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Thread: The genomic history of the Aegean palatial civilizations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Not only is this post misguided, it is wrong on several points. Nevertheless, we are not here to discuss social issues or make inflammatory inferences. We are here to strictly discuss the paper.

    Genetically, these samples have absolutely nothing to do with SSA, so the fact that they may be dark-skinned doesn't mean they are black. Just like how it doesn't mean Chedder man was SSA, because he was dark skinned. Black and White are nebulous outmoded constructs not based on genetics, which we have discussed on this site, ad nauseum. If you want to discuss that, please search for another thread dedicated to that topic.
    In addition, anyone who thinks possessing mtDna L3 means someone is African doesn't know a darn thing about genetics.

    That particular mtDna's appearance in Europe is the result of arrival in the Neolithic, and has nothing to do with skin color or "racial" affiliation.

    Are we going to have the "one drop rule" for uniparental markers now? What's next? All E-V13 men are African?

    I predicted to you ignorant t-rolls would take over this forum, and it's happening.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    In addition, anyone who thinks possessing mtDna L3 means someone is African doesn't know a darn thing about genetics.

    That particular mtDna's appearance in Europe is the result of arrival in the Neolithic, and has nothing to do with skin color or "racial" affiliation.

    Are we going to have the "one drop rule" for uniparental markers now? What's next? All E-V13 men are African?

    I predicted to you ignorant t-rolls would take over this forum, and it's happening.
    Thank you, and this addresses kingjohn's post as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaska View Post
    Are you all really so concerned about the skin color of the Mycenaeans? Is this the only interesting thing you have found in this latest paper on Greece?

    Blacks, half-blacks, blacks tending to be dark, dark tending to be black, pale Italians like the Swedes, half-pale French like the English, half-blond Greeks like the Norwegians, Finns who look like Egyptians, white or black Egyptian mummies, Arabs not so dark, Belgians not so blond, dark Hispanics like American Indians, blond Argentines with Armenian blood, olive-skinned Spaniards, blond Basques, Sicilians who don't want to be Levantines, Englishmen who think that the more Yamnaya blood they have, the more white they are, Italians who don't want to be Levantines, Slavs who think they are part of the Aryan race, Greeks who want to be neither Turks nor Slavs, Poles who are horrified because Yamnaya riders have 50% Iranian or Caucasian blood, Calabrians who pretend to be descendants of the Goths, Americans who pretend to be 100% European, blond Bulgarians who think they are Nordic, dark-haired Walloons who look like Romanians, morons who think that the more steppe ancestry you have the blonder you will be, South Americans worried because they are not and do not look white, North Americans from Massachusetts who would commit suicide if they found out that they had a drop of Indian or black blood, Italian-Americans who would kill anyone who said they were not as white as the Poles, Jews who pretend to be 100% Levantine etc etc etc.

    Come on guys, if you are really so worried, why don't you divide Europe and the rest of the world in blond countries with blue eyes, brown countries with brown eyes, black countries, half black countries, half blond countries, Indian countries, Hispanic countries, half Hispanic countries, Asian countries or half Asian countries, and then everybody will be clear about which race, people etc. belong to?

    After reading hundreds of posts of this style in many internet forums, I have decided that we Basques are not white people, nor do we want to be, we have African, Levantine, Iranian, Phoenician, Roman, Gothic, Anatolian, and even Chinese blood, if the northwestern Europeans want to monopolize whiteness and belittle other Europeans for being more or less swarthy I think they should immediately go to a psychiatrist and should be accompanied by all those Europeans with complexes who try to discuss who is whiter or browner. I like wine, olive oil, bullfights, hunting, the festivities of San Fermin and beautiful women, and the most beautiful ones I have seen are in Cuba, a mixture of Spaniards, blacks and Indians so, in my opinion, the more mixed the people are the more interesting and attractive people you will find.

    We have three half black Mycenaeans, who cares if they had one of the most advanced bronze age cultures in Europe when the Nordics were still in their balls trying to find some fish to eat?

    By the way, does anyone still think that R1b-P312 is responsible for the spread of the IE language in mainland Europe, or that certain male markers were determinant in that process? Does anybody have any explanation for the absence of R1b-M269 in Greece (Neolithic, Chalcolithic or Bronze Age) and yet Greek is an Indo-European language?
    Thank you Gaska! You said what I was about to say. Who cares what the alleles are predicting? They predict that I have blue gray eyes like my father but I have dark brown eyes like my mother. As far as R1b-269 not being found among the Greeks, should we not wait a little bit until more samples are analyzed?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    In addition, anyone who thinks possessing mtDna L3 means someone is African doesn't know a darn thing about genetics.

    That particular mtDna's appearance in Europe is the result of arrival in the Neolithic, and has nothing to do with skin color or "racial" affiliation.

    Are we going to have the "one drop rule" for uniparental markers now? What's next? All E-V13 men are African?

    I predicted to you ignorant t-rolls would take over this forum, and it's happening.
    not the same thing .....
    e-v13 are european it doesn't matter that e-m78 originated in north east africa
    what matteres is the last mutation / snp
    and it originated in europe wether balkan or southwest europe
    L3d1b1 is an african mtdna
    https://www.yfull.com/mtree/L3d1b1/
    i dont know why people here take offence by it
    after said all that doesn't effect this bronze age individual autosomal profile
    which i say again was very likely like mik15 southern european
    ancestery :
    mostly western jewish here is the overlapp with south europe[U]

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Thank you Gaska! You said what I was about to say. Who cares what the alleles are predicting? They predict that I have blue gray eyes like my father but I have dark brown eyes like my mother. As far as R1b-269 not being found among the Greeks, should we not wait a little bit until more samples are analyzed?
    You were going to say the Mycenaeans are half black? Because that is monstrously idiotic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    In addition, anyone who thinks possessing mtDna L3 means someone is African doesn't know a darn thing about genetics.
    That particular mtDna's appearance in Europe is the result of arrival in the Neolithic, and has nothing to do with skin color or "racial" affiliation.
    Are we going to have the "one drop rule" for uniparental markers now? What's next? All E-V13 men are African?
    I predicted to you ignorant t-rolls would take over this forum, and it's happening.
    Low-IQ and psychotic behavior is not only a problem on forums, but our society as a whole.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    In addition, anyone who thinks possessing mtDna L3 means someone is African doesn't know a darn thing about genetics.

    That particular mtDna's appearance in Europe is the result of arrival in the Neolithic, and has nothing to do with skin color or "racial" affiliation.

    Are we going to have the "one drop rule" for uniparental markers now? What's next? All E-V13 men are African?

    I predicted to you ignorant t-rolls would take over this forum, and it's happening.
    Angela I was gonna mention the ridiculous E-V13 African clade claims from a couple of years ago while I was reading half way through your comment, glad you beat me to it. Great analogy, and completely agree.
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

    Franz Kafka

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    You were going to say the Mycenaeans are half black? Because that is monstrously idiotic.
    Nope I was going to say that I don't care. I think there is more to phenotypes than compiling alleles. There are gene expression, exomes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Nope I was going to say that I don't care. I think there is more to phenotypes than compiling alleles. There are gene expression, exomes.
    Right, and as I said, it doesn't make someone "black" as in Sub-Saharan African. Just like it doesn't make cheddar man, "black", as in Sub-Saharan African. These people are genetically western Eurasians, regardless of their skin color. We don't need to make asinine statements say that.

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    Btw, I can see who upvotes who, and we have known/banned t-rolls building a false consensus. Makes me wonder if some of those here are working in concert with them. How pathetic!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Right, and as I said, it doesn't make someone "black" as in Sub-Saharan African. Just like it doesn't make cheddar man, "black", as in Sub-Saharan African. These people are genetically western Eurasians, regardless of their skin color. We don't need to make asinine statements say that.
    They probably were tanned Meds but I also remember that some if not the majority of these samples are from "elite" burials and thus not necessarily representative of the general population. How numerous were the Greeks? Was there wholesale population replacement, population mixing or elite replacement? I also want to know about the slave population. How many were there? From where?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaska View Post
    Manika is one of the first urban cities of the Early Helladic period (EH) (3,000-2,600 BCE) (Tab. i) in Greece and the Aegean. It is located 5 km to the north of Chalkis on the island of Euboea. The settlement extends to an area of at least 100 acres, though a large portion of this is now submerged under the sea. In 1955, surface reconnaissance in Euboea, Theocharis (1959) confirmed the existence of a small important prehistoric settlement (sector III). The enormous extent of the EH settlement remained unknown till 1982, thus the archaeological site continued to suffer destruction from cultivation

    The Manika tombs belong to chamber-tombs consisting of a “dromos” (a corridor) and usually of one chamber, similar to the Mycenaean chamber-tombs


    You can’t take this first case of an Aegean individual with an African mtDNA, thus a clear outlier, to make a sweeping statement about the Mycenaeans or Minoans having SSA admixture and were dark because of that. I already explained to you, that the Mycenaeans from the Lazaradis paper don't harbor real SSA genetic input. Besides, there are other studies that showed Minoans having many mtDNA that are typically found in Northern or Western Europe. Some biased folks took this fact for claiming that Minoans are closely related to Northern or Western Europeans, which isn't the case.


    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23673646/


    Stamatoyannopoulos and his research team analyzed samples from 37 skeletons found in a cave in Crete’s Lassithi plateau and compared them with mitochondrial DNA sequences from 135 modern and ancient human populations. The Minoan samples revealed 21 distinct mitochondrial DNA variations, of which six were unique to the Minoans and 15 were shared with modern and ancient populations. None of the Minoans carried mitochondrial DNA variations characteristic of African populations.
    Further analysis showed that the Minoans were only distantly related to Egyptian, Libyan, and other North African populations. The Minoan shared the greatest percentage of their mitochondrial DNA variation with European populations, especially those in Northern and Western Europe.
    https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms2871

    The Minoan mtDNA haplotypes resembled those of the European populations(Figs2b, 3aand 4; SupplementaryFigs S1–S3).The majority of Minoans were classified in haplogroups H (43.2%), T(18.9%), K (16.2%) and I (8.1%). Haplogroups U5A, W, J2, U, X and J were each identified in a single individual. The greatest percentage of shared Minoan haplotypes was observed with European populations, particularly with individuals from Northern and Western Europe(26.98% and 29.28%, respectively) (Figs2, 3, 4; SupplementaryTable S7).Notably, in Fig.4, a gradient can be observed, with the lowest affinity for Minoans found with Northern African populations and the percentage of haplotype sharing increasing as we move through the Middle East,Caucasus and the Mediterranean islands, southern Europe and mainland Europe (Fig.4a).Of notice also is the high percentage of haplotype sharing with Bronze Age (Fig.4c)and Neolithic (Fig.4d)European populations.
    https://science.rpi.edu/computer-sci...n-civilization
    https://phys.org/news/2013-05-mtdna-minoans-europe-africa.html



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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    They probably were tanned Meds but I also remember that some if not the majority of these samples are from "elite" burials and thus not necessarily representative of the general population. How numerous were the Greeks? Was there wholesale population replacement, population mixing or elite replacement?
    https://youtu.be/5OazVFNWL7I

    In this lecture video, Lazaridis says that the elites and commoners were genetically similar.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Thank you Gaska! You said what I was about to say. Who cares what the alleles are predicting? They predict that I have blue gray eyes like my father but I have dark brown eyes like my mother. As far as R1b-269 not being found among the Greeks, should we not wait a little bit until more samples are analyzed?
    Yeah, probably R1b-L23>Z2103, will appear in Greece from the north, but until then it's all conjecture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Thank you Gaska! You said what I was about to say. Who cares what the alleles are predicting? They predict that I have blue gray eyes like my father but I have dark brown eyes like my mother. As far as R1b-269 not being found among the Greeks, should we not wait a little bit until more samples are analyzed?
    May I ask you this, did you use HIrisPlex S for your eye and skin color prediction? And overall how accurate was it? Anyway, I personally do care a lot about accuracy including phenotype prediction. When I read a scientific study, I want to be informed and educated. Therefore, I dislike the idea of being misinformed by researchers who interpret the data in a biased, misleading or inaccurate way. The thing is, that Phenotype prediction is a science that is new and still in its infancy which means that mistake can happen. Thus, we probably have to take phenotype prediction with a grain of salt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    not the same thing .....
    e-v13 are european it doesn't matter that e-m78 originated in north east africa
    what matteres is the last mutation / snp
    and it originated in europe wether balkan or southwest europe
    L3d1b1 is an african mtdna
    https://www.yfull.com/mtree/L3d1b1/
    i dont know why people here take offence by it
    after said all that doesn't effect this bronze age individual autosomal profile
    which i say again was very likely like mik15 southern european
    You've obviously missed some comments here about half black Mycenaeans, and Aegeans being predicted as dark because of SSA influence. I personally don’t take offense at the detected African mtdna. However, I strongly disagree with how Gaska spin this fact into because MIK08 had an African mtdna that somehow proves, that the Mycenaeans from the Lazaridis paper had real SSA admixture, and that the authors therefore predicted the 3 Aegeans with no African mtDNA, as being dark. It doesn't make sense. You understand that the hp not always matches the ethnicity or the autosomal profile, but many don't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    You've obviously missed some comments here about half black Mycenaeans, and Aegeans being predicted as dark because of SSA influence. I personally don’t take offense at the detected African mtdna. However, I strongly disagree with how Gaska spin this fact into because MIK08 had an African mtdna that somehow proves, that the Mycenaeans from the Lazaridis paper had real SSA admixture, and that the authors therefore predicted the 3 Aegeans with no African mtDNA, as being dark. It doesn't make sense. You understand that the hp not always matches the ethnicity or the autosomal profile, but many don't.

    sometimes it is just bad authors/scribes ...like the ethiopions of the trojan wars by herodous

    he states

    Memnon and the "Aethiopians" ................these people are from Libya

    it was Greek historian Hesiod who changed the term Aethiopians wrongly to Ethiopians
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-Z282

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    The color discussion is stupid, the main question still remains, from where the Greek speakers came from!? We still have to wait, but Drew’s scenario is considered as an option.


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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    The color discussion is stupid, the main question still remains, from where the Greek speakers came from!? We still have to wait, but Drew’s scenario is considered as an option.


    Sent from my ****** using Eupedia Forum
    Yes, let us get back on topic. This point about color has been discussed ad nauseam.

    Anyone who continues to pollute this thread will have their post deleted, and they will be given an infraction for non-respect for moderator's warning.
    Last edited by Jovialis; 04-05-21 at 21:12.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    The color discussion is stupid, the main question still remains, from where the Greek speakers came from!? We still have to wait, but Drew’s scenario is considered as an option.
    Good point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    sometimes it is just bad authors/scribes ...like the ethiopions of the trojan wars by herodous

    he states

    Memnon and the "Aethiopians" ................these people are from Libya

    it was Greek historian Hesiod who changed the term Aethiopians wrongly to Ethiopians
    That is interesting: how do you know this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leopoldo Leone View Post
    That is interesting: how do you know this?
    I am not a linguist, but the Latins Diphthongs ‘ae’ and ‘oe’ are read like Portuguese sound of the vogal ‘e’. Example: ‘caelestis’ (‘celeste’ in Portuguese); ‘poena’ (‘pena’ in Portuguese); ‘Caesar’ (César in Portuguese). Than, I think that Aethiopians, Ethiopians are the same thing, that translated to Portuguese it will be ‘Etíopes’. As I said before, I can be wrong because I am not a linguist. It just what I think about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duarte View Post
    I am not a linguist, but the Latins Diphthongs ‘ae’ and ‘oe’ are read like Portuguese sound of the vogal ‘e’. Example: ‘caelestis’ (‘celeste’ in Portuguese); ‘poena’ (‘pena’ in Portuguese); ‘Caesar’ (César in Portuguese). Than, I think that Aethiopians, Ethiopians are the same thing, that translated to Portuguese it will be ‘Etíopes’. As I said before, I can be wrong because I am not a linguist. It just what I think about.
    The linguistic explanation is plausible, but I mean "where have you read it? Is there a source?". I ask because it is the first time I hear it. I know that Memnon swang between being represented as a black man (straight bantu, "lips and all") and as a caucasoid, because he was associated with Ethiopia but in the beginning it seems he was still imagined as "white" (his parents were Tithonus, Troyan, and Eos, a godess). If the initial place was "Aethiopia" instead of "Ethiopia" it would sound surprising to me, but would explain also why Memnon was depicted in different ways in subsequent epochs.
    Naturally there need be more than a linguistic possibility to uphold the statement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    not the same thing .....
    e-v13 are european it doesn't matter that e-m78 originated in north east africa
    what matteres is the last mutation / snp
    and it originated in europe wether balkan or southwest europe
    L3d1b1 is an african mtdna
    https://www.yfull.com/mtree/L3d1b1/
    i dont know why people here take offence by it
    after said all that doesn't effect this bronze age individual autosomal profile
    which i say again was very likely like mik15 southern european
    I've told you before; stop putting words in my mouth or attributing racist motives to me. I wouldn't give a damn if I carried it, but carrying it doesn't mean one is African. It could be more than 200 years in the past and no trace of autosomal African dna could remain, as is the case in this situation.

    Are you part of the agenda driven group of people on the internet who would love these people to have Levant and African dna? Sorry, whatever mtDna they carry, they DON'T. Period.

    Btw, it's not having that kind of dna which is a problem; the problem is the motives of the people who WANT Southern Europeans to have it because they are secret racists, and you know it very well.

    Give it up.

    This is what always happens when ***mentation is discussed. People from both sides of the divide go mental.
    Last edited by Angela; 05-05-21 at 02:59.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leopoldo Leone View Post
    The linguistic explanation is plausible, but I mean "where have you read it? Is there a source?". I ask because it is the first time I hear it. I know that Memnon swang between being represented as a black man (straight bantu, "lips and all") and as a caucasoid, because he was associated with Ethiopia but in the beginning it seems he was still imagined as "white" (his parents were Tithonus, Troyan, and Eos, a godess). If the initial place was "Aethiopia" instead of "Ethiopia" it would sound surprising to me, but would explain also why Memnon was depicted in different ways in subsequent epochs.
    Naturally there need be more than a linguistic possibility to uphold the statement.
    Well I really do not want to be part of this whole thread the way its going.

    So thinking this is relevant, albeit barely fitting the timeline, and possibly missing it by 1000 years. Regarding Memnon:



    The departure of Memnon for Troy. Greek, circa 550-525 BC. Black-figure vase. Royal Museums of Art and History, Brussels, Belgium.


    This mid 2nd Century CE bust portrays Memnon, the Aethiopian pupil of the Roman statesman Herodes Atticus. It was found in the Villa of Herodes Atticus in Arcadia, Greece but its current home is the Altes Museum in Berlin.


    The first depiction is circa 700 years after supposedly the Trojan War. Second one 1500 years. So take that with a grain of salt.

    What I take from this is what both Greeks and Romans considered an African appearance.
    What I also get from the first image, is that the people creating the vase had an awareness of how they looked different from Memnon. Both in skin color as well as overall morphology.

    Again. I would rather not get embroiled in the rest of the arguments going on, since I feel they are counterproductive. But since Memnon and Aethiopians are mentioned, I think its relevant. And also proves the point that these ancient people did not see themselves similar to Memnon, in skin color or appearance.

    Context:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memnon_(mythology)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herodes_Atticus

    PS: Anyone else having issues editing their posts, where a second edit, undoes the first?
    Last edited by Archetype0ne; 04-05-21 at 23:49. Reason: Corrected a sentence. Added context.

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