The genomic history of the Aegean palatial civilizations.

[real expert]

The Cycladic, the Minoan, and the Helladic (Mycenaean) cultures define the Bronze Age (BA) of Greece. Urbanism, complex social structures, craft and agricultural specialization, and the earliest forms of writing, characterize this iconic period. We sequenced six early to middle BA whole genomes, along with 11 mtDNA genomes, sampled from the three BA cultures of the Aegean Sea. The Early BA (EBA) genomes are homogeneous and derive most of their ancestry from Neolithic Aegeans, contrary to earlier hypotheses that the Neolithic-EBA cultural transition was due to massive population turn-over. EBA Aegeans were shaped by relatively small-scale migration from East of the Aegean, as evidenced by the Caucasus-related ancestry also detected in Anatolians. In contrast, Middle BA (MBA) individuals of northern Greece differ from EBA populations in showing ~50% Pontic-Caspian Steppe-related ancestry, dated at ca. 2,600-2,000 BCE. Such gene flow events during the MBA contributed towards shaping present-day Greek genomes.

http://http://Studies : Browse : Seq...: NCBI/NLM/NIH

Pretty surprising to find ~50% steppe ancestry in Greece (dated atca. 2,600-2,000 BC). That's a very high steppe admixture for Southern Euro standard. It’s a pity that these 2 steppe- rich admixed individuals are females, thus we don’t have Y-DNA. So, still no R1b or R1a from Ancient Greece. Anyway, It seems that we'll see relatively diverse results, from zero to considerable steppe admixture from Ancient Greece. That being said, it’s questionable that this kind of high steppe ancestry persisted to the Iron Age Greece. Besides, I always speculated based on Ancient Macedonian art, that Macedonian Greeks could turn out to be more Northern shifted than the Athenians or Spartans.

Also,interesting:

EBA Aegeans were shaped by relatively small-scale migration from East of the Aegean, as evidenced by the Caucasus-related ancestry also detected in Anatolians.

[kingjohn]

I don't have excess to anthrogenica

But this what i see
Wierd that there is no e-v13 a haplogroup🤔

The genomic history of the Aegean palatial civilizations - https://trace.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/Trace...tudy=ERP121113
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....=1#post737492\

Pta08; 2849-2621 BC; Petras; Greece; Minoan_EBA; G2a2b-L30>CTS574>CTS2488>P303>pre-L140 (PF3337+, L140-)

Kou01; 2464-2349 BC; Koufonisi; Greece; Cycladic_EBA; J2a1a-L26>Z6064>Z6055>Z6057>Y7013>Y7010>Y13128>Z36834

Mik15; 2890-2764 BC; Manika; Greece; Helladic_EBA; (female)

Log04; 2007-1915 BC; Logkas; Greece; Helladic_MBA; (female)

Log02; 1924-1831 BC; Logkas; Greece; Helladic_MBA; (female)

Kou03; 2832-2578 BC; Koufonisi; Greece; Cycladic_EBA; (female)

[real expert]

I don't have excess to anthrogenica
But this what i see
Wierd that there is no e-v13 a haplogroup������
The genomic history of the Aegean palatial civilizations - https://trace.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/Trace...tudy=ERP121113
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....=1#post737492\
Pta08; 2849-2621 BC; Petras; Greece; Minoan_EBA; G2a2b-L30>CTS574>CTS2488>P303>pre-L140 (PF3337+, L140-)
Kou01; 2464-2349 BC; Koufonisi; Greece; Cycladic_EBA; J2a1a-L26>Z6064>Z6055>Z6057>Y7013>Y7010>Y13128>Z36834
Mik15; 2890-2764 BC; Manika; Greece; Helladic_EBA; (female)
Log04; 2007-1915 BC; Logkas; Greece; Helladic_MBA; (female)
Log02; 1924-1831 BC; Logkas; Greece; Helladic_MBA; (female)
Kou03; 2832-2578 BC; Koufonisi; Greece; Cycladic_EBA; (female)

A user from anthrogenica has ran the samples.

52.6TUR_Barcin_N
45.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
1.6TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
0.2 WHG

Target:Helladic_MBA:Log02
Distance: 2.7289% / 0.02728924
48.6TUR_Barcin_N
33.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
15.8TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
2.2 WHG
0.4 MAR_EN

Target:Helladic_EBA:Mik15
Distance: 2.3962% / 0.02396191
53.8TUR_Barcin_N
38.2 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
6.2Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
1.2 MAR_EN
0.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N

Target:Cycladic_EBA:Kou03
Distance: 1.8214% / 0.01821442
75.2TUR_Barcin_N
11.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
9.4 GEO_CHG
4.2Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
0.2 MAR_EN

The Helladic_MBA samples don't have any CHG/Iran_N which means that they‘re very likely recent arrivals to Greece.

[bicicleur 2]

The Early BA (EBA) genomes are homogeneous and derive most of their ancestry from Neolithic Aegeans.

What Neolithic Aegean ancestry do we have?
Is it the same as Minoan?

So steppe seems to have been trickling in while Mycenean was develloping?
Steppe may have come from the Carpathian, not directly from the steppe.

[kingjohn]

A user from anthrogenica has ran the samples.

52.6TUR_Barcin_N
45.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
1.6TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
0.2 WHG

Target:Helladic_MBA:Log02
Distance: 2.7289% / 0.02728924
48.6TUR_Barcin_N
33.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
15.8TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
2.2 WHG
0.4 MAR_EN

Target:Helladic_EBA:Mik15
Distance: 2.3962% / 0.02396191
53.8TUR_Barcin_N
38.2 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
6.2Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
1.2 MAR_EN
0.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N

Target:Cycladic_EBA:Kou03
Distance: 1.8214% / 0.01821442
75.2TUR_Barcin_N
11.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
9.4 GEO_CHG
4.2Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
0.2 MAR_EN

The Helladic_MBA samples don't have any CHG/Iran_N which means that they‘re very likely recent arrivals to Greece.

Interesting
I always thought the slavs are responsible
For the spread and occurence of steppe ancestery in north greece...
This paper show it was already present in middle bronze age north greece and in huge %

[Angela]

Am I not awake yet?

Looks to me like two have tiny amounts of steppe, one has 33% and one 46%, about the amount in, say, the modern English?

So, not yet a homogenized society it seems to me.

Where is a link to the actual paper, for goodness' sakes?

Is the first sample male? What number and date?

If they're right, who was moving around in the Middle Bronze Age?

[Angela]

So, they had arrived in "Northern" Greece around 2600-2000 BC.

Where in northern Greece? How far north?

When did they arrive in the Peleponnese?

Are the samples in the paper high class or low class?

Was there after all a Doric invasion?

Or, was the fall of the Mycenaeans a revolt of people like this some few hundreds of years later? Or vice versa?

Without the paper it's impossible to make informed conclusions.

[Jovialis]

Is it this study?

https://meeting.physanth.org/program...rspective.html

[Angela]

I don't know. I do know that there is a youtube video of one of her presentations at a conference.

If it is the same one, it's from 2015, same year as Haak et al came out, yet it's never been published. I can't find the actual written material anywhere on the internet. Did these researchers reveal their work to someone? If they didn't there's some fraud involved here. Did the researchers discover there was something wrong with the data, i.e. contamination? Was their analysis faulty. If not, why wouldn't they publish it?

Before taking this seriously, someone should put the questions to these researchers.

The entire paper, including methodology, should also be released.

[Jovialis]

I don't know. I do know that there is a youtube video of one of her presentations at a conference.

If it is the same one, it's from 2015, same year as Haak et al came out, yet it's never been published. I can't find the actual written material anywhere on the internet. Did these researchers reveal their work to someone? If they didn't there's some fraud involved here. Did the researchers discover there was something wrong with the data, i.e. contamination? Was their analysis faulty. If not, why wouldn't they publish it?

Before taking this seriously, someone should put the questions to these researchers.

The entire paper, including methodology, should also be released.

Indeed, I want to see the official source of where they are obtaining these samples, like ENA. Not a pseudonymous person's dropbox.

[real expert]

Interesting
I always thought the slavs are responsible
For the spread and occurence of steppe ancestery in north greece...
This paper show it was already present in middle bronze age north greece and in huge %

Well, the Slavic migration had definitely a genetic impact on Greece. The question is rather whether the Slavic people who entered Greece, were more Ukraine or Polish-like or more Serbian- or Bulgarian-like. IMHO, the latter seems more likely. When going by this paper, it appears that the Slavic migration might have brought just some additional Steppe admixture into Greece. So, perhaps Greeks have different layers of steppe admixture, obtained from distinct sources.

[Jovialis]

The relatively heavy steppe people have no connection to the Mycenaean samples from Lazaridis' paper, at least according to MTA.





Coordinates in Dodecad Globe 13:

Kou01,0.21,0.04,1.72,0.12,18.85,0.26,50.11,0.15,0,23.54,5.01,0,0
Kou03,0.09,0,2.49,0,17.26,0,46.34,0.57,0,28.2,5.06,0,0
Log02,0.35,0.44,1.12,0.33,11.9,0,40.29,0.55,0.21,15.91,28.9,0,0
Log04,0.45,1.95,3.14,0,7.25,0,35.42,0.29,0.34,16.63,34.51,0,0
Mik15,0.16,0,3.05,0.29,19.89,0.45,52.96,0,0,15.23,7.96,0,0.02
Pta08,0,0,2.4,0.11,20.85,0.57,50,0.38,0,21.18,4.51,0,0

[Jovialis]

The relatively heavy steppe people have no connection to the Mycenaean samples from Lazaridis' paper, at least according to MTA.





Coordinates in Dodecad Globe 13:

Kou01,0.21,0.04,1.72,0.12,18.85,0.26,50.11,0.15,0,23.54,5.01,0,0
Kou03,0.09,0,2.49,0,17.26,0,46.34,0.57,0,28.2,5.06,0,0
Log02,0.35,0.44,1.12,0.33,11.9,0,40.29,0.55,0.21,15.91,28.9,0,0
Log04,0.45,1.95,3.14,0,7.25,0,35.42,0.29,0.34,16.63,34.51,0,0
Mik15,0.16,0,3.05,0.29,19.89,0.45,52.96,0,0,15.23,7.96,0,0.02
Pta08,0,0,2.4,0.11,20.85,0.57,50,0.38,0,21.18,4.51,0,0

I think these two samples are very interesting, and are insightful for understanding the people who lived on the periphery of Mycenaean civilization. However, the above suggests they did not go on to influence Mycenaean genetics.

[Jovialis]

Log04,

Illyrians?

fwiw, look at the connection with Foggia.

[Jovialis]

Log04,

Illyrians?

fwiw, look at the connection with Foggia.

[Jovialis]

Correction, Log02 does have some small connections to the Lazaridis et al. 2017 paper. She is the one that clusters with Tuscans. Though I would say, this sample also looks a lot more "Illyrian" to me. Once again, strong connections to Italy.

[kingjohn]

nice

lukas uploaded them to k13 ancient tool in vahaduo

Greece_MBA_Log02,25.42,12.25,24.46,9.54,23.63,2.29 ,0,0,0,1,1.21,0,0.18
Greece_MBA_Log04,27.02,17.23,18.01,13.6,18.4,1.55, 0.08,0.5,0.83,2.35,0.3,0,0.13
Greece_MBA_Mik15,14.45,0,36.91,0.55,41.8,6.29,0,0, 0,0,0,0,0
Greece_EBA_Pta08,9.49,0,35.59,5.30,43.72,5.89,0,0, 0,0,0,0,0
EBA:Greece_EBA_Kou01,9.32,0,34.63,7.01,45.16,3.88, 0,0,0,0,0,0,0
EBA:Greece_EBA_Kou03,11.63,0,30.31,15.51,38.16,3.4 7,0,0,0,0,0.6,0,0.31


The Greek samples sorted by read count: ( i have another computer which give me access to anthrogenica they can't stop me )

219,847,620	Mik15
216,468,743	Log02
211,500,916	Log04
194,405,131	Pta08
138,884,690	Kou03
108,651,773	Kou01

[Angela]

I think I'm missing the outlier from the Lazaridis paper, the one from a later period in Crete to whom I was pretty close.

Distance to:	Angela
7.68359942	Greece_MBA_Log02
12.92423692	Greece_MBA_Log04
18.18077556	I9033_Mycenaean_1352_bc_M_
20.45531960	I9041_Greece_Mycenaean_3250_ybp
28.14540815	I9010_Mycenaean_1351_bc_
28.39983451	EBA:Greece_EBA_Kou03
28.62245447	I9005_Greece_Minoan_Lassithi_4000_ybp
29.34865244	I9006_Greece_Mycenaean_3287_ybp
32.09405085	Greece_MBA_Mik15
34.68130044	Greece_EBA_Pta08
35.10495549	EBA:Greece_EBA_Kou01

I don't know where Logkas is, but it must have been in the periphery of the Mycenaean world, as you said, Jovialis. The distance I get to Log2 is similar to my distance to the samples from Dalmatia. If Logkas is from near there it would make perfect sense. Indeed, could they be Illyrian like?

I don't know if they went south and intermingled a bit; we would need more samples from actual Mycenaeans in the Mycenaean Era settlements to the south and east to know that for sure. I don't think it's necessarily the case, however.

This reminds me of what happened with the Rome paper. Some people rush around making conclusions with perhaps no access to the precise location, the burial context, the methodology etc.

Thank you for all this, Jovialis. Exemplary work.

[kingjohn]

someone uploaded him to gedmatch
Log02 in Eurogenes K13
ZK5342256

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 25.42
2 West_Med 24.46
3 East_Med 23.63
4 Baltic 12.25
5 West_Asian 9.54
6 Red_Sea 2.29
7 Oceanian 1.21
8 Amerindian 1
9 Sub-Saharan 0.18

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Tuscan 3.68
2 North_Italian 7.17
3 West_Sicilian 8.01
4 Greek_Thessaly 8.14
5 Italian_Abruzzo 8.55
6 Central_Greek 11.05
7 East_Sicilian 11.74
8 Bulgarian 13.02
9 South_Italian 13.1
10 Romanian 13.81
11 Ashkenazi 14.7
12 Spanish_Extremadura 15.58
13 Portuguese 15.61
14 Spanish_Andalucia 16.3
15 Spanish_Murcia 16.68
16 Spanish_Valencia 16.89
17 Spanish_Galicia 16.92
18 Serbian 17.06
19 Spanish_Cataluna 17.56
20 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 17.83

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 61.4% North_Italian + 38.6% Central_Greek @ 2.35

[Angela]

I ran the samples through the K13 Modern so there would be no squawking from other places.

Distance to:	Greece_MBA_Log02
3.95887610	Tuscan
8.18320842	North_Italian
9.02556923	West_Sicilian
9.20050542	Greek_Thessaly
9.67008273	Italian_Abruzzo
12.67926654	Central_Greek
13.35816604	East_Sicilian
14.66986367	Bulgarian
15.02793066	South_Italian
15.55129898	Romanian
16.80972933	Ashkenazi
17.95004457	Spanish_Extremadura
18.02786454	Portuguese
18.75250117	Spanish_Andalucia
19.22330097	Spanish_Murcia
19.26025182	Serbian
19.50536080	Spanish_Valencia
19.51763818	Spanish_Galicia
20.30129060	Spanish_Cataluna
20.56086088	Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
21.11848479	Italian_Jewish
21.14110688	Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
21.51626594	Sephardic_Jewish
21.53301883	Algerian_Jewish
23.12442215	Spanish_Cantabria

Log4

Distance to:	Greece_MBA_Log04
8.35465738	Romanian
9.15210905	Bulgarian
11.49876080	Greek_Thessaly
11.76738289	Serbian
12.66054106	Tuscan
12.79527647	North_Italian
14.23441955	Italian_Abruzzo
16.80767384	West_Sicilian
17.33217240	Central_Greek
18.76695500	East_Sicilian
19.11081108	Moldavian
19.34580833	Hungarian
19.40008505	Portuguese
19.79225354	French
20.08691365	Spanish_Extremadura
20.52343051	Spanish_Galicia
20.62840517	Austrian
20.92206491	Spanish_Cataluna
21.09877011	West_German
21.27530258	Spanish_Murcia
21.36302179	South_Italian
21.70000230	Spanish_Andalucia
21.75738036	Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
21.82477262	Spanish_Valencia
22.01043389	Croatian

Well, well, here's a surprise, this sample is closest to admixed Jews (i.e. those which mixed with Europeans), but then Mycenaeans were pretty close to them as well.

Distance to:	Greece_MBA_Mik15
18.52527193	Algerian_Jewish
19.47616492	Italian_Jewish
22.04608582	Sephardic_Jewish
22.59917919	Tunisian_Jewish
22.62203572	Libyan_Jewish
23.48751370	South_Italian
24.23913159	West_Sicilian
24.41921375	Ashkenazi
25.45199992	Tunisian
25.51561875	East_Sicilian
26.79552761	Algerian
26.84176969	Sardinian
27.07234382	Central_Greek
27.57608565	Mozabite_Berber
27.78684401	Cyprian
27.93904973	Moroccan
28.34711096	Tuscan
28.77691262	Italian_Abruzzo
30.96489141	Greek_Thessaly
31.25588905	Samaritan
33.31969238	Lebanese_Christian
33.32246239	North_Italian
34.06860725	Egyptian
34.22980865	Lebanese_Muslim
34.40983580	Palestinian

Distance to:	Greece_MBA_Mik15
18.52527193	Algerian_Jewish
19.47616492	Italian_Jewish
22.04608582	Sephardic_Jewish
22.59917919	Tunisian_Jewish
22.62203572	Libyan_Jewish
23.48751370	South_Italian
24.23913159	West_Sicilian
24.41921375	Ashkenazi
25.45199992	Tunisian
25.51561875	East_Sicilian
26.79552761	Algerian
26.84176969	Sardinian
27.07234382	Central_Greek
27.57608565	Mozabite_Berber
27.78684401	Cyprian
27.93904973	Moroccan
28.34711096	Tuscan
28.77691262	Italian_Abruzzo
30.96489141	Greek_Thessaly
31.25588905	Samaritan
33.31969238	Lebanese_Christian
33.32246239	North_Italian
34.06860725	Egyptian
34.22980865	Lebanese_Muslim
34.40983580	Palestinian

The first three were Middle Bronze Age. Now for the Early Bronze Age. Much the same for the first one...

Distance to:	Greece_EBA_Pta08
16.32743091	Algerian_Jewish
17.79478294	Italian_Jewish
19.81873861	Tunisian_Jewish
19.92590776	Libyan_Jewish
20.18929915	Sephardic_Jewish
22.12526158	South_Italian
22.56049202	Cyprian
23.31849266	Ashkenazi
24.53357903	East_Sicilian
24.91526440	West_Sicilian
25.69987549	Tunisian
25.91040525	Samaritan
25.97189442	Central_Greek
27.59686214	Algerian
27.73495628	Lebanese_Christian
28.45815876	Mozabite_Berber
28.80092707	Moroccan
28.81681107	Italian_Abruzzo
29.38614469	Lebanese_Muslim
30.18337125	Palestinian
30.34125245	Syrian
30.55785987	Tuscan
30.63102349	Lebanese_Druze
31.10842008	Jordanian
31.11900705	Greek_Thessaly

Same again...

Distance to:	EBA:Greece_EBA_Kou01
16.19176643	Algerian_Jewish
17.37221345	Italian_Jewish
19.43704453	Tunisian_Jewish
19.70652937	Libyan_Jewish
19.86622007	Sephardic_Jewish
21.27427320	Cyprian
21.80122703	South_Italian
23.07222139	Ashkenazi
24.47097464	East_Sicilian
24.97725766	Samaritan
25.12103302	West_Sicilian
25.75772894	Central_Greek
26.47167354	Lebanese_Christian
27.11146805	Tunisian
28.29519040	Lebanese_Muslim
28.72263045	Italian_Abruzzo
29.05404103	Lebanese_Druze
29.13735232	Algerian
29.56914946	Palestinian
29.63970142	Syrian
30.08778324	Mozabite_Berber
30.45786105	Jordanian
30.62695382	Moroccan
31.04383192	Tuscan
31.22407565	Greek_Thessaly

And once more...

Distance to:	EBA:Greece_EBA_Kou03
11.04838450	Algerian_Jewish
12.02086103	Italian_Jewish
12.72752922	South_Italian
12.99317513	Sephardic_Jewish
14.37239020	Cyprian
14.59525265	Tunisian_Jewish
15.21940866	Libyan_Jewish
16.36783736	East_Sicilian
17.17588135	Central_Greek
17.55569708	Ashkenazi
17.96173711	West_Sicilian
20.08987805	Italian_Abruzzo
21.06931655	Lebanese_Muslim
21.61782366	Samaritan
22.77767767	Lebanese_Christian
22.87203970	Syrian
24.39007995	Greek_Thessaly
24.76770074	Lebanese_Druze
24.78269154	Tuscan
25.58807926	Jordanian
25.73555323	Palestinian
26.03208021	Tunisian
27.06813994	Turkish
27.66145694	Algerian
28.11674768	Assyrian

So, even in the Middle Bronze, where we see the increased steppe is from a settlement on the periphery of the Mycenaean world, the other Middle Bronze Age settlements were still like the much later Mycenaean samples we have.

Now, it could be that there are actual Mycenaean samples which have more steppe, brought by these peripheral people. We don't know. However, if there weren't a lot of them, how much change could they have wrought? We just don't know and won't know until we have more samples.

What we do know, however, is when Bronze Age Greece flourished, and when it got temporarily knocked down.

"The Early Bronze Age (3200-2000 B.C.) is characterised by the spread of metal, the use of which is already known in the Final Neolithic or Chalcolithic period. The Northeastern Aegean, the Cyclades and Mainland Greece are home to specific cultural groups during this period.Initially the way of life in all aspects continues along the lines of its Neolithic predecessor. The general development of the second phase of the period (2700-2200 B.C.) leads to the creation of organised settlements, the construction of monumental buildings and a controlled economy with the accumulation of goods and the use of seals. This is the time of the first urban development, communication between settlements and commerce by sea with the shipping of metal objects, Melian obsidian and fine pottery throughout the Aegean.
In the Northeastern Aegean, Poliochni in Lemnos and Troy in Asia Minor become prominent as strong proto-urban centres.To this same period belong the graves of Leukas in the Ionian Sea, with their rich funerary equipment. In Mainland Greece, Boeotian Orchomenos beside the Kopais lake, Lerna in the Argolid and Aegina are among the important centres of this time -for the well-known Neolithic sites such as Sesklo and Lianokladi we have less evidence. In Attica there are many small but important settlements such as Raphina, Askitario and Ag. Kosmas. The imported objects found in these settlements provide evidence of their habitual communication with the Cyclades.
The development observable during the second phase of the Early Bronze Age comes to an end during the third and last phase of the Period (2200-2000 B.C.). Evident are destructions, the abandonment of settlements and a general disorganisation that has been traditionally associated with the incursion of new populations. The Middle Bronze Age (2000-1600 B.C.) is characterised initially by an economic and cultural decline,as can be seen in the poor remains of the settlements and in the poverty of the burials. It is a time of re establishment and by the middle of the period, development is evident. The growth in population and consequent necessity of further cultivation of the fertile land leads to the appearance of new settlements in opportune places. The most important of these have bronze workshops. Graves are now supplied with bronze weapons and jewellery of gold, bronze and semi-precious stones, in addition to pottery. The pottery of the period, for the most part wheel-made, comprises two main categories Minyan ware and Matt Painted.

Toward the end of the Middle Bronze Age, the richly provided tombs of Mainland Greece bespeak the rise of anumber of ruling groups. The influence of the advanced culture of Minoan Crete, the importation of luxurious and beautifully worked vessels and weapons, the spread of new ideas and techniques is to bring about basic changes that are observable in all levels of life and art. The end of the Middle Helladic Period is marked by social change rather than by catastrophe. It is the time of the Shaft Graves at Mycenae and the new warrior aristocracy which introduces us to the Mycenaean period. "

The Log samples are dated to 2000 to 1800 BC.

[kingjohn]

I ran the samples through the K13 Modern so there would be no squawking from other places.

Distance to:	Greece_MBA_Log02
3.95887610	Tuscan
8.18320842	North_Italian
9.02556923	West_Sicilian
9.20050542	Greek_Thessaly
9.67008273	Italian_Abruzzo
12.67926654	Central_Greek
13.35816604	East_Sicilian
14.66986367	Bulgarian
15.02793066	South_Italian
15.55129898	Romanian
16.80972933	Ashkenazi
17.95004457	Spanish_Extremadura
18.02786454	Portuguese
18.75250117	Spanish_Andalucia
19.22330097	Spanish_Murcia
19.26025182	Serbian
19.50536080	Spanish_Valencia
19.51763818	Spanish_Galicia
20.30129060	Spanish_Cataluna
20.56086088	Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
21.11848479	Italian_Jewish
21.14110688	Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
21.51626594	Sephardic_Jewish
21.53301883	Algerian_Jewish
23.12442215	Spanish_Cantabria

Log4

Distance to:	Greece_MBA_Log04
8.35465738	Romanian
9.15210905	Bulgarian
11.49876080	Greek_Thessaly
11.76738289	Serbian
12.66054106	Tuscan
12.79527647	North_Italian
14.23441955	Italian_Abruzzo
16.80767384	West_Sicilian
17.33217240	Central_Greek
18.76695500	East_Sicilian
19.11081108	Moldavian
19.34580833	Hungarian
19.40008505	Portuguese
19.79225354	French
20.08691365	Spanish_Extremadura
20.52343051	Spanish_Galicia
20.62840517	Austrian
20.92206491	Spanish_Cataluna
21.09877011	West_German
21.27530258	Spanish_Murcia
21.36302179	South_Italian
21.70000230	Spanish_Andalucia
21.75738036	Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
21.82477262	Spanish_Valencia
22.01043389	Croatian

Well, well, here's a surprise, this sample is closest to admixed Jews (i.e. those which mixed with Europeans), but then Mycenaeans were pretty close to them as well.

Distance to:	Greece_MBA_Mik15
18.52527193	Algerian_Jewish
19.47616492	Italian_Jewish
22.04608582	Sephardic_Jewish
22.59917919	Tunisian_Jewish
22.62203572	Libyan_Jewish
23.48751370	South_Italian
24.23913159	West_Sicilian
24.41921375	Ashkenazi
25.45199992	Tunisian
25.51561875	East_Sicilian
26.79552761	Algerian
26.84176969	Sardinian
27.07234382	Central_Greek
27.57608565	Mozabite_Berber
27.78684401	Cyprian
27.93904973	Moroccan
28.34711096	Tuscan
28.77691262	Italian_Abruzzo
30.96489141	Greek_Thessaly
31.25588905	Samaritan
33.31969238	Lebanese_Christian
33.32246239	North_Italian
34.06860725	Egyptian
34.22980865	Lebanese_Muslim
34.40983580	Palestinian

Distance to:	Greece_MBA_Mik15
18.52527193	Algerian_Jewish
19.47616492	Italian_Jewish
22.04608582	Sephardic_Jewish
22.59917919	Tunisian_Jewish
22.62203572	Libyan_Jewish
23.48751370	South_Italian
24.23913159	West_Sicilian
24.41921375	Ashkenazi
25.45199992	Tunisian
25.51561875	East_Sicilian
26.79552761	Algerian
26.84176969	Sardinian
27.07234382	Central_Greek
27.57608565	Mozabite_Berber
27.78684401	Cyprian
27.93904973	Moroccan
28.34711096	Tuscan
28.77691262	Italian_Abruzzo
30.96489141	Greek_Thessaly
31.25588905	Samaritan
33.31969238	Lebanese_Christian
33.32246239	North_Italian
34.06860725	Egyptian
34.22980865	Lebanese_Muslim
34.40983580	Palestinian

The first three were Middle Bronze Age. Now for the Early Bronze Age. Much the same for the first one...

Distance to:	Greece_EBA_Pta08
16.32743091	Algerian_Jewish
17.79478294	Italian_Jewish
19.81873861	Tunisian_Jewish
19.92590776	Libyan_Jewish
20.18929915	Sephardic_Jewish
22.12526158	South_Italian
22.56049202	Cyprian
23.31849266	Ashkenazi
24.53357903	East_Sicilian
24.91526440	West_Sicilian
25.69987549	Tunisian
25.91040525	Samaritan
25.97189442	Central_Greek
27.59686214	Algerian
27.73495628	Lebanese_Christian
28.45815876	Mozabite_Berber
28.80092707	Moroccan
28.81681107	Italian_Abruzzo
29.38614469	Lebanese_Muslim
30.18337125	Palestinian
30.34125245	Syrian
30.55785987	Tuscan
30.63102349	Lebanese_Druze
31.10842008	Jordanian
31.11900705	Greek_Thessaly

Same again...

Distance to:	EBA:Greece_EBA_Kou01
16.19176643	Algerian_Jewish
17.37221345	Italian_Jewish
19.43704453	Tunisian_Jewish
19.70652937	Libyan_Jewish
19.86622007	Sephardic_Jewish
21.27427320	Cyprian
21.80122703	South_Italian
23.07222139	Ashkenazi
24.47097464	East_Sicilian
24.97725766	Samaritan
25.12103302	West_Sicilian
25.75772894	Central_Greek
26.47167354	Lebanese_Christian
27.11146805	Tunisian
28.29519040	Lebanese_Muslim
28.72263045	Italian_Abruzzo
29.05404103	Lebanese_Druze
29.13735232	Algerian
29.56914946	Palestinian
29.63970142	Syrian
30.08778324	Mozabite_Berber
30.45786105	Jordanian
30.62695382	Moroccan
31.04383192	Tuscan
31.22407565	Greek_Thessaly

And once more...

Distance to:	EBA:Greece_EBA_Kou03
11.04838450	Algerian_Jewish
12.02086103	Italian_Jewish
12.72752922	South_Italian
12.99317513	Sephardic_Jewish
14.37239020	Cyprian
14.59525265	Tunisian_Jewish
15.21940866	Libyan_Jewish
16.36783736	East_Sicilian
17.17588135	Central_Greek
17.55569708	Ashkenazi
17.96173711	West_Sicilian
20.08987805	Italian_Abruzzo
21.06931655	Lebanese_Muslim
21.61782366	Samaritan
22.77767767	Lebanese_Christian
22.87203970	Syrian
24.39007995	Greek_Thessaly
24.76770074	Lebanese_Druze
24.78269154	Tuscan
25.58807926	Jordanian
25.73555323	Palestinian
26.03208021	Tunisian
27.06813994	Turkish
27.66145694	Algerian
28.11674768	Assyrian

So, even in the Middle Bronze, where we see the increased steppe is from a settlement on the periphery of the Mycenaean world, the other Middle Bronze Age settlements were still like the much later Mycenaean samples we have.

Now, it could be that there are actual Mycenaean samples which have more steppe, brought by these peripheral people. We don't know. However, if there weren't a lot of them, how much change could they have wrought? We just don't know and won't know until we have more samples.

What we do know, however, is when Bronze Age Greece flourished, and when it got temporarily knocked down.

"The Early Bronze Age (3200-2000 B.C.) is characterised by the spread of metal, the use of which is already known in the Final Neolithic or Chalcolithic period. The Northeastern Aegean, the Cyclades and Mainland Greece are home to specific cultural groups during this period.Initially the way of life in all aspects continues along the lines of its Neolithic predecessor. The general development of the second phase of the period (2700-2200 B.C.) leads to the creation of organised settlements, the construction of monumental buildings and a controlled economy with the accumulation of goods and the use of seals. This is the time of the first urban development, communication between settlements and commerce by sea with the shipping of metal objects, Melian obsidian and fine pottery throughout the Aegean.
In the Northeastern Aegean, Poliochni in Lemnos and Troy in Asia Minor become prominent as strong proto-urban centres.To this same period belong the graves of Leukas in the Ionian Sea, with their rich funerary equipment. In Mainland Greece, Boeotian Orchomenos beside the Kopais lake, Lerna in the Argolid and Aegina are among the important centres of this time -for the well-known Neolithic sites such as Sesklo and Lianokladi we have less evidence. In Attica there are many small but important settlements such as Raphina, Askitario and Ag. Kosmas. The imported objects found in these settlements provide evidence of their habitual communication with the Cyclades.
The development observable during the second phase of the Early Bronze Age comes to an end during the third and last phase of the Period (2200-2000 B.C.). Evident are destructions, the abandonment of settlements and a general disorganisation that has been traditionally associated with the incursion of new populations. The Middle Bronze Age (2000-1600 B.C.) is characterised initially by an economic and cultural decline,as can be seen in the poor remains of the settlements and in the poverty of the burials. It is a time of re establishment and by the middle of the period, development is evident. The growth in population and consequent necessity of further cultivation of the fertile land leads to the appearance of new settlements in opportune places. The most important of these have bronze workshops. Graves are now supplied with bronze weapons and jewellery of gold, bronze and semi-precious stones, in addition to pottery. The pottery of the period, for the most part wheel-made, comprises two main categories Minyan ware and Matt Painted.

Toward the end of the Middle Bronze Age, the richly provided tombs of Mainland Greece bespeak the rise of anumber of ruling groups. The influence of the advanced culture of Minoan Crete, the importation of luxurious and beautifully worked vessels and weapons, the spread of new ideas and techniques is to bring about basic changes that are observable in all levels of life and art. The end of the Middle Helladic Period is marked by social change rather than by catastrophe. It is the time of the Shaft Graves at Mycenae and the new warrior aristocracy which introduces us to the Mycenaean period. "

The Log samples are dated to 2000 to 1800 BC.

yes
Greece_EBA_Pta08 and Greece_MBA_Mik15
cluster with western jews specificly algerian jews

algerian jews have higher west med element in k13 than other west jewish groups ( aschenazi) thats why they fit more

[Angela]

yes
Greece_EBA_Pta08 and Greece_MBA_Mik15
cluster with western jews specificly algerian jews

algerian jews have higher west med element in k13 than other west jewish groups ( aschenazi) thats why they fit more

I also think that North African and Italian Jews have practiced the strictest endogamy of any Jewish groups of which I'm aware.

[kingjohn]

I also think that North African and Italian Jews have practiced the strictest endogamy of any Jewish groups of which I'm aware.

yes
and anyway this result and overlapp is not something
nordicist would like
but we are not in battle here of med- nordic

[Pax Augusta]

Lemnian and some other non-Indo-European languages were spoken in northern Greece as late as Iron Age.

There is no evidence Lemnian was spoken in northern Greece. Apart from the handful of inscriptions found in Lemnos, this language is not attested anywhere else.

[Stuvanè]

Using Dodecad Global k13, Log02 is my best proxy

Distance to:	Dodecad_Glob_13Stuvanè
4.04188075	Log02
4.08461749	I12221:I12221
4.34099067	Iron_Age_Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro_:R1
5.09472276	Late_Antiquity_Mausole_di_Augusto_:R33
5.18898834	I6491:I6491
5.19982692	Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna_:R55
5.21557284	scy300:scy300
5.21999042	scy305:scy305
5.62549553	scy192:scy192
5.67967429	scy197:scy197
6.18153703	Croatia_Vucedol_:I3499
6.45676390	Croatia_LBA_:I3313
6.72580850	Croatia_EMBA_:I4331
7.03241068	_Croatia_EMBA_:I4332
7.23624903	Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi_:R105
7.48278691	Late_Antiquity_Celio_:R36
7.69515432	Imperial_Era_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis_:R111
7.69551818	I3574:I3574
7.72903616	Medieval_Era_Cancelleria_:R1285
7.79855756	Medieval_Era_Cancelleria_:R1283
8.04805567	Log04
8.35907890	Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia_:R120
8.41250260	I8475:I8475
8.59768574	Medieval_Era_Cancelleria_:R1287
8.63588444	Iron_Age_Civitavecchia_:R474

With Eurogenes k13 Log02 is in 5th position

Distance to:	Eurogenesk13Stuvanè
1.74533664	SZ36_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1442_ybp
3.14240354	R1_Abruzzo_Teramo_Late_Bronze_Age_Italy
3.42537589	SZ31_Longobard_M_T1a1a_PF5620_U4c2a_60th_century
5.09575313	SZ37_Hungary_Langobard_1447_ybp
5.29883950	Greece_MBA_Log02
5.57403803	R55_Lazio_Rome_Late_Medieval_Italy
5.93517481	CL36_longobard_north_italy
6.23759569	R33_Lazio_Rome_Early_Medieval_Italy
6.27857468	SZ43_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1431_ybp
6.71080472	scy192_SG_Moldova_Scythian_SG
6.75707777	NW54_Germany_Early_Medieval.SG_1491_ybp
6.89536801	SZ32_Hungary_Langobard_1442_ybp
6.95242404	STR535_Germany_Early_Medieval.SG_1491_ybp
6.96397875	SZ1_Hungary_BA.SG_3950_ybp
7.07966807	SZ1.SG_longobard_hungary
7.11709913	R36_Lazio_Rome_Italy_Late_Antiquity
7.43295365	I7424_morisco_
7.68773048	R105_Lazio_Rome_Italy_Late_Antiquity
7.80582475	I4331_Croatia_MBA_3526_ybp
8.39662432	Greece_MBA_Log04
8.65786348	I7043_Hungary_BA_4000_ybp
8.95337367	I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp
9.20757297	R970_Lazio_Rome_Renaissance_Italy
9.32214568	R1287_Lazio_Rome_Medieval_Italy
9.32721287	CL23_longobard_north_italy