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Thread: PIE origins, Proto-Anatolian, Maykop and Kristiansen

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    PIE origins, Proto-Anatolian, Maykop and Kristiansen

    Kristiansen, Kristian "The Archaeology of Proto-Indo-European and Proto-Anatolian: Locating the Split" in "Dispersals and Diversification: Linguistic and Archaeological Perspectives on the Early-Stages of Indo-European" ed.: M. Serangeli & Th. Olander (Leiden: Brill, 2020) pp 157-163

    I've just been reading this article on Academia.edu and it is interesting.
    He notes that the Maykop culture was an advanced culture and outpost of Mesopotamian culture much of whose culture was adopted by the Yamna Cultures. In some ways more advanced because they developed wheeled vehicles.
    He also notes that neither the speakers of the Anatoloian sub-group of Indo-Anatolian (Early PIE) nor the Maykop folk had much genetic steppe admixture.
    He proposes that the Maykop folk spoke Indo-Anatolian (Early PIE).
    He proposes that the Proto-Anotolian folk broke away first and moved south.
    He proposes that the Yamna folk adopted the superior Maykop culture including the language but not the genes (this would be understandable, as the Maykop culture was more advanced than the Yamna, so any couples intermarrying would choose if they could to live in the Maykop area).
    The speech of the Yamna folk developed into late PIE.

    I have one misgiving, and that is that Proto-Anatolian doesn't share names for wheeled vehicles with the other PIE tongues which suggests to me that the Proto-Anatolians split from the rest of PIE before the Maykop folks moved north to the foothills of the Northern Caucasus mountains.

    What do others think?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ned View Post
    Kristiansen, Kristian "The Archaeology of Proto-Indo-European and Proto-Anatolian: Locating the Split" in "Dispersals and Diversification: Linguistic and Archaeological Perspectives on the Early-Stages of Indo-European" ed.: M. Serangeli & Th. Olander (Leiden: Brill, 2020) pp 157-163

    I've just been reading this article on Academia.edu and it is interesting.
    He notes that the Maykop culture was an advanced culture and outpost of Mesopotamian culture much of whose culture was adopted by the Yamna Cultures. In some ways more advanced because they developed wheeled vehicles.
    He also notes that neither the speakers of the Anatoloian sub-group of Indo-Anatolian (Early PIE) nor the Maykop folk had much genetic steppe admixture.
    He proposes that the Maykop folk spoke Indo-Anatolian (Early PIE).
    He proposes that the Proto-Anotolian folk broke away first and moved south.
    He proposes that the Yamna folk adopted the superior Maykop culture including the language but not the genes (this would be understandable, as the Maykop culture was more advanced than the Yamna, so any couples intermarrying would choose if they could to live in the Maykop area).
    The speech of the Yamna folk developed into late PIE.

    I have one misgiving, and that is that Proto-Anatolian doesn't share names for wheeled vehicles with the other PIE tongues which suggests to me that the Proto-Anatolians split from the rest of PIE before the Maykop folks moved north to the foothills of the Northern Caucasus mountains.

    What do others think?
    Anthony thought R1a would be a commoner during yamna age, now Kristian claim the Maykob had early PIE.
    I think they had some PIE b/c they have CHG. Their impacts to yamna seems to be related with just materials. Yamna's main culture of sun and animal is closely related with west siberia, lake baikal by EHG.

    I want scholars to focus more upon east Ural to be connected to south-east aral sea from mesolithic to eneolithic.
    I think EHG R1a with mtdna c and pottery of lake baikal would meet CHG J over there to go their journey to Karelia.
    And yamna ancestor would pick up the CHG over there, where cattle and horse bones were buired. That is why I think sitashta culture popped up over there. Moreover mining at western siberia started from neolithic age.

    https://www.uarctic.org/news/2015/9/...stern-siberia/

    Anyway, the maykop seems to have no relationship with yamna as you mentioned.



    https://indo-european.eu/2021/03/ibd...d-populations/

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Already posted here: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...roto-Anatolian
    The threads could be merged, I think.

    See also:
    Trans-cultural diffusion (in opposition to demic diffusion)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ned View Post
    ..........................

    I have one misgiving, and that is that Proto-Anatolian doesn't share names for wheeled vehicles with the other PIE tongues which suggests to me that the Proto-Anatolians split from the rest of PIE before the Maykop folks moved north to the foothills of the Northern Caucasus mountains.

    What do others think?
    Yamnaya pottery derives from old Volga-Samara-Elshanka hunter gatherer style (rounded egg bottom shape) different from Maykop culture (3700 BC – 3000 BC)pottery--


    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...rly_Bronze_Age
    Words of interest--Wine- shared with Hittite and Kartvelian.
    Proto Indo European Wine: Hittite, Proto-Kartvelian
    The English word "wine" comes from the Proto-Germanic*winam, an early borrowing from the Latin vinum, Georgian ღვინო, "wine" or "(grape) vine", itself derived from the Proto-Indo-European stem *win-o- (cf. Armenian: գինի, gini; Ancient Greek: οἶνος oinos; Aeolic Greek: ϝοῖνος woinos; Hittite: wiyana; Lycian: oino).[52][53][54] ..............

    Some scholars have noted the similarities between the words for wine in Indo-European languages (e.g. Armenian gini, Latin vinum, Ancient Greek οἶνος, Russian вино [vʲɪˈno]), Kartvelian (e.g. Georgian ღვინო [ɣvinɔ]), ............... The Georgian word goes back to Proto-Kartvelian *ɣwino-,[63] which is either a borrowing from Proto-Indo-European[63][64][65][66][67][68] or the lexeme was specifically borrowed from Proto-Armenian *ɣʷeinyo-, whence Armenian gini.[69][70][71][72][63] An alternate hypothesis by Fähnrich supposes *ɣwino-, a native Kartvelian word derived from the verbal root *ɣun- ('to bend').[73] See *ɣwino- for more. All these theories place the origin of the word in the same geographical location, Trans-Caucasia, that has been established based on archeological and biomolecular studies as the origin of viticulture.
    Proto Indo European Copper--Yamnaya arsenic copper from developed from Kargaly.

    Alternative reconstructions[edit]



    Noun[edit]

    *h₂éyos n[2][3][4]

    1. a metal, copper, bronze

    Usage notes[edit]

    This is the only word in Proto-Indo-European that unequivocally refers to a metal. There is no word for iron and the words for gold and silver seem to mean “that which shines”, or “the golden” and “the silvery”, respectively. In the early Indo-European languages, this word refers to copper (and bronze), and the Proto-Indo-European word refers with absolute certainty to one of these metals, or both. This shows that the Indo-European language was spoken during a time when copper was used.
    Inflection[edit]

    more ▼Athematic, acrostatic
    singular
    nominative *h₂éyos
    genitive *h₂éyesos
    Descendants[edit]


    • Armenian:
      • Old Armenian: հայ (hay, “Armenian”) (possibly)

    • Germanic: *aiz (see there for further descendants)
    • Indo-Iranian: *Háyas (see there for further descendants)
    • Italic: *aos, *aeznos
    Metallurgy Copper, bronze, silver, iron
    Yamnaya-Afanasievo metallurgy --early Kurgan--copper/bronze-iron burials; compared to King Tut and Hittites.
    The Hittites established an empire in north-central Anatolia around 1600 BC. They appear to be the first to understand the production of iron from its ores and regard it highly in their society.[89] The Hittites began to smelt iron between 1500 and 1200 BC and the practice spread to the rest of the Near East after their empire fell in 1180 BC.[88] The subsequent period is called the Iron Age.

    For example, a dagger made of meteoric iron was found in the tomb of Tutankhamun, containing similar proportions of iron, cobalt, and nickel to a meteorite discovered in the area, deposited by an ancient meteor shower.[84][85][86]
    H. event.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post

    Proto Indo European Copper--Yamnaya arsenic copper from developed from Kargaly.
    why kargaly near Krygyzstan?
    I really want to know how yamna people got a mining technology. According to Russian archaeologist, 1st metal generation in steppe is Maykop culture, but they did not mine. And next generation is yamna and catacomb complex. And it is said that yamna copper artifacts seems to be related with farmer's.

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    @Johan

    You said: "Anyway, the maykop seems to have no relationship with yamna as you mentioned."

    Not quite what I said. The suggestion is that the Yamna had a cultural relationship with Maykop, but not a genetic one. The suggestion is that Yamna adopted the Maykop language as well as some other cultural aspects such as Kurgan burial mounds.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    why kargaly near Krygyzstan?
    I really want to know how yamna people got a mining technology. According to Russian archaeologist, 1st metal generation in steppe is Maykop culture, but they did not mine. And next generation is yamna and catacomb complex. And it is said that yamna copper artifacts seems to be related with farmer's.
    Yamnya were mining at Kargaly. 1000 years before Arkaim. Arkaim just built over much older Yamnaya areas. Yamnaya must have had a name for iron, since it was included in their burials, they could not have gotten the name from Maykop, since Maykop had no iron burials. Maykop pottery is also younger than Yamnaya pottery, therefore Yamnaya must have had names(not borrowed from Maykop) for pottery(Elshanka type) before Maykop was even a culture.
    For example Yamnaya bolshoi boldyrev kurgans they found socketed copper spear, iron chisel, copper knife, bimetalic objects, and iron disk.
    https://books.google.ca/books?id=tvb...kurgan&f=false

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ned View Post
    You said: "Anyway, the maykop seems to have no relationship with yamna as you mentioned."

    Not quite what I said. The suggestion is that the Yamna had a cultural relationship with Maykop, but not a genetic one. The suggestion is that Yamna adopted the Maykop language as well as some other cultural aspects such as Kurgan burial mounds.
    Sorry, I missed one word " genetically" in the sentence. So I quoted genetic data supporting the sentence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    Yamnya were mining at Kargaly. 1000 years before Arkaim. Arkaim just built over much older Yamnaya areas. Yamnaya must have had a name for iron, since it was included in their burials, they could not have gotten the name from Maykop, since Maykop had no iron burials. Maykop pottery is also younger than Yamnaya pottery, therefore Yamnaya must have had names(not borrowed from Maykop) for pottery(Elshanka type) before Maykop was even a culture.
    For example Yamnaya bolshoi boldyrev kurgans they found socketed copper spear, iron chisel, copper knife, bimetalic objects, and iron disk.
    https://books.google.ca/books?id=tvb...kurgan&f=false
    I have not known that yamna territory was extended that much. I always thought that it is very strange for russian anthropologists to try to connect yamna skull to sintasta skull. Moreover recently some anthropologist published paper of whether yamna skull was developed to sintashta skull.

    Anyway, which area do you think is the origin of yamna?

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    I have not known that yamna territory was extended that much. I always thought that it is very strange for russian anthropologists to try to connect yamna skull to sintasta skull. Moreover recently some anthropologist published paper of whether yamna skull was developed to sintashta skull.

    Anyway, which area do you think is the origin of yamna?
    Yes, Yamnaya and Afanasievo (a branch of Yamnaya) are R1b-Z2109+ and L51+, covered a lot of area and travelled together already at 5000+/- Years Before Present; from Mongolia to Balkans to Caucasus to Hungary to and Vucedol. If I were to speculate, they are from Eastern Europe, mixed with Caucasus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    Yes, Yamnaya and Afanasievo (a branch of Yamnaya) are R1b-Z2109+ and L51+, covered a lot of area and travelled together already at 5000+/- Years Before Present; from Mongolia to Balkans to Caucasus to Hungary to and Vucedol. If I were to speculate, they are from Eastern Europe, mixed with Caucasus.
    There is no L51 or anything like it in Afanasievo, it is a contaminated sample.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    Yes, Yamnaya and Afanasievo (a branch of Yamnaya) are R1b-Z2109+ and L51+, covered a lot of area and travelled together already at 5000+/- Years Before Present; from Mongolia to Balkans to Caucasus to Hungary to and Vucedol. If I were to speculate, they are from Eastern Europe, mixed with Caucasus.
    ok, but I have some different opinion:
    Before flexed burial people like Khvalynsk, stredney stog, and yamna appeared in east europe, supine burial people dominated. However, I remembered that Ian M mentioned on 2018 that EHG was diluted by CHG and later farmer's genes in east europe. I think ancient burial type is their Origin Identity. Anatolia farmer did not change their burial type in europe.

    Moreover yamna has mtDNA C. Even if Russian scholar connected yamna C to EHG, the above IBD test shows that even Khvalynsk has no relationship with yamna. I just think a historical fact has not changed that every time different people entered east europe from steppe but with similar culture.

    "during the neolithic, the north pontic region (npr) was home to major prehistoric cultural conglomerates, among them—the dnieper-donets cultural complex (dd). the dd culture has been studied in approximately 200 sites in ukraine and byelorussia, including settlements and large collective cemeteries of the mariupol-type (m-t).1 the main feature of m-t cemeteries is inhumation burial in the supine position. this burial rite differs from most local mesolithic burial traditions and is characteristic of the ‘euro-siberian’ zone of extended burials, which are found from lake baikal and the forest and forest-steppe zones of the east european plain to the northern part of central europe and scandinavia.2, 3"

    "A hypothesis is made that, before the Bronze Age, an anthropological community of ancient population of the plain forest-steppe zones of Eurasia with intermediate Caucasoid-Mongoloid racial features existed in the territories of Western Siberia and Eastern regions of Eastern Europe"


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    Quote Originally Posted by Ned View Post
    You said: "Anyway, the maykop seems to have no relationship with yamna as you mentioned."

    Not quite what I said. The suggestion is that the Yamna had a cultural relationship with Maykop, but not a genetic one. The suggestion is that Yamna adopted the Maykop language as well as some other cultural aspects such as Kurgan burial mounds.
    Wang et al refers to an area north of the Caucasus as 'steppe maykop' with a strong cultural relationship with Maykop, and even some elite Maykop brides, but no further genetic exchange.
    And even if it were so that the Yamna took over the Maykop language, it does not explain why the R1a-M417 Corded Ware and the R1b-L51 Italo-Celts in Europe spoke IE as well, and had a similar social structure and beliefs (but not the Kurgans).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    Yamnya were mining at Kargaly. 1000 years before Arkaim. Arkaim just built over much older Yamnaya areas. Yamnaya must have had a name for iron, since it was included in their burials, they could not have gotten the name from Maykop, since Maykop had no iron burials. Maykop pottery is also younger than Yamnaya pottery, therefore Yamnaya must have had names(not borrowed from Maykop) for pottery(Elshanka type) before Maykop was even a culture.
    For example Yamnaya bolshoi boldyrev kurgans they found socketed copper spear, iron chisel, copper knife, bimetalic objects, and iron disk.
    https://books.google.ca/books?id=tvb...kurgan&f=false
    Do you have a link to the Kargaly mining?

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    https://www.kirj.ee/public/Archaeolo...-2-128-149.pdf
    Nina L. Morgunova and Mikhail A. Turetskij
    ARCHAEOLOGICAL AND NATURAL SCIENTIFICSTUDIES OF PIT-GRAVE CULTURE BARROWSIN THE VOLGA-URAL INTERFLUVE

    Objects of copper and meteor iron. We found the unified production technology for the first and second groups of tools. The ancient blacksmiths mainly used the Kargala copper. These two facts indicate a high level of local metallurgy, which was highly competitive with other contemporary metallurgical centres...
    Thus, the metallurgy of the Ural Pit-Grave culture had been based on local raw material of Kargala copper sandstone since the Repin period. It used to be the main source of metal till the end of the culture

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    https://www.academia.edu/14617592/Un...galy_Southern_

    Understanding_the_productive_economy_during_the_Br onze_Age_through_archaeo_metallurgical_and_palaeo_ environmental_research_at_Kargaly

    Since 1990, the Russian Academy of Sciences in Moscow has conducted researchin Kargaly under Chernykh’s direction. This research has shown that mining

    activity began in the Early Bronze Age (the Yamnaya-Poltavka culture)........

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    thank you Silesian

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