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Thread: Ossetians rich in Uralic branch R1b and virtually no Fatyanovo-Sintashta R1a ?

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    Baron
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    Ossetians rich in Uralic branch R1b and virtually no Fatyanovo-Sintashta R1a ?

    Thanks to Eupedia for creating the R1a-Z93 frequency heat map. We can see that among Eastern Iranian language speakers from Ossetia, there are almost no R1a-Z93. Instead like the Komi, who carry a branch of R1b-Z2109(RT-34547 --2600YBP) Ossetians carry R1b-(CTS 1450+--4800YBP)



    North Ossetians have less than 1% R1a, 0.7% R1a (subclade Z2125) according to Underhill
    Bigger sample from Balanovsky 2 of 357 North Ossetians are R1a,
    STR marker analysis show that 1 of them is Z2123, the other Z280
    so 0.3% R1a-Z93(Subclade Z2123) if we will take data from Balanovsky.
    And more data is from big Ossetian ftdna project
    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ction=yresults
    The only R1a-Z2123 N.Ossetian, his ancestor came recently(some centuries ago) from Kuban region(where Adyghe and Karachay are living),
    so 0% R1a-Z93 among N.Ossetians.

    New map of haplogroup R1a-Z93 in Eurasia

    H. event.


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    Baron
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    History and classification[edit]

    Ossetian is the spoken and literary language of the Ossetes, a people living in the central part of the Caucasus and constituting the basic population of the republic of North Ossetia–Alania, which belongs to the Russian Federation, and of South Ossetia, which is de facto occupied by Russia (but is de jure part of the Georgian Republic according to most other states). Ossetian belongs to the Iranian group of the Indo-European family of languages (as hinted by its endonym, ирон). Within Iranian it is placed in an Eastern subgroup and further to a Northeastern sub-subgroup, but these are areal rather than genetic groups. The other Eastern Iranian languages such as Pashto and Yaghnobi show certain commonalities but also deep-reaching divergences from Ossetic.
    From deep Antiquity (since the 7th–8th centuries BC), the languages of the Iranian group were distributed in a vast territory including present-day Iran (Persia), Central Asia, Eastern Europe and the Caucasus. Ossetian is the sole survivor of the branch of Iranian languages known as Scythian. The Scythian group included numerous tribes, known in ancient sources as the Scythians, Massagetae, Saka, Sarmatians, Alans and Roxolans. The more easterly Khorezmians and the Sogdians were also closely affiliated, in linguistic terms.

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    Regular Member Anfänger's Avatar
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Do you have the results for other haplogroups for the Ossetians ? Maybe their R1b frequency is higher. IIRC Sarmatians had a lot of R1b and since Ossetians are remnants of the Alans, i would expect a higher frequency of R1b among them.

    Maybe the Komi have their R1b from the Sarmatians ?

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    It would seem Z93 did not come down through the Caucasus.


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    Baron
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Anfänger View Post
    Do you have the results for other haplogroups for the Ossetians ? Maybe their R1b frequency is higher. IIRC Sarmatians had a lot of R1b and since Ossetians are remnants of the Alans, i would expect a higher frequency of R1b among them.

    Maybe the Komi have their R1b from the Sarmatians ?
    Wow, interesting, your onto something. I checked out the I0575 Early Sarmatian 500–100 R1b1a1a2a2c1-Y21707* and he is related to the modern day Komi. Y21707 is a branch of the related Komi.
    https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2017/03/07/y-snp-calls-for-scythians-and-sarmatians/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    It would seem Z93 did not come down through the Caucasus.
    Some things are not adding up; little or no R1a-Z93 in Alans(indo-Iranian). Also I can't find any evidence that Fatyanovo, Potapovka, Sintashta practiced cereal farming, or used cereals in burials.
    https://www.academia.edu/35436885/Ag...n_Indo_Iranian

    The more general terms appear to be inherited Indo-European words. Te mostcentral term appears to be PII*yáwa-
    ‘grain, cereals, barley’ > Av.yauua-= Ved.yáva-< PIE*jéwo-, c. Hitt.ewa-, Lith.javaĩetc.,11also borrowed into Uralic(*jewä> Finn.jyväetc.);12also in CIr.*yawa-arta(ka)-‘grain-flour’ = ‘grain, cere

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Anfänger View Post
    Do you have the results for other haplogroups for the Ossetians ? Maybe their R1b frequency is higher. IIRC Sarmatians had a lot of R1b and since Ossetians are remnants of the Alans, i would expect a higher frequency of R1b among them.

    Maybe the Komi have their R1b from the Sarmatians ?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_...f_the_Caucasus

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    The North Ossetians, which have a federal republic in the Russian Federation, have a lot of G, which is found in many other Caucasian peoples (the Shapsug Adygei have over 80% G); the only haplogroup the Ossetians and North Ossetians seem to share in decent frequency is J, which is frequent in northeastern Caucasian peoples (some studies have the Chechens having over 50% of J)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joey37 View Post
    The North Ossetians, which have a federal republic in the Russian Federation, have a lot of G, which is found in many other Caucasian peoples (the Shapsug Adygei have over 80% G); the only haplogroup the Ossetians and North Ossetians seem to share in decent frequency is J, which is frequent in northeastern Caucasian peoples (some studies have the Chechens having over 50% of J)
    Yeah, and G frequency would be very high among Svans as well.

    Actually it'd be the most frequent in South Ossetia as whole, too.

    Now, the G in Circassians seems to be mostly G2a2, while in W. Georgians and Ossetians it'd be mostly G2a1. The diversity in both would be low though, despite the high frequencies. In Armenia, on the opposite, the diversity would be high, but the frequency would be way lower (Rootsi et al. 2012).

    Unfortunately, an old study on Ossetians hasn't tested G, so over 40% of South Ossetians ended up as F, plus 24% of J2, 18% of E and 18% of R1a. But the number of samples tested was low: 17.

    Anyway, probably these F were G, since Rootsi et al. suggested a similar frequency for G in South Ossetia: 43.5%. The number of samples was low too: only 23, against 92 for North Ossetia (69.7% of G).

    See: http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/ossetians.html

    This is an oldie, but it provides good clues on the haplogroups among Ossetians:
    https://www.languagesoftheworld.info...tian-past.html

    From the link above:





    If you guys know about more recent studies on Ossetia, please share.

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    Baron
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    Interesting how the thread gets pulled away from the original post that no R1a exists in Ossetians, the same branch of R1b is found in Komi, and modern day Alans from Digor-Ossetians, and ancient-Poltavka-Potavoka-Sintashta samples. No explanation given, other than attention diverted to a language link. Let's get back on topic; on other forums and blogs this would be an infraction, that could add up to being banned, especially when bringing up R1b.

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    Regular Member Regio X's Avatar
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    3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    Interesting how the thread gets pulled away from the original post that no R1a exists in Ossetians, the same branch of R1b is found in Komi, and modern day Alans from Digor-Ossetians, and ancient-Poltavka-Potavoka-Sintashta samples. No explanation given, other than attention diverted to a language link. Let's get back on topic; on other forums and blogs this would be an infraction, that could add up to being banned, especially when bringing up R1b.
    Hey, no need of such comment, but ok. The focus is on the (non-)existence of R1a among Ossetians.Trying to contribute some way...
    You mentioned Ossetians, so what about South Ossetians? I see that Balanovsky et al. 2011 would have found 3.0% of R1b for Iron (n=230) and 16.5% for Digor (n=127), while Yunusbaev et al. 2012 would have found 4.5% for North Ossetians as a whole (n=132). Virtually no R1a, indeed. However, according to one link I shared, the frequency of R1a would be 12% (sorry, I wrote 18% in my previous post) in South Ossetia (n=17), if it makes any difference to your research. No R1b. Old data though, and the number of samples seems to be low (hence why I asked if anyone knows about more recent studies).
    *https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15598217/

  12. #12
    Baron
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    https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms14615#Fig2

    The Sarmatian I0575 Early Sarmatian 500–100 R1b1a1a2a2c1-Y21707* related to the modern day Komi. Y21707 is a branch of the related Komi(R-FT34547) Komi line Y21707 are related to
    Using nuclear SNP data, we performed a principal component analysis33 (PCA) of 777 present-day west Eurasians26,34,35 onto which we projected the eight newly reported Iron Age Scythian samples as well as 167 other ancient samples from Europe, the Caucasus and Siberia from the literature17,34,36 (Fig. 4). The two Early Sarmatian samples from the West (group #3 in Fig. 2) fall close to an Iron Age sample from the Samara district34 and are generally close to the Early Bronze Age Yamnaya samples from Samara34 and Kalmykia17 and the Middle Bronze Age Poltavka samples from Samara34.


    Ossetian Digors are related to R1b-Z2110 (CTS-1450+)line, the same as modern day Mordovian. I wonder what line of R1b the Udmurts have?





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    Baron
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    I had read somewhere, possibly on a Facebook group that those Ossetian kit owners claimed descent from Hungarians who migrated to Ossetia. Not sure on the validity of this claim though. Either way, there is very little diversity in the haplotypes.

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    Baron
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1981 View Post
    I had read somewhere, possibly on a Facebook group that those Ossetian kit owners claimed descent from Hungarians who migrated to Ossetia. Not sure on the validity of this claim though. Either way, there is very little diversity in the haplotypes.
    Hi Aaron, appreciate your R1b input.
    I tend to stay away from sites that grotesquely appropriate, without permission, cultural and linguistics of persecuted minorities{paternal clans like Angles, and their forebearers}, while virtue signalling.

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