Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 6 of 7 FirstFirst ... 4567 LastLast
Results 126 to 150 of 165

Thread: Genetic history of Calabrian Greeks reveals ancient events and long term isolation in

  1. #126
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    6,778

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1b2a2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b7

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    Modern samples have a lot of regulations for use, even if they are "public data".

  2. #127
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    10-05-19
    Posts
    1,227

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2-M223
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H2A3

    Ethnic group
    Italian-Sicily-South
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Modern samples have a lot of regulations for use, even if they are "public data".
    Ok, thanks. I can understand the reason for that given the people are still alive!! Makes sense.

  3. #128
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    6,778

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1b2a2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b7

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    My official position on Southern Italians, consistent with Sarno et al. 2021's hypothesis:

    Genetic continuity with Neolithic/post-Neolithic Mediterranean groups and southern Italians; only re-enforced by subsequent historical events.
    My official position on the steppe is also the same as the academic consensus. IMHO Southern Italians could be a key group in verifying what the professionals believe


  4. #129
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    14-10-21
    Posts
    198

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G2a-Z1903>>PF6863
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV16

    Ethnic group
    Italian, English, Irish
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    My official position on the steppe is also the same as the academic consensus. IMHO Southern Italians could be a key group in verifying what the professionals believe
    I agree with the thesis about Southern Italians having genetic continuity with Neolithic & post-Neolithic populations spanning Southern Balkans, Anatolia, and Caucasus, reinforced by Bronze Age and post-Bronze Age movements across the same corridors --->>> but how would this fact, if established, help verify the academic consensus on Steppe ancestry?

  5. #130
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    6,778

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1b2a2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b7

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    How can HGs invade a mountainous plateau?

  6. #131
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    6,778

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1b2a2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b7

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Malaparte View Post
    I agree with the thesis about Southern Italians having genetic continuity with Neolithic & post-Neolithic populations spanning Southern Balkans, Anatolia, and Caucasus, reinforced by Bronze Age and post-Bronze Age movements across the same corridors --->>> but how would this fact, if established, help verify the academic consensus on Steppe ancestry?
    Last comment was me musing

    But to address your comment, I took it from eurogenes.

  7. #132
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    14-10-21
    Posts
    198

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G2a-Z1903>>PF6863
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV16

    Ethnic group
    Italian, English, Irish
    Country: United States



    You're losing me. How can HGs invade the high ground held by Iranian farmers? Most likely, they could not. Therefore, the admixture between Iranian farmers and EHG probably took place to the north, on the Pontic Steppe. Is this what you are implying? In which case, the motive force for the twin Bronze Age movements westward came from a single source, the Iranian highland farmers?

  8. #133
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    20,518


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 members found this post helpful.
    I have discussed over and over again on this site the hypothesis that people with ancestry from the Hunter-Gatherers of the Caucasus migrated into Europe in a pincer movement; one group admixed with EHG moving across the steppe, and one admixed with Anatolia Neolithic moving south and then across Anatolia into the Aegean and then further west all the way into Spain.

    I've always felt that in a way it's a validation of Dienekes' old idea of the Caucasus as the "mother of nations".

    You have to remember that the Iranian Neolithic samples and the CHG are almost indistinguishable, which is why academics who don't get the hives thinking Indo-Europeans might have ancestry in any way related to Iranians, call the admixture CHG/Iranian Neolithic when it appears in Europe.



    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  9. #134
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    14-10-21
    Posts
    198

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G2a-Z1903>>PF6863
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV16

    Ethnic group
    Italian, English, Irish
    Country: United States



    So how does the one verify the other? That is, Jovialis states that the transmission of CHG across Anatolia and into Southern Italy, starting in the Neolithic and bolstered by subsequent migrations down their ages, could be used to verify the consensus theory that Iranian farmers admixed with EHG on the Steppe? Why are these not independent propositions?

    Or might there be a way to compare, with precision, the CHG components in Southern Italians with the alleged CHG/IranNeo in Steppe samples?

  10. #135
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    6,778

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1b2a2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b7

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Malaparte View Post
    You're losing me. How can HGs invade the high ground held by Iranian farmers? Most likely, they could not. Therefore, the admixture between Iranian farmers and EHG probably took place to the north, on the Pontic Steppe. Is this what you are implying? In which case, the motive force for the twin Bronze Age movements westward came from a single source, the Iranian highland farmers?
    That was me thinking out loud, it was a cross-post. It wasn't a reply to your post. Sorry for the miscommunication.

    I am busy at the moment, and can't properly respond

  11. #136
    Regular Member blevins13's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-10-16
    Location
    Tirana
    Age
    46
    Posts
    990

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-Z2103>BY611
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H7i1

    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    It looks like my assumptions going back to Raveane et al 2018 were correct:

    Which assumptions were correct?


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

  12. #137
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    6,778

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1b2a2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b7

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States


  13. #138
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    6,778

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1b2a2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b7

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Malaparte View Post
    So how does the one verify the other? That is, Jovialis states that the transmission of CHG across Anatolia and into Southern Italy, starting in the Neolithic and bolstered by subsequent migrations down their ages, could be used to verify the consensus theory that Iranian farmers admixed with EHG on the Steppe? Why are these not independent propositions?

    Or might there be a way to compare, with precision, the CHG components in Southern Italians with the alleged CHG/IranNeo in Steppe samples?
    They could be independent, but I was actually thinking about how David Reich used the Hittites as his basis to say the PIE homeland could be in Armenia or south of the Caucasus. His reasoning was due to the fact that they didn't have EHG, (they're mostly Anatolian_N + CHG). The pulse of CHG/IN is suggested by Raveane et al. 2018 to have occurred in the EBA. I wonder if this could be somehow related. I also wonder if it could be related to the non-steppe CHG in Myceneans and Minoans.

  14. #139
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    6,778

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1b2a2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b7

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    I think past I have also made a thread on how the dispersal of the sons of Noah in the region of the Ararat mountains could be a allegory for the pulse of CHG. Basically, this could have been spoken of for thousands of years, but DNA is finally bringing it to light.

  15. #140
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    6,778

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1b2a2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b7

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I think past I have also made a thread on how the dispersal of the sons of Noah in the region of the Ararat mountains could be a allegory for the pulse of CHG. Basically, this could have been spoken of for thousands of years, but DNA is finally bringing it to light.
    Japheth /ˈdʒeɪfɛθ/ (Hebrew: יֶפֶת‎ Yép̄eṯ, in pausa יָפֶת‎ Yā́p̄eṯ; Greek: Ἰάφεθ Iápheth; Latin: Iafeth, Iapheth, Iaphethus, Iapetus) is one of the three sons of Noah in the Book of Genesis, in which he plays a role in the story of Noah's drunkenness and the curse of Ham, and subsequently in the Table of Nations as the ancestor of the peoples of the Aegean Sea, Anatolia, and elsewhere.[1] In medieval and early modern European tradition he was considered to be the progenitor of the European peoples,[2][3][4] while Islamic traditions also include the Chinese people among his descendants.[5]
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japheth

  16. #141
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    6,778

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1b2a2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b7

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    Shem was probably the "son" whose decedent conquered and mixed with Neolithic/Chalcolithic levantines. There's huge CHG turn over in the BA in the middle east.

    Ham of course is the "son" whose decedent's were considered to be the progenitors of blacks. But perhaps they're CHG who were part of the back to Africa Eurasian migrations.

  17. #142
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    6,778

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1b2a2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b7

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Japheth /ˈdʒeɪfɛθ/ (Hebrew: יֶפֶת‎ Yép̄eṯ, in pausa יָפֶת‎ Yā́p̄eṯ; Greek: Ἰάφεθ Iápheth; Latin: Iafeth, Iapheth, Iaphethus, Iapetus) is one of the three sons of Noah in the Book of Genesis, in which he plays a role in the story of Noah's drunkenness and the curse of Ham, and subsequently in the Table of Nations as the ancestor of the peoples of the Aegean Sea, Anatolia, and elsewhere.[1] In medieval and early modern European tradition he was considered to be the progenitor of the European peoples,[2][3][4] while Islamic traditions also include the Chinese people among his descendants.[5]
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japheth

  18. #143
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    6,778

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1b2a2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b7

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    ^^I'm kind of surprised that more people haven't noticed the connections. Perhaps it is because a lot of people into genetics aren't very keen on the bible. Which is a shame, because it provides a lot of important context to the ancient world. (Doesn't matter if you believe in God, or not)

  19. #144
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    14-10-21
    Posts
    198

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G2a-Z1903>>PF6863
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV16

    Ethnic group
    Italian, English, Irish
    Country: United States



    1 members found this post helpful.
    It would be great to see European (and Middle Eastern) populations compared not on the basis of EEF vs. WHG vs Steppe, but rather the components that existed in 10,000 BC

    As for Jaspheth, Shem & Ham, it is interesting . . . . But surely we don't want to say that the Aeneid speaks to the Anatolian pulse in Italians

  20. #145
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    14-10-21
    Posts
    198

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G2a-Z1903>>PF6863
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV16

    Ethnic group
    Italian, English, Irish
    Country: United States



    Why was the Caucasus region the seeming cradle of nations? Yes, it was a refugium during the Last Glacial Maxium, but it wasn't the only refugium, and it takes 8000 years to get from 16,000 BC to 8,000 BC ---> Does the Caucasus region become overpopulated during the time span? And if so, did it become overpopulated relative to other regions? And did its people possess technologies that others did not have?

    In short, how does one explain the continual expansion of Caucasian groups? To the south into the Levantine, north onto the Steppe, and west into Anatolia? An expansion sustained across thousands of years . . . . Were other areas much less densely populated than the Caucasus?

    Obviously the Neolithic revolution gives rise to massive population expansions, but the CHG seems to have expanded independently of agriculture

  21. #146
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    14-10-21
    Posts
    198

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G2a-Z1903>>PF6863
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV16

    Ethnic group
    Italian, English, Irish
    Country: United States



    The thread on the 2018 Lazaridis study of Dzudzuana is, for me, both fascinating and very hard to follow. Seems relevant here.

  22. #147
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    20,518


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malaparte View Post
    Why was the Caucasus region the seeming cradle of nations? Yes, it was a refugium during the Last Glacial Maxium, but it wasn't the only refugium, and it takes 8000 years to get from 16,000 BC to 8,000 BC ---> Does the Caucasus region become overpopulated during the time span? And if so, did it become overpopulated relative to other regions? And did its people possess technologies that others did not have?

    In short, how does one explain the continual expansion of Caucasian groups? To the south into the Levantine, north onto the Steppe, and west into Anatolia? An expansion sustained across thousands of years . . . . Were other areas much less densely populated than the Caucasus?

    Obviously the Neolithic revolution gives rise to massive population expansions, but the CHG seems to have expanded independently of agriculture
    The way I think of it is that they didn't expand out as a "pure" population,but admixed with other groups. North of the Caucasus they moved out as a group of admixed EHG and CHG. South of the Caucasus they expanded as a mixed Anatolia/CHG-IN group.

    It's not clear to me yet, although I keep scouring the archaeology papers, how early the CHG moved into and mixed with EHG and what exactly they brought with them. Was it before the domestication of animals, and therefore herding was borrowed completely from the farmers of "Old Europe", or was it later and they brought both the concept of herding and some domesticated animals? We do know, I think, that Anatolian Neolithic ancestry moved north into the Caucasus before an admixed group moved south.



    I have the same questions about metallurgy. It's been difficult for archaeologists to disentangle it because there was constant exchange between the farming groups in "Old Europe" and the Near East, but I think it's pretty settled that the early actual Bronze Age occurred in Mesopotamia, between, say, 3500 and 3300 BCE. (We have no idea what these people were like genetically, fwiw...) Did it move north to just south of the Caucasus and reach higher levels of development because of the copper deposits, and then move south again over time?



    I can't see a connection with the steppe because at that time they barely had even copper metallurgy and all of their products seem to be poor copies of the copper metallurgy of "Old Europe", not Mesopotamia. That would change with time, however. Increasing trade meant very fast adoptions of new technology. Look how relatively quickly chariot technology made it all the way to Egypt.

  23. #148
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    14-10-21
    Posts
    198

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G2a-Z1903>>PF6863
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV16

    Ethnic group
    Italian, English, Irish
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    TAnatolian Neolithic ancestry moved north into the Caucasus before an admixed group moved south.
    Could you please elaborate on this. I am not familiar with the fact that Anatolian Neolithic moved in this direction. I thought it moved west into Europe, with some of it moving south into the Levant.

  24. #149
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    20,518


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malaparte View Post
    Could you please elaborate on this. I am not familiar with the fact that Anatolian Neolithic moved in this direction. I thought it moved west into Europe, with some of it moving south into the Levant.
    We knew this all the way back in the days when Dienekes was posting, but it's been confirmed.

    See Wang et al:

    In contrast, the oldest individuals from the northern mountainflank itself, which are three first-degree-related individuals fromthe Unakozovskaya cave associated with the Darkveti-MeshokoEneolithic culture (analysis label ‘Eneolithic Caucasus’) showmixed ancestry mostly derived from sources related to theAnatolian Neolithic (orange) and CHG/Iran Neolithic (green) inthe ADMIXTURE plot (Fig. 2c). While similar ancestry profileshave been reported for Anatolian and Armenian Chalcolithic andBA individuals9,19, this result suggests the presence of this mixedancestry north of the Caucasus as early as ~6500 years ago

    This ancestry persists inthe following centuries at least until ~3100 yBP (1100 calBCE), asrevealed by individuals from Kura-Araxes from both the northeast (Velikent, Dagestan) and the South Caucasus (Kaps, Armenia), as well as MBA/LBA individuals (e.g. Kudachurt,Marchenkova Gora) from the north. Overall, this Caucasusancestry profile falls among the ‘Armenian and Iranian Chalcolithic’ individuals and is indistinguishable from other KuraAraxes individuals (Armenian EBA) on the PCA plot (Fig. 2),suggesting a dual origin involving Anatolian/Levantine and IranNeolithic/CHG ancestry, with only minimal EHG/WHG contribution possibly as part of the AF ancestry9.Admixture f3-statistics of the form f3(X, Y; target) with theCaucasus cluster as target resulted in significantly negative Zscores (Z < −3) when CHG (or AG3 in Late Maykop) were usedas one and Anatolian farmers as the second potential source(Supplementary Table 4). We also used qpWave to determine thenumber of streams of ancestry and found that a minimum of twois sufficient (Supplementary Table 5).

    Details on page 5 and subsequent pages
    https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/sites/...18-08220-8.pdf

  25. #150
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    6,778

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1b2a2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b7

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Malaparte View Post
    The thread on the 2018 Lazaridis study of Dzudzuana is, for me, both fascinating and very hard to follow. Seems relevant here.
    Indeed, I hope that paper will finally be fully-published one day, or at least get a chance to see what the samples look like on ENA. Authors have released samples prior to papers being fully-published in the past, so here's hoping.

Page 6 of 7 FirstFirst ... 4567 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •