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Thread: Genetic history of Calabrian Greeks reveals ancient events and long term isolation in

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shahmiri View Post
    https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/Featu...000-2000BC.htm



    First it was believed that just Anatolians migrated from the south of Caucasus, but genetic studies show this region could be also the source of Indo-Iranians, Hellenic and Italic people too. I don't know why some people don't want to believe it was the original land of Indo-European, as David Reich and some other scholars have said.
    You seem to be confused. Italic speakers came from Central Europe and were steppe admixed. Etruscans DID NOT come from Anatolia, as recent ancient samples have proved. They are also steppe admixed. Same is almost certainly true for the Ligures.

    Iran Neo or Caucasus like ancestry was in Central Italy by at least the Neolithic (in this case perhaps as part of the admixture within Anatolian farmers), in the Copper Age (perhaps for the same reason or because of movement of Copper producers from the Balkans), and certainly from the Bronze Age. It would have come from Anatolia either directly or via Greece and the Balkans or both. Then there is Iron Age settlement by the Greeks of Southern Italy and Sicily. Then we get to the Imperial Age. All of this has to be sorted out with more ancient dna.

    What is clear is that Iran Neo started to arrive in the Mediterranean very early. HOWEVER, this has nothing to do with the Italics who are also our ancestors, or the Anatolian farmers who are ancestors of all Europeans to one degree or another.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    You seem to be confused. Italic speakers came from Central Europe and were steppe admixed. Etruscans DID NOT come from Anatolia, as recent ancient samples have proved. They are also steppe admixed. Same is almost certainly true for the Ligures.

    Iran Neo or Caucasus like ancestry was in Central Italy by at least the Neolithic (in this case perhaps as part of the admixture within Anatolian farmers), in the Copper Age (perhaps for the same reason or because of movement of Copper producers from the Balkans), and certainly from the Bronze Age. It would have come from Anatolia either directly or via Greece and the Balkans or both. Then there is Iron Age settlement by the Greeks of Southern Italy and Sicily. Then we get to the Imperial Age. All of this has to be sorted out with more ancient dna.

    What is clear is that Iran Neo started to arrive in the Mediterranean very early. HOWEVER, this has nothing to do with the Italics who are also our ancestors, or the Anatolian farmers who are ancestors of all Europeans to one degree or another.
    Absolutely right, the evidence is clear that the Italics come from central Europe, and Etruscans did not come from Anatolia.

    For the record, my comments were more in relation to the possible origin of the first Indo-European speakers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Interesting study. This PCA shows that Calabria is most similar to the Copper & Bronze Age Anatolia and Mycenaean Greece.



    Did I miss something or did they not provide any Y-DNA data?
    unfortuntely , not as far as i know
    griko samples from salento -had high e-v13
    from what i remember in other paper
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griko_...iesTodayV4.png


    p.s
    could have been interesting to compare to griko samples from calabria ...
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-FGC7391/

    https://yfull.com/mtree/H3ap/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shahmiri View Post


    Northern Italy (Etruscan, Raetic and other non-IE people) from Steppe
    Southern Italy (Greek, Oscan and other IE people) from a non-Steppe CHG/Iran_N source

    Did I get it correctly?
    the oscan group which is mostly the samnites are a branch of the Umbrians , like the Sabines and Sabellic groups are.....all from Umbrian line
    Fathers mtdna ... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ... K1a4p
    Mum paternal line ... R1b-S8172
    Grandmum paternal side ... I1-Y33791
    Wife paternal line ... R1a-Z282

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    unfortuntely , not as far as i know
    griko samples from salento -had high e-v13
    from what i remember in other paper
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griko_...iesTodayV4.png
    it could be Medieval, though sometimes I can see Albania and the sea looks like a big lake, ... and if I see it, the Albanians must see Salento too.
    ... It's only 45 miles away.



    https://bari.repubblica.it/cronaca/2...i-159776344/1/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    it could be Medieval, though sometimes I can see Albania and the sea looks like a big lake, ... and if I see it, the Albanians must see Salento too.
    ... It's only 45 miles away.



    https://bari.repubblica.it/cronaca/2...i-159776344/1/

    amazingly beautifull

    here GS ( greek salento sample number 82 )
    besides e-v13 they also had high r1a-m17*
    and r1b -m412* haplogroups


    https://i.imgur.com/lcWW0y1.png

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shahmiri View Post
    I have searched about it several times but never found anything, why this very important thing has not been mention in this study and other studies about Sicily, Mycenaeans and etc?
    Why do we see this map:

    Do you believe Central Italy was the source of Iranian-related ancestry in Bronze Age Europe?
    This is unrelated to the Neolithic Iran_N-like ancestry found in central Italy. Also, this came via intermediary sources with CHG, not directly from Iran. But more importantly, it has nothing to do with Italic culture.
    Last edited by Jovialis; 09-02-21 at 16:45.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    amazingly beautifull

    here GS ( greek salento sample number 82 )
    besides e-v13 they also had high r1a-m17*
    and r1b -m412* haplogroups


    https://i.imgur.com/lcWW0y1.png
    I don't think I'm a Griko, but who knows for sure.
    I’m a y T-SK1480 (same as Torzio).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shahmiri View Post
    I have searched about it several times but never found anything,
    Antonio M. et al 2019 clearly shows Iran_N in the neolithic, in central Italy.



    The Neolithic transition

    The first major ancestry shift in the time series occurred between 7000 and 6000 BCE, coinciding with the transition to farming and introduction of domesticates including wheat, barley, pulses, sheep, and cattle into Italy (Fig. 2) (6, 16).
    Similar to early farmers from other parts of Europe, Neolithic individuals from central Italy project near Anatolian farmers in PCA (13, 14, 1719) (Fig. 2A). However, ADMIXTURE reveals that, in addition to ancestry from northwestern Anatolia farmers, all of the Neolithic individuals that we studied carry a small amount of another component that is found at high levels in Neolithic Iranian farmers and Caucasus hunter-gatherers (CHG) (Fig. 2B and fig. S9). This contrasts with contemporaneous central European and Iberian populations who carry farmer ancestry predominantly from northwestern Anatolia (fig. S12). Furthermore, qpAdm modeling suggests that Neolithic Italian farmers can be modeled as a two-way mixture of ~5% local hunter-gatherer ancestry and ~95% ancestry of Neolithic farmers from central Anatolia or northern Greece (table S7), who also carry additional CHG (or Neolithic Iranian) ancestry (fig. S12) (14). These findings point to different or additional source populations involved in the Neolithic transition in Italy compared to central and western Europe.
    During the late Neolithic and Copper Age, there is a small, gradual rebound of WHG ancestry (Fig. 2B and fig. S24), mirroring findings from ancient DNA studies of other European populations from these periods (10, 13, 18, 20). This may reflect admixture with communities that had high levels of WHG ancestry persisting into the Neolithic, locally or in neighboring regions (tables S9 to S11).

    https://science.sciencemag.org/content/366/6466/708

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shahmiri View Post
    Do you mean this small amount of admixture in Anatolian ancestry?
    What difference does it make? We know there have been subsequent migrations since the Neolithic, which should be obvious. There was most likely a cline with more of it the further south you go. Also, if you actually read the damn book by David Reich, he shows it was also in Greece_N. These were some of the intermediary populations trickling into Italy, bring higher levels of CHG as time went on.



    Also, how does it lend any credence to your frankly ignorant argument?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Antonio M. et al 2019 clearly shows Iran_N in the neolithic, in central Italy.

    Indeed. Some Iran Neo-related ancestry was in Barcin already. The arrival of this ancestry into Anatolia at AAF period is well evidenced in Feldman et al.

    Late Pleistocene human genome suggests a local origin for the first farmers of central Anatolia
    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-019-09209-7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shahmiri View Post
    The difference is that we read other things in this study:



    Iran_N/CHG admixture in Anatolian Neolithic ancestry has been considered but this study talks about further ancestry from Iran_N/CHG-related source.
    Excuse me, but have you been following this thread?

    Clearly not, or you would know we've been talking about that throughout the thread. There's NOTHING, however, to indicate a migration DIRECTLY from Iran or the Caucasus. It arrived via intermediaries, and therefore MIXED.
    Perhaps it would be wise to read a thread before commenting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I found this old post, which shows the Phoenician sample, which is largely "Morocco_LN" in that modeling. But if you see the alternative modeling, the Morocco_LN is largely replaced by what appears to be Anatolian_N.

    Yes, indeed. On the other hand some of the Phoenicians (that would be more correct to call them in this case Punic) were actually assimilated Sardinian-Nuragics or Iberians.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    In regards to not totally placing blind trust in every single genetic study, and the case of Morrocco_LN modeling, we do indeed agree. But as for the Iran_N being present, in Sardinia, and Northern Italy, I don't see why it is out of the realm of possibility. The pulse of CHG/IN in the BA, is largely being accepted by the leading geneticists. The fact that the Mycenaeans had it, that the Anatolian in the BA had it, and the discovery of it in the Western Mediterranean, to me, is too compelling to dismiss, in my opinion. It has been found even in central Italy since the Neolithic. The Etruscans, and Latini had it at comparable levels to Steppe, which distinguished them from their contemporaries to the north. I think that was something that was neglected to be mentioned in the Antonio paper, which seemed more focused on putting the spotlight on inconsequential imperial era immigrants that didn't leave a lasting impact. Nevertheless, the hard data, which it provided, was more valuable, than the narrative it was trying to spin.

    I haven't said that CHG/Iran_N doesn't exist in Italy, I've said that it's inflated in Sarno's paper. However, it is of little importance, other studies will come out soon that may confirm Sarno's values or give other results.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shahmiri View Post
    I have read this thread and other ones, like "Moots: Ancient Rome Paper", and I know you have said several times that Iran_N/CHG ancestry in Italy relates to the Neolithic migrations from Anatolia, but the main point is that this ancestry was increased in the South of Italy in the Bronze age from a non-Steppe CHG/Iran_N source, so there were other migrations through Anatolia in the Bronze Age too, is it true?
    READ the thread. Of course there were.

    How many times do I and others have to repeat ourselves? The Mycenaeans got it from somewhere after all.

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    So how long before these samples are incorporated in the Dodecad files so that we can make our own comparisons between the Calabria Gricos and the Salentine Grikos and modern and ancient Greeks?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    So how long before these samples are incorporated in the Dodecad files so that we can make our own comparisons between the Calabria Gricos and the Salentine Grikos and modern and ancient Greeks?
    From my experience, it is pretty hard to obtain modern DNA. Most of the ones that are publicly available, must be approved before use. They are utilized more for other papers to use.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Interesting study. This PCA shows that Calabria is most similar to the Copper & Bronze Age Anatolia and Mycenaean Greece.



    Did I miss something or did they not provide any Y-DNA data?
    The report is basically an extension of Stefania previous report and that also failed to provide ydna

    https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/210828126.pdf

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    Here is a facial reconstruction of a Greek from Magna Graecia

    Pre-Socratic Greek philosopher Parmenides of Elea (c. 515 BC-post-450 BC), by Alessandro Tomasi:



    Elea was an Ionic-speaking Greek colony in what is now southern Campania:


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    Im happy to see this! It strengthens the idea that the extra near eastern affinity found in the south is Caucasus or iranian based.
    mmmmmmmmm dooouuughhhnuuuutz

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    I think you are missing the point. The Iranian Farmers and the Caucasus Hunter Gatherers are not Iranians or Caucasians, they are ancient samples found from places called now the Caucasus and Iran and and may have given little ancestry to modern Caucasian groups or Iranian populations. Having affinities is not conclusive of actual ancestry. Also the farmers that went to Europe had livestock that did not originate in Anatolia but much further east. So how did they Anatolian farmers get their sheep and goats? By trading with other Neolithics, of course. And they mixed with each other, that is what humans usually do.

    In my Southern European opinion, all these studies are biased by the geneticists' paradigms of what is indigenous, what is European, what is Middle Eastern, and Southern Europeans are always excluded from being the European crowd because they have a lower ancestry from the Eurasian Steppes, and greater Neolithic farmer ancestry. Look at David Reich's clines of European and Near Eastern Ancestry, most Europeans outside the Northern, Western and Central zones are excluded because of the so called extra Near Eastern ancestry. Anyway that is my two cents worth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozzie View Post
    I think you are missing the point. The Iranian Farmers and the Caucasus Hunter Gatherers are not Iranians or Caucasians, they are ancient samples found from places called now the Caucasus and Iran and and may have given little ancestry to modern Caucasian groups or Iranian populations. Having affinities is not conclusive of actual ancestry. Also the farmers that went to Europe had livestock that did not originate in Anatolia but much further east. So how did they Anatolian farmers get their sheep and goats? By trading with other Neolithics, of course. And they mixed with each other, that is what humans usually do.

    In my Southern European opinion, all these studies are biased by the geneticists' paradigms of what is indigenous, what is European, what is Middle Eastern, and Southern Europeans are always excluded from being the European crowd because they have a lower ancestry from the Eurasian Steppes, and greater Neolithic farmer ancestry. Look at David Reich's clines of European and Near Eastern Ancestry, most Europeans outside the Northern, Western and Central zones are excluded because of the so called extra Near Eastern ancestry. Anyway that is my two cents worth.
    I agree with you except for the fact that Modern Iranians and Caucasians do indeed have a lot of Iran Neo ancestry, along with Anatolian farmer. The gene flow went both ways. The fact is that a wave of that ancestry spread into Anatolia and mixed with the Anatolian farmers living there. Perhaps through Anatolians it spread south into the Levant, eventually even reaching North Africa. It definitely spread into the Central and Western Mediterranean, again, as I've said over and over again, as an admixed group. There is absolutely no evidence from history of a movement to Italy or Greece, for that matter, from the Caucasus itself.

    In terms of Italy in, say, the Bronze and Iron Age, I'm not sure if all of it came via the Greeks or if some of it came directly from Anatolia itself. (It certainly didn't go to Etruria, as the Etruscans clearly came from Central Europe, which 90% of the internet said was fantasy when I and a few others insisted on it here and on anthrogenica; one of the many things they and eurogenes got wrong about Southern Europe.) In isolated places like southern and southwestern Sardinia in the Iron Age, some of it may have come with Phoenicians. Perhaps a bit arrived in the same way in Northwestern Sicily. The rest of Sicily and the mainland are different.

    The Moots paper, other than providing the ancient samples, tends to confuse rather than clarify the issue of what happened in Imperial Age. Once we get Southern Italian samples and Greek samples from the Iron Age, we'll know better how much Iran Neo/CHG, for example, arrived in Italy with the Greeks and then moved northward.

    The problem with Moots is that it assumes every single burial sample is a long term resident of Rome, i.e. Roman or at least Italian. That's manifestly a simplification. Not every person who "looks" like a Levantine or even an Anatolian on a PCA would have become a long time settler whose progeny contributed to the local genomes. We can see that with some of the samples from the post Imperial period whom we've analyzed and who are manifestly northern European visitors to Rome. Had they done some isotopic testing we might have a clearer idea of who was "local" and who was not. Added to all this, in the period in question, some Romans still practiced cremation, so the sample is not representative.

    Then, there's the question of the big demographic change even earlier than the end of the Empire. Rome was gradually abandoned as the seat of Empire. Everything shifted either to Constantinople or to Northern Italy. That's why the "tail to the east" ended. The traders left.

    There is indeed also the period of the Germanic invasions. The problem with attributing much of the change to them, the popular back to the beginning scenario particularly in the north, is that every Germanic sample we've found is either I1 or R1b-U106. I can't believe that a paper purporting to deal with Italian genetics totally ignore yDna. The one thing it's really good for is tracking migrations. There's far too little of either, even in the Veneto, much less in Lazio, to account for a change from people with almost no steppe to people with 30% steppe. It doesn't matter how small the "native" population might have been; the "Germanic" ydna would have to be higher than it is. Not to mention that the Langobards numbered around 100,000 people even according to their own scribes, and the Goths were even smaller in number, mimicking what happened in Hungary.

    I really hope the Reich Lab (and Razib Khan in his summary) doesn't make these kind of elementary errors.

    Now, if someone shows the Germanics carried a lot of R1b U152 then that's a different story.

    I'd also like to see samples from the Italian countryside and mountains from the Late Imperial and Post Imperial Era. When cities collapse, people from the periphery move down and repopulate them.

    We need more data.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I agree with you except for the fact that Modern Iranians and Caucasians do indeed have a lot of Iran Neo ancestry, along with Anatolian farmer. The gene flow went both ways. The fact is that a wave of that ancestry spread into Anatolia and mixed with the Anatolian farmers living there. Perhaps through Anatolians it spread south into the Levant, eventually even reaching North Africa. It definitely spread into the Central and Western Mediterranean, again, as I've said over and over again, as an admixed group. There is absolutely no evidence from history of a movement to Italy or Greece, for that matter, from the Caucasus itself.

    In terms of Italy in, say, the Bronze and Iron Age, I'm not sure if all of it came via the Greeks or if some of it came directly from Anatolia itself. (It certainly didn't go to Etruria, as the Etruscans clearly came from Central Europe, which 90% of the internet said was fantasy when I and a few others insisted on it here and on anthrogenica; one of the many things they and eurogenes got wrong about Southern Europe.) In isolated places like southern and southwestern Sardinia in the Iron Age, some of it may have come with Phoenicians. Perhaps a bit arrived in the same way in Northwestern Sicily. The rest of Sicily and the mainland are different.

    The Moots paper, other than providing the ancient samples, tends to confuse rather than clarify the issue of what happened in Imperial Age. Once we get Southern Italian samples and Greek samples from the Iron Age, we'll know better how much Iran Neo/CHG, for example, arrived in Italy with the Greeks and then moved northward.

    The problem with Moots is that it assumes every single burial sample is a long term resident of Rome, i.e. Roman or at least Italian. That's manifestly a simplification. Not every person who "looks" like a Levantine or even an Anatolian on a PCA would have become a long time settler whose progeny contributed to the local genomes. We can see that with some of the samples from the post Imperial period whom we've analyzed and who are manifestly northern European visitors to Rome. Had they done some isotopic testing we might have a clearer idea of who was "local" and who was not. Added to all this, in the period in question, some Romans still practiced cremation, so the sample is not representative.

    Then, there's the question of the big demographic change even earlier than the end of the Empire. Rome was gradually abandoned as the seat of Empire. Everything shifted either to Constantinople or to Northern Italy. That's why the "tail to the east" ended. The traders left.

    There is indeed also the period of the Germanic invasions. The problem with attributing much of the change to them, the popular back to the beginning scenario particularly in the north, is that every Germanic sample we've found is either I1 or R1b-U106. I can't believe that a paper purporting to deal with Italian genetics totally ignore yDna. The one thing it's really good for is tracking migrations. There's far too little of either, even in the Veneto, much less in Lazio, to account for a change from people with almost no steppe to people with 30% steppe. It doesn't matter how small the "native" population might have been; the "Germanic" ydna would have to be higher than it is. Not to mention that the Langobards numbered around 100,000 people even according to their own scribes, and the Goths were even smaller in number, mimicking what happened in Hungary.

    I really hope the Reich Lab (and Razib Khan in his summary) doesn't make these kind of elementary errors.

    Now, if someone shows the Germanics carried a lot of R1b U152 then that's a different story.

    I'd also like to see samples from the Italian countryside and mountains from the Late Imperial and Post Imperial Era. When cities collapse, people from the periphery move down and repopulate them.

    We need more data.
    I absolutely agree, the Moots paper, and many others are a mine field of fudged narratives. After reading the paper, I tend to discard the oversimplified explanation, that give the wrong impression, and just analyze the hard data, coming to my own conclusions. It seems that some of these authors are chasing after fantasies, rather than going by what the evidence is strictly showing. TBH, It is almost as if that paper was tailored to be read by journalists, for exposure. No matter, because even the authors had to concede that the modeling should not be taken seriously. Yet, that seems to be lost on some people, unfortunately.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Here is a facial reconstruction of a Greek from Magna Graecia

    Pre-Socratic Greek philosopher Parmenides of Elea (c. 515 BC-post-450 BC), by Alessandro Tomasi:



    Elea was an Ionic-speaking Greek colony in what is now southern Campania:

    Parmenides could fit in modern Southern Italy.


    Anyone that still denies the Ancient Greeks were not very similar to Southern Italians, is just fooling themselves.

  24. #99
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    ^^I think it could be said that Greco-Roman civilization, is not only a cultural synthesis, but an ethnic one as well. IMHO The genetic-cline in Italy was primarily formed by the melding of ancient Italic (& Etruscan) and Greek peoples. The rebirth of this high civilization, had become the beacon of ambition, and stirred the hearts of many Italian patriots, thinkers, and artists, of the subsequent eras. In their hearts they knew they were connected to these people by blood.

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    I should have been more specific. All the ancients were very divergent from each other, WHG, EHG, CCG, Anatolian farmers, Levantine farmers, Iranian farmers, and so on, more divergent from each other than a general West Eurasian European is from a general East Eurasian. Modern populations in West Eurasia are very genetically close to each other, Europeans, Near Easterners, West Asians, North Africans are much closer to each other than to those Ancients except when you get to the Bronze Age.

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