The genomic history of the Aegean palatial civilizations.

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All of these theories have been disproven in Lazaridis et al. 2017. Minoans are not modeled with Levantine. Nor are the Myceneans. Only the Anatolian_BA had a small amount of Levantine, 5%. There is no African ancestry in them either.

This is becoming clearer to me that you are a sockpuppet of one of these idiots from Anthrogenica.
 
Concerning R1b-M269 and related (including lost) subclades they could have had some short of networks, so some subclades could have been expanding and rexpanding over them.
The prescence of L754 in Oman 5500 years ago likely shows that before the timeframe of IE migrations some R1b groups would have existed in Central Asia (the Kelteminar culture could have had R1b imho), or the Persian Golf etc. These groups did not make big demographic impact but that doesn't mean they did not exist. So if someone finds R1b e.g. in the Levant they should consider the possibility that it arrived from the east too (even though the ultimate origin is in Europe Villabruna, Iron Gates, Lepenski Vir etc.). I think, for example, the M269(xL51) sample in Askhelon (ASH 067) had more 'Iran Chalcolithic' related than non R1b samples in the same area. (?) That may point to an arrival from the east, even though in the relevant study they grouped ASH_IA1 samples together and modeled them as 43% ''Minoan".

philistines-admixture.png


So, even if someone finds R1b in Greece during the BA, they should also consider where it came from and where his ancestors were from. Was it Bulgaria, Armenia, Ukraine, Italy, the Levant, Albania? And does the place of origin work? Is it from a subclade that ever existed in the 'steppes' etc?

I am not sure this modeling is very good, despite it being used in the paper. Levant_ChL is based on the peq'in cave samples, which already had a good amount of Anatolian_N, and CHG. I think it would have been better for them to use more traditional source populations, i.e. Anatolian_N, Steppe, CHG, etc.

Besides, Ash068 clusters with Myceneans. Who are absent of Levant admixture. He is more than likely a Cretan invader to the region; i.e. Phillistine.
 
Sorry but you should read the supplementary information

MIK08: haplogroup L-The MIK08 individual was associated with the African haplogroup L3d1b1. Haplogroup L3 sits at the root of the mtDNA phylogenetic tree of haplogroups found outside of Africa, and thus it is associated to the out of Africa expansion (Behar et al., 2008; Van Oven and Kayser, 2009). A HG individual with the haplogroup L was found in the African Mota Cave (Llorente et al., 2015) and in Iberia associated with the Bell Beaker culture (Olalde et al., 2018).

I guess the authors of the paper should to than? They concluded there is no African or Levantine admixture! Take your sophistry elsewhere.
 
I guess the authors of the paper should to than? They concluded there is no African or Levantine admixture! Take your sophistry elsewhere.

jovailis,
gaska only mention that mik08 carry mtdna L3D1B1 which is indeed an african mtdna
( no way a round it)
he don't speak of mik08 autosomal profile which very likely was like mik15 a southern european profile ....
 
Not only is this post misguided, it is wrong on several points. Nevertheless, we are not here to discuss social issues or make inflammatory inferences. We are here to strictly discuss the paper.

Genetically, these samples have absolutely nothing to do with SSA, so the fact that they may be dark-skinned doesn't mean they are black. Just like how it doesn't mean Chedder man was SSA, because he was dark skinned. Black and White are nebulous outmoded constructs not based on genetics, which we have discussed on this site, ad nauseum. If you want to discuss that, please search for another thread dedicated to that topic.

In addition, anyone who thinks possessing mtDna L3 means someone is African doesn't know a darn thing about genetics.

That particular mtDna's appearance in Europe is the result of arrival in the Neolithic, and has nothing to do with skin color or "racial" affiliation.

Are we going to have the "one drop rule" for uniparental markers now? What's next? All E-V13 men are African?

I predicted to you ignorant t-rolls would take over this forum, and it's happening.
 
In addition, anyone who thinks possessing mtDna L3 means someone is African doesn't know a darn thing about genetics.

That particular mtDna's appearance in Europe is the result of arrival in the Neolithic, and has nothing to do with skin color or "racial" affiliation.

Are we going to have the "one drop rule" for uniparental markers now? What's next? All E-V13 men are African?

I predicted to you ignorant t-rolls would take over this forum, and it's happening.

Thank you, and this addresses kingjohn's post as well.
 
Are you all really so concerned about the skin color of the Mycenaeans? Is this the only interesting thing you have found in this latest paper on Greece?

Blacks, half-blacks, blacks tending to be dark, dark tending to be black, pale Italians like the Swedes, half-pale French like the English, half-blond Greeks like the Norwegians, Finns who look like Egyptians, white or black Egyptian mummies, Arabs not so dark, Belgians not so blond, dark Hispanics like American Indians, blond Argentines with Armenian blood, olive-skinned Spaniards, blond Basques, Sicilians who don't want to be Levantines, Englishmen who think that the more Yamnaya blood they have, the more white they are, Italians who don't want to be Levantines, Slavs who think they are part of the Aryan race, Greeks who want to be neither Turks nor Slavs, Poles who are horrified because Yamnaya riders have 50% Iranian or Caucasian blood, Calabrians who pretend to be descendants of the Goths, Americans who pretend to be 100% European, blond Bulgarians who think they are Nordic, dark-haired Walloons who look like Romanians, morons who think that the more steppe ancestry you have the blonder you will be, South Americans worried because they are not and do not look white, North Americans from Massachusetts who would commit suicide if they found out that they had a drop of Indian or black blood, Italian-Americans who would kill anyone who said they were not as white as the Poles, Jews who pretend to be 100% Levantine etc etc etc.

Come on guys, if you are really so worried, why don't you divide Europe and the rest of the world in blond countries with blue eyes, brown countries with brown eyes, black countries, half black countries, half blond countries, Indian countries, Hispanic countries, half Hispanic countries, Asian countries or half Asian countries, and then everybody will be clear about which race, people etc. belong to?

After reading hundreds of posts of this style in many internet forums, I have decided that we Basques are not white people, nor do we want to be, we have African, Levantine, Iranian, Phoenician, Roman, Gothic, Anatolian, and even Chinese blood, if the northwestern Europeans want to monopolize whiteness and belittle other Europeans for being more or less swarthy I think they should immediately go to a psychiatrist and should be accompanied by all those Europeans with complexes who try to discuss who is whiter or browner. I like wine, olive oil, bullfights, hunting, the festivities of San Fermin and beautiful women, and the most beautiful ones I have seen are in Cuba, a mixture of Spaniards, blacks and Indians so, in my opinion, the more mixed the people are the more interesting and attractive people you will find.

We have three half black Mycenaeans, who cares if they had one of the most advanced bronze age cultures in Europe when the Nordics were still in their balls trying to find some fish to eat?

By the way, does anyone still think that R1b-P312 is responsible for the spread of the IE language in mainland Europe, or that certain male markers were determinant in that process? Does anybody have any explanation for the absence of R1b-M269 in Greece (Neolithic, Chalcolithic or Bronze Age) and yet Greek is an Indo-European language?

Thank you Gaska! You said what I was about to say. Who cares what the alleles are predicting? They predict that I have blue gray eyes like my father but I have dark brown eyes like my mother. As far as R1b-269 not being found among the Greeks, should we not wait a little bit until more samples are analyzed?
 
In addition, anyone who thinks possessing mtDna L3 means someone is African doesn't know a darn thing about genetics.

That particular mtDna's appearance in Europe is the result of arrival in the Neolithic, and has nothing to do with skin color or "racial" affiliation.

Are we going to have the "one drop rule" for uniparental markers now? What's next? All E-V13 men are African?

I predicted to you ignorant t-rolls would take over this forum, and it's happening.

not the same thing .....
e-v13 are european it doesn't matter that e-m78 originated in north east africa
what matteres is the last mutation / snp
and it originated in europe wether balkan or southwest europe
L3d1b1 is an african mtdna
https://www.yfull.com/mtree/L3d1b1/
i dont know why people here take offence by it
after said all that doesn't effect this bronze age individual autosomal profile
which i say again was very likely like mik15 southern european
 
Thank you Gaska! You said what I was about to say. Who cares what the alleles are predicting? They predict that I have blue gray eyes like my father but I have dark brown eyes like my mother. As far as R1b-269 not being found among the Greeks, should we not wait a little bit until more samples are analyzed?
You were going to say the Mycenaeans are half black? Because that is monstrously idiotic.
 
In addition, anyone who thinks possessing mtDna L3 means someone is African doesn't know a darn thing about genetics.
That particular mtDna's appearance in Europe is the result of arrival in the Neolithic, and has nothing to do with skin color or "racial" affiliation.
Are we going to have the "one drop rule" for uniparental markers now? What's next? All E-V13 men are African?
I predicted to you ignorant t-rolls would take over this forum, and it's happening.

Low-IQ and psychotic behavior is not only a problem on forums, but our society as a whole.
 
In addition, anyone who thinks possessing mtDna L3 means someone is African doesn't know a darn thing about genetics.

That particular mtDna's appearance in Europe is the result of arrival in the Neolithic, and has nothing to do with skin color or "racial" affiliation.

Are we going to have the "one drop rule" for uniparental markers now? What's next? All E-V13 men are African?

I predicted to you ignorant t-rolls would take over this forum, and it's happening.

:LOL::LOL: Angela I was gonna mention the ridiculous E-V13 African clade claims from a couple of years ago while I was reading half way through your comment, glad you beat me to it. Great analogy, and completely agree.
 
You were going to say the Mycenaeans are half black? Because that is monstrously idiotic.

Nope I was going to say that I don't care. I think there is more to phenotypes than compiling alleles. There are gene expression, exomes.
 
Nope I was going to say that I don't care. I think there is more to phenotypes than compiling alleles. There are gene expression, exomes.

Right, and as I said, it doesn't make someone "black" as in Sub-Saharan African. Just like it doesn't make cheddar man, "black", as in Sub-Saharan African. These people are genetically western Eurasians, regardless of their skin color. We don't need to make asinine statements say that.
 
Right, and as I said, it doesn't make someone "black" as in Sub-Saharan African. Just like it doesn't make cheddar man, "black", as in Sub-Saharan African. These people are genetically western Eurasians, regardless of their skin color. We don't need to make asinine statements say that.

They probably were tanned Meds but I also remember that some if not the majority of these samples are from "elite" burials and thus not necessarily representative of the general population. How numerous were the Greeks? Was there wholesale population replacement, population mixing or elite replacement? I also want to know about the slave population. How many were there? From where?
 
Manika is one of the first urban cities of the Early Helladic period (EH) (3,000-2,600 BCE) (Tab. i) in Greece and the Aegean. It is located 5 km to the north of Chalkis on the island of Euboea. The settlement extends to an area of at least 100 acres, though a large portion of this is now submerged under the sea. In 1955, surface reconnaissance in Euboea, Theocharis (1959) confirmed the existence of a small important prehistoric settlement (sector III). The enormous extent of the EH settlement remained unknown till 1982, thus the archaeological site continued to suffer destruction from cultivation

The Manika tombs belong to chamber-tombs consisting of a “dromos” (a corridor) and usually of one chamber, similar to the Mycenaean chamber-tombs



You can’t take this first case of an Aegean individual with an African mtDNA, thus a clear outlier, to make a sweeping statement about the Mycenaeans or Minoans having SSA admixture and were dark because of that. I already explained to you, that the Mycenaeans from the Lazaradis paper don't harbor real SSA genetic input. Besides, there are other studies that showed Minoans having many mtDNA that are typically found in Northern or Western Europe. Some biased folks took this fact for claiming that Minoans are closely related to Northern or Western Europeans, which isn't the case.


https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23673646/


Stamatoyannopoulos and his research team analyzed samples from 37 skeletons found in a cave in Crete’s Lassithi plateau and compared them with mitochondrial DNA sequences from 135 modern and ancient human populations. The Minoan samples revealed 21 distinct mitochondrial DNA variations, of which six were unique to the Minoans and 15 were shared with modern and ancient populations. None of the Minoans carried mitochondrial DNA variations characteristic of African populations.
Further analysis showed that the Minoans were only distantly related to Egyptian, Libyan, and other North African populations. The Minoan shared the greatest percentage of their mitochondrial DNA variation with European populations, especially those in Northern and Western Europe.

https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms2871

The Minoan mtDNA haplotypes resembled those of the European populations(Figs2b, 3aand 4; SupplementaryFigs S1–S3).The majority of Minoans were classified in haplogroups H (43.2%), T(18.9%), K (16.2%) and I (8.1%). Haplogroups U5A, W, J2, U, X and J were each identified in a single individual. The greatest percentage of shared Minoan haplotypes was observed with European populations, particularly with individuals from Northern and Western Europe(26.98% and 29.28%, respectively) (Figs2, 3, 4; SupplementaryTable S7).Notably, in Fig.4, a gradient can be observed, with the lowest affinity for Minoans found with Northern African populations and the percentage of haplotype sharing increasing as we move through the Middle East,Caucasus and the Mediterranean islands, southern Europe and mainland Europe (Fig.4a).Of notice also is the high percentage of haplotype sharing with Bronze Age (Fig.4c)and Neolithic (Fig.4d)European populations.

https://science.rpi.edu/computer-sc...ins-minoans-first-major-european-civilization
https://phys.org/news/2013-05-mtdna-minoans-europe-africa.html


 
They probably were tanned Meds but I also remember that some if not the majority of these samples are from "elite" burials and thus not necessarily representative of the general population. How numerous were the Greeks? Was there wholesale population replacement, population mixing or elite replacement?

https://youtu.be/5OazVFNWL7I

In this lecture video, Lazaridis says that the elites and commoners were genetically similar.
 
All of these theories have been disproven in Lazaridis et al. 2017. Minoans are not modeled with Levantine. Nor are the Myceneans. Only the Anatolian_BA had a small amount of Levantine, 5%. There is no African ancestry in them either.
This is becoming clearer to me that you are a sockpuppet of one of these idiots from Anthrogenica.

On anthrogenica, there were an Afro- centrist and some amateurs who played with certain calculators where some Mycenaeans/Minoans scored some small SSA admixture. However, even Davidski and others stepped in order to set the record straight by explaining and demonstrating, that there is no real SSA admixture in Mycenaeans or Minoans. That said, there will be always sporadic cases of folks who had exotic admixture or a non-typical, unusual genetic makeup. But, outliers don't define who, for instance, the Minoans or Mycenaeans ethnically or genetically speaking were. I'm glad, that Gaska informed us about this first detected African mtDNA among BA Greeks, but his conclusions are misguided and misleading.
 
On anthrogenica, there were an Afro- centrist and some amateurs who played with certain calculators where some Mycenaeans/Minoans scored some small SSA admixture. However, even Davidski and others stepped in order to set the record straight by explaining and demonstrating, that there is no real SSA admixture in Mycenaeans or Minoans. That said, there will be always sporadic cases of folks who had exotic admixture or a non-typical, unusual genetic makeup. But, outliers don't define who, for instance, the Minoans or Mycenaeans ethnically or genetically speaking were. I'm glad, that Gaska informed us about this first detected African mtDNA among BA Greeks, but his conclusions are misguided and misleading.

What conclusions?
 
Thank you Gaska! You said what I was about to say. Who cares what the alleles are predicting? They predict that I have blue gray eyes like my father but I have dark brown eyes like my mother. As far as R1b-269 not being found among the Greeks, should we not wait a little bit until more samples are analyzed?

Yeah, probably R1b-L23>Z2103, will appear in Greece from the north, but until then it's all conjecture.
 
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