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Thread: The genomic history of the Aegean palatial civilizations.

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    you mention David Anthony
    yes the IE did have a warrior culture
    but maybe you should reread the last chapters
    how the BMAC cities lost their influence
    no destruction, the BMAC elite remained in their citadels
    but when the IE tribes took over the mining and trading activities the elite became simply redundant and lost it's grip on the local population
    you see, it is not always destruction, sometimes the redundant elite with to many priviliges simply loses it's control
    a well-organised society should always be able to hold off a loose federation of herders on the run

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    The Etruscans would not have existed either. They too had Steppe admixture as did the Ancient Greeks and Anatolians, though one could argue this would have effected the Italian peninsula more so than Asia Minor, which already had developed civilizations like the Hattians, and of course there were the Minoan and Cycladic civilizations of Crete and the Cyclades, in far southeastern Europe. There were well developed Neolithic societies in Southern/Southeastern Europe too, like the Vinca and Cucuteni-Trypillia cultures. It’s quite interesting we find Steppe ancestry even in non-Indo-European speakers, such as the Iberians, Basques, Vascones, Aquitainians, Etruscans, Georgians and Colchians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Johnson View Post
    The Etruscans would not have existed either. They too had Steppe admixture as did the Ancient Greeks and Anatolians, though one could argue this would have effected the Italian peninsula more so than Asia Minor, which already had developed civilizations like the Hattians, and of course there were the Minoan and Cycladic civilizations of Crete and the Cyclades, in far southeastern Europe. There were well developed Neolithic societies in Southern/Southeastern Europe too, like the Vinca and Cucuteni-Trypillia cultures. It’s quite interesting we find Steppe ancestry even in non-Indo-European speakers, such as the Iberians, Basques, Vascones, Aquitainians, Etruscans, Georgians and Colchians.
    history is not a straight line and often it makes a strange turn
    we're the result of many events and mixtures and we should get rid of stereotypes
    more than 99 % of the human DNA is the same worldwide and we're all programmed more or less the same way, except for some weirdoes
    yet we all prefer our own DNA, that is the result of some innate survival instinct

    many theories from archeologists and linguists have been disproven thanks to ancient DNA but there is still a lot we don't know

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur 2 View Post
    when there is environmental stress it comes down to survival of the fittest
    not only on the steppe, it is like this worldwide
    the palatial dynasties were just not fit enough, just like the dynasties in Egypt or Mesopotamia
    and there is no clue whatsoever that the plague was involved
    I even doubt there was a large invasion, otherwise much more steppe DNA, especially Y-DNA would have been carried down to southern Greece

    sorry to doubt your interpretations and phantasies, I always feel the urge to react

    P.S. if the IE wouldn't have invaded Italy during the late bronze age, Rome would never have existed
    and if they wouldn't have thrown off the yoke of the Etruscans while resisting the Greeks, it would have remained a small vasal city

    anyway, soon or later you'll start your rhetorique again
    and I'll feel the urge to react again
    Actually, it's a case of NO Etruscans NO Rome.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Yes, I know, Bicicleur. Your beloved steppe people just came in like a bunch of peaceful shepherds to pick up the pieces.

    Just like at the end of the Roman Empire, when there was a climate change producing reduced crop yields, and REDUCED STEPPE GRASS.

    Only problem for your theory is that we have a lot of evidence for what happened after that climate change. The Germanic peoples started to STARVE. They also were under attack from the HUNS, who were also started to starve. So, they FLED and poured into the Roman Empire.

    Are you seriously going to say that their arrival was peaceful?

    The men of the steppe poured into a LN Europe weakened by crop failures and the disease brought by steppe people themselves. No group would have accepted being taken over peacefully. If you don't believe me, go ask Johanne Krause.

    You're embarrassing yourself by your refusal to accept the conclusions of Krause, Reich, Anthony, everyone, and convince no one.
    Krause's opinion on this is, that there wasn't that much violence involved. he believes that most people died because of the mentioned diseases brought from the steppe while the interaction between those people who survived and the newcomers wasn't that brutal and more like a peaceful coexistance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    Krause's opinion on this is, that there wasn't that much violence involved. he believes that most people died because of the mentioned diseases brought from the steppe while the interaction between those people who survived and the newcomers wasn't that brutal and more like a peaceful coexistance.
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...ultural_crisis

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolit...l%20production.

    Rascovan et al (2019) suggest that plague could have also caused the population decline.[3] That is supported by the discovery of a tomb in modern-day Sweden containing 79 corpses buried within a short time, in which the authors discovered fragments of a unique strain of the plague pathogen Yersinia pestis.[1][4][5] The authors note that the strain contained the "plasminogen activator gene that is sufficient to cause pneumonic plague", an extremely deadly form of the plague which is airborne and directly communicable between humans.[6]
    A similar site was found in China in 2011. The site Hamin Mangha in northeast China dates back to approximately 5000 years ago and features a small structure filled with almost 100 bodies. This could mean the location faced an outbreak that surpassed what the village could handle. Two other sites like these have been found in Northeast China: Miaozigou and Laijia,[7][8] but archaeologists did not speculate as to the causal agent.[9]
    Conditions for the population increase that preceded that decline are generally ascribed to rapid population growth between 5950 and 5550 BP. That growth was catalysed by the introduction of agriculture,[2] along with the spread of technologies such as pottery, the wheel, and animal husbandry.[1] Following the Neolithic decline were massive human migrations from the Eurasian Steppe into eastern and central Europe, in approximately 4600 BP.[10]





    the population decline started around 5,5 ka BC, when the wheel was invented and prior to Yamna and Afanasievo
    first Yersenia Pestis was detected only 5 ka, but may have been present long before
    where? your guess is as good as mine

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    Actually, it's a case of NO Etruscans NO Rome.
    If we are going to speak in these terms wouldn't these populations owe more of their existence to Anatolian_N, since that was the super-majority of their autosomal DNA?

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    Yersinia Pestis could have originated in densely populated farmer settlements, no?

    Emergence and Spread of Basal Lineages of Yersinia pestis during the Neolithic Decline

    The model suggests that early Y. pestis strains likely emerged and spread from mega-settlements in Eastern Europe (built by the Trypillia Culture)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    If we are going to speak in these terms wouldn't these populations owe more of their existence to Anatolian_N, since that was the super-majority of their autosomal DNA?
    I totally agree.

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    yersinia pestis?, the plague?, invasions and conquests? these are fairy tales of some geneticists and archaeologists who want to square their “steppe theory" with the genetic results they are reaching. There is no archaeological demonstration of violent invasions in Western Europe, neither in Italy nor in Greece. The first R1b-L51 found in mainland Europe are three Swiss neolithic farmers buried in dolmens of the western megalithic culture (2.750 BC)- What conquests are we talking about?, if these gentlemen were not neolithic farmers, they were solitary explorers, and in that case it is absolutely impossible that they imposed their language on the neolithic farmers. It is absolutely impossible. I know that many people love the idea of having very tall, strong, blond and smart ancestors who rode horses and who subdued the European farmers, kept their women and taught them the language of the steppes, but that has to be demonstrated scientifically and so far we have only heard nonsense. We Basques have inherited our steppe ancestry from our women, not from our supposed steppe male ancestors and we are absolutely R1b-P312 like the rest of spaniards.

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    For those who are curious - The first R1b-P312>Df27 found in Spain (Burgos, Old Castile-2.434 BC) in a BB site was subjected to an exhaustive anthropological study - Brachycephalic, 1.85 meters tall, his achilles tendon was typical of a person who traveled long distances on foot through mountainous terrain, his weapons were a copper dagger and a wristguard. Other grave goods, several V perforated buttons, ciempozuelos type pottery and a pyrite sphere (to make fire I suppose)- These gentlemen were great navigators and miners or metallurgists who traveled in small family groups looking for copper mines. They followed the course of the great European rivers or the navigation routes that were known since the Neolithic and frequently practiced exogamy and even the adoption of children in other family groups. Conquests? NO way, geneticists should study well the European Chalcolithic to understand how the events unfolded.


    The Iberian Chalcolithic cultures such as Vilanova de San Pedro or Los Millares were not conquered, possibly there were revolutions or uprisings but motivated by a brutal climate change and the depletion of productive resources (they cut down all the forests and desertified their territory). These cities had more than 2,000 inhabitants, how can anyone believe that a few horsemen from the steppes conquered a territory of 1.2 million square kilometers (France and Spain) inhabited by more than a million people. Have we totally lost our minds?

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    what we are seeing in genetic terms is a massive founder effect of R1b>P312 in Western Europe after 2600 BC, not conquests or mass migrations.

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    On balance Middle East and European Farmers were mostly rh positive. Steppe had more rh negative (A-)than farmers- including ancient Iberians( &Basque ). There might have been and Rh incompatibility issue between + and -in pregnant steppe females(no modern day rhogam therapy).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    On balance Middle East and European Farmers were mostly rh positive. Steppe had more rh negative (A-)than farmers- including ancient Iberians( &Basque ). There might have been and Rh incompatibility issue between + and -in pregnant steppe females(no modern day rhogam therapy).
    That is quite interesting. And it makes a lot of sense. Could be one of the many factors for the founder effects of IE Y haplogroups.
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    Johannes Krause and the researchers at Max Plank know more about the plague than any scientists on earth.

    No, I'm not going to summarize it for you. I'm tired of doing the work for people too lazy to do it for themselves.

    On the original steppe which attacked Europe SIMULTANEOUSLY with the arrival of the steppe people, he is of the opinion that it was BROUGHT BY THE STEPPE HERDERS.

    @Silesian,

    Yes, that is Bicicleur's often repeated "theory". Unfortunately, it depends on the idea that crowded cities meant large stores of grain, which attracted rats, whose fleas spread the disease in the densely populated settlementss. The facts according to Krause are that it probably appeared first on the steppe, IS NOT transmitted by flees, and steppe people were fleeing the plague as well as the fact that there was less grass for their animals. Instead of outrunning it, they brought the plague with them.

    My personal hunch, although that's all it is, is that it was spread by eating the infected host, which was probably, as in many cases, marmosets, or creatures like them. You trade them on for the pelts, but what do you do with the meat? You eat it.

    https://phys.org/news/2017-11-plague...al-europe.html

    That particular type of plague is now extinct.

    Btw, in order to feed those herds the steppe arrivals engaged in a massive deforestation of Europe, a deforestation which makes what's happening to the Amazon look like child's play.


    The Bubonic plague was, once again according to Krause in a paper recently published by him, first found in Samara. THE STEPPE.

    https://novoscriptorium.com/2019/08/...n-study-finds/

    I don't know what is so difficult to grasp. The plague always comes from the steppe originally. It was the same with the Black Death, which spread from the Crimea, and earlier than that, the Justinian Plague. That's where the best hosts live.

    It's not the fault of the Steppe people that it arose amongst them, so those who can't bear that anything bad be connected to them should just chill out. They're just facts, just like it's a fact that influenza always seems to spread from China, and Sars viruses.

    Don't shoot the messenger.

    As for the population change brought by the steppe people, anyone who thinks it's just a coincidence that male LN yDna was virtually wiped out in Central Europe and Britain, but much of the MtDNA SURVIVED is seriously illogical or perhaps naïve, or just can't bear the idea that this warrior culture either killed or enslaved or otherwise took the local men out of the breeding pool, and that includes Krause if he's silly enough to say such a thing. Sorry, that's usually what happens with conquests. And no, I don't think the steppe women having a higher percentage of RH- is enough to explain it. It's not a big enough difference, no matter what that RH obsessed loon may be saying. Let's have a little common sense for goodness' sakes.

    A re-reading of David Anthony is a good idea.

    And no, I don't think it worked exactly the same way in every place. He never said it did, and I never said it did. In Greece and other parts of southern Europe there were too many farmers, maybe fewer crop failures, or it wasn't hit as much by the plague. As a result, the modern percentage of steppe is about 25-30% there, not 50% as it is in Central Europe, and even more in the more sparsely populated north east which probably didn't have any people until the steppe people arrived. Doesn't mean their arrival wasn't disruptive, just as the arrival of the Germanic tribes into the Empire was a horror for Europe. Anyone who can't see that it took almost 1000 years to recover intellectually and culturally and in almost every other way including the standard of living from the Germanic invasions either knows very little of the history and archaeology of Europe after the fall, or is biased because they correlate their ancestors being blameless in every possible way with, what was it, their survival? Sorry, that's not how I roll, or indeed how Italians roll. We're always our own worst critics, happy to wash our dirty linen quite publicly. People from other countries should try it some time; it's very freeing to know one is being completely honest.

    Which also brings me to the Latins. If the calculators others love so much are accurate, I'm about 70% Iron Age Latin, and about 25-30% "Greco-Italian", so half of that is also "Italic". Yet, I'm only 25% steppe. Like me, the Etruscans and Latins were SOUTHERN EUROPEANS, not predominantly, nor even half steppe. Even without that steppe admixture, they would have created great civilizations as the people responsible for most of their ancestry did in "Old Europe" and Anatolia.

    As for their culture, the "good bits" imo all came from the Etruscans, who got it from the Greeks, and they also came from Old Europe and Anatolia. The things I hate, particularly the very male centered religion, and the extremely warrior centered culture bent on conquest, came from the steppe.

    Some might respond that great conquests and warrior cultures eventually made their appearance in West Asia. Indeed they did. The Semites, of course, like the steppe people were herders. If you would read up on some anthropology you would read that herders are often more aggressive than farmers. The same goes for the herders of the Caucasus, btw.

    It's called the cycle of history, for those who have ever studied history. There's a civilized core built up over hundreds of years. Then there's the people of the periphery, waiting to see weakness for whatever reason. When they see it, they swoop in, there's a collapse, and the whole process of building a civilization has to start all over again. In case it isn't sufficiently clear, I'm ALWAYS for the civilized core, no matter the ethnicity. Imagine where we could be if we didn't have to keep starting all over again from scratch all the time.

    Hey, we can't like all the stuff some of our ancestors did. :)

    @Bicicleur,
    Don't you ever get tired of me proving you wrong?

    You really should do your homework before you discuss these things.


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    My dear Angela, I can't prove you wrong.
    Because in your mind the steppe and Nordic people are the plague in person.
    Your aversion is so strong, you can't keep it for yourself.
    From time to time I feel the urge to react.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur 2 View Post
    My dear Angela, I can't prove you wrong.
    Because in your mind the steppe and Nordic people are the plague in person.
    Your aversion is so strong, you can't keep it for yourself.
    From time to time I feel the urge to react.
    In material terms, the Steppe people were hardly a boon.

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    European subclades of R1b are rooted in Europe at least since the E***ravettian (Villabruna), and there is no R1b east of the Balkans until M****ithic Ukraine (R1b-V88) and later until the Khvalynsk culture (R1b-V1636) -The subclades of the steppes are very different from those of central and western Europe and the only R1b ​​that can currently be linked to Indo-European expansion is R1b-Z2103, which has been found after 3.000 BC alongside I2a-L699 in Bulgaria, Vucedol, eastern domain of the BBC (Hungary and Poland), and later in BA-Mocrin and Italy . It remains to locate this subclade in Greece and Anatolia which would help linguists to explain the Greek and Anatolian indoeuropean languages. And what about Germany, Switzerland, France, Iberia and the British isles?. Neither R1b-Z2103 nor R1a-M417 ever arrived here, because the BBC stopped the Indo-European expansion in Hungary where it mixed with local cultures. However we have R1b-L754 in Iboussieres, R1b-M269 in Iberia (ATP3) and R1b-P297 in Troms without a drop of steppe blood. What languages ​​did these R1b speak? Regarding Greece and Anatolia we only have J2 in both Chalcolithic and Bronze Age ergo R1b-IE's ship sailed a long time ago

    Regarding the percentage of steppe ancestry in mainland Europe, the truth is that the percentages mentioned by geneticists do not mean anything. Yamnaya is EHG (with significant WHG percentages) + CHG (Iran-Neolithic) and EEF (with WHG). These components are very similar to those of the European farmers (WHG + EEF) especially in Greece and the Balkans where CHG has also been detected in the Neolithic, ergo a similarity percentage of 20% with Yamnaya is perfectly possible without the need for massive migrations. or conquests. Something is seriously wrong with the so-called steppe ancestry and many researchers have already realized it

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    i think Krause comes to that conclusion because there is only very little archeological evidence of a large scale conquest and mass slaughter from that period. and because even 1000 years after the invasion of the steppe people there were still pure farmers living in the same regions. he thinks it was more likely that farmers married off their women to the steppe people like it was done in the middle ages were the women were mobile and the men stationary.


    as for the germanics invading rome, that wasn't really bad for europe. it was bad for rome but rome wasn't europe. we could argue if rome continued to exist in it's full power we might not be talking about "europe" all the time now. for some people in europe it was bad for others not so much and the same goes for many people who didn't live on that pile of dirt.

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    I know that there are people who continue to think about the genetic, cultural, technological and economic superiority of the horsemen of the Yamnaya culture, but these arguments do not make sense if geneticists are unable to establish patrilineal continuity between the steppes and Western Europe. Rumors, rumors and more rumors, no published samples and no confirmed theories, just wishful thinking. They have not yet found L51 or P310 in Bulgaria, Hungary, or Slovakia among the first Yamnaya settlers. Lineages under P312 only appear in that region with the arrival of the BBs. In fact, what happened was that Beakers from Western Europe with R1b-L51 moved east into the Carpathian Basin and mixed with Yamnaya groups there

    Kristiansen and Copenhagen group and his Kurganist followers said-Yamnaya men “switched identities” into Corded Ware, then “switched identities” into Bell Beakers…So, the most aggresive peoples who have ever existed, exterminating all other Europeans, were actually not so violent when embracing wholly different cultures-These great great steppe-like northerners switched culture, cephalic index…and Y-chromosome from R1a-M417, R1b-Z2103, I2a-L699 to R1b-L151. In other words, a swarthy Yamnaya R1b-Z2103 rider, tall and dolichocephalic with a good percentage of blood originating in the Caucasus and Iran, leaves all his steppe customs and becomes, thanks to his magic wand, first into a CWC R1a-M417 with his battle axes and his stone age culture and later on a Central European brachycephalic R1b-L51> P312, and all this without changing his language. Wonderful right?

    Lately D.Anthony, Prof Reich, Haak, Patterson and company have published a video where the firt one explain the absence of R1b-L51> P312 in the steppes saying that both that lineage and R1a-M417 were low class while Z2103 was the elite and therefore we only found that marker in Yamnaya because only they were buried in Kurgans- There are many ridiculous arguments but they themselves should have known that Z2103 has been located in poor and rich deposits, ergo those social differences did not exist. They must look for more convincing arguments.

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    Looking at the specific diagrams (Die Reise unserer Gene-Eine Geschicte uber uns und unsere vorfahren)-with regards to the spread of Yersinia Pestis evolutionary phylogeny trail. There are no corresponding Yamnaya snp's to correspond with the phylogeny Yersinia Pestis samples. If one takes the time to match these snp's, one can see that the outbreak of Yersinia Pestis in Sweden cannot be linked with the migration on the steppe, unlike the same branch of Yersinia found in R1a Corded Ware sample from Baltic and R1b-Z2103 sample from Vucedol.
    Rise and fall in city states come and go in cycles. https://www.eupedia.com/genetics/ancient_italy.shtml
    Latini tribe R1016-- R1b-Z2103 sample from Castel di Decima 900-700 bc arrived at the beginning of the ascent of Rome before it reached the 1000 000+/- in peak population. The decline in Rome 30,000 came from the corruption and collapse from within, urban wealth, property and or farmland became a burden to be stolen or taxed by corrupt leaders.
    The old saying what's mine is mine, and what's yours is mine. Either the leaders work for you, or you work for the leaders.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur 2 View Post
    My dear Angela, I can't prove you wrong.
    Because in your mind the steppe and Nordic people are the plague in person.
    Your aversion is so strong, you can't keep it for yourself.
    From time to time I feel the urge to react.
    You can't prove me wrong because the genetic data, history and archaeology are all in my favor. That's why you can't address any of my points.

    Apparently, when you do bother to keep up with and read the genetics papers you misinterpret them, and you seem to have no background whatsoever in ancient history and archaeology. That may explain a lot of it, along with your bias.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaska View Post
    Kristiansen and Copenhagen group and his Kurganist followers said-Yamnaya men “switched identities” into Corded Ware, then “switched identities” into Bell Beakers…So, the most aggresive peoples who have ever existed, exterminating all other Europeans, were actually not so violent when embracing wholly different cultures-These great great steppe-like northerners switched culture, cephalic index…and Y-chromosome from R1a-M417, R1b-Z2103, I2a-L699 to R1b-L151. In other words, a swarthy Yamnaya R1b-Z2103 rider, tall and dolichocephalic with a good percentage of blood originating in the Caucasus and Iran, leaves all his steppe customs and becomes, thanks to his magic wand, first into a CWC R1a-M417 with his battle axes and his stone age culture and later on a Central European brachycephalic R1b-L51> P312, and all this without changing his language. Wonderful right?
    I'm sure those marvels over at Anthrogenica can conjure up an answer.
    The Kurganist/Steppe Theory is like a religion to them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    In material terms, the Steppe people were hardly a boon.
    Don't bother, Vallicanus. These people have no understanding of history or archaeology.

    Listen to the nonsense posted that the fall of the Roman Empire was only bad for Rome. That's someone who has not picked up even a high school level book of European history.

    By the FAll, ALL OF EUROPE WITHIN THE BOUNDARIES OF THE EMPIRE WAS ROME, a Europe with education for the young, extremely high levels of literacy, functioning roads linking all areas of Europe and facilitating the exchange of goods, bathing facilities, heated floors or at least properly vented fireplaces, theaters, sports facilities, clean water from aqueducts, drained swamps to reduce malaria, sewers etc. Also, for these same uninformed folks, they considered themselves ROMANS.

    Do these ignorant people really have to be reminded what EUROPE became? Barbarians tearing down monumentally beautiful buildings, letting the aqueducts fall into disrepair, same for the sewers, building bonfires in the middle of their "castles" for heat, straw on the floors soon littered with dog droppings and meat bones, pieces of bread, feces falling down the sides of their tower walls into the moats, polluted water etc. Their castles were so toxic they had to leave every few months to go live in another castle so the previous one could be freshened. The poor serfs, who were the vast majority of the population had no such escape valve. Then there were the fevers from the mosquitos of reclaimed land returning to marsh, roads becoming overgrown, and those that survived impossibly dangerous because of brigands, which led to a precipitous drop in trade and most people barely traveling from the grounds of the "Lord's" castle. Oh and let's not forget they didn't bathe anymore. Hell, people didn't start bathing frequently in Europe until almost the 20th century. More important, there was near universal illiteracy. Their nobility couldn't read and write for God's sake. It was a hell hole, called the "DARK AGES" for a reason.

    Can you believe the ignorance of saying that EUROPE didn't suffer from the Germanic invasions and the Huns after them?

    It's just like the WOKEISTS. They don't want anyone to know any history either; that way they can spout any propaganda they wish, and there will be no one to contradict them.

    As for the continuing nonsense that there was no killing or enslavement of males, I will repeat: the male lines virtually disappeared, but NOT the MtDNA lines. Do you think starvation and plague somehow spared the females???? Have some intellectual honesty.

  25. #325
    Banned
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    23-01-21
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    144

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-Df27
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T2b3e

    Country: Spain



    1 members found this post helpful.

    Gene-flow from steppe individuals into Cucuteni-Trypillia associated populations indicates long-standing contacts and gradual admixture-Alexander Immel (2.019)-

    Recently, it was hypothesized that due to their high population densities, the CTC megasettlements served as a focus point for the emergence and large-scale radiation of Y. pestis lineages across Eurasia during the Neolithic. Amongst the four Moldovan specimens, we did not detect any signals of a Y. pestis infection, although the three individuals from Pocrovca were discovered in a multiple burial (without any traces of violence), which would render death due to an epidemic event plausible. Interestingly, we detected steppe-related ancestry in the Late Eneolithic CTC burials from the Republic of Moldova. The presence of this component suggests moderate genetic influx from individuals affiliated with steppe cultures into the CTC associated gene-pool as early as 3500 BCE; at the same time, archaeological evidence display an increase of quantity of Tripolyerelated finds in the steppe area. Thus, the steppe component had arrived in the eastern part of the continent in farmer communities well before it first appeared in the west, i.e. in the Corded Ware people around 2800 BCE. This finding establishes eastern Europe as an old genetic contact zone between locals and incoming steppe people, which is supported by two other early dating specimens from Ukraine

    One likely source population that could have introduced the steppe ancestry component into the CTC gene-pool might have been individuals associated with the eastern Eurasian M****ithic, e.g. the Ukraine M****ithic people, Eastern hunter-gatherers or even later-dating Yamnaya steppe pastoralists. However, this hypothesis challenges a previously published scenario of Yamnaya horsemen massively migrating in war into central Europe

    NO Yersinia pestis and NO massive migrations

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