Haplogroup G-Z5856 aka G-Z6523 aka G-FGC264

[adnsanchezherrero]

My Y haplogroup is basal G-Z5856* at YFull (sample YF77357), I'm a newbie here and I am not allowed to post links.
So far I am alone at my clade but I've met other North Westerns Iberians (Portuguese, Spaniards or Americans with that origin) who are also G-Z5856, it would be great if some of them wanted to upload their samples at YFull and help define a new Iberian branch of G2a.

Regards
Fernando

[Regio X]

Fernando, nice! Please join G-CTS342 Project, if you haven't done it yet: https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/g-cts342/

G-Z6028 (under G-Z5856) was found in a Mende. Very interesting!
And the G-FGC228 (under G-Z6028) is pretty widespread, despite the TMRCA of just 1100 ybp. Also interesting. A Jewish branch, perhaps?

[adnsanchezherrero]

Regio X I am replying to myself because an error emerges when I try to reply to your post (maybe because I don't have permissions to reply answers with links?)

The answer is no. I don't have the markers for the "Jewish" branch nor the ones or the North African nor those of the Sardinian branch.
As I posted before my sample YF77357 is labeled as basal G-Z5856*. There is surely at least one Iberian branch which is paralled to all those.

The Mende branch is very intriguing, the most probable thing is that it reached there form North Africa, I believe.

[Regio X]

Regio X I am replying to myself because an error emerges when I try to reply to your post (maybe because I don't have permissions to reply answers with links?)

No problem.

The answer is no. I don't have the markers for the "Jewish" branch nor the ones or the North African nor those of the Sardinian branch.
As I posted before my sample YF77357 is labeled as basal G-Z5856*. There is surely at least one Iberian branch which is paralled to all those.

It seems I was not clear. I was actually referring to G-FGC228 when I wondered about a possible Jewish origin.

The Mende branch is very intriguing, the most probable thing is that it reached there form North Africa, I believe.

Agreed.

[adnsanchezherrero]

"It seems I was not clear. I was actually referring to G-FGC228 when I wondered about a possible Jewish origin."
As far as I know the parent clades of G-FGC228 did not emerge from the Levant. Their seem to be Neolithic Central European haplogroups of ENF origin which at certain moment moved West and South and eventually reaching Africa.

The Jewish branch could have emerged both in North Africa or Iberia.

[Regio X]

"It seems I was not clear. I was actually referring to G-FGC228 when I wondered about a possible Jewish origin."
As far as I know the parent clades of G-FGC228 did not emerge from the Levant. Their seem to be Neolithic Central European haplogroups of ENF origin which at certain moment moved West and South and eventually reaching Africa.
The Jewish branch could have emerged both in North Africa or Iberia.

That was the point. "The Jewish branch".
I don't know where some upstream clades originated, but as you know not all "Jewish" subclades originated in Levant anyway. Some could have been just "absorbed" at certain point.
If we check the IDs under G-FGC228, we'll see that at least two are associated to ydd (Eastern Yiddish language). This fact and the way this subclade is spread in such timeframe seem to be suggestive of a Jewish origin.

The Yiddish "is a High German-derived language historically spoken by the Ashkenazi Jews. It originated during the 9th century in Central Europe, providing the nascent Ashkenazi community with a High German-based vernacular fused with elements taken from Hebrew and Aramaic, as well as - later on - Slavic languages, and traces of Romance languages. Yiddish writing uses the Hebrew alphabet. As of the 1990s, there were around 1.5–2 million speakers of Yiddish, mostly Hasidic and Haredi Jews."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yiddish

[dominique_nuit]

My sense, which could be mistaken, is that G2a Z1903 entered Iberia with the Bell Beaker expansion. Z1903 is upstream from Z5856. And there is a new user who I just replied to on the Boatini 2013 thread (also in G2a forum) who is from Sardinia and CTS7045, also upstream from Z5856.

It seems likely to me that Z5856 is indigenous to Spain, but was at some point absorbed by Levantine populations. How they ended up speaking Yiddish is anyone’s guess. Perhaps certain Sephardic groups joined Ashkenazi communities in Central Europe in medieval times. But I doubt Z5856 remained in Central Europe continuously.

Do we have a likely date of origin for Z5856? I believe Z1903 is 4000 years old?

[adnsanchezherrero]

My sense, which could be mistaken, is that G2a Z1903 entered Iberia with the Bell Beaker expansion. Z1903 is upstream from Z5856. And there is a new user who I just replied to on the Boatini 2013 thread (also in G2a forum) who is from Sardinia and CTS7045, also upstream from Z5856.

It seems likely to me that Z5856 is indigenous to Spain, but was at some point absorbed by Levantine populations. How they ended up speaking Yiddish is anyone’s guess. Perhaps certain Sephardic groups joined Ashkenazi communities in Central Europe in medieval times. But I doubt Z5856 remained in Central Europe continuously.

Do we have a likely date of origin for Z5856? I believe Z1903 is 4000 years old?

All that seems very much the case. According to YFull G-Z5859 formed 3900 ybp and its TMRCA would be 3400 ybp.
As Regio X commented the Jewish branch seems to be of Western Mediterranean origin and possibly not too old (Middle Ages).
The most fascinating stuff for me is how this branch succeeded in Northern Africa (most samples are from there) among Amazigh people even reaching Western Africa.

I have no idea what migration from Iberia or Sardinia could have taken this clade to Northern Africa, but must have been in a quite remote time. In Iberia it seems to be confined to the NW quarter which seems to point that it became "cornered" by later migrations.