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Thread: The genomic history of the Aegean palatial civilizations.

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    3 members found this post helpful.

    The genomic history of the Aegean palatial civilizations.

    The Cycladic, the Minoan, and the Helladic (Mycenaean) cultures define the Bronze Age (BA) of Greece. Urbanism, complex social structures, craft and agricultural specialization, and the earliest forms of writing, characterize this iconic period. We sequenced six early to middle BA whole genomes, along with 11 mtDNA genomes, sampled from the three BA cultures of the Aegean Sea. The Early BA (EBA) genomes are homogeneous and derive most of their ancestry from Neolithic Aegeans, contrary to earlier hypotheses that the Neolithic-EBA cultural transition was due to massive population turn-over. EBA Aegeans were shaped by relatively small-scale migration from East of the Aegean, as evidenced by the Caucasus-related ancestry also detected in Anatolians. In contrast, Middle BA (MBA) individuals of northern Greece differ from EBA populations in showing ~50% Pontic-Caspian Steppe-related ancestry, dated at ca. 2,600-2,000 BCE. Such gene flow events during the MBA contributed towards shaping present-day Greek genomes.
    http://http://Studies : Browse : Seq...: NCBI/NLM/NIH

    Pretty surprising to find ~50% steppe ancestry in Greece (dated atca. 2,600-2,000 BC). That's a very high steppe admixture for Southern Euro standard. It’s a pity that these 2 steppe- rich admixed individuals are females, thus we don’t have Y-DNA. So, still no R1b or R1a from Ancient Greece. Anyway, It seems that we'll see relatively diverse results, from zero to considerable steppe admixture from Ancient Greece. That being said, it’s questionable that this kind of high steppe ancestry persisted to the Iron Age Greece. Besides, I always speculated based on Ancient Macedonian art, that Macedonian Greeks could turn out to be more Northern shifted than the Athenians or Spartans.

    Also,interesting:


    EBA Aegeans were shaped by relatively small-scale migration from East of the Aegean, as evidenced by the Caucasus-related ancestry also detected in Anatolians.



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    I don't have excess to anthrogenica

    But this what i see
    Wierd that there is no e-v13 a haplogroup🤔

    The genomic history of the Aegean palatial civilizations - https://trace.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/Trace...tudy=ERP121113
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....=1#post737492\

    Pta08; 2849-2621 BC; Petras; Greece; Minoan_EBA; G2a2b-L30>CTS574>CTS2488>P303>pre-L140 (PF3337+, L140-)

    Kou01; 2464-2349 BC; Koufonisi; Greece; Cycladic_EBA; J2a1a-L26>Z6064>Z6055>Z6057>Y7013>Y7010>Y13128>Z36834

    Mik15; 2890-2764 BC; Manika; Greece; Helladic_EBA; (female)

    Log04; 2007-1915 BC; Logkas; Greece; Helladic_MBA; (female)

    Log02; 1924-1831 BC; Logkas; Greece; Helladic_MBA; (female)

    Kou03; 2832-2578 BC; Koufonisi; Greece; Cycladic_EBA; (female)
    phenotype:
    gracile- med

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    I don't have excess to anthrogenica
    But this what i see
    Wierd that there is no e-v13 a haplogroup������
    The genomic history of the Aegean palatial civilizations - https://trace.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/Trace...tudy=ERP121113
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....=1#post737492\
    Pta08; 2849-2621 BC; Petras; Greece; Minoan_EBA; G2a2b-L30>CTS574>CTS2488>P303>pre-L140 (PF3337+, L140-)
    Kou01; 2464-2349 BC; Koufonisi; Greece; Cycladic_EBA; J2a1a-L26>Z6064>Z6055>Z6057>Y7013>Y7010>Y13128>Z36834
    Mik15; 2890-2764 BC; Manika; Greece; Helladic_EBA; (female)
    Log04; 2007-1915 BC; Logkas; Greece; Helladic_MBA; (female)
    Log02; 1924-1831 BC; Logkas; Greece; Helladic_MBA; (female)
    Kou03; 2832-2578 BC; Koufonisi; Greece; Cycladic_EBA; (female)


    A user from anthrogenica has ran the samples.


    52.6TUR_Barcin_N
    45.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    1.6TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
    0.2 WHG

    Target:Helladic_MBA:Log02
    Distance: 2.7289% / 0.02728924
    48.6TUR_Barcin_N
    33.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    15.8TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
    2.2 WHG
    0.4 MAR_EN

    Target:Helladic_EBA:Mik15
    Distance: 2.3962% / 0.02396191
    53.8TUR_Barcin_N
    38.2 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
    6.2Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    1.2 MAR_EN
    0.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N

    Target:Cycladic_EBA:Kou03
    Distance: 1.8214% / 0.01821442
    75.2TUR_Barcin_N
    11.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    9.4 GEO_CHG
    4.2Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    0.2 MAR_EN



    The Helladic_MBA samples don't have any CHG/Iran_N which means that they‘re very likely recent arrivals to Greece.




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    The Early BA (EBA) genomes are homogeneous and derive most of their ancestry from Neolithic Aegeans.

    What Neolithic Aegean ancestry do we have?
    Is it the same as Minoan?

    So steppe seems to have been trickling in while Mycenean was develloping?
    Steppe may have come from the Carpathian, not directly from the steppe.



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    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    A user from anthrogenica has ran the samples.


    52.6TUR_Barcin_N
    45.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    1.6TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
    0.2 WHG

    Target:Helladic_MBA:Log02
    Distance: 2.7289% / 0.02728924
    48.6TUR_Barcin_N
    33.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    15.8TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
    2.2 WHG
    0.4 MAR_EN

    Target:Helladic_EBA:Mik15
    Distance: 2.3962% / 0.02396191
    53.8TUR_Barcin_N
    38.2 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
    6.2Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    1.2 MAR_EN
    0.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N

    Target:Cycladic_EBA:Kou03
    Distance: 1.8214% / 0.01821442
    75.2TUR_Barcin_N
    11.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    9.4 GEO_CHG
    4.2Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    0.2 MAR_EN



    The Helladic_MBA samples don't have any CHG/Iran_N which means that they‘re very likely recent arrivals to Greece.




    Interesting
    I always thought the slavs are responsible
    For the spread and occurence of steppe ancestery in north greece...
    This paper show it was already present in middle bronze age north greece and in huge %

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    Am I not awake yet?

    Looks to me like two have tiny amounts of steppe, one has 33% and one 46%, about the amount in, say, the modern English?

    So, not yet a homogenized society it seems to me.

    Where is a link to the actual paper, for goodness' sakes?

    Is the first sample male? What number and date?

    If they're right, who was moving around in the Middle Bronze Age?


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    So, they had arrived in "Northern" Greece around 2600-2000 BC.

    Where in northern Greece? How far north?

    When did they arrive in the Peleponnese?

    Are the samples in the paper high class or low class?

    Was there after all a Doric invasion?

    Or, was the fall of the Mycenaeans a revolt of people like this some few hundreds of years later? Or vice versa?

    Without the paper it's impossible to make informed conclusions.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    I don't know. I do know that there is a youtube video of one of her presentations at a conference.

    If it is the same one, it's from 2015, same year as Haak et al came out, yet it's never been published. I can't find the actual written material anywhere on the internet. Did these researchers reveal their work to someone? If they didn't there's some fraud involved here. Did the researchers discover there was something wrong with the data, i.e. contamination? Was their analysis faulty. If not, why wouldn't they publish it?

    Before taking this seriously, someone should put the questions to these researchers.

    The entire paper, including methodology, should also be released.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I don't know. I do know that there is a youtube video of one of her presentations at a conference.

    If it is the same one, it's from 2015, same year as Haak et al came out, yet it's never been published. I can't find the actual written material anywhere on the internet. Did these researchers reveal their work to someone? If they didn't there's some fraud involved here. Did the researchers discover there was something wrong with the data, i.e. contamination? Was their analysis faulty. If not, why wouldn't they publish it?

    Before taking this seriously, someone should put the questions to these researchers.

    The entire paper, including methodology, should also be released.
    Indeed, I want to see the official source of where they are obtaining these samples, like ENA. Not a pseudonymous person's dropbox.
    Last edited by Jovialis; 17-01-21 at 01:04.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    Interesting
    I always thought the slavs are responsible
    For the spread and occurence of steppe ancestery in north greece...
    This paper show it was already present in middle bronze age north greece and in huge %
    Well, the Slavic migration had definitely a genetic impact on Greece. The question is rather whether the Slavic people who entered Greece, were more Ukraine or Polish-like or more Serbian- or Bulgarian-like. IMHO, the latter seems more likely. When going by this paper, it appears that the Slavic migration might have brought just some additional Steppe admixture into Greece. So, perhaps Greeks have different layers of steppe admixture, obtained from distinct sources.

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    The relatively heavy steppe people have no connection to the Mycenaean samples from Lazaridis' paper, at least according to MTA.





    Coordinates in Dodecad Globe 13:

    Code:
    Kou01,0.21,0.04,1.72,0.12,18.85,0.26,50.11,0.15,0,23.54,5.01,0,0
    Kou03,0.09,0,2.49,0,17.26,0,46.34,0.57,0,28.2,5.06,0,0
    Log02,0.35,0.44,1.12,0.33,11.9,0,40.29,0.55,0.21,15.91,28.9,0,0
    Log04,0.45,1.95,3.14,0,7.25,0,35.42,0.29,0.34,16.63,34.51,0,0
    Mik15,0.16,0,3.05,0.29,19.89,0.45,52.96,0,0,15.23,7.96,0,0.02
    Pta08,0,0,2.4,0.11,20.85,0.57,50,0.38,0,21.18,4.51,0,0

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post



    The relatively heavy steppe people have no connection to the Mycenaean samples from Lazaridis' paper, at least according to MTA.





    Coordinates in Dodecad Globe 13:

    Code:
    Kou01,0.21,0.04,1.72,0.12,18.85,0.26,50.11,0.15,0,23.54,5.01,0,0
    Kou03,0.09,0,2.49,0,17.26,0,46.34,0.57,0,28.2,5.06,0,0
    Log02,0.35,0.44,1.12,0.33,11.9,0,40.29,0.55,0.21,15.91,28.9,0,0
    Log04,0.45,1.95,3.14,0,7.25,0,35.42,0.29,0.34,16.63,34.51,0,0
    Mik15,0.16,0,3.05,0.29,19.89,0.45,52.96,0,0,15.23,7.96,0,0.02
    Pta08,0,0,2.4,0.11,20.85,0.57,50,0.38,0,21.18,4.51,0,0
    I think these two samples are very interesting, and are insightful for understanding the people who lived on the periphery of Mycenaean civilization. However, the above suggests they did not go on to influence Mycenaean genetics.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Log04,

    Illyrians?

    fwiw, look at the connection with Foggia.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Log04,

    Illyrians?

    fwiw, look at the connection with Foggia.


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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Correction, Log02 does have some small connections to the Lazaridis et al. 2017 paper. She is the one that clusters with Tuscans. Though I would say, this sample also looks a lot more "Illyrian" to me. Once again, strong connections to Italy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    nice

    lukas uploaded them to k13 ancient tool in vahaduo

    Greece_MBA_Log02,25.42,12.25,24.46,9.54,23.63,2.29 ,0,0,0,1,1.21,0,0.18
    Greece_MBA_Log04,27.02,17.23,18.01,13.6,18.4,1.55, 0.08,0.5,0.83,2.35,0.3,0,0.13
    Greece_MBA_Mik15,14.45,0,36.91,0.55,41.8,6.29,0,0, 0,0,0,0,0
    Greece_EBA_Pta08,9.49,0,35.59,5.30,43.72,5.89,0,0, 0,0,0,0,0
    EBA:Greece_EBA_Kou01,9.32,0,34.63,7.01,45.16,3.88, 0,0,0,0,0,0,0
    EBA:Greece_EBA_Kou03,11.63,0,30.31,15.51,38.16,3.4 7,0,0,0,0,0.6,0,0.31


    The Greek samples sorted by read count: ( i have another computer which give me access to anthrogenica they can't stop me )

    219,847,620 Mik15
    216,468,743 Log02
    211,500,916 Log04
    194,405,131 Pta08
    138,884,690 Kou03
    108,651,773 Kou01
    Last edited by kingjohn; 17-01-21 at 16:34.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    I think I'm missing the outlier from the Lazaridis paper, the one from a later period in Crete to whom I was pretty close.

    Distance to: Angela
    7.68359942 Greece_MBA_Log02
    12.92423692 Greece_MBA_Log04
    18.18077556 I9033_Mycenaean_1352_bc_M_
    20.45531960 I9041_Greece_Mycenaean_3250_ybp
    28.14540815 I9010_Mycenaean_1351_bc_
    28.39983451 EBA:Greece_EBA_Kou03
    28.62245447 I9005_Greece_Minoan_Lassithi_4000_ybp
    29.34865244 I9006_Greece_Mycenaean_3287_ybp
    32.09405085 Greece_MBA_Mik15
    34.68130044 Greece_EBA_Pta08
    35.10495549 EBA:Greece_EBA_Kou01

    I don't know where Logkas is, but it must have been in the periphery of the Mycenaean world, as you said, Jovialis. The distance I get to Log2 is similar to my distance to the samples from Dalmatia. If Logkas is from near there it would make perfect sense. Indeed, could they be Illyrian like?

    I don't know if they went south and intermingled a bit; we would need more samples from actual Mycenaeans in the Mycenaean Era settlements to the south and east to know that for sure. I don't think it's necessarily the case, however.

    This reminds me of what happened with the Rome paper. Some people rush around making conclusions with perhaps no access to the precise location, the burial context, the methodology etc.

    Thank you for all this, Jovialis. Exemplary work.

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    someone uploaded him to gedmatch
    Log02 in Eurogenes K13
    ZK5342256

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 North_Atlantic 25.42
    2 West_Med 24.46
    3 East_Med 23.63
    4 Baltic 12.25
    5 West_Asian 9.54
    6 Red_Sea 2.29
    7 Oceanian 1.21
    8 Amerindian 1
    9 Sub-Saharan 0.18

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Tuscan 3.68
    2 North_Italian 7.17

    3 West_Sicilian 8.01
    4 Greek_Thessaly 8.14
    5 Italian_Abruzzo 8.55
    6 Central_Greek 11.05
    7 East_Sicilian 11.74
    8 Bulgarian 13.02
    9 South_Italian 13.1
    10 Romanian 13.81
    11 Ashkenazi 14.7
    12 Spanish_Extremadura 15.58
    13 Portuguese 15.61
    14 Spanish_Andalucia 16.3
    15 Spanish_Murcia 16.68
    16 Spanish_Valencia 16.89
    17 Spanish_Galicia 16.92
    18 Serbian 17.06
    19 Spanish_Cataluna 17.56
    20 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 17.83

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 61.4% North_Italian + 38.6% Central_Greek @ 2.35

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    5 members found this post helpful.
    I ran the samples through the K13 Modern so there would be no squawking from other places.

    Distance to: Greece_MBA_Log02
    3.95887610 Tuscan
    8.18320842 North_Italian
    9.02556923 West_Sicilian
    9.20050542 Greek_Thessaly
    9.67008273 Italian_Abruzzo
    12.67926654 Central_Greek
    13.35816604 East_Sicilian
    14.66986367 Bulgarian
    15.02793066 South_Italian
    15.55129898 Romanian
    16.80972933 Ashkenazi
    17.95004457 Spanish_Extremadura
    18.02786454 Portuguese
    18.75250117 Spanish_Andalucia
    19.22330097 Spanish_Murcia
    19.26025182 Serbian
    19.50536080 Spanish_Valencia
    19.51763818 Spanish_Galicia
    20.30129060 Spanish_Cataluna
    20.56086088 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
    21.11848479 Italian_Jewish
    21.14110688 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
    21.51626594 Sephardic_Jewish
    21.53301883 Algerian_Jewish
    23.12442215 Spanish_Cantabria

    Log4
    Distance to: Greece_MBA_Log04
    8.35465738 Romanian
    9.15210905 Bulgarian
    11.49876080 Greek_Thessaly
    11.76738289 Serbian
    12.66054106 Tuscan
    12.79527647 North_Italian
    14.23441955 Italian_Abruzzo
    16.80767384 West_Sicilian
    17.33217240 Central_Greek
    18.76695500 East_Sicilian
    19.11081108 Moldavian
    19.34580833 Hungarian
    19.40008505 Portuguese
    19.79225354 French
    20.08691365 Spanish_Extremadura
    20.52343051 Spanish_Galicia
    20.62840517 Austrian
    20.92206491 Spanish_Cataluna
    21.09877011 West_German
    21.27530258 Spanish_Murcia
    21.36302179 South_Italian
    21.70000230 Spanish_Andalucia
    21.75738036 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
    21.82477262 Spanish_Valencia
    22.01043389 Croatian

    Well, well, here's a surprise, this sample is closest to admixed Jews (i.e. those which mixed with Europeans), but then Mycenaeans were pretty close to them as well.
    Distance to: Greece_MBA_Mik15
    18.52527193 Algerian_Jewish
    19.47616492 Italian_Jewish
    22.04608582 Sephardic_Jewish
    22.59917919 Tunisian_Jewish
    22.62203572 Libyan_Jewish
    23.48751370 South_Italian
    24.23913159 West_Sicilian
    24.41921375 Ashkenazi
    25.45199992 Tunisian
    25.51561875 East_Sicilian
    26.79552761 Algerian
    26.84176969 Sardinian
    27.07234382 Central_Greek
    27.57608565 Mozabite_Berber
    27.78684401 Cyprian
    27.93904973 Moroccan
    28.34711096 Tuscan
    28.77691262 Italian_Abruzzo
    30.96489141 Greek_Thessaly
    31.25588905 Samaritan
    33.31969238 Lebanese_Christian
    33.32246239 North_Italian
    34.06860725 Egyptian
    34.22980865 Lebanese_Muslim
    34.40983580 Palestinian
    Distance to: Greece_MBA_Mik15
    18.52527193 Algerian_Jewish
    19.47616492 Italian_Jewish
    22.04608582 Sephardic_Jewish
    22.59917919 Tunisian_Jewish
    22.62203572 Libyan_Jewish
    23.48751370 South_Italian
    24.23913159 West_Sicilian
    24.41921375 Ashkenazi
    25.45199992 Tunisian
    25.51561875 East_Sicilian
    26.79552761 Algerian
    26.84176969 Sardinian
    27.07234382 Central_Greek
    27.57608565 Mozabite_Berber
    27.78684401 Cyprian
    27.93904973 Moroccan
    28.34711096 Tuscan
    28.77691262 Italian_Abruzzo
    30.96489141 Greek_Thessaly
    31.25588905 Samaritan
    33.31969238 Lebanese_Christian
    33.32246239 North_Italian
    34.06860725 Egyptian
    34.22980865 Lebanese_Muslim
    34.40983580 Palestinian

    The first three were Middle Bronze Age. Now for the Early Bronze Age. Much the same for the first one...
    Distance to: Greece_EBA_Pta08
    16.32743091 Algerian_Jewish
    17.79478294 Italian_Jewish
    19.81873861 Tunisian_Jewish
    19.92590776 Libyan_Jewish
    20.18929915 Sephardic_Jewish
    22.12526158 South_Italian
    22.56049202 Cyprian
    23.31849266 Ashkenazi
    24.53357903 East_Sicilian
    24.91526440 West_Sicilian
    25.69987549 Tunisian
    25.91040525 Samaritan
    25.97189442 Central_Greek
    27.59686214 Algerian
    27.73495628 Lebanese_Christian
    28.45815876 Mozabite_Berber
    28.80092707 Moroccan
    28.81681107 Italian_Abruzzo
    29.38614469 Lebanese_Muslim
    30.18337125 Palestinian
    30.34125245 Syrian
    30.55785987 Tuscan
    30.63102349 Lebanese_Druze
    31.10842008 Jordanian
    31.11900705 Greek_Thessaly

    Same again...
    Distance to: EBA:Greece_EBA_Kou01
    16.19176643 Algerian_Jewish
    17.37221345 Italian_Jewish
    19.43704453 Tunisian_Jewish
    19.70652937 Libyan_Jewish
    19.86622007 Sephardic_Jewish
    21.27427320 Cyprian
    21.80122703 South_Italian
    23.07222139 Ashkenazi
    24.47097464 East_Sicilian
    24.97725766 Samaritan
    25.12103302 West_Sicilian
    25.75772894 Central_Greek
    26.47167354 Lebanese_Christian
    27.11146805 Tunisian
    28.29519040 Lebanese_Muslim
    28.72263045 Italian_Abruzzo
    29.05404103 Lebanese_Druze
    29.13735232 Algerian
    29.56914946 Palestinian
    29.63970142 Syrian
    30.08778324 Mozabite_Berber
    30.45786105 Jordanian
    30.62695382 Moroccan
    31.04383192 Tuscan
    31.22407565 Greek_Thessaly

    And once more...
    Distance to: EBA:Greece_EBA_Kou03
    11.04838450 Algerian_Jewish
    12.02086103 Italian_Jewish
    12.72752922 South_Italian
    12.99317513 Sephardic_Jewish
    14.37239020 Cyprian
    14.59525265 Tunisian_Jewish
    15.21940866 Libyan_Jewish
    16.36783736 East_Sicilian
    17.17588135 Central_Greek
    17.55569708 Ashkenazi
    17.96173711 West_Sicilian
    20.08987805 Italian_Abruzzo
    21.06931655 Lebanese_Muslim
    21.61782366 Samaritan
    22.77767767 Lebanese_Christian
    22.87203970 Syrian
    24.39007995 Greek_Thessaly
    24.76770074 Lebanese_Druze
    24.78269154 Tuscan
    25.58807926 Jordanian
    25.73555323 Palestinian
    26.03208021 Tunisian
    27.06813994 Turkish
    27.66145694 Algerian
    28.11674768 Assyrian

    So, even in the Middle Bronze, where we see the increased steppe is from a settlement on the periphery of the Mycenaean world, the other Middle Bronze Age settlements were still like the much later Mycenaean samples we have.

    Now, it could be that there are actual Mycenaean samples which have more steppe, brought by these peripheral people. We don't know. However, if there weren't a lot of them, how much change could they have wrought? We just don't know and won't know until we have more samples.

    What we do know, however, is when Bronze Age Greece flourished, and when it got temporarily knocked down.

    "The Early Bronze Age (3200-2000 B.C.) is characterised by the spread of metal, the use of which is already known in the Final Neolithic or Chalcolithic period. The Northeastern Aegean, the Cyclades and Mainland Greece are home to specific cultural groups during this period.Initially the way of life in all aspects continues along the lines of its Neolithic predecessor. The general development of the second phase of the period (2700-2200 B.C.) leads to the creation of organised settlements, the construction of monumental buildings and a controlled economy with the accumulation of goods and the use of seals. This is the time of the first urban development, communication between settlements and commerce by sea with the shipping of metal objects, Melian obsidian and fine pottery throughout the Aegean.
    In the Northeastern Aegean, Poliochni in Lemnos and Troy in Asia Minor become prominent as strong proto-urban centres.To this same period belong the graves of Leukas in the Ionian Sea, with their rich funerary equipment. In Mainland Greece, Boeotian Orchomenos beside the Kopais lake, Lerna in the Argolid and Aegina are among the important centres of this time -for the well-known Neolithic sites such as Sesklo and Lianokladi we have less evidence. In Attica there are many small but important settlements such as Raphina, Askitario and Ag. Kosmas. The imported objects found in these settlements provide evidence of their habitual communication with the Cyclades.
    The development observable during the second phase of the Early Bronze Age comes to an end during the third and last phase of the Period (2200-2000 B.C.). Evident are destructions, the abandonment of settlements and a general disorganisation that has been traditionally associated with the incursion of new populations. The Middle Bronze Age (2000-1600 B.C.) is characterised initially by an economic and cultural decline,as can be seen in the poor remains of the settlements and in the poverty of the burials. It is a time of re establishment and by the middle of the period, development is evident. The growth in population and consequent necessity of further cultivation of the fertile land leads to the appearance of new settlements in opportune places. The most important of these have bronze workshops. Graves are now supplied with bronze weapons and jewellery of gold, bronze and semi-precious stones, in addition to pottery. The pottery of the period, for the most part wheel-made, comprises two main categories Minyan ware and Matt Painted.

    Toward the end of the Middle Bronze Age, the richly provided tombs of Mainland Greece bespeak the rise of anumber of ruling groups. The influence of the advanced culture of Minoan Crete, the importation of luxurious and beautifully worked vessels and weapons, the spread of new ideas and techniques is to bring about basic changes that are observable in all levels of life and art. The end of the Middle Helladic Period is marked by social change rather than by catastrophe. It is the time of the Shaft Graves at Mycenae and the new warrior aristocracy which introduces us to the Mycenaean period. "

    The Log samples are dated to 2000 to 1800 BC.

  21. #21
    Regular Member kingjohn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I ran the samples through the K13 Modern so there would be no squawking from other places.

    Distance to: Greece_MBA_Log02
    3.95887610 Tuscan
    8.18320842 North_Italian
    9.02556923 West_Sicilian
    9.20050542 Greek_Thessaly
    9.67008273 Italian_Abruzzo
    12.67926654 Central_Greek
    13.35816604 East_Sicilian
    14.66986367 Bulgarian
    15.02793066 South_Italian
    15.55129898 Romanian
    16.80972933 Ashkenazi
    17.95004457 Spanish_Extremadura
    18.02786454 Portuguese
    18.75250117 Spanish_Andalucia
    19.22330097 Spanish_Murcia
    19.26025182 Serbian
    19.50536080 Spanish_Valencia
    19.51763818 Spanish_Galicia
    20.30129060 Spanish_Cataluna
    20.56086088 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
    21.11848479 Italian_Jewish
    21.14110688 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
    21.51626594 Sephardic_Jewish
    21.53301883 Algerian_Jewish
    23.12442215 Spanish_Cantabria

    Log4
    Distance to: Greece_MBA_Log04
    8.35465738 Romanian
    9.15210905 Bulgarian
    11.49876080 Greek_Thessaly
    11.76738289 Serbian
    12.66054106 Tuscan
    12.79527647 North_Italian
    14.23441955 Italian_Abruzzo
    16.80767384 West_Sicilian
    17.33217240 Central_Greek
    18.76695500 East_Sicilian
    19.11081108 Moldavian
    19.34580833 Hungarian
    19.40008505 Portuguese
    19.79225354 French
    20.08691365 Spanish_Extremadura
    20.52343051 Spanish_Galicia
    20.62840517 Austrian
    20.92206491 Spanish_Cataluna
    21.09877011 West_German
    21.27530258 Spanish_Murcia
    21.36302179 South_Italian
    21.70000230 Spanish_Andalucia
    21.75738036 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
    21.82477262 Spanish_Valencia
    22.01043389 Croatian

    Well, well, here's a surprise, this sample is closest to admixed Jews (i.e. those which mixed with Europeans), but then Mycenaeans were pretty close to them as well.
    Distance to: Greece_MBA_Mik15
    18.52527193 Algerian_Jewish
    19.47616492 Italian_Jewish
    22.04608582 Sephardic_Jewish
    22.59917919 Tunisian_Jewish
    22.62203572 Libyan_Jewish
    23.48751370 South_Italian
    24.23913159 West_Sicilian
    24.41921375 Ashkenazi
    25.45199992 Tunisian
    25.51561875 East_Sicilian
    26.79552761 Algerian
    26.84176969 Sardinian
    27.07234382 Central_Greek
    27.57608565 Mozabite_Berber
    27.78684401 Cyprian
    27.93904973 Moroccan
    28.34711096 Tuscan
    28.77691262 Italian_Abruzzo
    30.96489141 Greek_Thessaly
    31.25588905 Samaritan
    33.31969238 Lebanese_Christian
    33.32246239 North_Italian
    34.06860725 Egyptian
    34.22980865 Lebanese_Muslim
    34.40983580 Palestinian
    Distance to: Greece_MBA_Mik15
    18.52527193 Algerian_Jewish
    19.47616492 Italian_Jewish
    22.04608582 Sephardic_Jewish
    22.59917919 Tunisian_Jewish
    22.62203572 Libyan_Jewish
    23.48751370 South_Italian
    24.23913159 West_Sicilian
    24.41921375 Ashkenazi
    25.45199992 Tunisian
    25.51561875 East_Sicilian
    26.79552761 Algerian
    26.84176969 Sardinian
    27.07234382 Central_Greek
    27.57608565 Mozabite_Berber
    27.78684401 Cyprian
    27.93904973 Moroccan
    28.34711096 Tuscan
    28.77691262 Italian_Abruzzo
    30.96489141 Greek_Thessaly
    31.25588905 Samaritan
    33.31969238 Lebanese_Christian
    33.32246239 North_Italian
    34.06860725 Egyptian
    34.22980865 Lebanese_Muslim
    34.40983580 Palestinian

    The first three were Middle Bronze Age. Now for the Early Bronze Age. Much the same for the first one...
    Distance to: Greece_EBA_Pta08
    16.32743091 Algerian_Jewish
    17.79478294 Italian_Jewish
    19.81873861 Tunisian_Jewish
    19.92590776 Libyan_Jewish
    20.18929915 Sephardic_Jewish
    22.12526158 South_Italian
    22.56049202 Cyprian
    23.31849266 Ashkenazi
    24.53357903 East_Sicilian
    24.91526440 West_Sicilian
    25.69987549 Tunisian
    25.91040525 Samaritan
    25.97189442 Central_Greek
    27.59686214 Algerian
    27.73495628 Lebanese_Christian
    28.45815876 Mozabite_Berber
    28.80092707 Moroccan
    28.81681107 Italian_Abruzzo
    29.38614469 Lebanese_Muslim
    30.18337125 Palestinian
    30.34125245 Syrian
    30.55785987 Tuscan
    30.63102349 Lebanese_Druze
    31.10842008 Jordanian
    31.11900705 Greek_Thessaly

    Same again...
    Distance to: EBA:Greece_EBA_Kou01
    16.19176643 Algerian_Jewish
    17.37221345 Italian_Jewish
    19.43704453 Tunisian_Jewish
    19.70652937 Libyan_Jewish
    19.86622007 Sephardic_Jewish
    21.27427320 Cyprian
    21.80122703 South_Italian
    23.07222139 Ashkenazi
    24.47097464 East_Sicilian
    24.97725766 Samaritan
    25.12103302 West_Sicilian
    25.75772894 Central_Greek
    26.47167354 Lebanese_Christian
    27.11146805 Tunisian
    28.29519040 Lebanese_Muslim
    28.72263045 Italian_Abruzzo
    29.05404103 Lebanese_Druze
    29.13735232 Algerian
    29.56914946 Palestinian
    29.63970142 Syrian
    30.08778324 Mozabite_Berber
    30.45786105 Jordanian
    30.62695382 Moroccan
    31.04383192 Tuscan
    31.22407565 Greek_Thessaly

    And once more...
    Distance to: EBA:Greece_EBA_Kou03
    11.04838450 Algerian_Jewish
    12.02086103 Italian_Jewish
    12.72752922 South_Italian
    12.99317513 Sephardic_Jewish
    14.37239020 Cyprian
    14.59525265 Tunisian_Jewish
    15.21940866 Libyan_Jewish
    16.36783736 East_Sicilian
    17.17588135 Central_Greek
    17.55569708 Ashkenazi
    17.96173711 West_Sicilian
    20.08987805 Italian_Abruzzo
    21.06931655 Lebanese_Muslim
    21.61782366 Samaritan
    22.77767767 Lebanese_Christian
    22.87203970 Syrian
    24.39007995 Greek_Thessaly
    24.76770074 Lebanese_Druze
    24.78269154 Tuscan
    25.58807926 Jordanian
    25.73555323 Palestinian
    26.03208021 Tunisian
    27.06813994 Turkish
    27.66145694 Algerian
    28.11674768 Assyrian

    So, even in the Middle Bronze, where we see the increased steppe is from a settlement on the periphery of the Mycenaean world, the other Middle Bronze Age settlements were still like the much later Mycenaean samples we have.

    Now, it could be that there are actual Mycenaean samples which have more steppe, brought by these peripheral people. We don't know. However, if there weren't a lot of them, how much change could they have wrought? We just don't know and won't know until we have more samples.

    What we do know, however, is when Bronze Age Greece flourished, and when it got temporarily knocked down.

    "The Early Bronze Age (3200-2000 B.C.) is characterised by the spread of metal, the use of which is already known in the Final Neolithic or Chalcolithic period. The Northeastern Aegean, the Cyclades and Mainland Greece are home to specific cultural groups during this period.Initially the way of life in all aspects continues along the lines of its Neolithic predecessor. The general development of the second phase of the period (2700-2200 B.C.) leads to the creation of organised settlements, the construction of monumental buildings and a controlled economy with the accumulation of goods and the use of seals. This is the time of the first urban development, communication between settlements and commerce by sea with the shipping of metal objects, Melian obsidian and fine pottery throughout the Aegean.
    In the Northeastern Aegean, Poliochni in Lemnos and Troy in Asia Minor become prominent as strong proto-urban centres.To this same period belong the graves of Leukas in the Ionian Sea, with their rich funerary equipment. In Mainland Greece, Boeotian Orchomenos beside the Kopais lake, Lerna in the Argolid and Aegina are among the important centres of this time -for the well-known Neolithic sites such as Sesklo and Lianokladi we have less evidence. In Attica there are many small but important settlements such as Raphina, Askitario and Ag. Kosmas. The imported objects found in these settlements provide evidence of their habitual communication with the Cyclades.
    The development observable during the second phase of the Early Bronze Age comes to an end during the third and last phase of the Period (2200-2000 B.C.). Evident are destructions, the abandonment of settlements and a general disorganisation that has been traditionally associated with the incursion of new populations. The Middle Bronze Age (2000-1600 B.C.) is characterised initially by an economic and cultural decline,as can be seen in the poor remains of the settlements and in the poverty of the burials. It is a time of re establishment and by the middle of the period, development is evident. The growth in population and consequent necessity of further cultivation of the fertile land leads to the appearance of new settlements in opportune places. The most important of these have bronze workshops. Graves are now supplied with bronze weapons and jewellery of gold, bronze and semi-precious stones, in addition to pottery. The pottery of the period, for the most part wheel-made, comprises two main categories Minyan ware and Matt Painted.

    Toward the end of the Middle Bronze Age, the richly provided tombs of Mainland Greece bespeak the rise of anumber of ruling groups. The influence of the advanced culture of Minoan Crete, the importation of luxurious and beautifully worked vessels and weapons, the spread of new ideas and techniques is to bring about basic changes that are observable in all levels of life and art. The end of the Middle Helladic Period is marked by social change rather than by catastrophe. It is the time of the Shaft Graves at Mycenae and the new warrior aristocracy which introduces us to the Mycenaean period. "

    The Log samples are dated to 2000 to 1800 BC.

    yes
    Greece_EBA_Pta08 and Greece_MBA_Mik15
    cluster with western jews specificly algerian jews

    algerian jews have higher west med element in k13 than other west jewish groups ( aschenazi) thats why they fit more

  22. #22
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    yes
    Greece_EBA_Pta08 and Greece_MBA_Mik15
    cluster with western jews specificly algerian jews

    algerian jews have higher west med element in k13 than other west jewish groups ( aschenazi) thats why they fit more
    I also think that North African and Italian Jews have practiced the strictest endogamy of any Jewish groups of which I'm aware.

  23. #23
    Regular Member kingjohn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I also think that North African and Italian Jews have practiced the strictest endogamy of any Jewish groups of which I'm aware.

    yes
    and anyway this result and overlapp is not something
    nordicist would like
    but we are not in battle here of med- nordic

  24. #24
    Moderator Pax Augusta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shahmiri View Post
    Lemnian and some other non-Indo-European languages were spoken in northern Greece as late as Iron Age.
    There is no evidence Lemnian was spoken in northern Greece. Apart from the handful of inscriptions found in Lemnos, this language is not attested anywhere else.

  25. #25
    Regular Member Stuvanè's Avatar
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    5 members found this post helpful.
    Using Dodecad Global k13, Log02 is my best proxy


    Distance to: Dodecad_Glob_13Stuvanè
    4.04188075 Log02
    4.08461749 I12221:I12221
    4.34099067 Iron_Age_Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro_:R1
    5.09472276 Late_Antiquity_Mausole_di_Augusto_:R33
    5.18898834 I6491:I6491
    5.19982692 Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna_:R55
    5.21557284 scy300:scy300
    5.21999042 scy305:scy305
    5.62549553 scy192:scy192
    5.67967429 scy197:scy197
    6.18153703 Croatia_Vucedol_:I3499
    6.45676390 Croatia_LBA_:I3313
    6.72580850 Croatia_EMBA_:I4331
    7.03241068 _Croatia_EMBA_:I4332
    7.23624903 Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi_:R105
    7.48278691 Late_Antiquity_Celio_:R36
    7.69515432 Imperial_Era_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis_:R111
    7.69551818 I3574:I3574
    7.72903616 Medieval_Era_Cancelleria_:R1285
    7.79855756 Medieval_Era_Cancelleria_:R1283
    8.04805567 Log04
    8.35907890 Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia_:R120
    8.41250260 I8475:I8475
    8.59768574 Medieval_Era_Cancelleria_:R1287
    8.63588444 Iron_Age_Civitavecchia_:R474


    With Eurogenes k13 Log02 is in 5th position

    Distance to: Eurogenesk13Stuvanè
    1.74533664 SZ36_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1442_ybp
    3.14240354 R1_Abruzzo_Teramo_Late_Bronze_Age_Italy
    3.42537589 SZ31_Longobard_M_T1a1a_PF5620_U4c2a_60th_century
    5.09575313 SZ37_Hungary_Langobard_1447_ybp
    5.29883950 Greece_MBA_Log02
    5.57403803 R55_Lazio_Rome_Late_Medieval_Italy
    5.93517481 CL36_longobard_north_italy
    6.23759569 R33_Lazio_Rome_Early_Medieval_Italy
    6.27857468 SZ43_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1431_ybp
    6.71080472 scy192_SG_Moldova_Scythian_SG
    6.75707777 NW54_Germany_Early_Medieval.SG_1491_ybp
    6.89536801 SZ32_Hungary_Langobard_1442_ybp
    6.95242404 STR535_Germany_Early_Medieval.SG_1491_ybp
    6.96397875 SZ1_Hungary_BA.SG_3950_ybp
    7.07966807 SZ1.SG_longobard_hungary
    7.11709913 R36_Lazio_Rome_Italy_Late_Antiquity
    7.43295365 I7424_morisco_
    7.68773048 R105_Lazio_Rome_Italy_Late_Antiquity
    7.80582475 I4331_Croatia_MBA_3526_ybp
    8.39662432 Greece_MBA_Log04
    8.65786348 I7043_Hungary_BA_4000_ybp
    8.95337367 I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp
    9.20757297 R970_Lazio_Rome_Renaissance_Italy
    9.32214568 R1287_Lazio_Rome_Medieval_Italy
    9.32721287 CL23_longobard_north_italy

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