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Thread: Genetic history of Calabrian Greeks reveals ancient events and long term isolation in

  1. #101
    Regular Member Cato's Avatar
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    Northern Apulia, Northern Basilicata, Benevento area and Abruzzo were not colonized by Greeks but if I m not wrong they cluster with Southern Greeks, and Aegean islanders. What's the possible explanation?

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    The trouble with that PCA diagram Maciamo posted from the study is it is really disingenuous. They used a limited number of modern reference samples, and in terms of DNA studies, old hoary ones. Example, the Adeghe, the 8 Tuscans (TSI), the 13 Bergamo Italians and so on. Those samples come from the beginning of those type of dna studies and there are other more up-to-date reference samples. The TSI samples are different from a much larger later Tuscan reference sample, which shows using small number can be unrepresentative of the whole. Also the Adeghe come from Northern part of the Caucasus which is not the Mediterranean just because the Greeks colonized all the Black Sea coast does not make it the Mediterranean, and ancient North Caucasians were more like modern Armenians and Georgians i.e not effected by Russian and Ukrainian admixture. It is better to have a PCA of all Europeans, all Near Easterners (not just the boring Druze, and Palestinians) and all the West Asians. The smaller samples draws the groups closer to each other than in reality.

    I consider this study flawed for those reasons, and disingenuous.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cato View Post
    Northern Apulia, Northern Basilicata, Benevento area and Abruzzo were not colonized by Greeks but if I m not wrong they cluster with Southern Greeks, and Aegean islanders. What's the possible explanation?

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    These people certainly moved around when Italy was unified under the Romans, I doubt they stayed fixed in one place according to where their colonies were.

    But also, it is likely that the native population, prior to the arrival of the Greeks, were already very Greek-like. Due to prehistoric migrations from the southern Balkans. These people were also relatively high in CHG.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cato View Post
    Northern Apulia, Northern Basilicata, Benevento area and Abruzzo were not colonized by Greeks but if I m not wrong they cluster with Southern Greeks, and Aegean islanders. What's the possible explanation?

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    Also, Sicilians are parallel to Southern Greeks, and Aegean Islanders, to the "west" of them.


    Apulia, Basilicata, Benevento area and Abruzzo are to the "North" and "West" of them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cato View Post
    Northern Apulia, Northern Basilicata, Benevento area and Abruzzo were not colonized by Greeks but if I m not wrong they cluster with Southern Greeks, and Aegean islanders. What's the possible explanation?

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    and neither was Lucania and Bruttian areas in southern Italy had any Greeks ...................these tribes branched out from southern samnite groups whose origins are umbrian

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucania

    The Greeks that came to stay in itlay where mostly corinthian Greeks with their powerful fleet
    Fathers mtdna ... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ... K1a4p
    Mum paternal line ... R1b-S8172
    Grandmum paternal side ... I1-Y33791
    Wife paternal line ... R1a-Z282

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    and neither was Lucania and Bruttian areas in southern Italy had any Greeks ...................these tribes branched out from southern samnite groups whose origins are umbrian
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucania
    The Greeks that came to stay in itlay where mostly corinthian Greeks with their powerful fleet
    The DNA and Isotopic study on imperial Vagnari stated that the locals, found in the Roman estate were natives to the region. Nevertheless, even if all of these tribes remained in place during that time, they were likely scrambled during the fall of the Roman Empire and resettlement of cities and towns. Greek-like people were all over the Empire, even in Collegno in Late Antiquity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Adriatic View Post
    I find very interesting to see how Abruzzo and Molise have a stronger component "mediana" (purple) than what I would have initially thought. Like if they cluster in the middle between Lazio and Campania-Puglia-Lucania. It's one of the first papers that I have read and probably will need to read again and again to be sure that I really got it right.
    You could model them as half-Barese/half-Umbrian, according to this paper.

    The purple, brown, and yellow components are all considered Southern Italian genetically, in that paper. Which is also consistent with AncestryDNA's broad component for Southern Italians.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Adriatic View Post
    Interesting!

    I don't know why I remember the purple as southern-central vs the 'tuscan' as northern-central but I may be wrong.
    That's more or less in line with how we consider these areas in Italy (centro-sud at least)
    Here is the excerpt from the paper:

    A sharp north-south division in cluster distribution was detected, the separation between northern and southern areas being shifted north along the peninsula (Fig. 1B) (12). The reported structure dismissed the possibility that the Central Italian populations differentiated from the Northern and Southern Italian groups (Fig. 1A) (13). Individuals from Central Italy were, in fact, assigned mostly to the Southern Italian clusters, except for samples from Tuscany, which grouped instead with the Northern Italian clusters (Fig. 1, A and B) (12). Contrary to previous results, no outliers were detected among the Northern Italian clusters (12).

    https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/5/9/eaaw3492
    Tuscans are Northerners, the rest of Central Italy is technically Southern.


    There is a cline however, central Italy is where Northern Italian and Southern Italian-like DNA intersect. So you could say one is North-Central, and the other is South-Central. But the center is not a cluster, unto itself according to Raveane et al. 2018.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Here is the excerpt from the paper:



    Tuscans are Northerners, the rest of Central Italy is technically Southern.


    There is a cline however, central Italy is where Northern Italian and Southern Italian-like DNA intersect. So you could say one is North-Central, and the other is South-Central. But the center is not a cluster, unto itself according to Raveane et al. 2018.

    going by this ............the Umbrians should be classified with the Tuscans and whatever group they are

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    going by this ............the Umbrians should be classified with the Tuscans and whatever group they are

    As Jovialis explained, those are clusters, it has nothing to do with how one should be classified.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    As Jovialis explained, those are clusters, it has nothing to do with how one should be classified.
    ok...we all know that the Samnites, Sabellics, Sabines and a few other ancient tribes come via Umbrian stock .................why classify these as Southern when they should be classified Central ?
    Lucania another group that came via samnites

    There is no Greek association

    I think we are misleading people by calling them southern instead of central

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    ok...we all know that the Samnites, Sabellics, Sabines and a few other ancient tribes come via Umbrian stock .................why classify these as Southern when they should be classified Central ?
    Lucania another group that came via samnites

    There is no Greek association

    I think we are misleading people by calling them southern instead of central
    The map from Raveane et al. 2018 represents modern Italians, not Iron age Italics. As far as I know, we don't know where those particular tribes would end up genetically. Probably similar to Latini, I would guess. Maybe those groups may have been a bit different, IDK.


    If you look at the composition of samples found in central Italy during the medieval era, you see a lot of C6 i.e. Mediterranean Southern Italian-like samples, along with C7. So either during the Roman Unification of Italy, or the resettlement of those areas; those areas became Southern Italian-like. I would bet my bottom dollar, it has something to do with the Greek population in the south and/or pre-Italic southerners who may have also been greek-like.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Interesting study. This PCA shows that Calabria is most similar to the Copper & Bronze Age Anatolia and Mycenaean Greece.



    Did I miss something or did they not provide any Y-DNA data?
    Indeed, it can be said for all Southern Italians. Here it is from the following excerpt:

    Consistently with previous results3,27, the PCA performed by projecting ancient samples onto the modern genetic variation reveals specific patterns of population relationships (Suppl. Figure S8). In fact, all the Southern Italian groups, besides showing a general high affinity with Anatolian and European Neolithic farmers, cluster also closely with the Chalcolithic and Bronze Age samples from Anatolian and Aegean (Minoan and Mycenaean) populations.
    I recall, some posters here and from other forums tried to doubt it as a mere coincidence on the PCA. It is nice to see it said here in the study, and that the doubters were wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    The map from Raveane et al. 2018 represents modern Italians, not Iron age Italics. As far as I know, we don't know where those particular tribes would end up genetically. Probably similar to Latini, I would guess. Maybe those groups may have been a bit different, IDK.


    If you look at the composition of samples found in central Italy during the medieval era, you see a lot of C6 i.e. Mediterranean Southern Italian-like samples, along with C7. So either during the Roman Unification of Italy, or the resettlement of those areas; those areas became Southern Italian-like. I would bet my bottom dollar, it has something to do with the Greek population in the south and/or pre-Italic southerners who may have also been greek-like.
    If you are talking about medieval period, then the greek influence in the south is minimum at best............yes, there was some albanian influence after 1500 in the kingdom of Naples as they ( Naples ) became a haven for fleeing albanians from the ottomans

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    If you are talking about medieval period, then the greek influence in the south is minimum at best............yes, there was some albanian influence after 1500 in the kingdom of Naples as they ( Naples ) became a haven for fleeing albanians from the ottomans
    I am not speaking particularly about Medieval Greeks, though I am sure they had some influence too. Rather, I am talking about Greeks from Magna Grecia, who have lived in Italy from before the Roman Unification of Italy, and/or Pre-Italic Greek-like Southern Italians. Who ever it was, there is a reason why 60% of the Medieval Central Italians samples fall into the C6 Southern Italian-like cluster:


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    You could model them as half-Barese/half-Umbrian, according to this paper.

    The purple, brown, and yellow components are all considered Southern Italian genetically, in that paper. Which is also consistent with AncestryDNA's broad component for Southern Italians.


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    I am indifferent to the ethnogenesis of particular Europeans, I am only interested in the general European genetic tapestry.

    I have problems with a lot of papers on dna and genetics. In that Stanford University, Jonathan Pritchard, paper I feel the paper is mixing apples with oranges. North Africans, Europeans, East Mediterraneans (which is an odd category) and Mediterraneans are all people who were formed in the various periods and are admixed. Think about the Cypriots, Lebanese and Anatolian Turks (the East Mediterranean?), they themselves are admixed, some more recently than others (the Turks), but essentially they are all in the Near Eastern group, and share a lot of ancestry with other Near Eastern groups. Europeans in the report only came into existence in the Bronze Age, thanks to the Yamnaya folk, and are admixed. North Africans of today are not the North Africans before the Islamic push, similar but not identical. I consider the East Mediterranean an artifact, it is just Near Eastern groups closer to Europe. In the report they refer to Bronze Age Iranians, those people are not identical with Iranian farmers of the West Asian Neolithic.

    Also the researcher should use graphs, images based on the first three greatest dimensions to produce a 3D image. Why so? Because certain national/ethnic groups are not as close as they appear on two dimensions. Example: the Ashkenazi Jews on 3D are not close to Sicilians, Southern Italians, including Calabrians, and Greeks as they appear on two dimensions. The Basques and Sardinians (and Finnic speaking peoples) are quite removed from other Europeans. In the diagram, they say that the people of the Imperial Age are essentially the same as modern Mediterranean people. So did those Imperial Age Romans decamp Latium and head south around the Mediterrranean?

    Anyway that is my thoughts on the paper.

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