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Thread: Earliest paleolithic homo sapiens remains from bacho kiro cave bulgaria

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    Earliest paleolithic homo sapiens remains from bacho kiro cave bulgaria

    Pribislav from anthrogenica :
    Anlayse the calls
    So
    y haplogroup : C, F,P

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post746078

    CC7-335 (A11201); 44840-42880 BC; Bacho Kiro Cave, Dryanovo; Bulgaria; EUP; pre-C-M130 https://www.yfull.com/tree/C/
    C level: 27 derived SNPs, 4 ancestral SNPs Negative for all downstream subclades.
    BB7-240 (A11199); 44180-42450 BC; Bacho Kiro Cave, Dryanovo; Bulgaria; EUP; pre-C-M130 https://www.yfull.com/tree/C/
    C level: 20 derived SNPs, 6 ancestral SNPs and 2 mixed calls SNPs Negative for all downstream subclades.
    F6-620; 42260-40860 BC*; Bacho Kiro Cave, Dryanovo; Bulgaria; EUP; pre-F-Y27277 https://yfull.com/tree/F-Y27277/
    AA7-738; 42260-40860 BC; Bacho Kiro Cave, Dryanovo; Bulgaria; EUP; F-M89 https://www.yfull.com/tree/F/
    CT+, C-, F+ (M3679/PF2656/CTS2220+ G>A (1A)), G-, I-, J-, L-, T-, NO-, K-Y28299-, M-, R1+ (FGC465+ G>A (1A))
    BK-1653; 32870-32260 BC; Bacho Kiro Cave, Dryanovo; Bulgaria; EUP; pre-P-P226 or pre-R https://www.yfull.com/tree/P-P226/
    Sefhardi, aschenazi, bulgarian
    die Überlebenden
    https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/E-Y62418/
    https://yfull.com/mtree/H3ap/
    k12b ancient
    Closest:
    3.30708331
    R136_Imperial_Era_Marcellino_&_Pietrophenotype: east med with pontic vibe

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    Oh, this paper they're not going to attempt to bury. :)

    I think we suspected there would be C and F, yes? Good to have it confirmed though. The P showing up is interesting, if this is correctly done. It's anthrogenica, after all; they want at least P to show up. :)


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Oh, this paper they're not going to attempt to bury. :)
    I think we suspected there would be C and F, yes? Good to have it confirmed though. The P showing up is interesting, if this is correctly done. It's anthrogenica, after all; they want at least P to show up. :)
    Yes
    The C and F not unexpected
    The p is interesting
    Pribislav up untill now showed
    That we can trust his calls anlaysis
    I think he knows what he is doing
    I don't think he has an agenda...
    Here is the cool cave
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacho_Kiro_cave


    From: Initial Upper Palaeolithic Homo sapiens from Bacho Kiro Cave, Bulgaria
    Last edited by kingjohn; 10-02-21 at 20:22.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    Pribislav from anthrogenica :
    Anlayse the calls
    So
    y haplogroup : C, F,P
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post746078
    CC7-335 (A11201); 44840-42880 BC; Bacho Kiro Cave, Dryanovo; Bulgaria; EUP; pre-C-M130 https://www.yfull.com/tree/C/
    C level: 27 derived SNPs, 4 ancestral SNPs Negative for all downstream subclades.
    BB7-240 (A11199); 44180-42450 BC; Bacho Kiro Cave, Dryanovo; Bulgaria; EUP; pre-C-M130 https://www.yfull.com/tree/C/
    C level: 20 derived SNPs, 6 ancestral SNPs and 2 mixed calls SNPs Negative for all downstream subclades.
    F6-620; 42260-40860 BC*; Bacho Kiro Cave, Dryanovo; Bulgaria; EUP; pre-F-Y27277 https://yfull.com/tree/F-Y27277/
    AA7-738; 42260-40860 BC; Bacho Kiro Cave, Dryanovo; Bulgaria; EUP; F-M89 https://www.yfull.com/tree/F/
    CT+, C-, F+ (M3679/PF2656/CTS2220+ G>A (1A)), G-, I-, J-, L-, T-, NO-, K-Y28299-, M-, R1+ (FGC465+ G>A (1A))
    BK-1653; 32870-32260 BC; Bacho Kiro Cave, Dryanovo; Bulgaria; EUP; pre-P-P226 or pre-R https://www.yfull.com/tree/P-P226/

    what are all the orange block ancient samples from in YFull ? ..................all different papers or only what you have commented on ?
    Fathers mtdna ... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ... K1a4
    Mum paternal line ... R1b-S8172
    Grandmum paternal side ... I1-Y33791
    Wife paternal line ... R1a-Z282

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    what are all the orange block ancient samples from in YFull ? ..................all different papers or only what you have commented on ?
    Yes
    The orange blocks= are ancient samples
    I think they are from other dna papers
    All this post is from forum molgen
    P.s
    I guess the yfull links are for branches in yfull
    Who are close to the branches of y haplogroup found in the bacho kiro cave
    The y calls of those ancient done by pribislav
    You can use the anthrogenica link ( i personaly don't have acces to anthrogenica but in my work computer i have access)

    To be more presice the haplogroups are:
    Pre-C-m130
    Pre-C-m130
    Pre-F-y27277
    F-M89
    Pre-P-226

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    Yes
    To be more presice the haplogroups are:
    Pre-C-m130
    Pre-C-m130
    Pre-F-y27277
    F-M89
    Pre-P-226
    Also, the pre-P-P226 (or pre-R) sample is about 10,000 years younger than the rest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thejkhan View Post
    Also, the pre-P-P226 (or pre-R) sample is about 10,000 years younger than the rest.
    true. But I think that if it came from Siberia this sample would be overpacked with Tiunyan ancestry ( Yana without west eurasian). On the contrary this sample shows no more level of east asian than other gravettians samples ( neglegible to nihil ) What conclusion can we draw from that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    true. But I think that if it came from Siberia this sample would be overpacked with Tiunyan ancestry ( Yana without west eurasian). On the contrary this sample shows no more level of east asian than other gravettians samples ( neglegible to nihil ) What conclusion can we draw from that?

    So basically in the 35-40k ybp time frame there's branches of P in far east of Siberia [EDIT: correction, Yana samples are 31k years old] and a branch of P (closer to ancestor of R) in the Balkans. I don't know what conclusion we can draw from that. Did the most ancestral P originate in the West and very early splits moved to the East? Someone in another forum mentioned BK-1653 lived 2500-3000 years after Yana [EDIT: correction, Yana samples are younger than BK-1653], so did one branch of P move all the way from Siberia to Balkans within a 2500-3000 period?

    For now, maybe we can discredit the theory that P-P226, the ancestor of Q and R, came from South East Asia? However still all the most basal branches of P are found among SE Asians (Andamanese, Philippines, Malaysia).
    Last edited by thejkhan; 10-02-21 at 16:24.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thejkhan View Post
    So basically in the 35-40k ybp time frame there's branches of P in far east of Siberia and a branch of P (closer to ancestor of R) in the Balkans. I don't know what conclusion we can draw from that. Did the most ancestral P originate in the West and very early splits moved to the East? Someone in another forum mentioned BK-1653 lived 2500-3000 years after Yana, so did one branch of P move all the way from Siberia to Balkans within a 2500-3000 period?

    For now, maybe we can discredit the theory that P-P226, the ancestor of Q and R, came from South East Asia? However still all the most basal branches of P are found among SE Asians (Andamanese, Philippines, Malaysia).
    On anthrogenica they mentioned that BK-1653 lived 2500/3000 years before Yana. And Yana has 75% WE

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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    On anthrogenica they mentioned that BK-1653 lived 2500/3000 years before Yana. And Yana has 75% WE
    Since i understand you have access to anthrogenica
    Can you share what mtdna types were found in the caves ? ( the usuall mtdna U)

    P.s
    Thanks the jkhan
    it is significant that the pre-p individual
    Is 10,000 years younger from the others

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    Since i understand you have access to anthrogenica
    Can you share what mtdna types were found in the caves ? ( the usuall mtdna U)
    P.s
    Thanks the jkhan
    it is significant that the pre-p individual
    Is 10,000 years younger from the others
    mtdna
    2 x M
    2 x N
    1 x R
    1 X U8

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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    On anthrogenica they mentioned that BK-1653 lived 2500/3000 years before Yana. And Yana has 75% WE
    Ok, my bad, the Yana samples are around 31k years old and so are younger than BK-1653.

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    Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe Tianyuan has no Denisovan ancestry, and neither does Yana or Mal’ta making the origins of their paternal lineage in SEA quite unlikely.

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    Sorry had a accidental double post

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    just before the Aurignacian, there were many regional cultures in Europe
    the first ones popped up around 48 ka
    they lasted only a few thousand years
    first Aurignacians arrived 43,5 ka
    they spread all over Europe 39 ka
    they were C1a2 and they whiped out all other modern humans and the Neadnerthals in Europe

    so, I'm not surprised there were so many different clades between 48 ka and 39 ka

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Johnson View Post
    Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe Tianyuan has no Denisovan ancestry, and neither does Yana or Mal’ta making the origins of their paternal lineage in SEA quite unlikely.
    You are wrong, a study found both Tianyuan and Salkhit have Denisovan ancestry, but they got this from a (northern) Denisovan population that's very different from the (southern) Denisovans who contributed archaic ancestry to SE Asians.Most modern SE Asians, South Asians, East Asians and Oceanians have trace ancestry from the southern Denisovans, which is elevated among Oceanians due to further admixture events. On the other hand modern East Asians have trace ancestry from the northern Denisovans which is absent in other Eastern Non-Africans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur 2 View Post
    just before the Aurignacian, there were many regional cultures in Europe
    the first ones popped up around 48 ka
    they lasted only a few thousand years
    first Aurignacians arrived 43,5 ka
    they spread all over Europe 39 ka
    they were C1a2 and they whiped out all other modern humans and the Neadnerthals in Europe

    so, I'm not surprised there were so many different clades between 48 ka and 39 ka
    Why do you assume the C1a2 folks killed all other modern Humans and Neanderthals in Europe. The evidence suggest that the Neanderthals admixed with early Europeans and were more likely absorbed.

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    I was under the impression that the admixture with Neanderthal took place mostly in the Middle East.

    Ed. No, wait, there was a mixed Neanderthal child somewhere in the Balkans, yes? Mixed with AMH?

    Still, some admixture doesn't mean the men weren't killed or "eliminated" from the breeding pool in other ways, as seems to be the pattern in a lot of history. There isn't much, if any, C1a2 in Europe left. Of course, there weren't many of them to start off.

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    I wonder where was D
    E was still in africa till late mesolithic
    But some branches of D are old
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/D/
    Maybe D was later southern costal route that skipped west asia

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    Some clarification to my own post 17. I have read the paper by Bergstrom, Stringer, Hajdinjak, Scerri adn Skoglund (2021) entitled "Origins of modern human Ancestry" just published in Nature. It is a really, really, really good read. I am not on Twitter, but I read a set of comments on Skoglund's twitter that were posted and I think he has provided a link which allows someone to get the full copy of the article on his Twitter account.

    So with respect to my post, Bergstrom et al 2020 (p.230) in their discussion on Gene flow from Neanderthals conclude that section by stating "Thus, we cannot presently rule out an assimilation scenario in which Neanderthals were absorbed into a larger expanding modern human population." However, I agree that is also possible that war/conflict between the two groups resulted in Neanderthals being killed off. So I think both hypotheses are valid and I guess archeological evidence will be needed to support one and reject the other. So any assumptions that I may have had regarding Neanderthals and AMH sort of were reset after reading the paper.

    So my take on the paper is that some of the maintained models that have been around might have to be revisited. Bergstrom et al 2021 in the Section of the paper entitled "The Last Common Ancestor of modern and Archaic humans" discuss who are possible candidates and who should be ruled out, but they close that section with, in my view, is a statement that challenges much of the maintained assumptions with respect to AMH. From the paper and I quote"

    "Although it is commonly assumed that our ancestors would have lived in Africa before 500 ka, it is still too soon to exclude that they could have lived in Eurasia. A Eurasian origin during this period would also require fewer migrations between Africa and Eurasia to explain currently understood relationships between modern human, Neanderthal, Denisovan and the super-archaic ancestries88. Proteomic data from European H. antecessor165, which shows the potential of ancient protein preservation in the deep past, suggests that it might have been closely related to the common ancestor, but the ancestry information provided by dental enamel proteins is still of low resolution. In any case, with the earliest generally accepted evidence of hominins outside of Africa at around 2 Ma166, the fossil record strongly suggests that all human ancestors before this point, until the common ancestor with chimpanzees, lived in Africa."

    So again, great read, Cheers, PT
    Last edited by Palermo Trapani; 13-02-21 at 19:32. Reason: formatting

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    I wonder where was D
    E was still in africa till late mesolithic
    But some branches of D are old
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/D/
    Maybe D was later southern costal route that skipped west asia
    It'd be nice to have the hg D0 on YFull tree. :)

    A Rare Deep-Rooting D0 African Y-Chromosomal Haplogroup and Its Implications for the Expansion of Modern Humans Out of Africa
    https://www.genetics.org/content/212/4/1421

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    It'd be nice to have the hg D0 on YFull tree. :)
    A Rare Deep-Rooting D0 African Y-Chromosomal Haplogroup and Its Implications for the Expansion of Modern Humans Out of Africa
    https://www.genetics.org/content/212/4/1421
    Interesting thanks
    Here is the map who describe the process
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hapl..._migration.png

    P.s
    There is early bronze age individual called LJM25 from qijia culture central china who turn
    Y haplogroup D ...
    https://i.imgur.com/EZLUjMO.png
    Michael sager responsible for ftdna tree check his calls
    (In specific paper was only identified with mtdna b)
    And found he belonged to d branch called
    D-Y65054 that he share
    With modern tester from kazahstan...
    https://i.imgur.com/ZOFSlca.png
    I am telling this because before this individual
    Haplogroup D
    Remains were only from japan and malasia
    I know this from carlos quiles site and while
    I know people here think is a joke still ancient remains results are based on papers and actual experts who checked the calls...
    The chance that michael sager from ftdna did mistake in the calls is close to 0%
    Last edited by kingjohn; 14-02-21 at 16:31.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    It'd be nice to have the hg D0 on YFull tree. :)
    A Rare Deep-Rooting D0 African Y-Chromosomal Haplogroup and Its Implications for the Expansion of Modern Humans Out of Africa
    D0 (now renamed D2) is not African and I don't know why people keep saying that. I am posting here what I posted in another forum:

    Quote Originally Posted by thejkhan
    Also I would not call the rare D2 as African D, because the three samples in the Nigerian D2a branch has a very young TMRCA of only 2600 ybp (if my memory serves me right). Basal to them, at more distant TMRCA, is a Saudi D2a. And D2b (last time I checked), is represented by a Syrian man. So it's more like a deeply rooted Middle Eastern lineage with some young branch found in SSA. I have not seen the FTDNA tree lately, there may be more samples now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thejkhan View Post
    D0 (now renamed D2) is not African and I don't know why people keep saying that. I am posting here what I posted in another forum:
    That's the title of the study.

    As for the phylogeny, indeed:


    https://dna-explained.com/2019/06/21...d-discoveries/

    Thanks for pointing it out.

    So it'd be nice to have D2 in YFull tree. :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by thejkhan View Post
    D0 (now renamed D2) is not African and I don't know why people keep saying that. I am posting here what I posted in another forum:
    The man from syria damascus
    His surname al-bitar D-FT75
    Very likely has connection to this man
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salah_al-Din_al-Bitar

    P.s
    It is a small world after all

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