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Thread: Eupedia Ancient Ethnicities Checker: reliably compare your DNA to ancient populations

  1. #326
    Satyavrata Maciamo's Avatar
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    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    5 members found this post helpful.
    I have added:

    - Chalcolithic Italy : closest to modern Sardinians (distance 6.1) and nobody else.

    - Middle/Late Bronze Age central and north Italy (added 5 samples for a total of 9) : most similar to modern Spaniards (distance between 11 and 13 depending on the region).
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  2. #327
    Moderator Pax Augusta's Avatar
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    Ethnic group
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    Country: Italy



    2 members found this post helpful.
    Distance to: Middle_Late_Bronze_Age_Italy_(n=9)
    11.11572310 Spanish_Andalusia
    11.14206444 Spanish_Asturias
    11.31010610 Spanish_Valencia
    11.31709327 Spanish_Aragon
    11.56946412 Spanish_Castilla-Leon
    12.07579397 Spanish_La_Rioja
    12.41814801 Spanish_Catalonia
    12.58957505 Spanish_Cantabria
    12.89268009 Sardinian
    13.04998084 Spanish_Baleares
    13.19316869 Spanish_Galicia
    14.01243733 Portuguese
    14.48325585 French_Corsica
    14.90155361 Italian_Lombardy
    15.21770351 Spanish_Canarias
    15.35303227 French_Southwest
    15.82868283 Italian_Liguria
    16.05764654 Swiss_Italian
    16.53261927 Italian_Emilia
    16.64564508 Italian_Piedmont
    16.85534633 Italian_Aosta_Valley
    17.37253867 Italian_Tuscany
    17.84622929 Italian_Trentino
    18.19239127 Spanish_Basque
    18.27447947 Italian_Veneto


    Distance to: Chalcolithic_Italy_(n=5)
    6.14823552 Sardinian
    25.67103231 French_Corsica
    27.61752704 Spanish_Asturias
    28.61153788 Spanish_Andalusia
    28.75150779 Spanish_Aragon
    28.80539880 Spanish_La_Rioja
    29.26109191 Spanish_Valencia
    29.42986069 Spanish_Castilla-Leon
    30.23435132 Spanish_Cantabria
    30.30649270 Spanish_Basque
    30.50001967 Spanish_Catalonia
    30.61457496 Italian_Liguria
    30.77912442 Italian_Tuscany
    30.78215555 Italian_Lombardy
    30.81191166 Italian_Emilia
    30.83891211 Spanish_Galicia
    31.06791271 Spanish_Baleares
    31.13507026 French_Southwest
    31.37851654 Spanish_Canarias
    31.38383023 Portuguese
    32.13037504 Italian_Romagna
    32.70891781 Italian_Marche
    32.83147118 Italian_Piedmont
    33.27324995 Swiss_Italian
    34.20907190 Italian_Veneto



  3. #328
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
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    Ethnic group
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    Country: USA - New York



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Distance to: Middle_Late_Bronze_Age_Italy_(n=9)
    11.11572310 Spanish_Andalusia
    11.14206444 Spanish_Asturias
    11.31010610 Spanish_Valencia
    11.31709327 Spanish_Aragon
    11.56946412 Spanish_Castilla-Leon
    12.07579397 Spanish_La_Rioja
    12.41814801 Spanish_Catalonia
    12.58957505 Spanish_Cantabria
    12.89268009 Sardinian
    13.04998084 Spanish_Baleares
    13.19316869 Spanish_Galicia
    14.01243733 Portuguese
    14.48325585 French_Corsica
    14.90155361 Italian_Lombardy
    15.21770351 Spanish_Canarias
    15.35303227 French_Southwest
    15.82868283 Italian_Liguria
    16.05764654 Swiss_Italian
    16.53261927 Italian_Emilia
    16.64564508 Italian_Piedmont
    16.85534633 Italian_Aosta_Valley
    17.37253867 Italian_Tuscany
    17.84622929 Italian_Trentino
    18.19239127 Spanish_Basque
    18.27447947 Italian_Veneto


    Distance to: Chalcolithic_Italy_(n=5)
    6.14823552 Sardinian
    25.67103231 French_Corsica
    27.61752704 Spanish_Asturias
    28.61153788 Spanish_Andalusia
    28.75150779 Spanish_Aragon
    28.80539880 Spanish_La_Rioja
    29.26109191 Spanish_Valencia
    29.42986069 Spanish_Castilla-Leon
    30.23435132 Spanish_Cantabria
    30.30649270 Spanish_Basque
    30.50001967 Spanish_Catalonia
    30.61457496 Italian_Liguria
    30.77912442 Italian_Tuscany
    30.78215555 Italian_Lombardy
    30.81191166 Italian_Emilia
    30.83891211 Spanish_Galicia
    31.06791271 Spanish_Baleares
    31.13507026 French_Southwest
    31.37851654 Spanish_Canarias
    31.38383023 Portuguese
    32.13037504 Italian_Romagna
    32.70891781 Italian_Marche
    32.83147118 Italian_Piedmont
    33.27324995 Swiss_Italian
    34.20907190 Italian_Veneto


    Very interesting.

    The PCA presents a quite different way of looking at them.

    Latins are much closer to Cucuteni (and Middle Late Bronze Age Latins plot almost right on top of them) than they are to the North Alpine steppe admixed people. Looks like Etruscans and Villanovans are much the same story.

    Latins are also definitely closer to the Italian Middle Late Bronze Age samples than are the Etruscans and Villanovans, who are closer to modern Italians. (Except me, who gets up to 60% Latin on some of these. :))

    What is your interpretation of that? Could it be there are no samples from the western side of Italy?

    Also, where would Copper Age Italians be?

    Do you by chance have the individual coordinates for the Copper and Bronze Age samples? I always think in a country like Italy with so much internal diversity, averages are not always that helpful.

    Thanks in advance.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  4. #329
    Regular Member
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Z36

    Country: UK - Scotland



    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Distance to: Middle_Late_Bronze_Age_Italy_(n=9)
    11.11572310 Spanish_Andalusia
    11.14206444 Spanish_Asturias
    11.31010610 Spanish_Valencia
    11.31709327 Spanish_Aragon
    11.56946412 Spanish_Castilla-Leon
    12.07579397 Spanish_La_Rioja
    12.41814801 Spanish_Catalonia
    12.58957505 Spanish_Cantabria
    12.89268009 Sardinian
    13.04998084 Spanish_Baleares
    13.19316869 Spanish_Galicia
    14.01243733 Portuguese
    14.48325585 French_Corsica
    14.90155361 Italian_Lombardy
    15.21770351 Spanish_Canarias
    15.35303227 French_Southwest
    15.82868283 Italian_Liguria
    16.05764654 Swiss_Italian
    16.53261927 Italian_Emilia
    16.64564508 Italian_Piedmont
    16.85534633 Italian_Aosta_Valley
    17.37253867 Italian_Tuscany
    17.84622929 Italian_Trentino
    18.19239127 Spanish_Basque
    18.27447947 Italian_Veneto


    Distance to: Chalcolithic_Italy_(n=5)
    6.14823552 Sardinian
    25.67103231 French_Corsica
    27.61752704 Spanish_Asturias
    28.61153788 Spanish_Andalusia
    28.75150779 Spanish_Aragon
    28.80539880 Spanish_La_Rioja
    29.26109191 Spanish_Valencia
    29.42986069 Spanish_Castilla-Leon
    30.23435132 Spanish_Cantabria
    30.30649270 Spanish_Basque
    30.50001967 Spanish_Catalonia
    30.61457496 Italian_Liguria
    30.77912442 Italian_Tuscany
    30.78215555 Italian_Lombardy
    30.81191166 Italian_Emilia
    30.83891211 Spanish_Galicia
    31.06791271 Spanish_Baleares
    31.13507026 French_Southwest
    31.37851654 Spanish_Canarias
    31.38383023 Portuguese
    32.13037504 Italian_Romagna
    32.70891781 Italian_Marche
    32.83147118 Italian_Piedmont
    33.27324995 Swiss_Italian
    34.20907190 Italian_Veneto


    Is the dot for Bronze Age Illyrian halfway between Liguria and Piedmont or halfway between Liguria and Veneto?
    Thanks.

  5. #330
    Moderator Pax Augusta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    Is the dot for Bronze Age Illyrian halfway between Liguria and Piedmont or halfway between Liguria and Veneto?
    Thanks.

    Halfway between Liguria and Veneto/Piedmont.



  6. #331
    Regular Member Duarte's Avatar
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-DF27-FGC35133

    Ethnic group
    Portuguese-Brazilian
    Country: Brazil



    Distance to:
    Duarte
    6.17150711 Medieval_Catalonia_Valencia_(n=9)
    6.71266713 Roman_&_Visigothic_Iberia_(n=31)
    10.86048341 Etruscans_(n=3)
    11.27186764 Latins_(n=4)
    12.12435978 Villanovans_(n=2)
    13.33091895 Bell_Beaker_Hungary_(n=6)
    14.03098001 Bronze_Age_Illyrians
    14.05696980 Medieval_Andalusia_(n=14)
    14.07130058 Middle_Late_Bronze_Age_Italy_(n=9)
    14.52055095 Early_Bronze_Age_Southern_France_(n=5)
    14.84792915 Early_Bronze_Age_Iberia_(n=7)
    15.04884381 6th-century_Piedmont_(Italians_&_Lombards)_(n=24)
    15.13849068 Cucuteni-Trypillian_culture_(n=4)
    15.21667178 Middle_Bronze_Age_North_Alps_(n=7)
    15.30209790 Gauls_Belgae_(n=16)
    15.31625933 Iron_Age_Iberia_(n=22)
    16.25126149 Middle-Late_Bronze_Age_Spain_(n=38)
    16.54298643 Bell_Beaker_Poland_(n=6)
    16.76632041 Late_Medieval_Latium_(n=16)
    17.46561765 Early_Bronze_Age_Swabia_(n=24)
    17.48110694 Middle_Bronze_Age_Portugal_(n=4)
    18.85846229 Early_Medieval_Latium_(n=5)
    18.93396947 Bell_Beaker_Gaul_(n=13)
    20.69150309 Middle-Late_Bronze_Age_Hungary_(n=12)
    20.72670500 Late_Antiquity_Latium_(n=24)

    Some modeling including the two newest populations added to the data

    Target: Duarte
    Distance: 5.2625% / 5.26246695 | ADC: 0.25x RC
    76.7 Middle_Late_Bronze_Age_Italy_(n=9)
    11.4 Yamna_culture_(n=16)
    6.9 Epipaleolithic_Magreb_(Iberomaurusians)_(n=5)
    5.0 Mesolithic_West_Europeans_(WHG)_(n=21)

    Target: Duarte
    Distance: 4.8891% / 4.88909259
    58.2 Chalcolithic_Italy_(n=5)
    19.1 Mesolithic_West_Europeans_(WHG)_(n=21)
    16.5 Yamna_culture_(n=16)
    6.2 Epipaleolithic_Magreb_(Iberomaurusians)_(n=5)

    Some modelings with all updated data, post #2


    Target: Duarte
    Distance: 1.4792% / 1.47915960
    52.5 CA_Remedello_culture_(n=3)
    19.9 Neolithic_Latvia_(n=4)
    9.8 Epipaleolithic_Mesolithic_Caucasus_(CHG)_(n=2)
    8.9 Medieval_Andalusia_(n=14)
    7.2 Epipaleolithic_Magreb_(Iberomaurusians)_(n=5)
    1.7 Pre-Pottery_Neolithic_Iran_(n=6)

    Target: Duarte
    Distance: 1.7095% / 1.70947003 | R6P | ADC: 0.25x RC
    56.9 CA_Remedello_culture_(n=3)
    21.2 Neolithic_Latvia_(n=4)
    11.8 Epipaleolithic_Mesolithic_Caucasus_(CHG)_(n=2)
    8.8 Epipaleolithic_Magreb_(Iberomaurusians)_(n=5)
    1.3 Pre-Pottery_Neolithic_Iran_(n=6)


    Target: Duarte
    Distance: 2.0215% / 2.02148464 | R6P | ADC: 0.25x RC
    31.1 CA_Remedello_culture_(n=3)
    28.1 Latins_(n=4)
    15.5 Medieval_Andalusia_(n=14)
    13.2 Neolithic_Latvia_(n=4)
    6.3 Pre-Pottery_Neolithic_Iran_(n=6)
    5.8 Epipaleolithic_Magreb_(Iberomaurusians)_(n=5)


    Last edited by Duarte; 18-05-21 at 21:11.

  7. #332
    Regular Member Duarte's Avatar
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    Country: Brazil



    3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Very interesting.

    Do you by chance have the individual coordinates for the Copper and Bronze Age samples? I always think in a country like Italy with so much internal diversity, averages are not always that helpful.

    Thanks in advance.
    Hi Angela
    Produced by Jovialis and Salento in
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ancestry/page4

    utigBRC002,0.87,0,1.36,0,45.47,25.27,2.32,0,4.39,0 ,18.99,1.33
    utigBRC007_019,3.5,0,1.75,0.58,48.28,18.96,0,0,9.1 1,0.52,16.2,1.1
    utigBRC010_018,0,0,5.13,0.5,47.79,19.51,0,0,7.86,0 ,18.69,0.51
    utigBRC011,0,0,0,0,37.8,0,0,0,42.9,0,19.29,0
    utigBRC012,0,15.45,0,0,40.8,0,0,0,43.74,0,0,0
    utigBRC013,0,0,6.28,0,57.75,0,0,0,6.97,0,29,0
    utigBRC022,0,0,0,0.94,62.87,3.14,0,0,10.14,0,22.91 ,0
    utigBRC024,0,0,0,0,52.32,30.37,0,5.35,0,0,10.84,1. 12
    utigGCP003A1,7.58,1.55,0.86,0,49.29,22.95,0,0,4.32 ,0,13.45,0
    utigGCP004A1,22.15,0,0,0,37.5,23.7,6.64,0,10.01,0, 0,0
    utigGLR002A1,0,0,6.65,0,63.81,1.89,0,0,5.79,0,21.8 6,0
    utigGLR003B1,0,0,9.49,4.97,65.66,0,0,0,0,0,17.94,1 .93
    utigLSC007A1,0,0,0,0,95.95,0,0,0.6,3.45,0,0,0
    utigLSC011A1,0,0,8.94,0,53.32,7.47,0,0,14.31,0,15. 96,0
    utigLSC012A1,0,0,0,0,97.48,0,0,0,0,2.52,0,0
    BRC003_Dodecad_K12b,1.48,0.00,2.35,1.33,46.70,24.2 7,0.00,0.00,5.74,0.00,17.40,0.74
    GCP002A1_Dodecad_K12b,2.18,0.00,3.15,3.26,44.50,29 .77,0.00,0.00,5.27,0.00,11.87,0.00
    GLR001A1_Dodecad_K12b,0.00,1.77,4.40,0.00,58.27,5. 15,0.00,0.00,11.05,0.22,17.72,1.41
    LSC002_004_Dodecad_K12b,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,62.94, 2.45,0.00,0.00,6.28,0.00,26.23,2.11



    Mine

    Distance to:
    Duarte
    9.78898360 BRC003_Dodecad_K12b
    10.11679297 GCP002A1_Dodecad_K12b
    10.54973459 utigGCP003A1
    10.87721012 utigBRC002
    11.62877896 utigBRC007_019
    12.25319550 utigBRC010_018
    16.38538678 utigBRC024
    23.68935415 utigLSC011A1
    24.67529736 utigGCP004A1
    26.71058966 GLR001A1_Dodecad_K12b
    32.59964570 utigBRC022
    32.60495208 utigGLR002A1
    33.24604187 utigBRC013
    33.49170942 LSC002_004_Dodecad_K12b
    34.51189070 utigGLR003B1
    47.24747189 utigBRC011
    51.41298863 utigBRC012
    60.74051119 utigLSC007A1
    62.26290790 utigLSC012A1
    Distance to: Duarte
    7.53126382 21.00% utigGCP004A1 + 79.00% BRC003_Dodecad_K12b
    8.11202040 76.20% utigBRC002 + 23.80% utigGCP004A1
    8.31499918 72.00% utigBRC010_018 + 28.00% utigGCP004A1
    8.54466182 40.80% utigBRC007_019 + 59.20% GCP002A1_Dodecad_K12b
    8.72940168 13.80% utigBRC013 + 86.20% GCP002A1_Dodecad_K12b
    8.75125688 46.20% utigGCP003A1 + 53.80% GCP002A1_Dodecad_K12b
    8.75827398 37.20% utigBRC010_018 + 62.80% GCP002A1_Dodecad_K12b
    8.84896832 18.20% utigLSC011A1 + 81.80% GCP002A1_Dodecad_K12b
    8.93436886 12.40% utigGLR003B1 + 87.60% GCP002A1_Dodecad_K12b
    9.00518431 84.60% GCP002A1_Dodecad_K12b + 15.40% GLR001A1_Dodecad_K12b
    9.00632944 54.60% BRC003_Dodecad_K12b + 45.40% GCP002A1_Dodecad_K12b
    9.09246843 12.40% utigGLR002A1 + 87.60% GCP002A1_Dodecad_K12b
    9.21336624 88.60% GCP002A1_Dodecad_K12b + 11.40% LSC002_004_Dodecad_K12b
    9.22786930 39.00% utigGCP003A1 + 61.00% BRC003_Dodecad_K12b
    9.26411134 41.60% utigBRC002 + 58.40% GCP002A1_Dodecad_K12b
    9.35117135 14.40% utigGCP004A1 + 85.60% GCP002A1_Dodecad_K12b
    9.39754680 46.60% utigBRC002 + 53.40% utigGCP003A1
    9.44805055 10.40% utigBRC022 + 89.60% GCP002A1_Dodecad_K12b
    9.65572973 6.20% utigBRC011 + 93.80% GCP002A1_Dodecad_K12b
    9.73175521 35.40% utigBRC010_018 + 64.60% utigGCP003A1
    9.76378509 1.40% utigBRC012 + 98.60% BRC003_Dodecad_K12b
    9.76544611 9.80% utigBRC007_019 + 90.20% BRC003_Dodecad_K12b
    9.78148242 2.80% utigBRC024 + 97.20% BRC003_Dodecad_K12b
    9.84946161 4.40% utigBRC012 + 95.60% GCP002A1_Dodecad_K12b
    10.07168577 1.60% utigLSC007A1 + 98.40% GCP002A1_Dodecad_K12b







  8. #333
    Regular Member torzio's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-05-19
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    1,927

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 - SK1480
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a

    Ethnic group
    North Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I have added:

    - Chalcolithic Italy : closest to modern Sardinians (distance 6.1) and nobody else.

    - Middle/Late Bronze Age central and north Italy (added 5 samples for a total of 9) : most similar to modern Spaniards (distance between 11 and 13 depending on the region).

    Target: Torziok12b
    Distance: 0.2302% / 0.23020826
    19.9 Cucuteni-Trypillian_culture_(n=4)
    18.0 MBA_Sintashta_culture_(n=4)
    8.0 Early_Medieval_Czechs_(n=2)
    7.9 Iron_Age_Armenia_(n=7)
    7.4 Early_Neolithic_France_(n=4)
    6.2 Middle-Late_Bronze_Age_Hungary_(n=12)
    4.4 Minoan_Greece_(n=10)
    4.1 Chalcolithic_Bulgaria_(n=9)
    3.1 Chalcolithic_Anatolia_(n=35)
    2.7 Early_Neolithic_Italy_(n=10)
    2.7 Italian_Greeks_(n=2)
    2.7 Middle_Bronze_Age_Anatolia_(n=2)
    2.5 Bell_Beaker_Czechia_(n=15)
    2.3 Mesolithic_Anatolia_(AHG)_(n=1)
    2.1 Epipaleolithic_Mesolithic_Caucasus_(CHG)_(n=2)
    1.9 Neolithic_Lithuania_Narva_culture_(n=4)
    1.1 CA_Afanasievo_culture_(n=5)
    1.1 Late_Bronze_Age_North_Caucasus_(n=4)
    0.8 Globular_Amphora_culture_(n=6)
    0.7 Late_Bronze_Age_Israel_(n=3)
    0.4 Chalcolithic_Northwest_Caucasus_(n=3)



    Target: Torziok12b
    Distance: 1.0953% / 1.09528753 | ADC: 0.25x RC
    33.0 Bronze_Age_Illyrians
    27.4 Late_Medieval_Latium_(n=16)
    22.7 Bell_Beaker_Hungary_(n=6)
    16.9 6th-century_Piedmont_(Italians_&_Lombards)_(n=24)

    Distance to: Torziok12b
    5.32530750 Bronze_Age_Illyrians
    6.19887086 6th-century_Piedmont_(Italians_&_Lombards)_(n=24)
    6.46840011 Late_Medieval_Latium_(n=16)
    7.93611996 Villanovans_(n=2)
    8.83276287 Bell_Beaker_Hungary_(n=6)
    9.58380926 Medieval_Catalonia_Valencia_(n=9)
    9.76980041 Roman_&_Visigothic_Iberia_(n=31)
    11.45072923 Etruscans_(n=3)
    11.79564750 Early_Medieval_Latium_(n=5)
    13.59802927 Late_Antiquity_Latium_(n=24)
    13.72095113 Latins_(n=4)
    14.38534671 Middle_Bronze_Age_North_Alps_(n=7)
    14.46272104 Bell_Beaker_Poland_(n=6)
    14.51663529 Gauls_Belgae_(n=16)
    15.18951941 Medieval_Foggia_Apulia_(n=5)
    15.64978594 Western_Scythians_(n=28)
    16.26212471 Ostrogoths_(n=3)
    17.55391694 6th-century_Piedmont_(Italians_only)_(n=7)
    17.79364774 Medieval_Andalusia_(n=14)
    17.83940302 Bell_Beaker_Bavaria/Saxony_(n=20)
    18.06710824 Imperial-age_Marche_(n=2)
    18.08538360 Early_Bronze_Age_Swabia_(n=24)
    18.27350267 Bell_Beaker_Gaul_(n=13)
    18.80015160 Early_Bronze_Age_Southern_France_(n=5)
    19.50209220 Middle_Late_Bronze_Age_Italy_(n=9)
    Fathers mtdna ... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ... K1a4p
    Mum paternal line ... R1b-S8172
    Grandmum paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ... R1a-Z282

  9. #334
    Regular Member torzio's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-05-19
    Location
    Australia
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    1,927

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 - SK1480
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    You really can't understand that Proto-Villanovan is not an ethnicity but it is an archaeological material culture.
    you need to read all of it and see what I noted at the bottom

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duarte View Post
    Hi Angela
    Produced by Jovialis and Salento in
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ancestry/page4

    utigBRC002,0.87,0,1.36,0,45.47,25.27,2.32,0,4.39,0 ,18.99,1.33
    utigBRC007_019,3.5,0,1.75,0.58,48.28,18.96,0,0,9.1 1,0.52,16.2,1.1
    utigBRC010_018,0,0,5.13,0.5,47.79,19.51,0,0,7.86,0 ,18.69,0.51
    utigBRC011,0,0,0,0,37.8,0,0,0,42.9,0,19.29,0
    utigBRC012,0,15.45,0,0,40.8,0,0,0,43.74,0,0,0
    utigBRC013,0,0,6.28,0,57.75,0,0,0,6.97,0,29,0
    utigBRC022,0,0,0,0.94,62.87,3.14,0,0,10.14,0,22.91 ,0
    utigBRC024,0,0,0,0,52.32,30.37,0,5.35,0,0,10.84,1. 12
    utigGCP003A1,7.58,1.55,0.86,0,49.29,22.95,0,0,4.32 ,0,13.45,0
    utigGCP004A1,22.15,0,0,0,37.5,23.7,6.64,0,10.01,0, 0,0
    utigGLR002A1,0,0,6.65,0,63.81,1.89,0,0,5.79,0,21.8 6,0
    utigGLR003B1,0,0,9.49,4.97,65.66,0,0,0,0,0,17.94,1 .93
    utigLSC007A1,0,0,0,0,95.95,0,0,0.6,3.45,0,0,0
    utigLSC011A1,0,0,8.94,0,53.32,7.47,0,0,14.31,0,15. 96,0
    utigLSC012A1,0,0,0,0,97.48,0,0,0,0,2.52,0,0
    BRC003_Dodecad_K12b,1.48,0.00,2.35,1.33,46.70,24.2 7,0.00,0.00,5.74,0.00,17.40,0.74
    GCP002A1_Dodecad_K12b,2.18,0.00,3.15,3.26,44.50,29 .77,0.00,0.00,5.27,0.00,11.87,0.00
    GLR001A1_Dodecad_K12b,0.00,1.77,4.40,0.00,58.27,5. 15,0.00,0.00,11.05,0.22,17.72,1.41
    LSC002_004_Dodecad_K12b,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,62.94, 2.45,0.00,0.00,6.28,0.00,26.23,2.11



    Mine

    Distance to:
    Duarte
    9.78898360 BRC003_Dodecad_K12b
    10.11679297 GCP002A1_Dodecad_K12b
    10.54973459 utigGCP003A1
    10.87721012 utigBRC002
    11.62877896 utigBRC007_019
    12.25319550 utigBRC010_018
    16.38538678 utigBRC024
    23.68935415 utigLSC011A1
    24.67529736 utigGCP004A1
    26.71058966 GLR001A1_Dodecad_K12b
    32.59964570 utigBRC022
    32.60495208 utigGLR002A1
    33.24604187 utigBRC013
    33.49170942 LSC002_004_Dodecad_K12b
    34.51189070 utigGLR003B1
    47.24747189 utigBRC011
    51.41298863 utigBRC012
    60.74051119 utigLSC007A1
    62.26290790 utigLSC012A1
    Distance to: Duarte
    7.53126382 21.00% utigGCP004A1 + 79.00% BRC003_Dodecad_K12b
    8.11202040 76.20% utigBRC002 + 23.80% utigGCP004A1
    8.31499918 72.00% utigBRC010_018 + 28.00% utigGCP004A1
    8.54466182 40.80% utigBRC007_019 + 59.20% GCP002A1_Dodecad_K12b
    8.72940168 13.80% utigBRC013 + 86.20% GCP002A1_Dodecad_K12b
    8.75125688 46.20% utigGCP003A1 + 53.80% GCP002A1_Dodecad_K12b
    8.75827398 37.20% utigBRC010_018 + 62.80% GCP002A1_Dodecad_K12b
    8.84896832 18.20% utigLSC011A1 + 81.80% GCP002A1_Dodecad_K12b
    8.93436886 12.40% utigGLR003B1 + 87.60% GCP002A1_Dodecad_K12b
    9.00518431 84.60% GCP002A1_Dodecad_K12b + 15.40% GLR001A1_Dodecad_K12b
    9.00632944 54.60% BRC003_Dodecad_K12b + 45.40% GCP002A1_Dodecad_K12b
    9.09246843 12.40% utigGLR002A1 + 87.60% GCP002A1_Dodecad_K12b
    9.21336624 88.60% GCP002A1_Dodecad_K12b + 11.40% LSC002_004_Dodecad_K12b
    9.22786930 39.00% utigGCP003A1 + 61.00% BRC003_Dodecad_K12b
    9.26411134 41.60% utigBRC002 + 58.40% GCP002A1_Dodecad_K12b
    9.35117135 14.40% utigGCP004A1 + 85.60% GCP002A1_Dodecad_K12b
    9.39754680 46.60% utigBRC002 + 53.40% utigGCP003A1
    9.44805055 10.40% utigBRC022 + 89.60% GCP002A1_Dodecad_K12b
    9.65572973 6.20% utigBRC011 + 93.80% GCP002A1_Dodecad_K12b
    9.73175521 35.40% utigBRC010_018 + 64.60% utigGCP003A1
    9.76378509 1.40% utigBRC012 + 98.60% BRC003_Dodecad_K12b
    9.76544611 9.80% utigBRC007_019 + 90.20% BRC003_Dodecad_K12b
    9.78148242 2.80% utigBRC024 + 97.20% BRC003_Dodecad_K12b
    9.84946161 4.40% utigBRC012 + 95.60% GCP002A1_Dodecad_K12b
    10.07168577 1.60% utigLSC007A1 + 98.40% GCP002A1_Dodecad_K12b






    Thanks so much, Duarte; you're always a gentleman to me, like Jovialis. :)

    I'll run them.

  11. #336
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    I don't really believe these things, but this would make my father proud. :) He was completely convinced we were 100% Latins, so a little off, but still...



    Chalcolithic and Early Bronze Age Anatolia was nothing to sneeze at it either; founts of civilization both. Just miss the Greeks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Very interesting.

    The PCA presents a quite different way of looking at them.

    Latins are much closer to Cucuteni (and Middle Late Bronze Age Latins plot almost right on top of them) than they are to the North Alpine steppe admixed people. Looks like Etruscans and Villanovans are much the same story.

    Latins are also definitely closer to the Italian Middle Late Bronze Age samples than are the Etruscans and Villanovans, who are closer to modern Italians. (Except me, who gets up to 60% Latin on some of these. :))

    What is your interpretation of that? Could it be there are no samples from the western side of Italy?
    The Bronze Age samples are still too few to go into that much detail, in my opinion. For example, the two samples (Middle Bronze Age ca. 1400-1200 BC?) from Olmo di Nogara (Verona) - from a previous paper - have most likely less Steppe than the ones with Steppe from Broion and Regina Margherita who are older.

    For the Iron Age samples, it is true that there seems to be some difference between Latins and Etruscans, as if the Latins had a few more percentage points of WHG. But it must be considered that the average for the Latins is based on 4 out of 6, the two outliers are excluded and have been labeled Italian_Greeks. While the Etruscan average is based on all three of those from the Orientalizing phase and also includes the Etruscan outlier. While Villanovan average includes the Villanovan (which is simply an Etruscan) and the Proto-Villanovan which is a Proto-Picene, not a Proto-Etruscan.

    Putting all eleven Iron Age samples in the PCA, we see that three Latins and two Etruscans are actually very similar: Latins R1016, R1021, R851, Etruscan R473, Villanovan (Etruscan) R1015. The Latin R435 is the one that goes more in the direction of south of France and Spain, while the ones that are really most similar to the Italians are the Etruscan R474 and the Proto-Villanovan R1, because they have less WHG (but compensated with higher Steppe values)




    the outliers




    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Also, where would Copper Age Italians be?

    Do you by chance have the individual coordinates for the Copper and Bronze Age samples? I always think in a country like Italy with so much internal diversity, averages are not always that helpful.

    Thanks in advance.

    I will look up the individual coordinates for the Copper and Bronze Age and put them into the PCA.

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  14. #339
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Halfway between Liguria and Veneto/Piedmont.


    I find it interesting that the Bronze Age Illyrian sample is so North Shifted. Albeit it is in line with my worldview of the time.
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

    Franz Kafka

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    I find it interesting that the Bronze Age Illyrian sample is so North Shifted. Albeit it is in line with my worldview of the time.
    ps: Pax your PCA work and analysis is a great resource.

    Edit: meant to click edit post on my last one and somehow clicked reply.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    The Bronze Age samples are still too few to go into that much detail, in my opinion. For example, the two samples (Middle Bronze Age ca. 1400-1200 BC?) from Olmo di Nogara (Verona) - from a previous paper - have most likely less Steppe than the ones with Steppe from Broion and Regina Margherita who are older.

    For the Iron Age samples, it is true that there seems to be some difference between Latins and Etruscans, as if the Latins had a few more percentage points of WHG. But it must be considered that the average for the Latins is based on 4 out of 6, the two outliers are excluded and have been labeled Italian_Greeks. While the Etruscan average is based on all three of those from the Orientalizing phase and also includes the Etruscan outlier. While Villanovan average includes the Villanovan (which is simply an Etruscan) and the Proto-Villanovan which is a Proto-Picene, not a Proto-Etruscan.

    Putting all eleven Iron Age samples in the PCA, we see that three Latins and two Etruscans are actually very similar: Latins R1016, R1021, R851, Etruscan R473, Villanovan (Etruscan) R1015. The Latin R435 is the one that goes more in the direction of south of France and Spain, while the ones that are really most similar to the Italians are the Etruscan R474 and the Proto-Villanovan R1, because they have less WHG (but compensated with higher Steppe values)




    the outliers







    I will look up the individual coordinates for the Copper and Bronze Age and put them into the PCA.
    I'm out of juice but it's an excellent post. I guess I forgot my own warning that how you label a sample, into which group you put it, and using averages can give different results.

  17. #342
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Thanks. It helps me make sense of my own results. My closest Latin and "Etruscan" samples are R1016, R1015,and R474. Closest of all though are R1 and Illyrian Bronze, which is a whole other story. :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Thanks. It helps me make sense of my own results. My closest Latin and "Etruscan" samples are R1016, R1015,and R474. Closest of all though are R1 and Illyrian Bronze, which is a whole other story. :)
    Angela what are your thoughts on this article?

    https://indo-european.eu/2019/11/r1b...from-the-east/

    Do you think any of the many hypothesis the writer gives could be a reason for atusomal relatedness between modern Italians (North?) and these Balkan Bronze sample, or even those Szolad samples much later?
    Seen a lot of Italian members in the forum fall very close to these ancient Pannonian/ Balkan samples, and always wondered why.

    I had a lot of fun reading the article, but given I am really not read in the field of genetic archeology and anthropology maybe you and Pax can review whether the facts check out, and warn me not to fall for any biases the writer could have. Plus its quite an interesting read.

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    ... the "Italian_Greeks" is the average results of two Iron-Age LATINS, R437 (y R1b...) and R850 (y T1a1...)

    … call it Latin_Italians or Roman_Latins instead !!! … that’s where they’re from!

    … or else they should be added to the other Latins.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Angela what are your thoughts on this article?

    https://indo-european.eu/2019/11/r1b...from-the-east/
    It doesn't make much sense, speculations of a blogger that does not know very well the Italian prehistory, protohistory and Iron age. On the Etruscans he has sided from the beginning with the fringe theories and the scholars who do not enjoy a lot of credit. To bring up Sea Peoples is to talk about nothing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    It doesn't make much sense, speculations of a blogger that does not know very well the Italian prehistory, protohistory and Iron age. On the Etruscans he has sided from the beginning with the fringe theories and the scholars who do not enjoy a lot of credit. To bring up Sea Peoples is to talk about nothing.
    I see. Thanks.

    I thought he might be well informed, cause reading the article he echoed the same quote as you a couple of posts ago about proto Villanovans and Picentes, as opposed to Etruscans.

    And some of the other facts in the paper seemed to make sense with recent papers.
    Which parts should I be aware of as bias? I already am aware that the Asia Minor connections he argued earlier don't make much sense given the evidence. But the facts he brings about the Apennines/Rhaetians and Balkans/Pannonia and other Indo European movements make sense.

    Ps what is your thought, why do modern Northern Italians such as Tuscans and some others get close distances to these bronze age Balkan/Pannonian samples? What could explain it?

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    From Maciamo's last updates (#327).
    No substantial changes.

    Distance to: Dodecadk12bStuvanè
    2.44000000 Late_Medieval_Latium_(n=16)
    5.56800682 Early_Medieval_Latium_(n=5)
    5.98677710 Bronze_Age_Illyrians
    7.55611011 Late_Antiquity_Latium_(n=24)
    8.90949494 Medieval_Foggia_Apulia_(n=5)
    9.05316519 Villanovans_(n=2)
    11.05727815 Etruscans_(n=3)
    11.89520071 6th-century_Piedmont_(Italians_only)_(n=7)
    11.97150784 Imperial-age_Marche_(n=2)
    12.46981957 6th-century_Piedmont_(Italians_&_Lombards)_(n=24)
    12.65941547 Roman_&_Visigothic_Iberia_(n=31)
    14.29163392 Medieval_Catalonia_Valencia_(n=9)
    15.88332774 Bell_Beaker_Hungary_(n=6)
    16.57576846 Medieval_Andalusia_(n=14)
    16.98754544 Latins_(n=4)
    18.57900428 Western_Scythians_(n=28)
    19.17563558 Italian_Greeks_(n=2)
    19.70430156 EMBA_Greece_(n=6)
    20.27443217 Cucuteni-Trypillian_culture_(n=4)
    20.66584138 Middle_Late_Bronze_Age_Italy_(n=9)
    21.15670816 Mycenaean_Greece_(n=4)
    21.25037647 Gauls_Belgae_(n=16)
    21.28523432 Bronze_Age_Sicily_(n=15)
    21.49713004 Middle_Bronze_Age_North_Alps_(n=7)
    21.57357875 Bell_Beaker_Poland_(n=6)


    Distance to: Dodecadk12bStuvanè
    1.00751716 46.80% Middle-Late_Bronze_Age_Hungary_(n=12) + 53.20% Imperial-age_Latium_(East_Med_immigrants)_(n=46)
    1.21333868 86.80% Early_Medieval_Latium_(n=5) + 13.20% Avars_(n=2)
    1.31544663 8.00% Neolithic_Lithuania_Narva_culture_(n=4) + 92.00% Early_Medieval_Latium_(n=5)
    1.33787616 89.60% Early_Medieval_Latium_(n=5) + 10.40% Early_Medieval_Czechs_(n=2)
    1.38828111 9.20% Iron_Age_Estonia_(n=8) + 90.80% Early_Medieval_Latium_(n=5)
    1.39666581 87.20% Early_Medieval_Latium_(n=5) + 12.80% Vikings_from_Poland_(n=9)
    1.40308287 8.40% Baltic_Bronze_Age_(n=12) + 91.60% Early_Medieval_Latium_(n=5)
    1.40399532 86.60% Early_Medieval_Latium_(n=5) + 13.40% Vikings_from_Ukraine_(n=4)
    1.41632842 7.80% Mesolithic_Baltic_Scandinavia_(SHG)_(n=31) + 92.20% Early_Medieval_Latium_(n=5)
    1.41891825 90.00% Early_Medieval_Latium_(n=5) + 10.00% Medieval_Estonia_(n=7)
    1.43379052 8.40% Bronze_Age_Estonia_(n=16) + 91.60% Early_Medieval_Latium_(n=5)
    1.46155456 8.60% Mesolithic_Balkans_HG_(n=43) + 91.40% Early_Medieval_Latium_(n=5)
    1.51060219 58.20% Italian_Greeks_(n=2) + 41.80% Hallstatt_Celts_(n=2)
    1.53487951 31.60% Chalcolithic_Romania_(n=1) + 68.40% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)
    1.54010003 7.40% Neolithic_Ukraine_(n=12) + 92.60% Early_Medieval_Latium_(n=5)
    1.56920293 87.00% Early_Medieval_Latium_(n=5) + 13.00% Vikings_from_Russia_(n=15)
    1.57977958 42.00% Middle-Late_Bronze_Age_Hungary_(n=12) + 58.00% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)
    1.61842251 7.20% Mesolithic_Ukraine_(n=7) + 92.80% Early_Medieval_Latium_(n=5)
    1.69980595 12.60% EBA_Unetice_culture_(n=18) + 87.40% Early_Medieval_Latium_(n=5)
    1.71689479 11.60% Western_Corded_Ware_(n=17) + 88.40% Early_Medieval_Latium_(n=5)
    1.78727890 9.60% Mesolithic_West_Europeans_(WHG)_(n=21) + 90.40% Early_Medieval_Latium_(n=5)
    1.85385340 6.80% Mesolithic_Northwest_Russia_(n=4) + 93.20% Early_Medieval_Latium_(n=5)
    1.86953183 11.00% MBA_Sintashta_culture_(n=4) + 89.00% Early_Medieval_Latium_(n=5)
    1.87015744 6.60% Late_Mesolithic_Comb_Ceramic_culture_(n=2) + 93.40% Early_Medieval_Latium_(n=5)
    1.87425309 7.80% Neolithic_Latvia_(n=4) + 92.20% Early_Medieval_Latium_(n=5)

  23. #348
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    I see. Thanks.

    I thought he might be well informed, cause reading the article he echoed the same quote as you a couple of posts ago about proto Villanovans and Picentes, as opposed to Etruscans.

    And some of the other facts in the paper seemed to make sense with recent papers.
    Which parts should I be aware of as bias? I already am aware that the Asia Minor connections he argued earlier don't make much sense given the evidence. But the facts he brings about the Apennines/Rhaetians and Balkans/Pannonia and other Indo European movements make sense.
    It's is oversimplifying writing that the Italics came from the west (from where? France? Spain?) and the Etruscans from the east (from where? Veneto? Marche? Balkans? Pannonia? Siberia? Japan? Everything comes from the east, even Indo-Europeans, EEFs and hunter gatherers). Just as the concept of North-West Indo-European makes one smiles a lot, but it does exist in the scientific literature, I remember at least in Mallory.
    On this I suggest you to read this

    https://www.reddit.com/r/IndoEuropea...accepted_as_a/

    Particularly this. CQ does have a weirdo Western bias. Then there would be a discussion about how much Indo-European linguists like Adrados and Beekes have been overrated (and how many of their theories were very old and outdated). The damage done by Indo-European linguists is enormous. Just as other well-known amateur bloggers have a weirdo Eastern bias, let's be clear.




    Samples are few, and the interpretation of sample analysis cannot be separated from what other disciplines have been saying for years. Just as the concepts of ethnogenesis, cultural formation, self-identification and ethnic self-awareness must be taken into account.

    In both cases, in the case of the Latins and the Etruscans, the consensus is that they were formed in Italy where their ethnogenesis took place, and that only from the beginning of the Iron Age we can speak of Latin and Etruscan ethnicity.

    In the post Italics are being pitted against Etruscans, but the analyses in Antonio 2019 are primarily concerned with Latins except R1, not Italics. Italics is first of all a linguistic classification, and there is no consensus that Latin (or better, Latino-Faliscan) is an Italic language. Sometimes, instead, it happens to read that Latino-Faliscan is Western-Italic and Osco-Umbrian is Eastern-Italic. Strictly speaking only the Osco-Umbrian languages are considered truly Italic, with the idea that the Latino-Faliscan and the Osco-Umbrian group are two distinct IE linguistic groups and that any similarities are due to convergences of historical age due to numerous contacts. At present we do not know with certainty if Latino-Faliscan and Osco-Umbrian really descend from a common ancestor, when they split from this common ancestor, if they are languages arrived together or separate in Italy and they are really part of the Italo-Celtic family.

    Specific studies on the origins in prehistory and protohistory of the ancestors of the speakers of Latin-Faliscan and Osco-Umbrian languages are few (they were all too busy writing crap about the origins of the Etruscans). From time to time you will read that the Latin-Faliscan speakers are thought to have arrived before the Osco-Umbrians and yet both have some relationship to Middle-Danube Urnfield cultures. In older studies, however, they were both related to older archaeological cultures of Prehistoric Italy.

    I'll be back soon with another post, I'm busy right now.


    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Ps what is your thought, why do modern Northern Italians such as Tuscans and some others get close distances to these bronze age Balkan/Pannonian samples? What could explain it?

    Because in modern Northern Italians and Tuscans WHG has decreased (compared to CA/EBA samples) and clearly they have moved closer to bronze age Balkan/Pannonian samples. This can be due to multiple reasons. One is undoubtedly the continuous relations between Italy, which is at the center of the Mediterranean, and the Balkans since the prehistory.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    ... the "Italian_Greeks" is the average results of two Iron-Age LATINS, R437 (y R1b...) and R850 (y T1a1...)

    … call it Latin_Italians or Roman_Latins instead !!! … that’s where they’re from!

    … or else they should be added to the other Latins.

    You're right; all six of them are members of Latin tribes from the first millennium BC.

    For what it's worth, one model shows me as 65% Latin (the more "northern" four) plus 35% "Italian Greek". So, basically, a mix of the six Latins in the analysis.

    The two "Italian-Greeks" are just the Latins of the Republican period who show the progressive movement north of more "Greek like ancestry" imo. Doesn't stop them from being Latins. It just means they're a mix of the "older" perhaps Latin population and more Greek like ancestry.

    Either just call them Latins, or maybe "Latin-Greeks" at least.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    It's is oversimplifying writing that the Italics came from the west (from where? France? Spain?) and the Etruscans from the east (from where? Veneto? Marche? Balkans? Pannonia? Siberia? Japan? Everything comes from the east, even Indo-Europeans, EEFs and hunter gatherers). Just as the concept of North-West Indo-European makes one smiles a lot, but it does exist in the scientific literature, I remember at least in Mallory.
    On this I suggest you to read this

    https://www.reddit.com/r/IndoEuropea...accepted_as_a/

    Particularly this. CQ does have a weirdo Western bias. Then there would be a discussion about how much Indo-European linguists like Adrados and Beekes have been overrated (and how many of their theories were very old and outdated). The damage done by Indo-European linguists is enormous. Just as other well-known amateur bloggers have a weirdo Eastern bias, let's be clear.




    Samples are few, and the interpretation of sample analysis cannot be separated from what other disciplines have been saying for years. Just as the concepts of ethnogenesis, cultural formation, self-identification and ethnic self-awareness must be taken into account.

    In both cases, in the case of the Latins and the Etruscans, the consensus is that they were formed in Italy where their ethnogenesis took place, and that only from the beginning of the Iron Age we can speak of Latin and Etruscan ethnicity.

    In the post Italics are being pitted against Etruscans, but the analyses in Antonio 2019 are primarily concerned with Latins except R1, not Italics. Italics is first of all a linguistic classification, and there is no consensus that Latin (or better, Latino-Faliscan) is an Italic language. Sometimes, instead, it happens to read that Latino-Faliscan is Western-Italic and Osco-Umbrian is Eastern-Italic. Strictly speaking only the Osco-Umbrian languages are considered truly Italic, with the idea that the Latino-Faliscan and the Osco-Umbrian group are two distinct IE linguistic groups and that any similarities are due to convergences of historical age due to numerous contacts. At present we do not know with certainty if Latino-Faliscan and Osco-Umbrian really descend from a common ancestor, when they split from this common ancestor, if they are languages arrived together or separate in Italy and they are really part of the Italo-Celtic family.

    Specific studies on the origins in prehistory and protohistory of the ancestors of the speakers of Latin-Faliscan and Osco-Umbrian languages are few (they were all too busy writing crap about the origins of the Etruscans). From time to time you will read that the Latin-Faliscan speakers are thought to have arrived before the Osco-Umbrians and yet both have some relationship to Middle-Danube Urnfield cultures. In older studies, however, they were both related to older archaeological cultures of Prehistoric Italy.

    I'll be back soon with another post, I'm busy right now.





    Because in modern Northern Italians and Tuscans WHG has decreased (compared to CA/EBA samples) and clearly they have moved closer to bronze age Balkan/Pannonian samples. This can be due to multiple reasons. One is undoubtedly the continuous relations between Italy, which is at the center of the Mediterranean, and the Balkans since the prehistory.
    Osco-Umbrian is also known previously as Umbro-Sabellic or just Sabellic .............Umbrians are ancestors of the Samnites, Volsci, Sabines to name 3 major tribes.....they are associated with many more

    https://oxfordre.com/classics/view/1...9381135-e-4616

    meaning that in central and southern italy there was only 2 major "races" ......the 12 tribes of the Etruscans in the western part and the Umbri-Sabellic group in the eastern and southern part .............I have stated this many years ago

    you only need to check where the latins came from..............since they spent over 200 years under Etruscan rule, some scholars state they are an out-branch of etruscan.....I doubt we will ever find out

    in the North.............the Ligurians in the west and the 34 tribes of the Euganei in the east are the original people ..............I predict the Rhaeti are a Euganei tribe like the camuni or stoeni are, but had etruscan influence later since their language only appeared circa 600BC

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