if V-13 is not found in Albania in that period. Considering how widely present it was in Bulgaria based on the leak from the Bulgaria paper, the timing, and how widely spread it is across the whole Balkans.
    Yes you are correct, so far E-V13 has not been found in Albania during BA


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

  9. #234
    Regular Member Archetype0ne's Avatar
    Join Date
    11-06-18
    Posts
    709

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2b2-L283/FT29003

    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    Yes you are correct, so far E-V13 has not been found in Albania during BA


    Sent from my ****** using Eupedia Forum
    Is it known or public what is the number of individuals analyzed/being analyzed?

  10. #235
    Regular Member blevins13's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-10-16
    Location
    Tirana
    Age
    45
    Posts
    789

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-Z2103>BY611
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H7i1

    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Albania



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Is it known or public what is the number of individuals analyzed/being analyzed?
    I have no clue how many, I asked Gjergj a week ago, and as far as I remember E-V13 has not been found so far. The bones came from prior escavations of the Albanian Institute of Archeology.


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

  11. #236
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    17-03-16
    Posts
    536


    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by Gaska View Post

    Autosomically some Mycenaeans from Lazaridis paper can be modeled with some African blood, and this study has shown that there could be migrants or slaves of African origin in the Balkans BA (hence they have reported a case of Mit-L3). Therefore it does not surprise me that some of them cannot be classified as fair skinned, although I believe that other samples will be, because in the Bronze Age the phenotypes in Europe were as varied as they are today. (I have given the example of two cases from the Bronze Age in Iberia, one blonde in Asturias and other with brown hair in Argar culture)- Then we have people with blue eyes or brown eyes all over Europe both in prehistory and today. That is why I have not given too much importance to swarthy Mycenaeans
    Greeks seemed to have believed there was a movement from Egypt. Herodotus who is more extreme says even that the kings of the Dorians were ''Egyptians".

    I had tried to understand how that would work. The most probable scenario is there was a real migration, these people became part of the elites but they where Hyksos related and not Egyptians proper. The trend today is to consider the Hyksos to have been Semetic, which is possible but not necessarily correct.

    (If they were Hyksos related the date of potential movements should be around 1550BC, provided that the dates by Egyptologists are correct.)

    Either way, in Avaris which was the "seat of the power" of the Hyksos, there have been found artifacts like this fragment of a ''Minoan'' fresco
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...o_avaris_2.png

    So, it is also possible there was a back migration of a BA Greek related population and I think that is what Aeschylus in Suppliants implies.

    So, any exotic admixture -if real, personally I don't really care- can be explainable that way even.

    (I am not talking about earlier samples or any specific samples in particular. I am just stating what is possible based on what Greeks believed about themselves.)

  12. #237
    Regular Member blevins13's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-10-16
    Location
    Tirana
    Age
    45
    Posts
    789

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-Z2103>BY611
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H7i1

    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    Greeks seemed to have believed there was a movement from Egypt. Herodotus who is more extreme says even that the kings of the Dorians were ''Egyptians".

    I had tried to understand how that would work. The most probable scenario is there was a real migration, these people became part of the elites but they where Hyksos related and not Egyptians proper. The trend today is to consider the Hyksos to have been Semetic, which is possible but not necessarily correct.

    (If they were Hyksos related the date of potential movements should be around 1550BC, provided that the dates by Egyptologists are correct.)

    Either way, in Avaris which was the "seat of the power" of the Hyksos, there have been found artifacts like this fragment of a ''Minoan'' fresco
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...o_avaris_2.png

    So, it is also possible there was a back migration of a BA Greek related population and I think that is what Aeschylus in Suppliants implies.

    So, any exotic admixture -if real, personally I don't really care- can be explainable that way even.

    (I am not talking about earlier samples or any specific samples in particular. I am just stating what is possible based on what Greeks believed about themselves.)
    We are not at Dorians yet, data comes before 1,200 BC. For Dorian times I would speculate plenty of E-V13


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

  13. #238
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    5,299

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1a2b1 (R-F1794)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Wait... Did I miss something? Which one of the samples is African :O ?
    None of them do, I believe this person is t-rolling, and if he continues, I will be forced to do something about it.

  14. #239
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    5,299

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1a2b1 (R-F1794)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Other proposed migrations, such as settlement by Egyptian or Phoenician colonists22, are not discernible in our data, as there is no measurable Levantine or African influence in the Minoans and Mycenaeans, thus rejecting the hypothesis that the cultures of the Aegean were seeded by migrants from the old civilizations of these regions.

    Genetic origins of the Minoans and Mycenaeans (harvard.edu)
    @Gaska, STOP T-ROLLING

  15. #240
    Regular Member Archetype0ne's Avatar
    Join Date
    11-06-18
    Posts
    709

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2b2-L283/FT29003

    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    None of them do, I believe this person is t-rolling, and if he continues, I will be forced to do something about it.
    I mean I have seen so much wild stuff in anthropology forums I would not be surprised if he isn't trolling. Probably a bit confused. He is putting a lot of efforts in his posts by looking at it, not sure about the output.

    Either way. We can all agree that no one with genuine research mindset would care if these ancient individuals were dark skinned, or even Ethiopian. So no need to be defensive (edit: on his part).
    The whole point is discussing the research. And so far we know the paper says they were of dark complexion, but we are not entirely certain how, or convinced, unless the author/s themselves verify what they meant. On the other hand, not sure I saw anything regarding Africa in this? Do not know what he meant by that... Maybe he thinks you need to be African or of that heritage to have dark skin.

  16. #241
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    5,299

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1a2b1 (R-F1794)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    I mean I have seen much wild stuff in anthropology forums I would not be surprised if he isn't trolling. Probably a bit confused. He is putting a lot of efforts in his posts by looking at it, not sure about the output.

    Either way. We can all agree that no one with genuine research mindset would care if these ancient individuals were dark skinned, or even Ethiopian. So no need to be defensive.
    The whole point is discussing the research. And so far we know the paper says they were of dark complexion, but we are not entirely certain how, or convinced, unless the author/s themselves verify what they meant. On the other hand, not sure I saw anything regarding Africa in this? So not sure what he meant... Maybe he think you need to be African or of that heritage to have dark skin.
    Frankly, I don't care, we are not here to spread disinformation. Now, people are either going to read the papers, or they are going to not pontificate nonsense. Also, I don't appreciate you undermining moderation.

  17. #242
    Regular Member Archetype0ne's Avatar
    Join Date
    11-06-18
    Posts
    709

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2b2-L283/FT29003

    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Frankly, I don't care, we are not here to spread disinformation. Now, people are either going to read the papers, or they are going to not pontificate nonsense. Also, I don't appreciate you undermining moderation.
    Not sure what gave you the impression I undermined anything you said? Just stated that people can get really confused, since I don't think anyone would spend that much energy to t-roll.

    Either way...

  18. #243
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    5,299

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1a2b1 (R-F1794)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Not sure what gave you the impression I undermined anything you said? Just stated that people can get really confused, since I don't think anyone would spend that much energy to t-roll.

    Either way...
    I've been a moderator on this website for several years now, you haven't seen what I have. You would be surprised the lengths some people go to. Nevertheless, no punitive actions have even been taken yet, unless he continues. At any rate, let us get back on topic.

  19. #244
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    23-01-21
    Posts
    173

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-Df27
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T2b3e

    Country: Spain



    Quote Originally Posted by Philjames100 View Post
    I don't know anyone who's arguing that Greek speakers arrived in the Neolithic with R1b-M269, or that the Minoans were R1b-M269-carrying Indo-Europeans, so what you posted isn't really relevant.

    The main theories as far as I'm aware are that Greek speakers arrived c.2200-2000 BC or c.1700 BC.

    Anyway you don't have R1b-M269>L23 in the Bronze Age in Greece either, so either find it, or look for another theory to explain the Indo-European languages in Greece and Anatolia.

  20. #245
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    23-01-21
    Posts
    173

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-Df27
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T2b3e

    Country: Spain



    Manika is one of the first urban cities of the Early Helladic period (EH) (3,000-2,600 BCE) (Tab. i) in Greece and the Aegean. It is located 5 km to the north of Chalkis on the island of Euboea. The settlement extends to an area of at least 100 acres, though a large portion of this is now submerged under the sea. In 1955, surface reconnaissance in Euboea, Theocharis (1959) confirmed the existence of a small important prehistoric settlement (sector III). The enormous extent of the EH settlement remained unknown till 1982, thus the archaeological site continued to suffer destruction from cultivation

    The Manika tombs belong to chamber-tombs consisting of a “dromos” (a corridor) and usually of one chamber, similar to the Mycenaean chamber-tombs

  21. #246
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    17-03-16
    Posts
    536


    Country: Greece



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaska View Post
    Anyway you don't have R1b-M269>L23 in the Bronze Age in Greece either, so either find it, or look for another theory to explain the Indo-European languages in Greece and Anatolia.
    Concerning R1b-M269 and related (including lost) subclades they could have had some short of networks, so some subclades could have been expanding and rexpanding over them.
    The prescence of L754 in Oman 5500 years ago likely shows that before the timeframe of IE migrations some R1b groups would have existed in Central Asia (the Kelteminar culture could have had R1b imho), or the Persian Golf etc. These groups did not make big demographic impact but that doesn't mean they did not exist. So if someone finds R1b e.g. in the Levant they should consider the possibility that it arrived from the east too (even though the ultimate origin is in Europe Villabruna, Iron Gates, Lepenski Vir etc.). I think, for example, the M269(xL51) sample in Askhelon (ASH 067) had more 'Iran Chalcolithic' related than non R1b samples in the same area. (?) That may point to an arrival from the east, even though in the relevant study they grouped ASH_IA1 samples together and modeled them as 43% ''Minoan".



    So, even if someone finds R1b in Greece during the BA, they should also consider where it came from and where his ancestors were from. Was it Bulgaria, Armenia, Ukraine, Italy, the Levant, Albania? And does the place of origin work? Is it from a subclade that ever existed in the 'steppes' etc?

  22. #247
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    5,299

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1a2b1 (R-F1794)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    All of these theories have been disproven in Lazaridis et al. 2017. Minoans are not modeled with Levantine. Nor are the Myceneans. Only the Anatolian_BA had a small amount of Levantine, 5%. There is no African ancestry in them either.

    This is becoming clearer to me that you are a sockpuppet of one of these idiots from Anthrogenica.

  23. #248
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    5,299

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1a2b1 (R-F1794)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    Concerning R1b-M269 and related (including lost) subclades they could have had some short of networks, so some subclades could have been expanding and rexpanding over them.
    The prescence of L754 in Oman 5500 years ago likely shows that before the timeframe of IE migrations some R1b groups would have existed in Central Asia (the Kelteminar culture could have had R1b imho), or the Persian Golf etc. These groups did not make big demographic impact but that doesn't mean they did not exist. So if someone finds R1b e.g. in the Levant they should consider the possibility that it arrived from the east too (even though the ultimate origin is in Europe Villabruna, Iron Gates, Lepenski Vir etc.). I think, for example, the M269(xL51) sample in Askhelon (ASH 067) had more 'Iran Chalcolithic' related than non R1b samples in the same area. (?) That may point to an arrival from the east, even though in the relevant study they grouped ASH_IA1 samples together and modeled them as 43% ''Minoan".



    So, even if someone finds R1b in Greece during the BA, they should also consider where it came from and where his ancestors were from. Was it Bulgaria, Armenia, Ukraine, Italy, the Levant, Albania? And does the place of origin work? Is it from a subclade that ever existed in the 'steppes' etc?
    I am not sure this modeling is very good, despite it being used in the paper. Levant_ChL is based on the peq'in cave samples, which already had a good amount of Anatolian_N, and CHG. I think it would have been better for them to use more traditional source populations, i.e. Anatolian_N, Steppe, CHG, etc.

    Besides, Ash068 clusters with Myceneans. Who are absent of Levant admixture. He is more than likely a Cretan invader to the region; i.e. Phillistine.

  24. #249
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    5,299

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1a2b1 (R-F1794)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Gaska View Post
    Sorry but you should read the supplementary information

    MIK08: haplogroup L-The MIK08 individual was associated with the African haplogroup L3d1b1. Haplogroup L3 sits at the root of the mtDNA phylogenetic tree of haplogroups found outside of Africa, and thus it is associated to the out of Africa expansion (Behar et al., 2008; Van Oven and Kayser, 2009). A HG individual with the haplogroup L was found in the African Mota Cave (Llorente et al., 2015) and in Iberia associated with the Bell Beaker culture (Olalde et al., 2018).
    I guess the authors of the paper should to than? They concluded there is no African or Levantine admixture! Take your sophistry elsewhere.

  25. #250
    Regular Member kingjohn's Avatar
    Join Date
    05-09-16
    Posts
    1,047

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    rare E-FGC7391
    MtDNA haplogroup
    h3ap

    Country: Uruguay



    3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I guess the authors of the paper should to than? They concluded there is no African or Levantine admixture! Take your sophistry elsewhere.
    jovailis,
    gaska only mention that mik08 carry mtdna L3D1B1 which is indeed an african mtdna
    ( no way a round it)
    he don't speak of mik08 autosomal profile which very likely was like mik15 a southern european profile ....

Page 10 of 15 FirstFirst ... 89101112 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •