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Thread: Eupedia Ancient Ethnicities Checker: reliably compare your DNA to ancient populations

  1. #251
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
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    6 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by brick View Post


    Gauls_Belgae were similar to northern French and Belgians.
    Of course, this makes no sense historically. Your other effort with Iron Age Italians makes more sense, but still the distances are pretty far for a lot of provinces, not just the ones populated by foreigners, like Aosta, Friuli and Trentino.

    Italian population genetics is too complicated for this kind of two way analysis.


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    3 members found this post helpful.
    I have added:

    - Iron Age Denmark => closest to modern Danes
    - Iron Age Sweden => closest to modern Swedes
    - Iron Age Norway => closest to modern Norwegians

    All from the Margaryan 2020 study. Looks like the Scandinavians haven't changed much genetically in the last 2000 years.

    I have also added new samples Iron Age Britons (+2) and Anglo-Saxons (+1).

    I am working on the Vikings from Oxford and Dorset now. This should tell us how much intermingling there was with the English by the 10th century.
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    A lot of what I see does not make sense from a historical point of view in that it's mixing Chalcolithic and medieval populations. Now I might be exaggerating a bit but you just can't mix populations from different periods.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    A lot of what I see does not make sense from a historical point of view in that it's mixing Chalcolithic and medieval populations. Now I might be exaggerating a bit but you just can't mix populations from different periods.
    @[email protected]

    In a more stricto point of view, I plenty agree with you. In a link disclosed in a Jovialis’ post (see next) in this thread, Maciamo do the separation by era, that allows us to visualize the distance that separate each one of us from the various populations grouped by era.

    1) Dodecad K12b coordinates: Epipaleolithic to Chacolithic

    2) Dodecad K12b coordinates: Bronze Age

    3) Dodecad K12b coordinates: Iron Age & Early Antiquity

    4) Dodecad K12b coordinates: Late Antiquity & Middle Ages

    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    @Maciamo

    https://www.eupedia.com/genetics/anc...analyzer.shtml

    Excellent work on the new information page! I am just seeing it this morning.

  5. #255
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    ... second to last: the new Iron-Age Norway :)


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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    ... second to last: the new Iron-Age Norway :)

    I see mostly Neolithic Farmer with some elevated Hunter Gatherer.....

    Or may be more accurate some kind of 'North European' (10%) introgression into mostly 'Southern European'(90%).

    Or just a usual mix from someone from Southern Italy?

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    North Dutch have a preference for Brittonic + Estonian Iron Age (also in the two way).




    And most close to Iron Age Denmark.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I have added:

    - Iron Age Denmark => closest to modern Danes
    - Iron Age Sweden => closest to modern Swedes
    - Iron Age Norway => closest to modern Norwegians

    All from the Margaryan 2020 study. Looks like the Scandinavians haven't changed much genetically in the last 2000 years.

    I have also added new samples Iron Age Britons (+2) and Anglo-Saxons (+1).

    I am working on the Vikings from Oxford and Dorset now. This should tell us how much intermingling there was with the English by the 10th century.
    A question. As I just presented North Dutch like me have a close distance to iron age Denmark, still the admixture shows a preference for Britton and Estonian mix. Why is there such a difference between the distance and the admixture.....






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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    I see mostly Neolithic Farmer with some elevated Hunter Gatherer.....

    Or may be more accurate some kind of 'North European' (10%) introgression into mostly 'Southern European'(90%).

    Or just a usual mix from someone from Southern Italy?
    It’s a 2way “Oracle”

    ... It’s possible that my 10% Northerner is actually the Southern European DNA carried by many Northerners, ... so that’ll makes me about 100% Southern European and You 10% Salentino or something like that, ... :)


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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    It’s a 2way “Oracle”

    ... It’s possible that my 10% Northerner is actually the Southern European DNA carried by many Northerners, ... so that’ll makes me about 100% Southern European and You 10% Salentino or something like that, ... :)
    clear thanks!]

    Even more fun:

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    I have added the average of 28 Viking genomes from 10th & 11th century Oxford and Dorset. They were clearly already mixed with English locals. The closest modern population is Iceland (distance = 3.1), which is itself a blend of Vikings with Celtic Irish and Scottish populations. Dorset Vikings are closer to modern Irish and Scots than to Scandinavians, Germans or English!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I have added the average of 28 Viking genomes from 10th & 11th century Oxford and Dorset. They were clearly already mixed with English locals. The closest modern population is Iceland (distance = 3.1), which is itself a blend of Vikings with Celtic Irish and Scottish populations. Dorset Vikings are closer to modern Irish and Scots than to Scandinavians, Germans or English!
    What could be factor is that especially Danish and North-Dutch show a specific affinity to Iron Age Brittonic!
    This 'disturbs' the sometimes supposed strict 'Celtic vs Germanic' dichotomy.....



    Last edited by Northener; 26-04-21 at 11:50.

  13. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I have added the average of 28 Viking genomes from 10th & 11th century Oxford and Dorset. They were clearly already mixed with English locals. The closest modern population is Iceland (distance = 3.1), which is itself a blend of Vikings with Celtic Irish and Scottish populations. Dorset Vikings are closer to modern Irish and Scots than to Scandinavians, Germans or English!
    mine changed a little bit with these inclusions


    Distance to: VettorK12b
    3.84695984 Bronze_Age_Illyrians
    5.96880222 Late_Medieval_Latium_(n=16)
    6.60722332 Villanovans_(n=2)
    7.85261740 6th-century_Piedmont_(Italians_&_Lombards)_(n=24)
    10.01532825 Medieval_Catalonia_Valencia_(n=9)
    10.09930691 Roman_&_Visigothic_Iberia_(n=31)
    10.59642393 Etruscans_(n=3)
    10.59899524 Early_Medieval_Latium_(n=5)
    10.70577881 Bell_Beaker_Hungary_(n=6)
    12.92973318 Late_Antiquity_Latium_(n=24)
    13.13600776 Latins_(n=4)
    14.59763337 Medieval_Foggia_Apulia_(n=5)
    15.40992213 Gauls_Belgae_(n=16)
    15.55084564 Middle_Bronze_Age_North_Alps_(n=7)
    15.90517840 Bell_Beaker_Poland_(n=6)
    17.07502855 Western_Scythians_(n=28)
    17.13632983 6th-century_Piedmont_(Italians_only)_(n=7)
    17.47129074 Imperial-age_Marche_(n=2)
    17.55117945 Ostrogoths_(n=3)
    17.85517012 Medieval_Andalusia_(n=14)
    18.58959117 Early_Bronze_Age_Southern_France_(n=5)
    18.62277101 Cucuteni-Trypillian_culture_(n=4)
    19.24526695 Bell_Beaker_Bavaria/Saxony_(n=20)
    19.31956780 Early_Bronze_Age_Swabia_(n=24)
    19.66164540 Bell_Beaker_Gaul_(n=13)



    Distance to: VettorK12b
    0.85824132 46.00% Middle-Late_Bronze_Age_Hungary_(n=12) + 54.00% Imperial-age_Marche_(n=2)
    1.01637028 60.60% Bell_Beaker_Czechia_(n=15) + 39.40% Minoan_Greece_(n=10)
    1.05083303 22.20% Middle-Late_Bronze_Age_Hungary_(n=12) + 77.80% Late_Medieval_Latium_(n=16)
    1.09120220 48.00% Minoan_Greece_(n=10) + 52.00% EBA_Unetice_culture_(n=18)
    1.26204895 58.60% Middle-Late_Bronze_Age_Hungary_(n=12) + 41.40% Imperial-age_Latium_(East_Med_immigrants)_(n=46)
    1.34698817 54.40% Imperial-age_Marche_(n=2) + 45.60% Hallstatt_Celts_(n=2)
    1.38733157 45.40% Italian_Greeks_(n=2) + 54.60% Hallstatt_Celts_(n=2)
    1.57641508 49.20% Mycenaean_Greece_(n=4) + 50.80% Lombards_(n=28)
    1.59465844 41.60% Minoan_Greece_(n=10) + 58.40% Lombards_(n=28)
    1.61657630 53.00% Bell_Beaker_Czechia_(n=15) + 47.00% Mycenaean_Greece_(n=4)
    1.63813115 46.60% Minoan_Greece_(n=10) + 53.40% Swedish_Vikings_(n=23)
    1.69980362 38.60% Middle-Late_Bronze_Age_Hungary_(n=12) + 61.40% Late_Antiquity_Latium_(n=24)
    1.70804040 55.00% Middle-Late_Bronze_Age_Hungary_(n=12) + 45.00% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)
    1.74833672 38.20% Hallstatt_Celts_(n=2) + 61.80% Late_Antiquity_Latium_(n=24)
    1.75992439 21.60% Hallstatt_Celts_(n=2) + 78.40% Late_Medieval_Latium_(n=16)
    1.79619583 69.20% Bronze_Age_Illyrians + 30.80% 6th-century_Piedmont_(Italians_&_Lombards)_(n=24)
    1.81083934 93.60% Bronze_Age_Illyrians + 6.40% Iron_Age_Estonia_(n=8)
    1.81301319 93.00% Bronze_Age_Illyrians + 7.00% Medieval_Estonia_(n=7)
    1.83055149 58.00% EMBA_Greece_(n=6) + 42.00% Nordic_Bronze_Age_(n=14)
    1.83939066 5.00% Mesolithic_Ukraine_(n=7) + 95.00% Bronze_Age_Illyrians
    1.84098870 6.80% Eastern_Corded_Ware_(n=8) + 93.20% Bronze_Age_Illyrians
    1.84104359 5.00% Neolithic_Ukraine_(n=12) + 95.00% Bronze_Age_Illyrians
    1.84886826 94.20% Bronze_Age_Illyrians + 5.80% Baltic_Bronze_Age_(n=12)
    1.84994977 94.20% Bronze_Age_Illyrians + 5.80% Bronze_Age_Estonia_(n=16)
    1.85704496 40.00% Early_Neolithic_Anatolia_(n=7) + 60.00% Bell_Beaker_Czechia_(n=15)
    Fathers mtdna ... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ... K1a4p
    Mum paternal line ... R1b-S8172
    Grandmum paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ... R1a-Z282

  14. #264
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    I have run the 28 Viking genomes from England separately in Vahaduo. It gives us a clearer picture of the heterogeneity of the Viking bands at the time.

    Vikings from Oxford (St Brice's Day Massacre)

    ID Closest modern population
    VK143 Icelandic
    VK144 Hungarian
    VK145 German
    VK146 Italian from Friuli
    VK147 Icelandic
    VK148 Norwegian
    VK150 Belgian
    VK151 Norwegian
    VK165 Icelandic
    VK167 Swedish
    VK168 Icelandic
    VK172 Icelandic
    VK173 Scottish
    VK174 Icelandic
    VK175 Norwegian
    VK176 Norwegian
    VK177 Northwest French
    VK178 Dutch


    Vikings from Dorset

    ID Closest modern population
    VK256 Norwegian
    VK257 Irish
    VK258 Icelandic
    VK259 Icelandic
    VK260 Irish
    VK261 French
    VK262 North English
    VK263 Icelandic
    VK264 Icelandic
    VK449 Icelandic


    As mentioned above, Icelandic implies mixed Scandinavian and Irish/British ancestry.

    The Hungarian and North Italian ancestry are the most surprising.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I have added the Danish Vikings based on 21 samples from Margaryan 2020..

    Interestingly Danish Vikings weren't closest to modern Danes, but modern Dutch people and Northwest Germans (both 2.7), then North English and Icelandic people (both 5.2), then only modern Danes (5.3). That is surely because the samples tested included a lot of foreigners.

    ID Closest modern population
    VK84 North French
    VK90 Italians from Aosta Valley
    VK92 Northwest French
    VK94 Irish
    VK134 Danish
    VK138 Belgians
    VK139 Belarussians
    VK141 Swedish
    VK274 Hungarians
    VK275 Swedish
    VK276 Belgians
    VK278 Germans from Bavaria
    VK280 Belgians
    VK282 Germans
    VK284 Northeast Poles
    VK285 Northwest Germans
    VK286 Italians from Aosta Valley
    VK287 Russians
    VK288 Swedish
    VK289 Danish
    VK295 Danish

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Of course, this makes no sense historically. Your other effort with Iron Age Italians makes more sense, but still the distances are pretty far for a lot of provinces, not just the ones populated by foreigners, like Aosta, Friuli and Trentino.

    Italian population genetics is too complicated for this kind of two way analysis.

    Of course I agree with you, the first model makes no sense historically.

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    Distance to: Me
    2.65061115 20.60% Pre-Pottery_Neolithic_Levant_(n=15) + 79.40% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)
    2.93476628 16.40% Chalcolithic_Israel + 83.60% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)
    3.51754800 9.00% Epipaleolithic_Levant_(Natufians)_(n=6) + 91.00% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)
    3.61071879 15.40% Early_Bronze_Age_Jordan_(n=3) + 84.60% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)
    3.72419382 48.20% Chalcolithic_North_Levant_(n=6) + 51.80% Medieval_Foggia_Apulia_(n=5)
    3.94593137 19.80% Chalcolithic_North_Levant_(n=6) + 80.20% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)
    3.94707718 55.00% Early-Middle_Bronze_Age_North_Levant_(n=9) + 45.00% Etruscans_(n=3)
    4.19790960 53.60% Early_Bronze_Age_Anatolia_(n=4) + 46.40% Etruscans_(n=3)
    4.23738572 14.60% Late_Bronze_Age_Israel_(n=3) + 85.40% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)
    4.24922781 17.00% Pre-Pottery_Neolithic_Levant_(n=15) + 83.00% Imperial-age_Latium_(East_Med_immigrants)_(n=46)
    4.32577781 91.40% Imperial-age_Latium_(East_Med_immigrants)_(n=46) + 8.60% Early_Medieval_Canaries_(n=5)
    4.41247342 8.20% Early_Neolithic_Maghreb_(n=1) + 91.80% Imperial-age_Latium_(East_Med_immigrants)_(n=46)
    4.41722438 69.80% Chalcolithic_North_Levant_(n=6) + 30.20% Western_Scythians_(n=28)
    4.44127285 12.80% Early-Middle_Bronze_Age_North_Levant_(n=9) + 87.20% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)
    4.51068162 65.80% EMBA_Greece_(n=6) + 34.20% Late_Bronze_Age_Israel_(n=3)
    4.64909195 7.00% Epipaleolithic_Levant_(Natufians)_(n=6) + 93.00% Imperial-age_Latium_(East_Med_immigrants)_(n=46)
    4.66378917 45.20% Chalcolithic_North_Levant_(n=6) + 54.80% 6th-century_Piedmont_(Italians_only)_(n=7)
    4.68207574 93.20% Italian_Greeks_(n=2) + 6.80% Early_Medieval_Canaries_(n=5)
    4.69974085 57.00% Early_Bronze_Age_Anatolia_(n=4) + 43.00% Roman_&_Visigothic_Iberia_(n=31)
    4.71205461 56.60% Early-Middle_Bronze_Age_North_Levant_(n=9) + 43.40% Villanovans_(n=2)

    The most even 2ways
    3.72419382 48.20% Chalcolithic_North_Levant_(n=6) + 51.80% Medieval_Foggia_Apulia_(n=5)
    3.94707718 55.00% Early-Middle_Bronze_Age_North_Levant_(n=9) + 45.00% Etruscans_(n=3)
    4.19790960 53.60% Early_Bronze_Age_Anatolia_(n=4) + 46.40% Etruscans_(n=3)
    4.66378917 45.20% Chalcolithic_North_Levant_(n=6) + 54.80% 6th-century_Piedmont_(Italians_only)_(n=7)
    4.69974085 57.00% Early_Bronze_Age_Anatolia_(n=4) + 43.00% Roman_&_Visigothic_Iberia_(n=31)
    4.71205461 56.60% Early-Middle_Bronze_Age_North_Levant_(n=9) + 43.40% Villanovans_(n=2)

  18. #268
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I thought that the Terramare culture was the first Indo-European advance into Italy? If that is the case, it doesn't show at all in these samples from Olmo di Nogara, who have 0% of Gedrosia and only 11% of North European, just like the people from the Chalcolithic Remedello culture in the same region. In fact, what we see is in increase in Caucasus, SW Asian and NW African admixture (+14% in total) in the Middle Bronze Age and a decrease in Atlantic Med. So it looks like the Early/Middle Bronze Age immigrants to North Italy came from Greece, maybe via South Italy, but definitely not from Central Europe. I suppose that the Proto-Italics only started crossing the Alps from the Late Bronze Age onwards.


    Ethnicity Gedrosia Siberia NW Africa SE Asia Atlantic Med North Europe South Asia East Africa SW Asia East Asia Caucasus SSA
    Remedello culture (n=3) 0.00 0.00 0.78 0.71 69.04 11.78 0.00 0.00 5.18 0.00 11.80 0.72
    Middle Bronze Age North Italy (n=4) 0.00 0.21 1.88 0.00 56.32 11.55 0.06 0.04 9.77 0.16 19.64 0.37

    Who are the 4 samples on which the Middle Bronze Age North Italy average is based?

    If I remember correctly, the oldest sample that comes from Italy and has Steppe is the sample I2478 (2194–1939 BC) from Parma, Emilia, and that archaeologically belongs to Bell Beaker (YDNA R1b1a2a1a2 (R-P312) and mtDNA K1a2a). He was buried with a younger woman who was Sardinian-like and Steppe-less.

    Personally I think that of all the calculators on gedmatch Dodecad 12K is the one that keeps working better, especially with the new tests that use different chips from the past. But even the components of Dodecad K12 are not true ancestral components, it is hard to draw conclusions even with Dodecad.

    Archaeologically, I don't recall the hypothesis that there are Early/Middle Bronze Age immigrants to North Italy from Greece. If there is any arrival from outside, it is more likely to come from the northern Balkans entering as usual in Friuli and from there moving further into Italy.

    As for the Proto-Italics, yes it seems to have greater consensus that they began to cross the Alps only from the late Bronze Age onwards, roughly with the beginning of the Proto-Villanovan culture which is a facies that exists everywhere in Italy and should not be confused with the Iron Age Villanovan culture that is associated only with the Etruscans. Probably Indo-European movements were already present with the culture of Polada and Terramare but what is important is that when they ended, rather than when they begin in my opinion, and when the ethnic groups of pre-Roman Italy are then formed.

    It must be added that the Latin-Faliscan is not linguistically considered Italic in the strict sense and that the opinion that enjoys greater consensus is that it belongs to a different migratory movement from that which brought the Osco-Umbrian languages. On the Venetic language instead there is still no consensus, the Venetic language shows an ancient relationship with Latin but it is not yet completely clear if they can be classified together.

    Generally speaking one of the most widespread opinions is that the Latin-Faliscan speakers arrived before the Osco-Umbrian speakers, in any case both from the Middle-Danube Urnfield cultures. Also for the Etruscans it is archaeologically assumed that they also received Indo-European language migrations from the Middle-Danube Urnfield cultures between the end of the Bronze and the beginning of the Iron Age from the Danubian-Carpathian area and the northern Balkans.

  19. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Who are the 4 samples on which the Middle Bronze Age North Italy average is based?

    If I remember correctly, the oldest sample that comes from Italy and has Steppe is the sample I2478 (2194–1939 BC) from Parma, Emilia, and that archaeologically belongs to Bell Beaker (YDNA R1b1a2a1a2 (R-P312) and mtDNA K1a2a). He was buried with a younger woman who was Sardinian-like and Steppe-less.

    Personally I think that of all the calculators on gedmatch Dodecad 12K is the one that keeps working better, especially with the new tests that use different chips from the past. But even the components of Dodecad K12 are not true ancestral components, it is hard to draw conclusions even with Dodecad.

    Archaeologically, I don't recall the hypothesis that there are Early/Middle Bronze Age immigrants to North Italy from Greece. If there is any arrival from outside, it is more likely to come from the northern Balkans entering as usual in Friuli and from there moving further into Italy.

    As for the Proto-Italics, yes it seems to have greater consensus that they began to cross the Alps only from the late Bronze Age onwards, roughly with the beginning of the Proto-Villanovan culture which is a facies that exists everywhere in Italy and should not be confused with the Iron Age Villanovan culture that is associated only with the Etruscans. Probably Indo-European movements were already present with the culture of Polada and Terramare but what is important is that when they ended, rather than when they begin in my opinion, and when the ethnic groups of pre-Roman Italy are then formed.

    It must be added that the Latin-Faliscan is not linguistically considered Italic in the strict sense and that the opinion that enjoys greater consensus is that it belongs to a different migratory movement from that which brought the Osco-Umbrian languages. On the Venetic language instead there is still no consensus, the Venetic language shows an ancient relationship with Latin but it is not yet completely clear if they can be classified together.

    Generally speaking one of the most widespread opinions is that the Latin-Faliscan speakers arrived before the Osco-Umbrian speakers, in any case both from the Middle-Danube Urnfield cultures. Also for the Etruscans it is archaeologically assumed that they also received Indo-European language migrations from the Middle-Danube Urnfield cultures between the end of the Bronze and the beginning of the Iron Age from the Danubian-Carpathian area and the northern Balkans.
    Venetic language is closest to Latin-Faliscan than with Osco-Umbrian .................I already added a study on this in a thread here a few months ago.

    Archeologist, Perego has many papers that the Venetic was only in Italy from circa 1200BC and before this the modern regions of Friuli, Veneto and South-Trentino was ruled by the many Euganei tribes ..........they had some links with the Rhaeti from North-Trentino and South-Tyrol regions

    https://journals.openedition.org/mefra/2508?lang=en

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    Venetic language is closest to Latin-Faliscan than with Osco-Umbrian .................I already added a study on this in a thread here a few months ago.

    Archeologist, Perego has many papers that the Venetic was only in Italy from circa 1200BC and before this the modern regions of Friuli, Veneto and South-Trentino was ruled by the many Euganei tribes ..........they had some links with the Rhaeti from North-Trentino and South-Tyrol regions

    https://journals.openedition.org/mefra/2508?lang=en
    A paper released in 2020.

    "La posizione linguistica del venetico è stato un tema ampiamente dibattuto in passato, e non ancora pervenuto ad un assetto definitivo. L’appartenenza del venetico alla famiglia indeuropea è data per acquisita fin a partire dalla fine dell’Ottocento con Pauli, anche se lo stesso ne sosteneva l’appartenenza ad un ramo ‘illirico’, tesi la cui insussistenza è stata in seguito dimostrata da Krahe. Dopo alcuni interventi che sottolineavano l’affinità del venetico col latino (Altheim, Beeler), il venetico è stato riportato da alcuni studiosi ad una posizione di autonomia nel quadro indeuropeo (Krahe, Pisani, Pellegrini), ma l’opinione prevalente — fin dagli anni ’50 — ne vede l’attribuzione al ramo italico dell’indeuropeo (Beeler, Lejeune). Nonostante non siano mancati i sostenitori di relazioni privilegiate con altre lingue (celtico in primis), la classificazione nel ramo italico si può ormai dire acquisita; il nodo ancora irrisolto riguarda la posizione interna del venetico, in relazione al latino da una parte e alle lingue italiche (= sabelliche) dall’altra; sostanzialmente neutrale è la posizione di Lejeune, mentre più decisamente orientato verso una affinità col latino è Prosdocimi; più di recente Prósper rivendica le relazioni con l’italico".


    Marinetti, A. (2020). Venético. Palaeohispanica. Revista Sobre Lenguas Y Culturas De La Hispania Antigua, (20), 367-401.

    https://doi.org/10.36707/palaeohispanica.v0i20.374
    La posizione linguistica del venetico è stato un tema ampiamente dibattu-
    to in passato, e non ancora pervenuto ad un assetto definitivo

    La posizione linguistica del venetico è stato un tema ampiamente dibattu-
    to in passato, e non ancora pervenuto ad un assetto definitivo

    La posizione linguistica del venetico è stato un tema ampiamente dibattu-
    to in passato, e non ancora pervenuto ad un assetto definitivo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    A paper released in 2020.

    "La posizione linguistica del venetico è stato un tema ampiamente dibattuto in passato, e non ancora pervenuto ad un assetto definitivo. L’appartenenza del venetico alla famiglia indeuropea è data per acquisita fin a partire dalla fine dell’Ottocento con Pauli, anche se lo stesso ne sosteneva l’appartenenza ad un ramo ‘illirico’, tesi la cui insussistenza è stata in seguito dimostrata da Krahe. Dopo alcuni interventi che sottolineavano l’affinità del venetico col latino (Altheim, Beeler), il venetico è stato riportato da alcuni studiosi ad una posizione di autonomia nel quadro indeuropeo (Krahe, Pisani, Pellegrini), ma l’opinione prevalente — fin dagli anni ’50 — ne vede l’attribuzione al ramo italico dell’indeuropeo (Beeler, Lejeune). Nonostante non siano mancati i sostenitori di relazioni privilegiate con altre lingue (celtico in primis), la classificazione nel ramo italico si può ormai dire acquisita; il nodo ancora irrisolto riguarda la posizione interna del venetico, in relazione al latino da una parte e alle lingue italiche (= sabelliche) dall’altra; sostanzialmente neutrale è la posizione di Lejeune, mentre più decisamente orientato verso una affinità col latino è Prosdocimi; più di recente Prósper rivendica le relazioni con l’italico".


    Marinetti, A. (2020). Venético. Palaeohispanica. Revista Sobre Lenguas Y Culturas De La Hispania Antigua, (20), 367-401.

    https://doi.org/10.36707/palaeohispanica.v0i20.374
    La posizione linguistica del venetico è stato un tema ampiamente dibattu-
    to in passato, e non ancora pervenuto ad un assetto definitivo

    La posizione linguistica del venetico è stato un tema ampiamente dibattu-
    to in passato, e non ancora pervenuto ad un assetto definitivo

    La posizione linguistica del venetico è stato un tema ampiamente dibattu-
    to in passato, e non ancora pervenuto ad un assetto definitivo
    The issue with Marinetti is that she does not resolve the original inhabitants of the area , while Perego does

    https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctv3t...o_tab_contents

    Marinetti seems to think no one was in North-East italy before the Venetic people arrived or fails to cover it................it is the same old , same old with Marinetti

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    The issue with Marinetti is that she does not resolve the original inhabitants of the area , while Perego does

    https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctv3t...o_tab_contents

    Marinetti seems to think no one was in North-East italy before the Venetic people arrived or fails to cover it................it is the same old , same old with Marinetti

    Marinetti is a linguist and her paper focuses only on Venetic, it's not really her job to solve what you're talking about. Perego is an archeologist.

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    My genetic distance among those ancient samplesAttachment 12672
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Code:
    BA_Ancient_Egyptian:JK2134,0.83,0,8.24,0,15.48,0,0,6.5,32.25,0,36.69,0
    BA_Ancient_Egyptian:JK2888,0.23,0,10.62,0,15.29,0,0,6.3,32.71,0,34.85,0
    BA_Ancient_Egyptian:JK2911,1.61,0.82,7.99,0.95,12.77,0,0.32,6.44,33.51,0.06,35.53,0
    
    BA_Ancient_Egyptian_(n=3),0.89,0.273333333,8.95,0.316666667,14.51333333,0,0.106666667,6.413333333,32.82333333,0.02,35.69,0
    Ancient Egyptians

    Ancient Egyptian mummy genomes suggest an increase of Sub-Saharan African ancestry in post-Roman periods | Nature Communications

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Code:
    BA_Ancient_Egyptian:JK2134,0.83,0,8.24,0,15.48,0,0,6.5,32.25,0,36.69,0
    BA_Ancient_Egyptian:JK2888,0.23,0,10.62,0,15.29,0,0,6.3,32.71,0,34.85,0
    BA_Ancient_Egyptian:JK2911,1.61,0.82,7.99,0.95,12.77,0,0.32,6.44,33.51,0.06,35.53,0
    
    BA_Ancient_Egyptian_(n=3),0.89,0.273333333,8.95,0.316666667,14.51333333,0,0.106666667,6.413333333,32.82333333,0.02,35.69,0
    Ancient Egyptians

    Ancient Egyptian mummy genomes suggest an increase of Sub-Saharan African ancestry in post-Roman periods | Nature Communications
    Distance to: BA_Ancient_Egyptian_(n=3)
    5.40290971 Coptic
    10.89614256 Egyptian
    13.25021761 Jordanian_Muslim
    13.83067123 Palestinian
    13.83731067 Jordanian_Christian
    14.58840978 Bedouin
    14.63119726 Syrian_SW_Christian
    15.16207549 Palestinian_Christian
    17.24141622 Syrian_Muslim
    18.31857436 Kuwait1
    18.33372484 Lebanese_Christian
    18.49851345 Lebanese_Muslim
    19.78952754 Yemenite_Mahra
    20.29654650 Iraqi_Arab
    20.92513003 Nusayri_Turkey
    21.56825677 Greek_Cypriot
    22.02733529 Morocco_Jews
    22.51023249 Saudi
    22.53014277 Turk_Cyprus
    22.66852958 Yemenite_mixed
    22.93816252 Sephardic_Jews
    23.18180896 Italian_Jews
    23.36516852 Arab_Iran
    23.60695378 Iraqi_Jew
    24.33897149 Iraqi_Baghdad

    Distance to: BA_Ancient_Egyptian_(n=3)
    8.85923059 Chalcolithic_Israel
    9.43461358 Early_Bronze_Age_Jordan_(n=3)
    11.92433227 Pre-Pottery_Neolithic_Levant_(n=15)
    15.02139696 Late_Bronze_Age_Israel_(n=3)
    17.60487811 Early-Middle_Bronze_Age_North_Levant_(n=9)
    19.82554413 Middle-Late_Bronze_Age_North_Levant_(n=24)
    21.22479211 Chalcolithic_North_Levant_(n=6)
    25.11349504 Early_Bronze_Age_Anatolia_(n=4)
    25.11877385 Imperial-age_Latium_(East_Med_immigrants)_(n=46)
    25.68113185 Chalcolithic_Anatolia_(n=35)
    27.29128005 Middle-Late_Bronze_Age_Hittites_(n=2)
    27.40460363 Epipaleolithic_Levant_(Natufians)_(n=6)
    27.62940704 Chalcolithic_Azerbaijan_(n=4)
    27.85185631 Italian_Greeks_(n=2)
    31.06945392 Middle_Bronze_Age_Anatolia_(n=2)
    32.26044327 Early_Neolithic_Anatolia_(n=7)
    32.64035743 EMBA_Greece_(n=6)
    33.76692761 Minoan_Greece_(n=10)
    33.80271932 6th-century_Piedmont_(Italians_only)_(n=7)
    33.88694586 Imperial-age_Marche_(n=2)
    34.42262337 Medieval_Foggia_Apulia_(n=5)
    34.90256724 Mycenaean_Greece_(n=4)
    35.42841891 Early_Neolithic_Greece_(n=3)
    36.32362087 Late_Antiquity_Latium_(n=24)
    38.31379908 Early_Medieval_Latium_(n=5)

    Distance to: BA_Ancient_Egyptian_(n=3)
    5.46940927 9.40% Epipaleolithic_Magreb_(Iberomaurusians)_(n=5) + 90.60% Early_Bronze_Age_Jordan_(n=3)
    5.51571175 8.40% Epipaleolithic_Magreb_(Iberomaurusians)_(n=5) + 91.60% Chalcolithic_Israel
    6.43101789 47.60% Epipaleolithic_Levant_(Natufians)_(n=6) + 52.40% Early_Bronze_Age_Anatolia_(n=4)
    6.63035192 38.00% Epipaleolithic_Levant_(Natufians)_(n=6) + 62.00% Early-Middle_Bronze_Age_North_Levant_(n=9)
    6.85681431 48.20% Epipaleolithic_Levant_(Natufians)_(n=6) + 51.80% Chalcolithic_Anatolia_(n=35)
    7.23694679 88.40% Chalcolithic_Israel + 11.60% Early_Medieval_Canaries_(n=5)
    7.24780040 86.60% Early_Bronze_Age_Jordan_(n=3) + 13.40% Early_Medieval_Canaries_(n=5)
    7.89177445 16.40% Epipaleolithic_Levant_(Natufians)_(n=6) + 83.60% Early_Bronze_Age_Jordan_(n=3)
    7.90581876 32.80% Epipaleolithic_Levant_(Natufians)_(n=6) + 67.20% Late_Bronze_Age_Israel_(n=3)
    7.96556713 92.20% Chalcolithic_Israel + 7.80% Maykop_culture_(n=16)
    8.02908707 77.20% Chalcolithic_Israel + 22.80% Late_Bronze_Age_Israel_(n=3)
    8.03538197 93.00% Chalcolithic_Israel + 7.00% Late_Bronze_Age_North_Caucasus_(n=4)
    8.05816670 94.40% Chalcolithic_Israel + 5.60% Eastern_Scythians_(n=12)
    8.09171374 4.60% Pre-Pottery_Neolithic_Iran_(n=6) + 95.40% Chalcolithic_Israel
    8.10944025 35.60% Pre-Pottery_Neolithic_Levant_(n=15) + 64.40% Early_Bronze_Age_Jordan_(n=3)
    8.12899610 5.80% Epipaleolithic_Mesolithic_Caucasus_(CHG)_(n=2) + 94.20% Chalcolithic_Israel
    8.13178435 4.40% Chalcolithic_Pontic_Steppe_(n=3) + 95.60% Chalcolithic_Israel
    8.14374400 94.80% Chalcolithic_Israel + 5.20% Tian_Shan_Huns_(n=8)
    8.16441421 11.60% Epipaleolithic_Levant_(Natufians)_(n=6) + 88.40% Chalcolithic_Israel
    8.16579724 6.80% Chalcolithic_Northwest_Caucasus_(n=3) + 93.20% Chalcolithic_Israel
    8.16602397 95.00% Chalcolithic_Israel + 5.00% Iron_Age_Altai_(n=5)
    8.16745539 94.80% Chalcolithic_Israel + 5.20% Tian_Shan_Saka_(n=5)
    8.18076862 91.80% Chalcolithic_Israel + 8.20% Kura-Araxes_culture_(n=8)
    8.18547517 95.60% Chalcolithic_Israel + 4.40% Mongolian_Xiongnu_(n=5)
    8.19090442 95.80% Chalcolithic_Israel + 4.20% Bronze_Age_Kola_peninsula_(n=6)

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