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Thread: R1b-L51

  1. #26
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    @etrusco

    By the way, I suppose you have seen the case of p312 in Sicily, many people will try to rescue the Italian refuge theory. It will be fun if it is confirmed, someone should email Harvard to ask.

    *The Arrival of Steppe and Iranian Related Ancestry in the Islands of the Western Mediterranean- Daniel M. Fernandes

    *I11443 (2.190 AC)- BU32, grave 3032 (Sicily_EBA11443). Petrous bone, C14 dated to 2279-2102 calBCE-(4090±60 BP, OxA-32773). HapY-R1b-P312+U152?DF27?-Hap Mitocondrial-U5b2c-These are the data that appear in the Fernandes paper, however, Harvard has used a much older dating.

    BU32 2872-2476 calBCE (4090±60 BP, OxA-32773)-Italy_Sicily_EBA_o2-Buffa. If this second dating (2.674 BC) is correct, then we would have the oldest case of R1b-P312, one hundred years ahead of Osterhofen, El Hundido and Oostwoud. It would certainly be great news, although I personally believe that they are BBs from Iberia like the other cases found in the Buffa cave.

    The presence of Steppe ancestry in Early Bronze Age Sicily is also evident in Y chromosome analysis, which reveals that 4 of the 5 Early Bronze Age males had Steppe-associated Y-haplogroup R1b1a/1a2a/1a2. Two of these were Y-haplogroup R1b1a/1a2a/1a2a/1 (Z195) which today is largely restricted to Iberia and has been hypothesized to have originated there 2500-2000 BCE. This evidence of west-to-east gene flow from Iberia is also suggested by qpAdm modeling where the only parsimonious proximate source for the Steppe ancestry we found in the main Sicily-EBA cluster is Iberians

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaska View Post
    For example

    *I0519 (3.230 BC)-Banbury Lane-HapY-I-Hap [email protected] (0.253) AF (0.584) Yamnaya (0.163)
    *I0520 (3.230 BC)-Banbury Lane-HapY-I-Hap Mit-U5a2/c-WHG (0.2379) AF (0.516) Yamnaya (0.247)
    *I2629 (2.980 BC)-Isbister, Orkney-HapY-I2-Hap Mit-J1c1/b-WHG (0.177) AF (0.355) Yamnaya (0.468)

    You already have a neolithic British farmer with 50% Yamnaya ancestry in 2.980 BC, 500 years before the BB c arrived in the islands.
    I had not these admixture estimations. Surprising a bit, if correct. That said, I don't like this "neolithic farmer" naming, very far of cultural reality, I suppose; here we are with Megalithic "unsteady" people, rather, of the kind which travelled until Scandinavia and North Europe from Britain and North Atlantic. So possibly some contacts with other people, but this doesn't resolve our problem here.
    Thanks for the communication, ATW. If you have more admixture estimations of scientific papers concerning these Y-I2a1 and I2a2 from Britain, i'm buyer. It could change my thoughts, who know?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaska View Post
    Df27 found in Iberia, France and Sicily, all related to the BB culture, are proof that men also moved throughout Western Europe. The key to understand the origin of P312 and Df27 is the Franco-Cantabrian region, i.e. Aquitaine, Occitania, Pyrenees, northern Aragon, Navarre and northern Catalonia.

    Regarding R1b-L51 the oldest cases found so far are in Switzerland, and there is a possibility that this lineage appears in any Neolithic culture in France, Switzerland, Germany or Austria. Even the survival of R1b-P297 in the Baltic Countries (7,000-3,500 BC) may be the key.

    *I4630-ZVEJ30 (7.271 BC)-Latvia, Zvejnieki-Mesolithic, burial 305, adult male, 25-30 years old, 8240±70 BP (Ua-3634). Found in the Zvejnieki II site. Grave goods include: Bone spearhead with one-sided serration. Ochre addition-HapY-R1b1a/1a-P297 (xR1b1a/1a2-M269)- Mit-U5a2/c

    *I4432 (5.997 BC)- Zvejnieki Mesolithic, burial 67, sub-adult, 3-5 years old. Ochre addition- Grave goods include a flint fragment with evidence of processing. HapY-R1b1a/1a-P297 (xR1b1a/1a2-M269)-Mit-U5a2/c

    *I4626-Hg2-ZVEJ25 ; 5841-5569 BC (5.738 BC)-Zvejnieki- Narva Culture; HapY-R1b1a/1a1-P297- Y13200* (xY13202)-Mit-U2e1-depth ~4,37; Jones et al. 2017-ZVEJ25 is so far the earliest split in Y13200 clade, with only 6 derived SNPs, while for example VK531 , a LNBA sample from Norway, has 23 derived and only 3 ancestral SNPs. BOT14 has only derived SNPs at Y13200 and M478 levels, but will split downstream subclade Y14051 (13 derived and 39 ancestral SNPs).

    *I4439 (5.698 BC)-Zvejnieki-Mesolithic, burial 86, sub-adult, 3-5 years old. Grave goods include 23 tooth pendants. Ochre addition- HapY-R1b1a/1a-P297 (xR1b1a/1a2)- Mit-U5b1/d1

    *I4434 (5.495 BC)-Zvejnieki-Mesolithic / Neolithic, burial 128, infant, 1-2 years old. Ochre addition- Grave goods include: a white flint knife, a flint fragment, 13 beaver bones and 92 animal tooth pendants. HapY-R1b1a/1a-P297 (xR1b1a/1a2)-Mit-U5a2/d

    *I4628-Hg3 (5.270 BC)-Zvejnieki HapY-R1b1a/1a-P297 (x R1b1a/1a2-M269)-Mit- U5a2/d

    *I4436 (4.155 BC)-Zvejnieki-Neolithic, burial 261, sub-adult 2-4 years old from a common burial 258-261. No grave goods. HapY-R1b1a/1a-P297 (xR1b1a/1a2.M269)-Mit-U4a1

    *I4627 (4.113 BC)-Zvejnieki-HapY-R1b1a/1a-P297 (xR1b1a/1a2-M269)- Mit-U4a1

    *Tamula3 (3.720 BC)-Tamula, Estonia, Combed Ware Culture-HapY-R1b-L754/P297

    And remember that these samples are overwhelmingly Whgs despite the fact that the Baltic countries are obviously in Eastern Europe. They may originate from Villabruna, Iboussieres or the Balkans.
    Short answer, not conclusive, but about logic: we all know these Baltic HG's and their Y-haplos. They don't say nothing about our question for Y-R-L51. I still believe that R1b in Europe came in several waves, sometimes isolated men whose auDNA has been quickly diluted. The dominant WHG in the Baltic auDNA doesn't signify too much. It seems East-Baltic HG's for a part came from Northern Germany & Southern Scandinavia cultures into E-Baltic, from West anyway, to form Kunda C. under Y-I domination. Later Narva, tied to it, show Y-R1b and Y-I; we cannot be sure of these R1b geographic origin there, but as farther from these ancient western influences, these Y-R1b don't seem by force come from Westwith them in E-Baltic lands. They even could be responsible of the minor EHG (ANE only for someones!) come from East. What we have in North Europe at high dates are Y-I2a(1b)...

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Short answer, not conclusive, but about logic: we all know these Baltic HG's and their Y-haplos. They don't say nothing about our question for Y-R-L51. I still believe that R1b in Europe came in several waves, sometimes isolated men whose auDNA has been quickly diluted. The dominant WHG in the Baltic auDNA doesn't signify too much. It seems East-Baltic HG's for a part came from Northern Germany & Southern Scandinavia cultures into E-Baltic, from West anyway, to form Kunda C. under Y-I domination. Later Narva, tied to it, show Y-R1b and Y-I; we cannot be sure of these R1b geographic origin there, but as farther from these ancient western influences, these Y-R1b don't seem by force come from Westwith them in E-Baltic lands. They even could be responsible of the minor EHG (ANE only for someones!) come from East. What we have in North Europe at high dates are Y-I2a(1b)...
    Here we are talking about L51 and I think it is interesting to know that R1b-L754, P297 and M269 have been found all over Europe (Italy, France, Spain, Norway, Latvia, Estonia, Romania, Bulgaria). And these gentlemen are undoubtedly the ancestors of R1b-L51/P312. The cases in Ukraine and Russia are later than in the rest of Europe, so to think that the origin of any subclade of r1b (except probably V1636) is in the steppes is more an act of faith than a scientific deduction. The problem is that Haak and colleagues in 2015 jumped to hasty conclusions


    1-they did not comprehensively analyze the r1b subclades they found in the steppes.
    2-they did not think that many cases of R1b would appear in mainland europe.
    3-They believed that autosomal composition would be sufficient evidence to demonstrate the spread of a language.
    4-They understood that the autosomal composition of CWC linked this culture to Yamnaya when not even R1a-M417 has been found in that culture.
    5-They thought that finding L23/Z2013 in the steppes was sufficient proof to show that R1b-L51 would also be found there.
    6-They did not take into account that the EHGs have a very high component of WHgs and that the migrations had a western origin (from the Balkans to the steppes) with the contacts between the cultures of old Europe and the steppes.
    7-The importance of female markers in both genetic and cultural diffusion has been underestimated.
    8-They never understood the importance of the BB culture in Western Europe and had to deny the Iberian migrations in order to make their theory genetically credible.
    9-They disregarded the R1b cases they already knew about as ATP3 in Iberia.
    10- They did not know exactly the genetic composition of the Yamnaya culture, until Wang showed that it had a high component of Anatolian Farmers, which makes this culture more similar to the neolithic cultures of Western Europe than they thought.


    These are many doubts and simplistic explanations that if subjected to serious scientific discussion need much more convincing evidence. Among these proofs certainly to find R1b-L51/L151/P310/P312 in the steppes to demonstrate that this lineage also participated in steppe migrations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaska View Post
    Here we are talking about L51 and I think it is interesting to know that R1b-L754, P297 and M269 have been found all over Europe (Italy, France, Spain, Norway, Latvia, Estonia, Romania, Bulgaria). And these gentlemen are undoubtedly the ancestors of R1b-L51/P312. The cases in Ukraine and Russia are later than in the rest of Europe, so to think that the origin of any subclade of r1b (except probably V1636) is in the steppes is more an act of faith than a scientific deduction. The problem is that Haak and colleagues in 2015 jumped to hasty conclusions


    1-they did not comprehensively analyze the r1b subclades they found in the steppes.
    2-they did not think that many cases of R1b would appear in mainland europe.
    3-They believed that autosomal composition would be sufficient evidence to demonstrate the spread of a language.
    4-They understood that the autosomal composition of CWC linked this culture to Yamnaya when not even R1a-M417 has been found in that culture.
    5-They thought that finding L23/Z2013 in the steppes was sufficient proof to show that R1b-L51 would also be found there.
    6-They did not take into account that the EHGs have a very high component of WHgs and that the migrations had a western origin (from the Balkans to the steppes) with the contacts between the cultures of old Europe and the steppes.
    7-The importance of female markers in both genetic and cultural diffusion has been underestimated.
    8-They never understood the importance of the BB culture in Western Europe and had to deny the Iberian migrations in order to make their theory genetically credible.
    9-They disregarded the R1b cases they already knew about as ATP3 in Iberia.
    10- They did not know exactly the genetic composition of the Yamnaya culture, until Wang showed that it had a high component of Anatolian Farmers, which makes this culture more similar to the neolithic cultures of Western Europe than they thought.


    These are many doubts and simplistic explanations that if subjected to serious scientific discussion need much more convincing evidence. Among these proofs certainly to find R1b-L51/L151/P310/P312 in the steppes to demonstrate that this lineage also participated in steppe migrations.

    1- ?
    2- not sure (even it doen't appear in the paper)
    3- agree with you it not sufficient in itself
    4- at some level of history they are right
    5- no record of this (I d'ont find it in the paper of Wang Reinhold Haak about Caucasus, Steppe Maykop and Cy), maybe they tgought it but I don't know how much)
    6- I don't know; are they so dumb? - I agree otherwise that opposite directions travels occurred at high Chalcolithic between Balkans and western Steppes, and that kind of osmosis occurred lately which is found among Andronovo, Sintashta, Srubna and others; DNA, classical anthropology and archeology show it
    7- don't agree for the genetic part, agree that they could have underestimed the weight of females in cultural diffusion; but this diffusion could concern not symetrical aspect of culture; for language, it's complicated: several factors are at play; I thought for a long time that IE could have been the language of an east-central Europe neolithical culture (so: several families of languages among diverses farmers communities of Europe); ATW western farmers are excluded for IE, I think; to date I look a bit more eastwards
    8- I'm not in their head; BB is a curious phenomenon, maybe a multi-segments rocket in time; I think it's oversimplified by more than an archeogenetist and by others too (you?); sure, at some stage, an already well formed BB culture (but with regional variants) has run West to East in Europe, but it does't concern then the Carpathian/Balkan - Steppes threshold
    9- ? or they thought in another way than you about ATP3?
    10- disagree with you: what I saw is a little dose of Anatolian Farmers in Yamna Caucasus, Yamna Ukraine, North Caucasus: between 6% & 13% depending of places, and under pure component or in a cultural mixes (like GAC/Eneol.Cucasus), according presentation. The Samara Yamna doesn't present something of weight. "more similar to the neolithic culture of W-Europe than they thought" is very overrated!
    I need more ancient Y-DNA of Europe to discuss some details; before we had Jane Manco Anthrogenica "Ancestral Journeys" records of ancient DNA. Now?
    I'm still hungry of scientific admixtures results for Megalithic cultures. their HG components seem not completely western, in North, so from where?

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    @Moesan

    1-I mean, five years in genetics is a long time, especially considering the exponential increase in the number of genomes used and the efficiency in analyzing Bam Files. Both Haak and Mathieson 2015 were hasty in their conclusions. For example, when they analyzed Khvalynsk sample I1022 it was labeled as R1b1 when now everyone knows it is R1b-v1636, which has absolutely nothing to do with R1b-M269 and its subclades. And yet they came to the conclusion that R1b together with R1a was responsible for the massive migrations and spread of Ie in mainland europe. Don't you think it is too risky to come to that conclusion? Wouldn't it have been better to wait for more samples from Yamnaya?

    2- Villabruna , Iboussieres, VK531, Balkans and the Baltic. All of them have appeared after 2015. They probably thought that R1b was totally oriental and would never appear in Italy or France before the supposed mass migrations from the steppes.Wouldn't it have been better to wait for more samples from Western Europe?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaska View Post
    @Moesan

    1-I mean, five years in genetics is a long time, especially considering the exponential increase in the number of genomes used and the efficiency in analyzing Bam Files. Both Haak and Mathieson 2015 were hasty in their conclusions. For example, when they analyzed Khvalynsk sample I1022 it was labeled as R1b1 when now everyone knows it is R1b-v1636, which has absolutely nothing to do with R1b-M269 and its subclades. And yet they came to the conclusion that R1b together with R1a was responsible for the massive migrations and spread of Ie in mainland europe. Don't you think it is too risky to come to that conclusion? Wouldn't it have been better to wait for more samples from Yamnaya?

    2- Villabruna , Iboussieres, VK531, Balkans and the Baltic. All of them have appeared after 2015. They probably thought that R1b was totally oriental and would never appear in Italy or France before the supposed mass migrations from the steppes.Wouldn't it have been better to wait for more samples from Western Europe?

    1- I never take their conclusions as face value, agree with you that sometimes, even in scientific papers, the conclusions are a bit simplistic. You see in my answers that I dont't search too much R1b-M269 in far Steppes. What interest me is their data and calculations, but sometimes I have only the bulk of the paper, but not all details. If you look at recent papers, you'll see all kinds of opposite theories about R1a, R1b, I-E and their travels, between 14000 years ago ans 3000, west to east or east to west!!!
    2- It's why I say "wait and see" (not "wet in sea" for the fun)

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    It's pretty simple really.

    No steppe DNA and R1b-M269 in Europe west of the steppe before roughly the start of the third millennium BC.

    After that, plenty of both, and the arrival of Indo-European languages and culture. Now R1b-L51 has shown up in Corded Ware, with Corded Ware levels of steppe DNA.

    Now Reich is saying he can show cousin relationships between Corded Ware and Yamnaya. I can't post links yet, but if watch the Reich video, "[COLOR=var(--ytd-video-primary-info-renderer-title-color, var(--yt-spec-text-primary))]Ancient DNA and the New Science of the Human Past (March 3, 2021)" on YouTube at about 45:00 and beyond, you'll see what I mean.[/COLOR]

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    You can't edit your posts here? That may have been my last post, then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevo View Post
    You can't edit your posts here? That may have been my last post, then.
    You can edit posts after you’ve reached a certain number of posts as a new user. I forget how many it is but it isn’t all that much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevo View Post
    It's pretty simple really.

    No steppe DNA and R1b-M269 in Europe west of the steppe before roughly the start of the third millennium BC.

    After that, plenty of both, and the arrival of Indo-European languages and culture. Now R1b-L51 has shown up in Corded Ware, with Corded Ware levels of steppe DNA.

    Now Reich is saying he can show cousin relationships between Corded Ware and Yamnaya. I can't post links yet, but if watch the Reich video, "[COLOR=var(--ytd-video-primary-info-renderer-title-color, var(--yt-spec-text-primary))]Ancient DNA and the New Science of the Human Past (March 3, 2021)" on YouTube at about 45:00 and beyond, you'll see what I mean.[/COLOR]
    Yeah. it's pretty simple really- Kurganist blah blah blah blah, they have been saying for 10 years that they are going to find R1b-M269/L51/L151/P312 in the steppes and we are still waiting for them to publish their results. They haven't done it yet, and you know why? Because that lineage has never been in the steppes.

    YES, steppe DNA and R1b-M269 in Europe west of the steppe before roughly the start of the III rd millenium BC-I guess I don't need to send you a list of samples, you should worry about looking for them instead of ignoring them.

    YES, after that plenty of both,

    Arrival of Indoeuropean languages and culture?- Really? Do you have proof of what you are saying? Do you know what languages were spoken in Western Europe during the Chalcolithic, Bronze Age and Iron Age?

    NOW, the few cases of L51 that have appeared in the CWC are very modern and have been documented in the areas of contact with the BBC. They are not proof of anything.

    Professor Reich has absolutely no idea what he is talking about because he does not know the European Chalcolithic, he is dedicated to tell fairy tales for people who do not have sufficient preparation in genetics, archeology and anthropology and these people believe what they are told without being able to independently study the data we have at our disposal.It reminds me of a guru who pretends to lecture everyone in order to impose his agenda. He may be very famous and respected in the United States, but here in Spain many people consider his conclusions and interpretations to be unscientific, risky and biased.

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    we could risk that L269 and L23 were around Poland/Balt countries/Eastern Balkans/Western Russia & Ukraina about the 4000's BC, maybe a bit sooner for L269 and a bit later for L23? The L51 seem the cousins gone westwards opposed to the cousins Z2103 gone eastward; the strong presence of L11 in northern Europe, and south the Baltic (+ respective proportions of L23/L11/L51 today) seems pointing to a birth around Poland/Hungary/Croatia (rather Hungary, the crossroad with Danube rivers network) for L51/L11 (close in time) but it's demographic explosion leading including P312 seems rather occurred around Northern Italy Switzerland French Alps Bavaria, IMO. (L21 left traces around the Alps, but headed towards Northwest I think somehow before the eclosion of DF27 & U152 a bit more southernly. This "demographic" explosion could be more linked to sex mating desiquilibrium than to an overwhelming natality. Waiting for ancient DNA confirmation of course.

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    Hi!
    Excellent! I got useful information here. Thank you!

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    Five of the samples from the Narva culture have turned out to be M73, which is the same lineage found in Lebyazhinka IV, Sok River, Samara and later in Botai. Like M269 and V88 it seems that they came to the steppes from the Baltic and the Balkans that is, the homeland of the WHgs. I have always said that the steppes are not the origin but the sink of R1b, and these samples from the Baltic seem to confirm this because all of them (R1b-L754-Italy, P297-Balkans, M73-Baltic, V88-Balkans, M269-Bulgaria and even L51-Switzerland) are older in mainland Europe than the Ukrainian, Russian or central Asian ones.

    *I4432 (5.997 BC)-Latvia, Zvejnieki Mesolithic, burial 67, sub-adult, 3-5 years old. Ochre addition- Grave goods include a flint fragment with evidence of processing-HapY-R1b1a/1a-P297>M73>FTA35755>A19291

    Regarding the Volosovo samples-very homogeneous more western version of EHG without steppe ancestry, they can also be M73 / M478 or maybe M269 surely the steppe fans are not very happy with this data.

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    Y-R1b came from steppes in a broad sense, in ancient times, but it's true it's old story. But don't took as granted that the cradle of later downstreams are from western Europe. Some of them reach far wester Europe, but from East, and at different times and different rates. Every group of suvclades deserves a distinct analysis. And Ukraine is a between land. No far West, not far East.

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    As an interested amateur I'm probably missing the obvious. Why is Steppe R1b-P269 not descended from Neolithic East European R1b-P297. On explanation is that R1b picked up CHG in the Caucasus but surely it could be from a CHG tribe in the Steppe.

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