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Thread: The genomic history of the Aegean palatial civilizations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    https://youtu.be/5OazVFNWL7I

    In this lecture video, Lazaridis says that the elites and commoners were genetically similar.
    I would like proof of that beyond his word.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    I would like proof of that beyond his word.
    Fine, here are all the other authors from the study, you can e-mail each one about it and they will tell you the same:

    Iosif Lazaridis, Alissa Mittnik, Nick Patterson, Swapan Mallick, Nadin Rohland, Saskia Pfrengle, Anja Furtwängler, Alexander Peltzer, Cosimo Posth, Andonis Vasilakis, P. J. P. McGeorge, Eleni Konsolaki-Yannopoulou, George Korres, Holley Martlew, Manolis Michalodimitrakis, Mehmet Özsait, Nesrin Özsait, Anastasia Papathanasiou, Michael Richards, Songül Alpaslan Roodenberg, Yannis Tzedakis, Robert Arnott, Daniel M. Fernandes, Jeffery R. Hughey, Dimitra M. Lotakis, Patrick A. Navas, Yannis Maniatis, John A. Stamatoyannopoulos, Kristin Stewardson, Philipp Stockhammer, Ron Pinhasi, David Reich, Johannes Krause & George Stamatoyannopoulos

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    For the record, since they don't want to be cancelled, geneticists don't use the term 'race' anymore. They call them "continental breeding populations". In other words they bred only with each other for long enough that they are different from one another. It's a neat little trick to avoid the roving Woke Revolution gangs. Let's hope they go the way of Mao's Cultural Revolution gangs, scurrying off under the rocks and hoping no one will remember what they said and did in their hey-dey.

    You know what I sometimes think? All these names people use to t-roll here and on anthrogenica and eurogenes (oh yes, he comes here) and the apricity. It seems like dozens and dozens of people, right, maybe at least 100. It's probably 10 people living in their mothers' basements. It's really sad and pathetic if you think about it. You have to feel sorry for them, and at least they're not out shooting people if they're glued to their computers trying to keep track of all their socks. :)


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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memnon_(mythology)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herodes_Atticus
    PS: Anyone else having issues editing their posts, where a second edit, undoes the first?
    Yes, this problem with editing is happening sometimes.
    Thanks for the links, Archetype0ne. Very usefull. I am posting them again.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memnon_(mythology)
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herodes_Atticus

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    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    Geneticists use the term "European", "African" or "East Asian" not merely in a geographical sense, for a reason.Europe, for instance, has low genetic diversity unlike Africa. Therefore, all Europeans cluster pretty close to each other. However, in Africa all of its completely indigenous genetic clusters are greatly divergent from the indigenous components found outside Africa. Aside from the people from the Horn of Africa, most SSA people have only minor admixture from outside Africa. The SSA populations clearly form a separate group of peoples and cluster very much away from Europeans. Although there is a great genetic diversity within SSA, the pattern is that all other human outside SSA cluster much closer to each other than to any of those, basically forming a separate branch of humankind. So, "European" and "African" is a broadly genetic component. Hence, you won't find, for example, a native African that has the genetic make of any European and vise versa.

    did geneticists cluster genomes and then label the resulting groups "european", "african", "east asian"? no they didn't. they sequenced genomes and then labeled them with their geographic origin. of course you will have a rough correlation with geography and genetics but those categories are based primarily on geography. if you would try to cluster the genomes you would get groups that do not correspond to geograhic borders. especially not "european" or "african".

    "SSA" is not "african" btw.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    For the record, since they don't want to be cancelled, geneticists don't use the term 'race' anymore. They call them "continental breeding populations". In other words they bred only with each other for long enough that they are different from one another.
    never heard any geneticist use that term for human populations. can you give an example?

    populations are different but different enough to call it race? if you had a "mixed race" sibling you would be more related to him/her than to any other person, including those you consider "your race", except maybe your close relatives. i think it was Krause who said, there are 4.1-4.2 million differences in the genomes of 2 random central europeans. there are 4.3-4.4 million differences between a random central european and someone from east asia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    never heard any geneticist use that term for human populations. can you give an example?

    populations are different but different enough to call it race? if you had a "mixed race" sibling you would be more related to him/her than to any other person, including those you consider "your race", except maybe your close relatives. i think it was Krause who said, there are 4.1-4.2 million differences in the genomes of 2 random central europeans. there are 4.3-4.4 million differences between a random central european and someone from east asia.
    Have to agree here. Have only heard "Breeding" used in relation to animals, wildlife, fish and birds.

    https://duckduckgo.com/?q=continenta...=v255-1&ia=web
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

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    "Walsh & Yun reviewed the literature in 2011 and reported that "Genetic studies using very few chromosomal loci find that genetic polymorphisms divide human populations into clusters with almost 100 percent accuracy and that they correspond to the traditional anthropological categories."[99]"

    "
    As anthropologists and other evolutionary scientists have shifted away from the language of race to the term
    population to talk about genetic differences..."

    Anyone interested can read David Reich's opinion piece in the New York Times. The only reason he got away with it is because of his stature and his connections.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/23/o...tics-race.html

    It would take someone of really limited intelligence not to see what this means. There are 3 poles.


    Now I'm out. This is OFF TOPIC

    @Archetype One

    E tu, Brute? :) You should know not to doubt me when I emphatically state something as fact. I do it only if I know absolutely that the proof exists. Otherwise, I qualify.

    Read:
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...al_Populations

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Have to agree here. Have only heard "Breeding" used in relation to animals, wildlife, fish and birds.

    https://duckduckgo.com/?q=continenta...=v255-1&ia=web
    Humans are animals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    "Walsh & Yun reviewed the literature in 2011 and reported that "Genetic studies using very few chromosomal loci find that genetic polymorphisms divide human populations into clusters with almost 100 percent accuracy and that they correspond to the traditional anthropological categories."[99]"
    "
    As anthropologists and other evolutionary scientists have shifted away from the language of race to the term
    population to talk about genetic differences..."
    Anyone interested can read David Reich's opinion piece in the New York Times. The only reason he got away with it is because of his stature and his connections.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/23/o...tics-race.html
    It would take someone of really limited intelligence not to see what this means. There are 3 poles.

    Now I'm out. This is OFF TOPIC
    @Archetype One
    E tu, Brute? :) You should know not to doubt me when I emphatically state something as fact. I do it only if I know absolutely that the proof exists. Otherwise, I qualify.
    Read:
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...al_Populations
    Archetype has a bad habit of doing that it seems. He's done it to me too

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    "Walsh & Yun reviewed the literature in 2011 and reported that "Genetic studies using very few chromosomal loci find that genetic polymorphisms divide human populations into clusters with almost 100 percent accuracy and that they correspond to the traditional anthropological categories."[99]"

    "
    As anthropologists and other evolutionary scientists have shifted away from the language of race to the term
    population to talk about genetic differences..."

    Anyone interested can read David Reich's opinion piece in the New York Times. The only reason he got away with it is because of his stature and his connections.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/23/o...tics-race.html

    It would take someone of really limited intelligence not to see what this means. There are 3 poles.


    Now I'm out. This is OFF TOPIC

    @Archetype One

    E tu, Brute? :) You should know not to doubt me when I emphatically state something as fact. I do it only if I know absolutely that the proof exists. Otherwise, I qualify.

    Read:
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...al_Populations
    I mean... I didn't use any ad hominem, not sure about the Brutus analogy .
    Just stated have not encountered it used in relation to humans. Have heard it in regards to dogs, cattle and horses... And after searching the first pages on interenet indexes it reinforced what I thought.

    I still think there is no room for self censorship in science, it defeats the purpose. And can't say I fall into SJW crowd. So scientists can use whatever term they want as long as its well defined and serves a purpose. But still it kind of felt wrong to hear the term "human breeding", it almost reminded me of eugenics *yikes*. Again, please don't misunderstand me this is not directed at you. Surprising they used in that scientific article but after taking a look it makes sense. What surprises me more that the author states : "".
    So if I was to follow the logic, we as humans have breeds? Like here is a German Shepherd, and here is a Pomeranian, also on exhibit c we have a Husky. xD
    That would make NA a different breed to SSA, to SEA etc. I cringed just writing that.

    Hope you understand why it sounds so peculiar to me.
    Yet, no one can say this scientist writing the paper is into eugenics ofc, I mean he is a poc, and it seems today that is enough alibi not to be referred to as a racist.

    Now I can be Brutus, trying to backstab you. Or I could be saying what I believe the evidence suggests: One scientist mentions breeding populations as a term used by geneticists without naming those geneticists or even providing a reference to what he means.
    Meanwhile (overwhelmingly) 6670 index pages of academic papers (didn't check them all ofc), in JStor relate such a term to animals, wildlife, fish and birds:
    https://www.jstor.org/action/doBasic...a18390c9f94d48

    @Jovialis

    Correct. But you know what I mean.

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    @Archetype One,

    Whether it makes people "cringe" or not, there are 3 "poles" of humanity. West Eurasian/East Asian/SSA. You might, if you want, add SA or Americas

    That they are "different" from one another is a scientific fact, as one can see from the PCA. The differences arose over time because they only "admixed" with one another, if you prefer that word to "breeding". What do you think happened when the Indo-Europeans arrived? They "bred" with the locals, or "admixed", if you want to use that term.

    I would suggest everyone read Reich's opinion piece carefully and take it to heart.

    If we ignore science, we eventually go into the abyss.

    I'm sorry to disturb your innocence, but being a "person of color" doesn't protect you if you don't hue to the "party line". Razib Khan, who is about as SA and "brown" as you can get, is called a "white supremacist" for his genetic writings.

    This is what the "woke" crowd (often very leftist white Democrats who pay fortunes to live in certain neighborhoods so their kids needn't go to school with POC", say about Tim Scott, "BLACK" senator who happens to be a Republican, because he looked at the "economic" effects of the stimulus bill and the social effects of the rhetoric coming out.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IiKcoTxZSs

    I begin to have some hope for this country. Now that parents know what is in the newly adopted Education Dept curriculums, which schools have to except if they want federal funds, particularly the ones regarding race, they are absolutely crazed. In the grade one section, children are told to compare their skin color to a chart. If they are "darker" than a certain number they are to sit in a color "affiliated" group at lunch time. Mixed race children are told they MUST identify as "Black" and sit at that table because the "white" affiliated children will never accept them. In addition to being completely and demonstrably UNTRUE, it's evil and toxic and divisive. I thought the whole CIVIL RIGHTS movement was about the "content of one's character", not COLOR, and that it was also about Freedom of Choice of Affiliation. What am I missing?

    Just so you know; I was kidding with the "E tu, Brute". That's why I put a smiley. It had to do with the fact that usually your commentary is more reason based than a lot of what I see here.

    It's disheartening to read the majority of what is being posted here lately. It's a-scientific illogical nonsense, and I have less and less time for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duarte View Post
    Yes, this problem with editing is happening sometimes.
    Thanks for the links, Archetype0ne. Very usefull. I am posting them again.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memnon_(mythology)
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herodes_Atticus
    Memnon as per Herodotus referred to the light-skinned africans from libya in his Iliad book

    Many texts state this for
    . Herodotus (1.46) used Λιβύη Libúē to indicate the African continent; the Líbues proper were the light-skinned North Africans, while those south of Egypt (and Elephantine on the Nile) were known to him as "Aethiopians";[3] this was also the understanding of later Greek geographers such Diodorus Siculus, Strabo, etc.

    I have even seen the reference to Susa in other odd ancient historians refer to Iran


    Aethiopians .................The Cambridge History of North Africa and the people between them ( Libyans ) as the Egyptians, p. 141. ................................I recall the mention of Cyrene in Libya as the Aethiopians ............Cyrene is eastern Libya , Benghazi area ...........instead of western Libya and tripoli
    Fathers mtdna ... T2b17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    @Archetype One,

    Whether it makes people "cringe" or not, there are 3 "poles" of humanity. West Eurasian/East Asian/SSA. You might, if you want, add SA or Americas

    That they are "different" from one another is a scientific fact, as one can see from the PCA. The differences arose over time because they only "admixed" with one another, if you prefer that word to "breeding". What do you think happened when the Indo-Europeans arrived? They "bred" with the locals, or "admixed", if you want to use that term.

    I would suggest everyone read Reich's opinion piece carefully and take it to heart.

    If we ignore science, we eventually go into the abyss.

    I'm sorry to disturb your innocence, but being a "person of color" doesn't protect you if you don't hue to the "party line". Razib Khan, who is about as SA and "brown" as you can get, is called a "white supremacist" for his genetic writings.

    This is what the "woke" crowd (often very leftist white Democrats who pay fortunes to live in certain neighborhoods so their kids needn't go to school with POC", say about Tim Scott, "BLACK" senator who happens to be a Republican, because he looked at the "economic" effects of the stimulus bill and the social effects of the rhetoric coming out.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IiKcoTxZSs

    I begin to have some hope for this country. Now that parents know what is in the newly adopted Education Dept curriculums, which schools have to except if they want federal funds, particularly the ones regarding race, they are absolutely crazed. In the grade one section, children are told to compare their skin color to a chart. If they are "darker" than a certain number they are to sit in a color "affiliated" group at lunch time. Mixed race children are told they MUST identify as "Black" and sit at that table because the "white" affiliated children will never accept them. In addition to being completely and demonstrably UNTRUE, it's evil and toxic and divisive. I thought the whole CIVIL RIGHTS movement was about the "content of one's character", not COLOR, and that it was also about Freedom of Choice of Affiliation. What am I missing?

    Just so you know; I was kidding with the "E tu, Brute". That's why I put a smiley. It had to do with the fact that usually your commentary is more reason based than a lot of what I see here.

    It's disheartening to read the majority of what is being posted here lately. It's a-scientific illogical nonsense, and I have less and less time for it.
    That is so evil " In the grade one section, children are told to compare their skin color to a chart. If they are "darker" than a certain number they are to sit in a color "affiliated" group at lunch time. Mixed race children are told they MUST identify as "Black" and sit at that table because the "white" affiliated children will never accept them." How can they do this to children? Sounds like segregation... Being told they will never be accepted. This just boils my blood. If I was a parent of the children I would sue them. This has the hallmark of human right abuse...

    Yeah Angela I agree with what you said. There is poles, and you have to be blind not to notice differences. Glad you understand my point wasn't about being politically correct, rather not falling prey to rhetoric of division both from the right and the left. The "breeding" thing was just a personal observation.

    On matters of education/public health-medicine/welfare I would say I am center-left, on matters of economy, propriety and business center right. And I hate the narrative from both extreme sides of the horseshoe describing us centrists as apathetic, we just like to critically think and do not believe one size fits all solutions, like subscribing to party ideology and letting it dictate ones life and personal freedom/choices. Even more ironic if that black politician is called a white supremacist, since his skin color should not dictate his ideology, if he is republican I am sure it is based on what he thinks is right, and no - being republican does not make one a white supremacist, I agree.

    But what you are telling me happens in grade school, that thing legit breaks my heart, no kids should be indoctrinated to see themselves as different based on the shade of their skin. No kids should be told their children friends will never accept them. That is truly despicable. If it keeps up like this it is a recipe for disaster and social strife in the future. All great empires can only be corroded from within.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaska View Post
    .............

    We have three half black Mycenaean, who cares if they had one of the most advanced bronze age cultures in Europe when the Nordics were still in their balls trying to find some fish to eat?
    Gaska, can you please show me the 3 half black Mycenaeans in that study? Or was this a satire attempt ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    Memnon as per Herodotus referred to the light-skinned africans from libya in his Iliad book

    Many texts state this for
    . Herodotus (1.46) used Λιβύη Libúē to indicate the African continent; the Líbues proper were the light-skinned North Africans, while those south of Egypt (and Elephantine on the Nile) were known to him as "Aethiopians";[3] this was also the understanding of later Greek geographers such Diodorus Siculus, Strabo, etc.

    I have even seen the reference to Susa in other odd ancient historians refer to Iran


    Aethiopians .................The Cambridge History of North Africa and the people between them ( Libyans ) as the Egyptians, p. 141. ................................I recall the mention of Cyrene in Libya as the Aethiopians ............Cyrene is eastern Libya , Benghazi area ...........instead of western Libya and tripoli
    You might wanna re read the Herodotus quote. It does not say what you claim it says. In fact it contradicts your conclusion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    You might wanna re read the Herodotus quote. It does not say what you claim it says. In fact it contradicts your conclusion.
    I know ,....there are too many theories

    This from more Herodotus

    After this Cambyses planned three expeditions, against the Carchedonians,8 against the Ammonians, and against the “long-lived”9 Ethiopians, who inhabit that part of Libya that is on the southern sea. [2] He decided after consideration to send his fleet against the Carthaginians and a part of his land army against the Ammonians;

    Ethiopians who inhabit Libya
    Aethiopia, as a generic or ethnic designation, comprises the inhabitants of Africa who dwelt between the equator, the Red Sea, and the Atlantic, for Strabo speaks of Hesperian Aethiopians S. of the Pharusii and Mauri, and Herodotus (4.197) describes them as occupying the whole of South Libya.

    The boundaries of the African Aethiopians are necessarily indefinite. If they were, as seems probable, the ancestors of the Shangallas, Bisháries, and Nubians, their frontiers may be loosely stated as to the S. the Abyssinian Highlands, to the W. the Libyan desert, to the N. Egypt and Marmarica, and to the E. the Indian Ocean and the Red Sea. The boundaries of Aethiopia Proper, or Meroe, will admit of more particular definition.

    so this says from Morocco to the red sea are Aethiopians live


    Too many historians have too many theories....but since Herodutus used aethiopians in his Iliad, then what he says , be it right or wrong needs to be taken into account

    or

    http://www.rhm.uni-koeln.de/112/M-Drews.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    I know ,....there are too many theories

    This from more Herodotus

    After this Cambyses planned three expeditions, against the Carchedonians,8 against the Ammonians, and against the “long-lived”9 Ethiopians, who inhabit that part of Libya that is on the southern sea. [2] He decided after consideration to send his fleet against the Carthaginians and a part of his land army against the Ammonians;

    Ethiopians who inhabit Libya
    Aethiopia, as a generic or ethnic designation, comprises the inhabitants of Africa who dwelt between the equator, the Red Sea, and the Atlantic, for Strabo speaks of Hesperian Aethiopians S. of the Pharusii and Mauri, and Herodotus (4.197) describes them as occupying the whole of South Libya.

    The boundaries of the African Aethiopians are necessarily indefinite. If they were, as seems probable, the ancestors of the Shangallas, Bisháries, and Nubians, their frontiers may be loosely stated as to the S. the Abyssinian Highlands, to the W. the Libyan desert, to the N. Egypt and Marmarica, and to the E. the Indian Ocean and the Red Sea. The boundaries of Aethiopia Proper, or Meroe, will admit of more particular definition.

    so this says from Morocco to the red sea are Aethiopians live


    Too many historians have too many theories....but since Herodutus used aethiopians in his Iliad, then what he says , be it right or wrong needs to be taken into account

    or

    http://www.rhm.uni-koeln.de/112/M-Drews.pdf
    Yeah... I just got really confused now.

    First he says they are South of Egypt.

    Then he says:

    "Ethiopians, who inhabit that part of Libya that is on the southern sea. "


    And then:

    "The boundaries of the African Aethiopians are necessarily indefinite. If they were, as seems probable, the ancestors of the Shangallas, Bisháries, and Nubians" ... "their frontiers may be loosely stated as to the S. the Abyssinian Highlands, to the W. the Libyan desert"Abyssinia is another name for Ethiopia.

    So yeah, I just got even more confused. All this from the same guy... SMH.
    But I mean, technically he is not wrong, Ethiopia is south of Libya.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Yeah... I just got really confused now.

    First he says they are South of Egypt.

    Then he says:

    "Ethiopians, who inhabit that part of Libya that is on the southern sea. "


    And then:

    "The boundaries of the African Aethiopians are necessarily indefinite. If they were, as seems probable, the ancestors of the Shangallas, Bisháries, and Nubians" ... "their frontiers may be loosely stated as to the S. the Abyssinian Highlands, to the W. the Libyan desert"Abyssinia is another name for Ethiopia.

    So yeah, I just got even more confused. All this from the same guy... SMH.
    But I mean, technically he is not wrong, Ethiopia is south of Libya.
    Libya was the Greek name for Africa.

  20. #295
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philjames100 View Post
    Libya was the Greek name for Africa.
    If that is the case. South of the Libyan(African) desert (Sahara?), would indeed be Ethiopia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I ran the samples through the K13 Modern so there would be no squawking from other places.

    Distance to: Greece_MBA_Log02
    3.95887610 Tuscan
    8.18320842 North_Italian
    9.02556923 West_Sicilian
    9.20050542 Greek_Thessaly
    9.67008273 Italian_Abruzzo
    12.67926654 Central_Greek
    13.35816604 East_Sicilian
    14.66986367 Bulgarian
    15.02793066 South_Italian
    15.55129898 Romanian
    16.80972933 Ashkenazi
    17.95004457 Spanish_Extremadura
    18.02786454 Portuguese
    18.75250117 Spanish_Andalucia
    19.22330097 Spanish_Murcia
    19.26025182 Serbian
    19.50536080 Spanish_Valencia
    19.51763818 Spanish_Galicia
    20.30129060 Spanish_Cataluna
    20.56086088 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
    21.11848479 Italian_Jewish
    21.14110688 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
    21.51626594 Sephardic_Jewish
    21.53301883 Algerian_Jewish
    23.12442215 Spanish_Cantabria

    Log4
    Distance to: Greece_MBA_Log04
    8.35465738 Romanian
    9.15210905 Bulgarian
    11.49876080 Greek_Thessaly
    11.76738289 Serbian
    12.66054106 Tuscan
    12.79527647 North_Italian
    14.23441955 Italian_Abruzzo
    16.80767384 West_Sicilian
    17.33217240 Central_Greek
    18.76695500 East_Sicilian
    19.11081108 Moldavian
    19.34580833 Hungarian
    19.40008505 Portuguese
    19.79225354 French
    20.08691365 Spanish_Extremadura
    20.52343051 Spanish_Galicia
    20.62840517 Austrian
    20.92206491 Spanish_Cataluna
    21.09877011 West_German
    21.27530258 Spanish_Murcia
    21.36302179 South_Italian
    21.70000230 Spanish_Andalucia
    21.75738036 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
    21.82477262 Spanish_Valencia
    22.01043389 Croatian

    Well, well, here's a surprise, this sample is closest to admixed Jews (i.e. those which mixed with Europeans), but then Mycenaeans were pretty close to them as well.
    Distance to: Greece_MBA_Mik15
    18.52527193 Algerian_Jewish
    19.47616492 Italian_Jewish
    22.04608582 Sephardic_Jewish
    22.59917919 Tunisian_Jewish
    22.62203572 Libyan_Jewish
    23.48751370 South_Italian
    24.23913159 West_Sicilian
    24.41921375 Ashkenazi
    25.45199992 Tunisian
    25.51561875 East_Sicilian
    26.79552761 Algerian
    26.84176969 Sardinian
    27.07234382 Central_Greek
    27.57608565 Mozabite_Berber
    27.78684401 Cyprian
    27.93904973 Moroccan
    28.34711096 Tuscan
    28.77691262 Italian_Abruzzo
    30.96489141 Greek_Thessaly
    31.25588905 Samaritan
    33.31969238 Lebanese_Christian
    33.32246239 North_Italian
    34.06860725 Egyptian
    34.22980865 Lebanese_Muslim
    34.40983580 Palestinian
    Distance to: Greece_MBA_Mik15
    18.52527193 Algerian_Jewish
    19.47616492 Italian_Jewish
    22.04608582 Sephardic_Jewish
    22.59917919 Tunisian_Jewish
    22.62203572 Libyan_Jewish
    23.48751370 South_Italian
    24.23913159 West_Sicilian
    24.41921375 Ashkenazi
    25.45199992 Tunisian
    25.51561875 East_Sicilian
    26.79552761 Algerian
    26.84176969 Sardinian
    27.07234382 Central_Greek
    27.57608565 Mozabite_Berber
    27.78684401 Cyprian
    27.93904973 Moroccan
    28.34711096 Tuscan
    28.77691262 Italian_Abruzzo
    30.96489141 Greek_Thessaly
    31.25588905 Samaritan
    33.31969238 Lebanese_Christian
    33.32246239 North_Italian
    34.06860725 Egyptian
    34.22980865 Lebanese_Muslim
    34.40983580 Palestinian

    The first three were Middle Bronze Age. Now for the Early Bronze Age. Much the same for the first one...
    Distance to: Greece_EBA_Pta08
    16.32743091 Algerian_Jewish
    17.79478294 Italian_Jewish
    19.81873861 Tunisian_Jewish
    19.92590776 Libyan_Jewish
    20.18929915 Sephardic_Jewish
    22.12526158 South_Italian
    22.56049202 Cyprian
    23.31849266 Ashkenazi
    24.53357903 East_Sicilian
    24.91526440 West_Sicilian
    25.69987549 Tunisian
    25.91040525 Samaritan
    25.97189442 Central_Greek
    27.59686214 Algerian
    27.73495628 Lebanese_Christian
    28.45815876 Mozabite_Berber
    28.80092707 Moroccan
    28.81681107 Italian_Abruzzo
    29.38614469 Lebanese_Muslim
    30.18337125 Palestinian
    30.34125245 Syrian
    30.55785987 Tuscan
    30.63102349 Lebanese_Druze
    31.10842008 Jordanian
    31.11900705 Greek_Thessaly

    Same again...
    Distance to: EBA:Greece_EBA_Kou01
    16.19176643 Algerian_Jewish
    17.37221345 Italian_Jewish
    19.43704453 Tunisian_Jewish
    19.70652937 Libyan_Jewish
    19.86622007 Sephardic_Jewish
    21.27427320 Cyprian
    21.80122703 South_Italian
    23.07222139 Ashkenazi
    24.47097464 East_Sicilian
    24.97725766 Samaritan
    25.12103302 West_Sicilian
    25.75772894 Central_Greek
    26.47167354 Lebanese_Christian
    27.11146805 Tunisian
    28.29519040 Lebanese_Muslim
    28.72263045 Italian_Abruzzo
    29.05404103 Lebanese_Druze
    29.13735232 Algerian
    29.56914946 Palestinian
    29.63970142 Syrian
    30.08778324 Mozabite_Berber
    30.45786105 Jordanian
    30.62695382 Moroccan
    31.04383192 Tuscan
    31.22407565 Greek_Thessaly

    And once more...
    Distance to: EBA:Greece_EBA_Kou03
    11.04838450 Algerian_Jewish
    12.02086103 Italian_Jewish
    12.72752922 South_Italian
    12.99317513 Sephardic_Jewish
    14.37239020 Cyprian
    14.59525265 Tunisian_Jewish
    15.21940866 Libyan_Jewish
    16.36783736 East_Sicilian
    17.17588135 Central_Greek
    17.55569708 Ashkenazi
    17.96173711 West_Sicilian
    20.08987805 Italian_Abruzzo
    21.06931655 Lebanese_Muslim
    21.61782366 Samaritan
    22.77767767 Lebanese_Christian
    22.87203970 Syrian
    24.39007995 Greek_Thessaly
    24.76770074 Lebanese_Druze
    24.78269154 Tuscan
    25.58807926 Jordanian
    25.73555323 Palestinian
    26.03208021 Tunisian
    27.06813994 Turkish
    27.66145694 Algerian
    28.11674768 Assyrian

    So, even in the Middle Bronze, where we see the increased steppe is from a settlement on the periphery of the Mycenaean world, the other Middle Bronze Age settlements were still like the much later Mycenaean samples we have.

    Now, it could be that there are actual Mycenaean samples which have more steppe, brought by these peripheral people. We don't know. However, if there weren't a lot of them, how much change could they have wrought? We just don't know and won't know until we have more samples.

    What we do know, however, is when Bronze Age Greece flourished, and when it got temporarily knocked down.

    "The Early Bronze Age (3200-2000 B.C.) is characterised by the spread of metal, the use of which is already known in the Final Neolithic or Chalcolithic period. The Northeastern Aegean, the Cyclades and Mainland Greece are home to specific cultural groups during this period.Initially the way of life in all aspects continues along the lines of its Neolithic predecessor. The general development of the second phase of the period (2700-2200 B.C.) leads to the creation of organised settlements, the construction of monumental buildings and a controlled economy with the accumulation of goods and the use of seals. This is the time of the first urban development, communication between settlements and commerce by sea with the shipping of metal objects, Melian obsidian and fine pottery throughout the Aegean.
    In the Northeastern Aegean, Poliochni in Lemnos and Troy in Asia Minor become prominent as strong proto-urban centres.To this same period belong the graves of Leukas in the Ionian Sea, with their rich funerary equipment. In Mainland Greece, Boeotian Orchomenos beside the Kopais lake, Lerna in the Argolid and Aegina are among the important centres of this time -for the well-known Neolithic sites such as Sesklo and Lianokladi we have less evidence. In Attica there are many small but important settlements such as Raphina, Askitario and Ag. Kosmas. The imported objects found in these settlements provide evidence of their habitual communication with the Cyclades.
    The development observable during the second phase of the Early Bronze Age comes to an end during the third and last phase of the Period (2200-2000 B.C.). Evident are destructions, the abandonment of settlements and a general disorganisation that has been traditionally associated with the incursion of new populations. The Middle Bronze Age (2000-1600 B.C.) is characterised initially by an economic and cultural decline,as can be seen in the poor remains of the settlements and in the poverty of the burials. It is a time of re establishment and by the middle of the period, development is evident. The growth in population and consequent necessity of further cultivation of the fertile land leads to the appearance of new settlements in opportune places. The most important of these have bronze workshops. Graves are now supplied with bronze weapons and jewellery of gold, bronze and semi-precious stones, in addition to pottery. The pottery of the period, for the most part wheel-made, comprises two main categories Minyan ware and Matt Painted.

    Toward the end of the Middle Bronze Age, the richly provided tombs of Mainland Greece bespeak the rise of anumber of ruling groups. The influence of the advanced culture of Minoan Crete, the importation of luxurious and beautifully worked vessels and weapons, the spread of new ideas and techniques is to bring about basic changes that are observable in all levels of life and art. The end of the Middle Helladic Period is marked by social change rather than by catastrophe. It is the time of the Shaft Graves at Mycenae and the new warrior aristocracy which introduces us to the Mycenaean period. "

    The Log samples are dated to 2000 to 1800 BC.
    The EBA-MBA transition was likely triggered by climate change.
    And it didn't just happen in Greece.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4.2-kiloyear_event

    Ancient Egypt[edit]

    In c. 2150 BC, Egypt was hit by a series of exceptionally-low Nile floods that may have influenced the collapse of the centralised government of the Old Kingdom after a famine.[25]
    Arabian Peninsula[edit]

    In the Persian Gulf region, there is a sudden change in settlement pattern, style of pottery and tombs. The 22nd century BC drought marks the end of the Umm Al Nar culture and the change to the Wadi Suq culture.[11]
    Mesopotamia[edit]

    The aridification of Mesopotamia may have been related to the onset of cooler sea-surface temperatures in the North Atlantic (Bond event 3), as analysis of the modern instrumental record shows that large (50%) interannual reductions in Mesopotamian water supply result when subpolar northwest Atlantic sea surface temperatures are anomalously cool.[26] The headwaters of the Tigris and Euphrates rivers are fed by elevation-induced capture of winter Mediterranean rainfall.
    The Akkadian Empire in 2300 BC was the second civilisation to subsume independent societies into a single state (the first being ancient Egypt in around 3100 BC). It has been claimed that the collapse of the state was influenced by a wide-ranging, centuries-long drought.[27][28] Archaeological evidence documents widespread abandonment of the agricultural plains of northern Mesopotamia and dramatic influxes of refugees into southern Mesopotamia, around 2170 BC.[29] A 180-km-long wall, the "Repeller of the Amorites," was built across central Mesopotamia to stem nomadic incursions to the south. Around 2150 BC, the Gutian people, who originally inhabited the Zagros Mountains, defeated the demoralised Akkadian army, took Akkad and destroyed it around 2115 BC. Widespread agricultural change in the Near East is visible at the end of the 3rd millennium BC.[30]
    Resettlement of the northern plains by smaller sedentary populations occurred near 1900 BC, three centuries after the collapse.[29]
    A study of fossil corals in Oman provides evidence that prolonged winter shamal seasons, around 4200 years ago, led to the salinization of the irrigated field, which made, a dramatic decrease in crop production trigger a widespread famine and eventually the collapse of the ancient Akkadian Empire.[31][32]


    We also know there was increased warfare and development of bronze armory in the Sintashta area with fortified settlements near wet places where there was winter fodder for the cattle.


    The palatial kingdoms must have been hit, if not by immeadiate, then by secondary efftects.



  22. #297
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Yes, I know, Bicicleur. Your beloved steppe people just came in like a bunch of peaceful shepherds to pick up the pieces.

    Just like at the end of the Roman Empire, when there was a climate change producing reduced crop yields, and REDUCED STEPPE GRASS.

    Only problem for your theory is that we have a lot of evidence for what happened after that climate change. The Germanic peoples started to STARVE. They also were under attack from the HUNS, who were also started to starve. So, they FLED and poured into the Roman Empire.

    Are you seriously going to say that their arrival was peaceful?

    The men of the steppe poured into a LN Europe weakened by crop failures and the disease brought by steppe people themselves. No group would have accepted being taken over peacefully. If you don't believe me, go ask Johanne Krause.

    You're embarrassing yourself by your refusal to accept the conclusions of Krause, Reich, Anthony, everyone, and convince no one.

  23. #298
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Yes, I know, Bicicleur. Your beloved steppe people just came in like a bunch of peaceful shepherds to pick up the pieces.

    Just like at the end of the Roman Empire, when there was a climate change producing reduced crop yields, and REDUCED STEPPE GRASS.

    Only problem for your theory is that we have a lot of evidence for what happened after that climate change. The Germanic peoples started to STARVE. They also were under attack from the HUNS, who were also started to starve. So, they FLED and poured into the Roman Empire.

    Are you seriously going to say that their arrival was peaceful?

    The men of the steppe poured into a LN Europe weakened by crop failures and the disease brought by steppe people themselves. No group would have accepted being taken over peacefully. If you don't believe me, go ask Johanne Krause.

    You're embarrassing yourself by your refusal to accept the conclusions of Krause, Reich, Anthony, everyone, and convince no one.
    My dear Angela,
    where did I say they were peaceful?
    I merely pointed out some circumstances which may have triggered the EBA-MBA transition and you accuse me of being biased.
    I obviously said something you don't want to be told.
    You're the one who is embarrissing herself.

  24. #299
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    3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur 2 View Post
    My dear Angela,
    where did I say they were peaceful?
    I merely pointed out some circumstances which may have triggered the EBA-MBA transition and you accuse me of being biased.
    I obviously said something you don't want to be told.
    You're the one who is embarrissing herself.
    Please...

    You've been doing this for years.

    I just said in my post that climate change and disease weakened the farmer cultures and ensured their loss against the invading steppe people. I've been saying that for ten years and everyone knows it.

    You're the one who every time someone mentions that the arrival of steppe people brought death and destruction and a decline of civilization in its wake tries to excuse it or changes the subject to show there was violence in Neolithic culture.

    Anyone who thinks that's the same as the arrival of a warrior culture hasn't been reading his David Anthony.

    You also have always tried to wriggle around the fact that they brought the plague. E-mail Johannes Krause, as I said.

    Do you think everyone's forgotten everything you've ever said because there's a 2 after your name?

    I have no time for this nonsense.

    The facts are what they are. The steppe people didn't have as advanced a civilization as did the people of "Old Europe". Their arrival signaled a decline in civilization until it could be built up again. Period.

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    when there is environmental stress it comes down to survival of the fittest
    not only on the steppe, it is like this worldwide
    the palatial dynasties were just not fit enough, just like the dynasties in Egypt or Mesopotamia
    and there is no clue whatsoever that the plague was involved
    I even doubt there was a large invasion, otherwise much more steppe DNA, especially Y-DNA would have been carried down to southern Greece

    sorry to doubt your interpretations and phantasies, I always feel the urge to react

    P.S. if the IE wouldn't have invaded Italy during the late bronze age, Rome would never have existed
    and if they wouldn't have thrown off the yoke of the Etruscans while resisting the Greeks, it would have remained a small vasal city

    anyway, soon or later you'll start your rhetorique again
    and I'll feel the urge to react again

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