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Thread: The genomic history of the Aegean palatial civilizations.

  1. #326
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    You can't prove me wrong because the genetic data, history and archaeology are all in my favor. That's why you can't address any of my points.

    Apparently, when you do bother to keep up with and read the genetics papers you misinterpret them, and you seem to have no background whatsoever in ancient history and archaeology. That may explain a lot of it, along with your bias.
    Well, well Angela, all this because I questioned your claim :

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post623117

    'It would seem so, but that is very far north. As I've said previously in this thread, as they moved south the steppe percentage became lower and lower.

    As I also speculated upthread (and provided data for the changes between the EBA and MBA in Greece), the coming of the steppe heavy "proto-Greeks", far from bringing civilization, almost completely destroyed EBA Greece, bringing poverty and decline, probably disease too; settlements abandoned, poor grave goods etc.

    It's been the same story everywhere.

    Other than the domesticated horse, their language, their "sky" gods, and a hugely militaristic and aggressive bent to society, they brought nothing of value except the domesticated horse.

    The authors are naïve if they think there has been 90% survival since the Log samples. Even if the Slavs didn't have the impact people have speculated (which I always tended to doubt), they must have had some, even if the overall similarity in terms of very ancient samples is the same as LOG samples. You have to have samples in every period, so you can see the proximate populations involved.'


    Prove it to me.
    How do you know EBA Greece was almost completely destroyed by the steppe people?
    Because I'm unable to properly interprete this paper.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Don't bother, Vallicanus. These people have no understanding of history or archaeology.

    Listen to the nonsense posted that the fall of the Roman Empire was only bad for Rome. That's someone who has not picked up even a high school level book of European history.

    By the FAll, ALL OF EUROPE WITHIN THE BOUNDARIES OF THE EMPIRE WAS ROME, a Europe with education for the young, extremely high levels of literacy, functioning roads linking all areas of Europe and facilitating the exchange of goods, bathing facilities, heated floors or at least properly vented fireplaces, theaters, sports facilities, clean water from aqueducts, drained swamps to reduce malaria, sewers etc. Also, for these same uninformed folks, they considered themselves ROMANS.

    Do these ignorant people really have to be reminded what EUROPE became? Barbarians tearing down monumentally beautiful buildings, letting the aqueducts fall into disrepair, same for the sewers, building bonfires in the middle of their "castles" for heat, straw on the floors soon littered with dog droppings and meat bones, pieces of bread, feces falling down the sides of their tower walls into the moats, polluted water etc. Their castles were so toxic they had to leave every few months to go live in another castle so the previous one could be freshened. The poor serfs, who were the vast majority of the population had no such escape valve. Then there were the fevers from the mosquitos of reclaimed land returning to marsh, roads becoming overgrown, and those that survived impossibly dangerous because of brigands, which led to a precipitous drop in trade and most people barely traveling from the grounds of the "Lord's" castle. Oh and let's not forget they didn't bathe anymore. Hell, people didn't start bathing frequently in Europe until almost the 20th century. More important, there was near universal illiteracy. Their nobility couldn't read and write for God's sake. It was a hell hole, called the "DARK AGES" for a reason.

    Can you believe the ignorance of saying that EUROPE didn't suffer from the Germanic invasions and the Huns after them?

    It's just like the WOKEISTS. They don't want anyone to know any history either; that way they can spout any propaganda they wish, and there will be no one to contradict them.

    As for the continuing nonsense that there was no killing or enslavement of males, I will repeat: the male lines virtually disappeared, but NOT the MtDNA lines. Do you think starvation and plague somehow spared the females???? Have some intellectual honesty.
    if you argue like this you could say that the fall of rome was bad for the entire world that wasn't "civilized". all of europe within the bounderies of rome was more or less roman but not all of europe was rome. why do you focus on "europe" so much? it didn't even really have a meaning back then.

    "have some intellectual honesty" say that to Krause if you want.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur 2 View Post


    How do you know EBA Greece was almost completely destroyed by the steppe people?
    Because I'm unable to properly interprete this paper.
    Let's put it this way.

    What could pastoral steppe people like these early IE types contribute to any settled culture?

    Monumental architecture, fixed abodes, advanced craftsmanship, literacy, agriculture?

    None of the above.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    Let's put it this way.

    What could pastoral steppe people like these early IE types contribute to any settled culture?

    Monumental architecture, fixed abodes, advanced craftsmanship, literacy, agriculture?

    None of the above.
    Maybe pastoral steppe people didn't judge people who had new ideas(like Giordano Bruno)as a threat to their survival.
    H. event.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    Maybe pastoral steppe people didn't judge people who had new ideas(like Giordano Bruno)as a threat to their survival.

    Let's get real here.

    The Steppe people had only one talent...WAR.
    They were bereft of any manual or intellectual skills.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    Let's get real here.

    The Steppe people had only one talent...WAR.
    They were bereft of any manual or intellectual skills.
    I will add Democracy as well. Early Democracy could be identified in pastoral tribes.

    It is equally common to suggest that this practice disappeared with the invention of agriculture—Robert Dahl said this in his 1998 book On Democracy.



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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    I will add Democracy as well. Early Democracy could be identified in pastoral tribes.

    It is equally common to suggest that this practice disappeared with the invention of agriculture—Robert Dahl said this in his 1998 book On Democracy.



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    Would that be democracy confined just to males?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    Let's put it this way.

    What could pastoral steppe people like these early IE types contribute to any settled culture?

    Monumental architecture, fixed abodes, advanced craftsmanship, literacy, agriculture?

    None of the above.
    you don't answer the question

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    Would that be democracy confined just to males?
    I have no clue, but what does it matters.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Don't bother, Vallicanus. These people have no understanding of history or archaeology.

    Listen to the nonsense posted that the fall of the Roman Empire was only bad for Rome. That's someone who has not picked up even a high school level book of European history.

    By the FAll, ALL OF EUROPE WITHIN THE BOUNDARIES OF THE EMPIRE WAS ROME, a Europe with education for the young, extremely high levels of literacy, functioning roads linking all areas of Europe and facilitating the exchange of goods, bathing facilities, heated floors or at least properly vented fireplaces, theaters, sports facilities, clean water from aqueducts, drained swamps to reduce malaria, sewers etc. Also, for these same uninformed folks, they considered themselves ROMANS.

    Do these ignorant people really have to be reminded what EUROPE became? Barbarians tearing down monumentally beautiful buildings, letting the aqueducts fall into disrepair, same for the sewers, building bonfires in the middle of their "castles" for heat, straw on the floors soon littered with dog droppings and meat bones, pieces of bread, feces falling down the sides of their tower walls into the moats, polluted water etc. Their castles were so toxic they had to leave every few months to go live in another castle so the previous one could be freshened. The poor serfs, who were the vast majority of the population had no such escape valve. Then there were the fevers from the mosquitos of reclaimed land returning to marsh, roads becoming overgrown, and those that survived impossibly dangerous because of brigands, which led to a precipitous drop in trade and most people barely traveling from the grounds of the "Lord's" castle. Oh and let's not forget they didn't bathe anymore. Hell, people didn't start bathing frequently in Europe until almost the 20th century. More important, there was near universal illiteracy. Their nobility couldn't read and write for God's sake. It was a hell hole, called the "DARK AGES" for a reason.

    Can you believe the ignorance of saying that EUROPE didn't suffer from the Germanic invasions and the Huns after them?

    It's just like the WOKEISTS. They don't want anyone to know any history either; that way they can spout any propaganda they wish, and there will be no one to contradict them.

    As for the continuing nonsense that there was no killing or enslavement of males, I will repeat: the male lines virtually disappeared, but NOT the MtDNA lines. Do you think starvation and plague somehow spared the females???? Have some intellectual honesty.
    What has Rome to do with the subject?
    I ask you to substantiate your claim about destruction of EBA Greece by invading steppe people, probably accompanied by diseases?
    You say I'm embarrasing myself by asking this.
    But you come with no arguments whatsoever.
    You're only confirming your own bias.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    Maybe pastoral steppe people didn't judge people who had new ideas(like Giordano Bruno)as a threat to their survival.
    I think you're right.
    The ability to learn from others and adapt.
    Otherwise they couldn't survive.
    They did more than just survive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Don't bother, Vallicanus. These people have no understanding of history or archaeology.

    Listen to the nonsense posted that the fall of the Roman Empire was only bad for Rome. That's someone who has not picked up even a high school level book of European history.

    By the FAll, ALL OF EUROPE WITHIN THE BOUNDARIES OF THE EMPIRE WAS ROME, a Europe with education for the young, extremely high levels of literacy, functioning roads linking all areas of Europe and facilitating the exchange of goods, bathing facilities, heated floors or at least properly vented fireplaces, theaters, sports facilities, clean water from aqueducts, drained swamps to reduce malaria, sewers etc. Also, for these same uninformed folks, they considered themselves ROMANS.

    Do these ignorant people really have to be reminded what EUROPE became? Barbarians tearing down monumentally beautiful buildings, letting the aqueducts fall into disrepair, same for the sewers, building bonfires in the middle of their "castles" for heat, straw on the floors soon littered with dog droppings and meat bones, pieces of bread, feces falling down the sides of their tower walls into the moats, polluted water etc. Their castles were so toxic they had to leave every few months to go live in another castle so the previous one could be freshened. The poor serfs, who were the vast majority of the population had no such escape valve. Then there were the fevers from the mosquitos of reclaimed land returning to marsh, roads becoming overgrown, and those that survived impossibly dangerous because of brigands, which led to a precipitous drop in trade and most people barely traveling from the grounds of the "Lord's" castle. Oh and let's not forget they didn't bathe anymore. Hell, people didn't start bathing frequently in Europe until almost the 20th century. More important, there was near universal illiteracy. Their nobility couldn't read and write for God's sake. It was a hell hole, called the "DARK AGES" for a reason.

    Can you believe the ignorance of saying that EUROPE didn't suffer from the Germanic invasions and the Huns after them?

    It's just like the WOKEISTS. They don't want anyone to know any history either; that way they can spout any propaganda they wish, and there will be no one to contradict them......

    Blaming the fall of the Western Roman Empire entirely to the Germanic tribes isn‘t completely correct. Some historians say that moral decay, the male Roman population becoming lazy and diseases weakened the Empire. So, Rome was in decline before the Germanics sounded the death kneel, gave the final blow to it. The thing is, that at one point, the empire was split into Western and Eastern empires. And the center of the Empire was not Rome anymore but Constantinople. So, the center of the Empire moved to the East, thus all the money, funds, innovation, and relevance, too. This move made the Western Empire a nonpriority and there wasn‘t much investment in that part of the Empire, thus its development started stagnating. Keep in mind that Germanic tribespeople became the bulk of the soldiers/mercenaries in West Rome. They were fighting against other German barbarians to stop their invasion and to secure the border. So, Germanic tribes made sure that the Western Empire didn‘t collapse earlier than it did. Furthermore, the Goths were not that destructive. The Vandals were, but they were outmatched by the Huns. To Romans, the Huns were the most savage of the savages.


    The bottom line is, that Rome had many issues. Eastern Rome became more important than the Western part. Hence, West Rome was pretty abandoned, lacked funds, and wasn‘t well-governed. Due to the lack of funds, the empire was unable to maintain its massive landholdings, and invading forces began to conquer them slowly, over time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur 2 View Post
    you don't answer the question
    You don't even understand the question.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    I have no clue, but what does it matters.


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    Pastoral Semitic speakers also had their form of male democracy. Phoenician city-states too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur 2 View Post
    I think you're right.
    The ability to learn from others and adapt.
    Otherwise they couldn't survive.
    They did more than just survive.
    They survived by exploiting unarmed farmers and craftsmen.
    Beginning, middle and end of the matter.

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    I don't even know how to respond to this 'goddam steppe brutes!' thread.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    For those who are interested, the article is here.

    https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S...674(21)00370-6





    It seems that what Giannopoylos describes as coming of the Hellenes (IE branch)
    what Georgiev believes as Proto-Greek Language,
    seems to be working model.

    Maybe the model could be factional also with Lazarides papper, about Myceneans and Minoans.
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

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    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

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    Interesting. Given the results it is safe to assume that some differences between mainland Greeks and Greek islanders (as well as Sicilians and South Italians) are not solely due to medieval migrations, but also due to Bronze Age and (quite likely) Iron Age migrations.

    That said, it seems to me quite of a coincidence that say, Thessalians are very identical to these Helladic Greeks. What probably happened is that the levels of Steppe admixture have remained the same regarding of some inevitable migrations. There were migrations from Northern Greece to Southern Greece and the way around. I can think of the Dorian invasion, as well as the Ionian colonies in Northern Greece. So the Steppe admixture was somewhat more diluted during the Classical Age. But the absorption of Slavs in the Middle Ages elevated the Steppe admixture levels once again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    For those who are interested, the article is here.

    https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S...674(21)00370-6





    It seems that what Giannopoylos describes as coming of the Hellenes (IE branch)
    what Georgiev believes as Proto-Greek Language,
    seems to be working model.

    Maybe the model could be factional also with Lazarides papper, about Myceneans and Minoans.
    Beautiful conclusion. Just beautiful.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    Pastoral Semitic speakers also had their form of male democracy. Phoenician city-states too.
    You may find it in North American Indian tribes as well, but how this relates to my point. The discussion was exchange between steppe people and European farmers or not?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Philjames100 View Post
    I don't even know how to respond to this 'goddam steppe brutes!' thread.
    I wasn't aware you were constrained to come here or to read the thread.


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    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    Blaming the fall of the Western Roman Empire entirely to the Germanic tribes isn‘t completely correct. Some historians say that moral decay, the male Roman population becoming lazy and diseases weakened the Empire. So, Rome was in decline before the Germanics sounded the death kneel, gave the final blow to it. The thing is, that at one point, the empire was split into Western and Eastern empires. And the center of the Empire was not Rome anymore but Constantinople. So, the center of the Empire moved to the East, thus all the money, funds, innovation, and relevance, too. This move made the Western Empire a nonpriority and there wasn‘t much investment in that part of the Empire, thus its development started stagnating. Keep in mind that Germanic tribespeople became the bulk of the soldiers/mercenaries in West Rome. They were fighting against other German barbarians to stop their invasion and to secure the border. So, Germanic tribes made sure that the Western Empire didn‘t collapse earlier than it did. Furthermore, the Goths were not that destructive. The Vandals were, but they were outmatched by the Huns. To Romans, the Huns were the most savage of the savages.


    The bottom line is, that Rome had many issues. Eastern Rome became more important than the Western part. Hence, West Rome was pretty abandoned, lacked funds, and wasn‘t well-governed. Due to the lack of funds, the empire was unable to maintain its massive landholdings, and invading forces began to conquer them slowly, over time.
    I'm quite familiar with the elementary school version.

    One of the reasons, btw, for the move of the capital to the east was because the western Empire was under constant attack from attacking tribes to the east. Too expensive to keep fighting them off.

    I would remind you that the Eastern Empire also had many issues, but they survived for another 1000 years because the hordes mostly poured into and devoured the west.

    Their time would come, of course, no empire lasts forever, but the fall of any civilization to barbaric invaders from the periphery is never a cause for rejoicing. Like I said, I'm always for the civilized core, no matter the ethnicity involved.

  23. #348
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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur 2 View Post
    I think you're right.
    The ability to learn from others and adapt.
    Otherwise they couldn't survive.
    They did more than just survive.
    You should know after my thousands of posts here that I don't state as fact something that I cannot prove.

    See:
    https://www.ling.upenn.edu/~rnoyer/c...nBronzeAge.pdf

    Is the University of Pennsylvania a good enough source for you? Note the word DESTRUCTION.

    Also please read the following article.

    https://www.greek-thesaurus.gr/p1b.html

    How many times does it have to be proved to you, pray tell?

    "The development observable during the second phase of the Early Bronze Age comes to an end during the third and last phase of the Period (2200-2000 B.C.). Evident are destructions, the abandonment of settlements and a general disorganisation that has been traditionally associated with the incursion of new populations. The Middle Bronze Age (2000-1600 B.C.) is characterised initially by an economic and cultural decline,as can be seen in the poor remains of the settlements and in the poverty of the burials."



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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaska View Post
    Gene-flow from steppe individuals into Cucuteni-Trypillia associated populations indicates long-standing contacts and gradual admixture-Alexander Immel (2.019)-

    Recently, it was hypothesized that due to their high population densities, the CTC megasettlements served as a focus point for the emergence and large-scale radiation of Y. pestis lineages across Eurasia during the Neolithic. Amongst the four Moldovan specimens, we did not detect any signals of a Y. pestis infection, although the three individuals from Pocrovca were discovered in a multiple burial (without any traces of violence), which would render death due to an epidemic event plausible. Interestingly, we detected steppe-related ancestry in the Late Eneolithic CTC burials from the Republic of Moldova. The presence of this component suggests moderate genetic influx from individuals affiliated with steppe cultures into the CTC associated gene-pool as early as 3500 BCE; at the same time, archaeological evidence display an increase of quantity of Tripolyerelated finds in the steppe area. Thus, the steppe component had arrived in the eastern part of the continent in farmer communities well before it first appeared in the west, i.e. in the Corded Ware people around 2800 BCE. This finding establishes eastern Europe as an old genetic contact zone between locals and incoming steppe people, which is supported by two other early dating specimens from Ukraine

    One likely source population that could have introduced the steppe ancestry component into the CTC gene-pool might have been individuals associated with the eastern Eurasian M****ithic, e.g. the Ukraine M****ithic people, Eastern hunter-gatherers or even later-dating Yamnaya steppe pastoralists. However, this hypothesis challenges a previously published scenario of Yamnaya horsemen massively migrating in war into central Europe

    NO Yersinia pestis and NO massive migrations
    Yeah, all those derived R1b men and R1a men just dropped out of spaceships or something.

    For goodness' sakes.

    Is this the kind of poster this site is now attracting?

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    don't you think it's good that alexander immel participates in some way in this forum? - he is a prestigious european researcher, to my knowledge, he has never said that R1a and R1b are Martians.

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