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Thread: The genomic history of the Aegean palatial civilizations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    Bummer
    So it was to good to be true.....
    It very well could be, I want to read the paper to see.

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    There are so many possibilities that without the paper in hand it's impossible to come to conclusions. The archaeological context and precise area is the most important.

    If they were the proto-Greeks then given the date they represent the Middle Bronze Age group which almost destroyed Greek civilization? So would that mean that the EBA people so like the Mycenaeans didn't speak Greek?

    Or were they people who lived on the periphery of Greek civilization?

    Either way, why didn't these researchers use samples from the Mycenaean period in that area to see if intermarriage with locals and/or movement of people from the south changed them?

    Also, comparison with samples from the Middle Bronze Age in the Peloponnese, especially, say, from Messenia where if I recall correctly the tholos tombs first originated would be very helpful.

    I'm done with it until we get the paper.


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    I e-mailed Razib Khan about the samples, he has made a twitter post regarding them:

    https://twitter.com/razibkhan/status...97079646285837

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    Possibly related to the Cetina culture migration?



    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...ed_Perspective
    Last edited by Philjames100; 29-01-21 at 02:53.

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    "There are four types of graves that are found at sites from the Middle Helladic period; pit graves, tholos graves, cist graves, and shaft graves. A pit grave is self explanatory, as it is simply a pit in the ground, while tholos styled graves are characterized as being more of a chamber like tomb. Cist graves and shaft graves are interesting because they are two styles of burial that originate from the Middle Helladic period itself, and it is believed that migrants who moved to Greece during this period influenced the creation of these new burial styles. Cist graves are deep and rectangular with a tumulus, or mound of earth, placed over top and came about during the beginning of the Middle Helladic period.Shaft graves are larger and deeper than cist graves (measuring on average 6 meters long, 4 meters wide, and 4 meters deep) and came about during the end of the Middle Helladic period."

    Middle Helladic


    "Proto-Cetina/Cetina, in the southern Balkans, appears as a Bell Beaker periphery connecting the West Adriatic coast with the East Adriatic area ca. 2400–2300 BC (...) Tumuli of several meters in diameter, primarily of stone, can have a kerb of large stones. They contain usually a rectangular cist grave made of stone slabs, with a stone-covering slab. A single person buried in a contracted position on the left or right side is the standard."

    Cetina culture






    “there is a continuum in the use of burial mounds throughout the Bronze and the Iron Age in a territory stretching from the Peloponnese, Central and Northern Greece through Albania to the Dalmatian coast up to the Caput Adriae. (…) Since the excavation of the Early Iron Age tumulus cemetery of Vergina in the middle of the 20th century, these mounds have definitely become an emblematic feature of the funerary landscape of Northern Greece. Tumuli have been equally characteristic of the Epirote highlands already since the Bronze Age, and their use continues deep into the Iron Age (…)

    Dozens of tumuli have been recently identified on coastal ridges in the Albanian districts of Lezha and Shkodra close to the border with Montenegro thanks to a new project carried out since 2014 by the Albanian Archaeological Institute. Their structure is quite similar to Montenegrinian tumuli, e.g. those of the Planinica Hill and those even further North in Dalmatia. There, mounds became an extremely popular form of burial monument already during the Early Bronze Age, when the so-called Cetina culture spread over Dalmatia. Within the Cetina tumuli both inhumation and cremation are attested. Cist graves are often – but not exclusively – placed in the middle of the tumulus, while simpler graves are built with smaller stones and placed in different parts of the tumulus. (…)

    Besides focusing on the chronological dimension of the tumulus phenomenon, this project has produced new data regarding mobility, ritual practices and cross-cultural interconnections, which have been analysed in the wider framework of the spread of the Cetina phenomenon across the Central Mediterranean. The eastern Adriatic coast is indeed important for the study of the diffusion of tumuli: it is no coincidence that the first Early Bronze Age tumuli of Greece appeared in the West, as on Lefkada island. Some grave goods from the EH IIB burial mound cemetery at Steno appears to have parallels with those from the early 3rd millennium BC burial mounds at Mala Gruda and Velika Gruda in Montenegro.”

    Krapf 2018


    "the first tumuli on the eastern shore of the Adriatic are identified with the Cetina Culture and they probably appear at the beginning of the second half of the third millennium B.C."

    Potrebica 2012


    “Warfare and a warrior culture did not evolve in the Aegean. Nor were they transferred there from points east. Rather, they spread to the Aegean from Europe in the Early to Middle Bronze Age, together with the tradition of tumulus burial, possibly through contact with the Cetina culture. (...)

    Local, transformative interactions between the Aegean and the Adriatic first occurred not during the Mycenaean period but rather during the Early Bronze Age, during which time ‘Helladic’ individuals interacted with ‘Cetina’ individuals. It was the former who were transformed through these interactions, however, not the latter. Cetina culture already emphasized the importance of warfare, metal weapons, and individualizing burial in monumental tombs, well before these became standard features of Helladic culture ... If there was any diffusion of objects, symbols, and ideas related to warrior aristocracy, it seems more likely that these moved from Europe to the Aegean via the Adriatic in the Early Bronze Age, not the other way around, and long before any meaningful contact was established with the eastern Mediterranean.

    In the dynamic region of the Adriatic, in the small-world where Epirus, Illyria, Italy, and the Ionian Islands all meet, creating a frontier zone that is still apparent today, aggrandizing Early Bronze Age ‘big men’ met and mixed in gateway communities up and down the coast. Those from the north transmitted war-related objects – e.g., shaft-hole hammer axes – to their southern neighbors. At first, these objects trickled into Greece, adopted by ‘learners’ who used them to leverage nascent forms of social inequality. Eventually they introduced new forms of burial as well, i.e., tumuli, which mark the shift to what is regarded as chiefdom-level political organization.”

    Galaty et al., 2017


    “Bell Beaker margins include parts of Eastern Poland, Moldova, and Romania, as well as Malta in the south… Surprisingly perhaps, one can argue that these Beaker margins also reached as far as the Early Bronze Age core, Greece, Crete and the Aegean. This European south-east has only recently come into the focus of Beaker research (Heyd 2007; Maran 2007). Besides conspicuous pottery evidence mostly from Olympia, it is again the wristguards, and the ‘Montgomery toggles’ (as on duffle coats), that form the majority of the diagnostic Beaker elements. As a result of this recent interest, more wristguards, both the broader four-holed and the oblong-narrow two-holed, are now known from the Aegean than from the whole of Italy, for example. They almost all date to Early Helladic III levels (as does the pottery evidence from Olympia), thus after 2200 BC in absolute terms. This makes them late Beaker, as compared to the central and western European examples. the best explanation for their relatively late appearance lies with a migratory event, rightly described by Maran (e.g. 1998) as bringing Adriatic Cetina people incrementally to southern Greece for some decades from the transition of Early Helladic II to III. And since early Cetina is one of those syncretistic Bell Beaker cultures of its south-eastern periphery as shown above, this best explains the manifestation of these Bell Beaker elements deep in south-east Europe.”

    Heyd 2013, p.63-64
    Last edited by Philjames100; 29-01-21 at 12:27.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Philjames100 View Post
    "There are four types of graves that are found at sites from the Middle Helladic period; pit graves, tholos graves, cist graves, and shaft graves. A pit grave is self explanatory, as it is simply a pit in the ground, while tholos styled graves are characterized as being more of a chamber like tomb. Cist graves and shaft graves are interesting because they are two styles of burial that originate from the Middle Helladic period itself, and it is believed that migrants who moved to Greece during this period influenced the creation of these new burial styles. Cist graves are deep and rectangular with a tumulus, or mound of earth, placed over top and came about during the beginning of the Middle Helladic period.Shaft graves are larger and deeper than cist graves (measuring on average 6 meters long, 4 meters wide, and 4 meters deep) and came about during the end of the Middle Helladic period."

    Middle Helladic


    "Proto-Cetina/Cetina, in the southern Balkans, appears as a Bell Beaker periphery connecting the West Adriatic coast with the East Adriatic area ca. 2400–2300 BC (...) Tumuli of several meters in diameter, primarily of stone, can have a kerb of large stones. They contain usually a rectangular cist grave made of stone slabs, with a stone-covering slab. A single person buried in a contracted position on the left or right side is the standard."

    see american indian burial:


    and
    The practice of digging shaft tombs was a widespread phenomenon with prominent examples found in
    Mycenaean Greece; in Bronze Age China; and in Mesoamerican Western Mexico

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    see american indian burial:


    "Stone box graves were a method of burial used by Native Americans of the Mississippian culture in the American Midwest and Southeast. Their construction was especially common in the Cumberland River Basin, in settlements found around present-day Nashville, Tennessee."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_box_grave

    Mississippian culture: c.800-1600 AD, so about 3000 years after the Cetina culture/ Early/Middle Helladic.
    It coincides instead with the Viking Age, when we know Europeans made it to North America. Interestingly there are similarities between some Mississippian and Viking artefacts:

    Mississippian:









    "Just over thirty Cox Mound-style gorgets have been found since the late nineteenth century, primarily from prehistoric Mississippian stone box graves and villages along the lower Tennessee, Cumberland, Duck, Harpeth, and Buffalo Rivers of Middle Tennessee, and the middle Tennessee River valley of northern Alabama. As a result of the frequent mortuary association of Cox Mound gorgets with certain pottery types, namely Matthews Incised, as well as other artifacts, it has been postulated that Cox Mound gorgets date to the period A.D. 1250-1450."

    Cox Mound Gorget

    Mississippian Shell Gorget

    ------------

    Viking:









    ---------------

    Hannunvaakuna symbol from Finland:

    Last edited by Philjames100; 29-01-21 at 16:45.

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    ^
    how about the other Mississippian culture?


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_Point

    Greek Theaters

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    ^
    how about the other Mississippian culture?


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_Point

    Greek Theaters
    maybe if the Greeks laid out their towns in the same way... otherwise it's just a vague similarity of basically unrelated things.

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    edit..................

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    Quote Originally Posted by Philjames100 View Post
    Possibly related to the Cetina culture migration?



    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...ed_Perspective
    Altamura is my father's town.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Altamura is my father's town.
    Ok. What do you think about these samples having something to do with Cetina?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Philjames100 View Post
    Ok. What do you think about these samples having something to do with Cetina?
    I'm not sure, perhaps. It did exist in the EBA. I want to read the paper to make the determination.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Altamura is my father's town.
    ... at confidence level High, in 1750 Altamura is in my Genetic Group :)

    ... though lately myheritage is just showing the Provincial Capitals.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    ... at confidence level High, in 1750 Altamura is in my Genetic Group :)

    ... though lately myheritage is just showing the Provincial Capitals.

    Pugliese are bracketed between these Illyrian-like Northern Greece EBA samples, and the Mycenaeans.



    I guess that makes perfect sense if you consider the fact that Puglia was colonized by both Illyrian, and Greek peoples.

    I didn't know it, but the now former Prime Minister of Italy, Giuseppe Conte, is Pugliese.



    He kind of looks like some of my relatives on my father's side.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Pugliese are bracketed between these Illyrian-like Northern Greece EBA samples, and the Mycenaeans.



    I guess that makes perfect sense if you consider the fact that Puglia was colonized by both Illyrian, and Greek peoples.

    I didn't know it, but the now former Prime Minister of Italy, Giuseppe Conte, is Pugliese.



    He kind of looks like some of my relatives on my father's side.

    I have fairly close relatives with that Surname, more distant ... Antonio Conte (former soccer player, coached Italy, now AC Milan).

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    ^^

    Yes, another pugliese, I have similar hair in terms of texture and color.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    I have fairly close relatives with that Surname, more distant ... Antonio Conte (former soccer player, coached Italy, now AC Milan).
    Fc Inter

    Inviato dal mio POT-LX1T utilizzando Tapatalk

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    It looks like the male ancient samples were
    Uploaded to yfull

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/G-PF3345/

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z36834*/
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-FGC7391/

    https://yfull.com/mtree/H3ap/

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    Here is the ENA page for this study:

    https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB37782

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    ^^

    Yes, another pugliese, I have similar hair in terms of texture and color.
    Jovialis: This fellow, to me, looks like a version of Joe Namath, but with lighter hair. For those not old enough or not from USA, the ole NY Jets QB who led them to Superbowl 3 win vs. Colts and was a well known Ladies Man and guy on all types of TV commercials in the early 70's (Even did one for panty hose).

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    Fascinating,

    The Cycladic, the Minoan, and the Helladic (Mycenaean) cultures define the Bronze Age (BA) of Greece. Urbanism, complex social structures, craft and agricultural specialization, and the earliest forms of writing characterize this iconic period. We sequenced six Early to Middle BA whole genomes, along with 11 mitochondrial genomes, sampled from the three BA cultures of the Aegean Sea. The Early BA (EBA) genomes are homogeneous and derive most of their ancestry from Neolithic Aegeans, contrary to earlier hypotheses that the Neolithic-EBA cultural transition was due to massive population turnover. EBA Aegeans were shaped by relatively small-scale migration from East of the Aegean, as evidenced by the Caucasus-related ancestry also detected in Anatolians. In contrast, Middle BA (MBA) individuals of northern Greece differ from EBA populations in showing ∼50% Pontic-Caspian Steppe-related ancestry, dated at ca. 2,600-2,000 BCE. Such gene flow events during the MBA contributed toward shaping present-day Greek genomes.
    So early Helladic cultures were mostly Anatolian_N/CHG-IN, while Northern Greeks later in the middle bronze age were 50% steppe?

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    Dodecad K12b:

    Code:
    EBA_Minoan_Petras:Pta08,0,0,3.85,0.33,34.73,0.38,0.14,0.05,14.68,0.48,43.65,1.72
    EBA_Cyclade_Koufanisi:Kou01,0.13,0,2.62,0,36.59,0.3,0,0,13.35,0.53,45.02,1.45
    EBA_Cyclade_Koufanisi:Kou03,4.64,0,2.77,0,32.51,1.12,0,0,11.34,0.32,45.28,2.02
    EBA_Helladic_Manika:Mik15,0,0,5.75,0.07,41.42,0.91,0,0.03,13.26,0.69,35.94,1.94
    MBA_Helladic_Logkas:Log02,2.02,0.51,1.68,0.46,32.46,23.57,0,0.25,7.97,0,30.09,1
    MBA_Helladic_Logkas:Log04,7.05,1.16,0.26,0,31.18,28.21,0,0.13,4.25,0.92,24.07,2.77

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