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Thread: Maternal Lineages of 10th to 11th century Carpathians.

  1. #1
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
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    3 members found this post helpful.

    Maternal Lineages of 10th to 11th century Carpathians.

    See:
    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...268v1.full.pdf

    "Maternal lineages from 10-11th century commoner cemeteries of theCarpathian Basin"

    "Abstract:Background: Nomadic groups of conquering Hungarians played a predominant role in Hungarian prehistory, butgenetic data are available only from the immigrant elite strata. Most of the 10-11th century remains in the CarpathianBasin belong to common people, whose origin and relation to the immigrant elite has been widely debated.Methods: Mitogenome sequences were determined from 202 individuals with Next Generation Sequencing combinedwith hybridization capture. Median Joining networks were used for phylogenetic analysis. The commoner populationwas compared to 87 ancient Eurasian populations with sequence based (Fst) and haplogroup based population geneticmethods.Results: Haplogroup composition of the commoner population markedly differs from the elite and in contrast to theelite, commoners cluster with European populations. Besides, detectable sub-haplogroup sharing indicates admixturebetween the elite and commoners.Conclusions: Majority of the 10-11th century commoners most likely represent local populations of the CarpathianBasin, which admixed with the eastern immigrant groups including conquering Hungarians."

    "The ratio of east Eurasian major-Hgs inthe commoners is 7.69% contrary to the 19.64% of the elite, besides the elite contains a broad spectrum of these; A, B, C,D, F, G, and Y, while only C and D occur with notable frequencies in the commoners, with single appearance of B.West Eurasian Hgs of ConqC and ConqE also show notable differences: Hgs HV, I, M, R, U1, U8 and W occurwith moderate frequencies in commoners, while these are completely absent from the elite. Three Hgs N, T1 and X,typically widespread both in east and west Eurasia, show much higher ratio in the elite than in commoners: N 11.61% inelite, 3.85% in commoners; T1 11.61% in elite, 2.75% in commoners; X 4.46% in elite and 0.55% in commoners. Theopposite is true for Hgs H and T2; among commoners H is the most prevalent Hg with 33.52% frequency, while in theelite group its proportion is significantly lower 19.64%; T2 has 6.59% proportion in the commoners and 1.79% in theelite."




    So, the elites were completely absorbed?


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  2. #2
    Regular Member kingjohn's Avatar
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    some of the commoner mtdna type look mongolid to me though ...

    u4c1
    t2e
    u8b1a1
    u4b1a3a
    j1c2j
    u3a1b
    u4a1a
    u5a1d2b
    h6a1b
    h5
    u4a2
    u4a2
    v7a
    t2e
    u3b2a
    H+ 16291
    D4m2a
    j1c2j
    u5a2a1
    N1a1a1a1a
    N1a1a1a1a
    D4i2
    v7a
    u5a1c2a1
    h5a1
    k1a1b1
    h1u2
    k1a1a
    h1c
    h5b
    C5b1a
    u8b1b1
    u8a1a1
    u2e1b1
    hv1a1a
    i5a2+16086
    u5b1b1a
    k2b2


    v7a
    h6a1a
    t2e7
    h5e1a
    h5a
    h3h
    N1b1a3
    h1b
    u4a
    h13a2c1
    h10a
    u1a1a+16129
    t1a1b
    C4a2a1
    h1u2
    i
    h5a1n
    t1b3
    h1j
    h
    r1a
    u5b1b2
    N1a1a1a1a
    h10e
    h11a7
    D4h4a
    N1b1a2
    h11a2
    u5b1b
    h4a1a1a
    t1a1
    u5a1a1
    h1a7
    t1a1
    t1a
    v7a
    hv4c
    u4a1
    h10e
    N1a1a1a1a
    M1b2
    i1a1a
    N1a1a1a1a
    N1a1a1a1a
    u4a2
    h102
    k1a+ 150
    N1a1a1a1a
    h
    h
    u4a1c
    h1c
    h2a1
    h3h
    k1a4a1
    h10e
    h3h6
    k1a4c1
    i1a1a3
    t1a4
    t1a1
    u5a1d2b
    i4a
    C4b
    t2b4a
    N1a1a1a1a
    h13a2b2
    u5a2a1b
    u5a1b1
    h6a1a
    x2f
    u4a2
    h13a2b2
    h1c2
    D5a3a1
    t2b+152
    h4a1a1a
    u5a2b1c
    u3b3
    u5b1b1+ 16192
    h1q
    M1a1b1
    u5a1a1h
    u5a1a1h
    k1c1
    j2b1c
    v6
    h1a1
    C4a2c
    t2d2
    u2e1b
    k1a2
    D4e4
    v6
    h13a2b2a
    h16a1
    u5b1d1
    j2a2e
    v7a
    u2e1
    v13
    h14a
    h1aj
    u5b2b
    h4a1a1a
    j2b1a
    h1aj
    hv15
    w5
    w3a1a
    h1c
    h11
    D4b1
    w3a1
    t2b
    u5a1a1a
    h3
    u5a2b
    j2a1a1a
    D4j+16311
    u5a1+16192
    w3a1
    h7
    h3
    h7a1
    D4b1
    t2b
    B5b4
    u8b1b
    j1c5
    t2c1d1
    h1a1c
    h6b
    h6a1b3
    h6a1a4
    N9a9
    h47a
    h47a
    h1ak1
    t2b+ 152
    h48
    h13a2c1
    h4a1c1a
    h
    u2e1a1
    h
    hv10
    D4e4
    j2a2a2
    t2b31
    h10a1
    k1a4i
    h
    u5a1b1c2
    A16
    j1c3g
    u5a1d2b
    j1c2
    h17a1
    h5e1a
    u4a2
    h13a2b2a
    h4a1
    h11a
    Sefhardi, aschenazi, bulgarian
    die Überlebenden
    https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/E-Y62418/
    https://yfull.com/mtree/H3ap/
    k12b ancient
    Closest:
    3.30708331
    R136_Imperial_Era_Marcellino_&_Pietrophenotype: east med with pontic vibe

  3. #3
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    In the original post you can find the following:

    ""The ratio of east Eurasian major-Hgs inthe commoners is 7.69% contrary to the 19.64% of the elite, besides the elite contains a broad spectrum of these; A, B, C,D, F, G, and Y, while only C and D occur with notable frequencies in the commoners, with single appearance of B."

    Also,

    "
    Three Hgs N, T1 and X,typically widespread both in east and west Eurasia, show much higher ratio in the elite than in commoners: N 11.61% inelite, 3.85% in commoners; T1 11.61% in elite, 2.75% in commoners; X 4.46% in elite and 0.55% in commoners. "

    So, there was clearly admixture. The elites picked up local mtdna as well as the reverse. I got the impression that modern percentages are lower even than this for East Eurasian mtdna, and also for lineages which span both Western and Eastern Eurasia. So, what happened? Were there just not enough of them? Or, did Hungary get flooded with Germanic migrations later on which further diluted the mix.

  4. #4
    Regular Member kingjohn's Avatar
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    To me it looks like (the 8% mongolid mtdna even in commoners)
    That there were some woman in
    The magyar force
    That is very cool


    P.s
    Or it arrived with earlier movements avar, huns

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    In the original post you can find the following:

    ""The ratio of east Eurasian major-Hgs inthe commoners is 7.69% contrary to the 19.64% of the elite, besides the elite contains a broad spectrum of these; A, B, C,D, F, G, and Y, while only C and D occur with notable frequencies in the commoners, with single appearance of B."

    Also,

    "
    Three Hgs N, T1 and X,typically widespread both in east and west Eurasia, show much higher ratio in the elite than in commoners: N 11.61% inelite, 3.85% in commoners; T1 11.61% in elite, 2.75% in commoners; X 4.46% in elite and 0.55% in commoners. "

    So, there was clearly admixture. The elites picked up local mtdna as well as the reverse. I got the impression that modern percentages are lower even than this for East Eurasian mtdna, and also for lineages which span both Western and Eastern Eurasia. So, what happened? Were there just not enough of them? Or, did Hungary get flooded with Germanic migrations later on which further diluted the mix.
    Not just German, but also other Western European and especially Slavic people settled in the Hungarian kingdom. Additionally, a large portion of the Hungarians were practically annihilated in a succession of catastrophies which occured to them, most notably the Mongol and Ottoman invasions.
    Concerning the West vs. East Asian split, not all West Eurasian came with non-Hungarian people, not all East Eurasian from Hungarian people. There are two facts to consider:
    1st the Magyars themselves were a complex mix with different ethnic ingredients. They might have had Turkic, Germanic and Iranian admixture already in the Etelkz.

    2nd the pre-Magyar inhabitents of the Pannonian sphere had East Asian admixture already, especially from the Huns and Avars.

    As a possible 3rd factor, the Magyar rule was divided by tribes and clans it seems to me, so in different regions the representatives of the Magyar alliance could have been different, like more Uralic here, more Iranian-Germanic there, again more Turkic in a nother region. So I would also check for spacial differentiations.

    In any case the simple equation of West Eurasian = local and East Eurasian = brought by Magyars might not work out all the time. Some of the lineages in common between West and East Eurasia might be Iranian-related more than anything.

  6. #6
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    4 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    To me it looks like (the 8% mongolid mtdna even in commoners)
    That there were some woman in
    The magyar force
    That is very cool
    P.s
    Or it arrived with earlier movements avar, huns
    Maybe this paper can help to understand something more:

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-53105-5

    Y-chromosome haplogroups from Hun, Avar and conquering Hungarian period nomadic people of the Carpathian Basin




    Abstract

    Hun, Avar and conquering Hungarian nomadic groups arrived to the Carpathian Basin from the Eurasian Steppes and significantly influenced its political and ethnical landscape, however their origin remains largely unknown. In order to shed light on the genetic affinity of above groups we have determined Y chromosomal haplogroups and autosomal loci, suitable to predict biogeographic ancestry, from 49 individuals, supposed to represent the power/military elit. Haplogroups from the Hun-age are consistent with Xiongnu ancestry of European Huns. Most of the Avar-age individuals carry east Eurasian Y haplogroups typical for modern north-eastern Siberian and Buryat populations and their autosomal loci indicate mostly un-admixed Asian characteristics. In contrast the conquering Hungarians seem to be a recently assembled population incorporating un-admixed European, Asian as well as admixed components. Their heterogeneous paternal and maternal lineages indicate similar supposed phylogeographic origin of males and females, derived from Central-Inner Asian and European Pontic Steppe sources.









  7. #7
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Thanks, Duarte. Much clearer picture based on actual data.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    The conquering part is exaggerated - the usual need for a glorious past. There were just a few, small battles, and most of the locals were left to their own. The new hungarian state was possible due to existing local establishments and trough marriage alliances with the local ruling families.
    The conquerors are estimated to have been around 25k strong. The local population of Pannonia & Carpathian basin at the time was quite big, in the millions.
    It was just a migration, like the ones before that brought those asian genes in the area.

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