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I would like proof of that beyond his word.Originally Posted by Jovialis
Fine, here are all the other authors from the study, you can e-mail each one about it and they will tell you the same:
Iosif Lazaridis, Alissa Mittnik, Nick Patterson, Swapan Mallick, Nadin Rohland, Saskia Pfrengle, Anja Furtwängler, Alexander Peltzer, Cosimo Posth, Andonis Vasilakis, P. J. P. McGeorge, Eleni Konsolaki-Yannopoulou, George Korres, Holley Martlew, Manolis Michalodimitrakis, Mehmet Özsait, Nesrin Özsait, Anastasia Papathanasiou, Michael Richards, Songül Alpaslan Roodenberg, Yannis Tzedakis, Robert Arnott, Daniel M. Fernandes, Jeffery R. Hughey, Dimitra M. Lotakis, Patrick A. Navas, Yannis Maniatis, John A. Stamatoyannopoulos, Kristin Stewardson, Philipp Stockhammer, Ron Pinhasi, David Reich, Johannes Krause & George Stamatoyannopoulos
For the record, since they don't want to be cancelled, geneticists don't use the term 'race' anymore. They call them "continental breeding populations". In other words they bred only with each other for long enough that they are different from one another. It's a neat little trick to avoid the roving Woke Revolution gangs. Let's hope they go the way of Mao's Cultural Revolution gangs, scurrying off under the rocks and hoping no one will remember what they said and did in their hey-dey.
You know what I sometimes think? All these names people use to t-roll here and on anthrogenica and eurogenes (oh yes, he comes here) and the apricity. It seems like dozens and dozens of people, right, maybe at least 100. It's probably 10 people living in their mothers' basements. It's really sad and pathetic if you think about it. You have to feel sorry for them, and at least they're not out shooting people if they're glued to their computers trying to keep track of all their socks. :)
Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci
Yes, this problem with editing is happening sometimes.
Thanks for the links, Archetype0ne. Very usefull. I am posting them again.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memnon_(mythology)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herodes_Atticus
did geneticists cluster genomes and then label the resulting groups "european", "african", "east asian"? no they didn't. they sequenced genomes and then labeled them with their geographic origin. of course you will have a rough correlation with geography and genetics but those categories are based primarily on geography. if you would try to cluster the genomes you would get groups that do not correspond to geograhic borders. especially not "european" or "african".
"SSA" is not "african" btw.
never heard any geneticist use that term for human populations. can you give an example?
populations are different but different enough to call it race? if you had a "mixed race" sibling you would be more related to him/her than to any other person, including those you consider "your race", except maybe your close relatives. i think it was Krause who said, there are 4.1-4.2 million differences in the genomes of 2 random central europeans. there are 4.3-4.4 million differences between a random central european and someone from east asia.
Have to agree here. Have only heard "Breeding" used in relation to animals, wildlife, fish and birds.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=continenta...=v255-1&ia=web
“Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”
― Franz Kafka
"Walsh & Yun reviewed the literature in 2011 and reported that "Genetic studies using very few chromosomal loci find that genetic polymorphisms divide human populations into clusters with almost 100 percent accuracy and that they correspond to the traditional anthropological categories."[99]"
"As anthropologists and other evolutionary scientists have shifted away from the language of race to the termpopulation to talk about genetic differences..."
Anyone interested can read David Reich's opinion piece in the New York Times. The only reason he got away with it is because of his stature and his connections.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/23/o...tics-race.html
It would take someone of really limited intelligence not to see what this means. There are 3 poles.
Now I'm out. This is OFF TOPIC
@Archetype One
E tu, Brute? :) You should know not to doubt me when I emphatically state something as fact. I do it only if I know absolutely that the proof exists. Otherwise, I qualify.
Read:
https://www.researchgate.net/publica...al_Populations
Humans are animals.
Archetype has a bad habit of doing that it seems. He's done it to me too"Walsh & Yun reviewed the literature in 2011 and reported that "Genetic studies using very few chromosomal loci find that genetic polymorphisms divide human populations into clusters with almost 100 percent accuracy and that they correspond to the traditional anthropological categories."[99]"
"As anthropologists and other evolutionary scientists have shifted away from the language of race to the termpopulation to talk about genetic differences..."
Anyone interested can read David Reich's opinion piece in the New York Times. The only reason he got away with it is because of his stature and his connections.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/23/o...tics-race.html
It would take someone of really limited intelligence not to see what this means. There are 3 poles.
Now I'm out. This is OFF TOPIC
@Archetype One
E tu, Brute? :) You should know not to doubt me when I emphatically state something as fact. I do it only if I know absolutely that the proof exists. Otherwise, I qualify.
Read:
https://www.researchgate.net/publica...al_Populations
I mean... I didn't use any ad hominem, not sure about the Brutus analogy"Walsh & Yun reviewed the literature in 2011 and reported that "Genetic studies using very few chromosomal loci find that genetic polymorphisms divide human populations into clusters with almost 100 percent accuracy and that they correspond to the traditional anthropological categories."[99]"
"As anthropologists and other evolutionary scientists have shifted away from the language of race to the termpopulation to talk about genetic differences..."
Anyone interested can read David Reich's opinion piece in the New York Times. The only reason he got away with it is because of his stature and his connections.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/23/o...tics-race.html
It would take someone of really limited intelligence not to see what this means. There are 3 poles.
Now I'm out. This is OFF TOPIC
@Archetype One
E tu, Brute? :) You should know not to doubt me when I emphatically state something as fact. I do it only if I know absolutely that the proof exists. Otherwise, I qualify.
Read:
https://www.researchgate.net/publica...al_Populations.
Just stated have not encountered it used in relation to humans. Have heard it in regards to dogs, cattle and horses... And after searching the first pages on interenet indexes it reinforced what I thought.
I still think there is no room for self censorship in science, it defeats the purpose. And can't say I fall into SJW crowd. So scientists can use whatever term they want as long as its well defined and serves a purpose. But still it kind of felt wrong to hear the term "human breeding", it almost reminded me of eugenics *yikes*. Again, please don't misunderstand me this is not directed at you. Surprising they used in that scientific article but after taking a look it makes sense. What surprises me more that the author states : "".
So if I was to follow the logic, we as humans have breeds? Like here is a German Shepherd, and here is a Pomeranian, also on exhibit c we have a Husky. xD
That would make NA a different breed to SSA, to SEA etc. I cringed just writing that.
Hope you understand why it sounds so peculiar to me.
Yet, no one can say this scientist writing the paper is into eugenics ofc, I mean he is a poc, and it seems today that is enough alibi not to be referred to as a racist.
Now I can be Brutus, trying to backstab you. Or I could be saying what I believe the evidence suggests: One scientist mentions breeding populations as a term used by geneticists without naming those geneticists or even providing a reference to what he means.
Meanwhile (overwhelmingly) 6670 index pages of academic papers (didn't check them all ofc), in JStor relate such a term to animals, wildlife, fish and birds:
https://www.jstor.org/action/doBasic...a18390c9f94d48
@Jovialis
Correct. But you know what I mean.
@Archetype One,
Whether it makes people "cringe" or not, there are 3 "poles" of humanity. West Eurasian/East Asian/SSA. You might, if you want, add SA or Americas
That they are "different" from one another is a scientific fact, as one can see from the PCA. The differences arose over time because they only "admixed" with one another, if you prefer that word to "breeding". What do you think happened when the Indo-Europeans arrived? They "bred" with the locals, or "admixed", if you want to use that term.
I would suggest everyone read Reich's opinion piece carefully and take it to heart.
If we ignore science, we eventually go into the abyss.
I'm sorry to disturb your innocence, but being a "person of color" doesn't protect you if you don't hue to the "party line". Razib Khan, who is about as SA and "brown" as you can get, is called a "white supremacist" for his genetic writings.
This is what the "woke" crowd (often very leftist white Democrats who pay fortunes to live in certain neighborhoods so their kids needn't go to school with POC", say about Tim Scott, "BLACK" senator who happens to be a Republican, because he looked at the "economic" effects of the stimulus bill and the social effects of the rhetoric coming out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IiKcoTxZSs
I begin to have some hope for this country. Now that parents know what is in the newly adopted Education Dept curriculums, which schools have to except if they want federal funds, particularly the ones regarding race, they are absolutely crazed. In the grade one section, children are told to compare their skin color to a chart. If they are "darker" than a certain number they are to sit in a color "affiliated" group at lunch time. Mixed race children are told they MUST identify as "Black" and sit at that table because the "white" affiliated children will never accept them. In addition to being completely and demonstrably UNTRUE, it's evil and toxic and divisive. I thought the whole CIVIL RIGHTS movement was about the "content of one's character", not COLOR, and that it was also about Freedom of Choice of Affiliation. What am I missing?
Just so you know; I was kidding with the "E tu, Brute". That's why I put a smiley. It had to do with the fact that usually your commentary is more reason based than a lot of what I see here.
It's disheartening to read the majority of what is being posted here lately. It's a-scientific illogical nonsense, and I have less and less time for it.
Memnon as per Herodotus referred to the light-skinned africans from libya in his Iliad book
Many texts state this for
. Herodotus (1.46) used Λιβύη Libúē to indicate the African continent; the Líbues proper were the light-skinned North Africans, while those south of Egypt (and Elephantine on the Nile) were known to him as "Aethiopians";[3] this was also the understanding of later Greek geographers such Diodorus Siculus, Strabo, etc.
I have even seen the reference to Susa in other odd ancient historians refer to Iran
Aethiopians .................The Cambridge History of North Africa and the people between them ( Libyans ) as the Egyptians, p. 141. ................................I recall the mention of Cyrene in Libya as the Aethiopians ............Cyrene is eastern Libya , Benghazi area ...........instead of western Libya and tripoli
Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
Wife paternal line ..... R1a-PF6155
That is so evil " In the grade one section, children are told to compare their skin color to a chart. If they are "darker" than a certain number they are to sit in a color "affiliated" group at lunch time. Mixed race children are told they MUST identify as "Black" and sit at that table because the "white" affiliated children will never accept them." How can they do this to children? Sounds like segregation... Being told they will never be accepted. This just boils my blood. If I was a parent of the children I would sue them. This has the hallmark of human right abuse...
Yeah Angela I agree with what you said. There is poles, and you have to be blind not to notice differences. Glad you understand my point wasn't about being politically correct, rather not falling prey to rhetoric of division both from the right and the left. The "breeding" thing was just a personal observation.
On matters of education/public health-medicine/welfare I would say I am center-left, on matters of economy, propriety and business center right. And I hate the narrative from both extreme sides of the horseshoe describing us centrists as apathetic, we just like to critically think and do not believe one size fits all solutions, like subscribing to party ideology and letting it dictate ones life and personal freedom/choices. Even more ironic if that black politician is called a white supremacist, since his skin color should not dictate his ideology, if he is republican I am sure it is based on what he thinks is right, and no - being republican does not make one a white supremacist, I agree.
But what you are telling me happens in grade school, that thing legit breaks my heart, no kids should be indoctrinated to see themselves as different based on the shade of their skin. No kids should be told their children friends will never accept them. That is truly despicable. If it keeps up like this it is a recipe for disaster and social strife in the future. All great empires can only be corroded from within.
Gaska, can you please show me the 3 half black Mycenaeans in that study? Or was this a satire attempt ?
You might wanna re read the Herodotus quote. It does not say what you claim it says. In fact it contradicts your conclusion.
I know ,....there are too many theories
This from more Herodotus
After this Cambyses planned three expeditions, against the Carchedonians,8 against the Ammonians, and against the “long-lived”9 Ethiopians, who inhabit that part of Libya that is on the southern sea. [2] He decided after consideration to send his fleet against the Carthaginians and a part of his land army against the Ammonians;
Ethiopians who inhabit Libya
Aethiopia, as a generic or ethnic designation, comprises the inhabitants of Africa who dwelt between the equator, the Red Sea, and the Atlantic, for Strabo speaks of Hesperian Aethiopians S. of the Pharusii and Mauri, and Herodotus (4.197) describes them as occupying the whole of South Libya.
The boundaries of the African Aethiopians are necessarily indefinite. If they were, as seems probable, the ancestors of the Shangallas, Bisháries, and Nubians, their frontiers may be loosely stated as to the S. the Abyssinian Highlands, to the W. the Libyan desert, to the N. Egypt and Marmarica, and to the E. the Indian Ocean and the Red Sea. The boundaries of Aethiopia Proper, or Meroe, will admit of more particular definition.
so this says from Morocco to the red sea are Aethiopians live
Too many historians have too many theories....but since Herodutus used aethiopians in his Iliad, then what he says , be it right or wrong needs to be taken into account
or
http://www.rhm.uni-koeln.de/112/M-Drews.pdf
Yeah... I just got really confused now.
First he says they are South of Egypt.
Then he says:
"Ethiopians, who inhabit that part of Libya that is on the southern sea. "
And then:
"The boundaries of the African Aethiopians are necessarily indefinite. If they were, as seems probable, the ancestors of the Shangallas, Bisháries, and Nubians" ... "their frontiers may be loosely stated as to the S. the Abyssinian Highlands, to the W. the Libyan desert"Abyssinia is another name for Ethiopia.
So yeah, I just got even more confused. All this from the same guy... SMH.
But I mean, technically he is not wrong, Ethiopia is south of Libya.
Libya was the Greek name for Africa.
If that is the case. South of the Libyan(African) desert (Sahara?), would indeed be Ethiopia.
The EBA-MBA transition was likely triggered by climate change.
And it didn't just happen in Greece.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4.2-kiloyear_event
Ancient Egypt[edit]
In c. 2150 BC, Egypt was hit by a series of exceptionally-low Nile floods that may have influenced the collapse of the centralised government of the Old Kingdom after a famine.[25]
Arabian Peninsula[edit]
In the Persian Gulf region, there is a sudden change in settlement pattern, style of pottery and tombs. The 22nd century BC drought marks the end of the Umm Al Nar culture and the change to the Wadi Suq culture.[11]
Mesopotamia[edit]
The aridification of Mesopotamia may have been related to the onset of cooler sea-surface temperatures in the North Atlantic (Bond event 3), as analysis of the modern instrumental record shows that large (50%) interannual reductions in Mesopotamian water supply result when subpolar northwest Atlantic sea surface temperatures are anomalously cool.[26] The headwaters of the Tigris and Euphrates rivers are fed by elevation-induced capture of winter Mediterranean rainfall.
The Akkadian Empire in 2300 BC was the second civilisation to subsume independent societies into a single state (the first being ancient Egypt in around 3100 BC). It has been claimed that the collapse of the state was influenced by a wide-ranging, centuries-long drought.[27][28] Archaeological evidence documents widespread abandonment of the agricultural plains of northern Mesopotamia and dramatic influxes of refugees into southern Mesopotamia, around 2170 BC.[29] A 180-km-long wall, the "Repeller of the Amorites," was built across central Mesopotamia to stem nomadic incursions to the south. Around 2150 BC, the Gutian people, who originally inhabited the Zagros Mountains, defeated the demoralised Akkadian army, took Akkad and destroyed it around 2115 BC. Widespread agricultural change in the Near East is visible at the end of the 3rd millennium BC.[30]
Resettlement of the northern plains by smaller sedentary populations occurred near 1900 BC, three centuries after the collapse.[29]
A study of fossil corals in Oman provides evidence that prolonged winter shamal seasons, around 4200 years ago, led to the salinization of the irrigated field, which made, a dramatic decrease in crop production trigger a widespread famine and eventually the collapse of the ancient Akkadian Empire.[31][32]
We also know there was increased warfare and development of bronze armory in the Sintashta area with fortified settlements near wet places where there was winter fodder for the cattle.
The palatial kingdoms must have been hit, if not by immeadiate, then by secondary efftects.
Yes, I know, Bicicleur. Your beloved steppe people just came in like a bunch of peaceful shepherds to pick up the pieces.
Just like at the end of the Roman Empire, when there was a climate change producing reduced crop yields, and REDUCED STEPPE GRASS.
Only problem for your theory is that we have a lot of evidence for what happened after that climate change. The Germanic peoples started to STARVE. They also were under attack from the HUNS, who were also started to starve. So, they FLED and poured into the Roman Empire.
Are you seriously going to say that their arrival was peaceful?
The men of the steppe poured into a LN Europe weakened by crop failures and the disease brought by steppe people themselves. No group would have accepted being taken over peacefully. If you don't believe me, go ask Johanne Krause.
You're embarrassing yourself by your refusal to accept the conclusions of Krause, Reich, Anthony, everyone, and convince no one.
My dear Angela,
where did I say they were peaceful?
I merely pointed out some circumstances which may have triggered the EBA-MBA transition and you accuse me of being biased.
I obviously said something you don't want to be told.
You're the one who is embarrissing herself.
Please...
You've been doing this for years.
I just said in my post that climate change and disease weakened the farmer cultures and ensured their loss against the invading steppe people. I've been saying that for ten years and everyone knows it.
You're the one who every time someone mentions that the arrival of steppe people brought death and destruction and a decline of civilization in its wake tries to excuse it or changes the subject to show there was violence in Neolithic culture.
Anyone who thinks that's the same as the arrival of a warrior culture hasn't been reading his David Anthony.
You also have always tried to wriggle around the fact that they brought the plague. E-mail Johannes Krause, as I said.
Do you think everyone's forgotten everything you've ever said because there's a 2 after your name?
I have no time for this nonsense.
The facts are what they are. The steppe people didn't have as advanced a civilization as did the people of "Old Europe". Their arrival signaled a decline in civilization until it could be built up again. Period.
when there is environmental stress it comes down to survival of the fittest
not only on the steppe, it is like this worldwide
the palatial dynasties were just not fit enough, just like the dynasties in Egypt or Mesopotamia
and there is no clue whatsoever that the plague was involved
I even doubt there was a large invasion, otherwise much more steppe DNA, especially Y-DNA would have been carried down to southern Greece
sorry to doubt your interpretations and phantasies, I always feel the urge to react
P.S. if the IE wouldn't have invaded Italy during the late bronze age, Rome would never have existed
and if they wouldn't have thrown off the yoke of the Etruscans while resisting the Greeks, it would have remained a small vasal city
anyway, soon or later you'll start your rhetorique again
and I'll feel the urge to react again
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