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Thread: Female rulers in early bronze age Iberia

  1. #1
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    Female rulers in early bronze age Iberia

    “In Argaric society, at the time that elite women were buried with diadems, elite men were preferentially buried with a sword and a dagger. These men were buried with fewer personal ornaments than females of the same class, and in no case did these male-associated objects have an emblematic character. As such weapons were the most effective means of enforcing political decisions, certain men would have played an executive role, even though ideological legitimation as well as —perhaps—the government, lay in certain female hands.”

    https://www.ancient-origins.net/news...3HotrhsjgSE7Os

  2. #2
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    speaking about bronze age iberia
    this should be interesting paper

    The emerging Bronze Age (BA) of southeastern Iberia saw dramatic social changes. Late Copper Age (CA) settlements were abandoned in favor of hilltop sites, and collective graves were largely replaced by single or double burials with often distinctive grave goods indirectly reflecting a hierarchical social organization, as exemplified by the BA El Argar group. We explored this transition from a genomic viewpoint by tripling the amount of data available for this period. Concomitant with the rise of El Argar starting ~2200 cal BCE, we observe a complete turnover of Y-chromosome lineages along with the arrival of Steppe-related ancestry. This pattern is consistent with a founder effect in male lineages, supported by our finding that males shared more relatives at sites than females. However, simple two-source models do not find support in some El Argar groups, suggesting additional genetic contributions from the Mediterranean that could predate the Bronze Age

    source:
    https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB46907


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Argar



    p.s
    the invasion of r1b along with steppe in south iberia maybe ?
    ancestery :
    mostly western jewish here is the overlapp with south europe[U]

  3. #3
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Bam are out
    https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/vi...907?show=reads
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argaric_culture


    ALM002 = P312+
    ALM006 = DF27+ Z195+
    ALM007 = ZZ11+
    ALM014 = Z195+
    ALM017 = Z195+
    ALM016 = Z195+
    ALM020 = Z195+
    ALM025 = P312+
    ALM028 = Z195+
    ALM032 = Z195+
    ALM034 = Z195+
    ALM036 = Z195+
    ALM039 = Z195+
    ALM040 = P312+
    ALM041 = Z195+
    ALM046 = L51+
    ALM047 = P312+
    ALM049 = P311+
    ALM050 = Z195+
    ALM052 = Z195+
    ALM057 = L151+
    ALM058 = Z195+
    ALM063 = Z195+
    ALM064 = Z195+
    ALM069 = P312+
    ALM070 = Z195+
    ALM078 = P312+
    ALM080 = P312+
    ALM081 = Z195+
    BAS002 = P312+
    BAS018 = P312+
    BAS022 = P312+
    BAS023 = P312+
    BAS024 = P312+
    BAS025 = E1b1b1a1b1
    BAS026 = P312+
    CDM002 = G2a2b2a1a1c1a
    CDM004 = I2a1a2
    CDM006 = I2a1a1a1a1
    CDP002 = H2a1
    CDP003 = H2a1
    CPD006 = H2a1a
    CPD009 = H2a1a
    CLL001 = G2a2a1a3
    CLL003 = I2a1a1b2
    CLL004 = I2a1b1a1b2a
    CLL005 = I2a1a1b2
    CLL007 = L151+
    CLL008 = Likley female or very low quality.
    CLL009 = I2a1b1a2b2
    CLL011 = H2a1
    CMO002 = Z195+
    EFA006 = P312+
    EFA007 = Z195+
    EFA008 = Very low quality but likely R1b1a1b
    EFA009 = Very low quality but definitely R1b1a1b
    LHO001 = Z195+
    LHO002 = Z195+
    LOT001 = Very low quality but definitely R1b1a1b
    MDP001 = L51+
    MDP003 = P312+
    MMI004 = P312+
    MON016 = I2a1a2a1a
    MON017 = I2a1a1a1a1
    MON020 = I2a1a1a1a2a1
    MON029 = Definitely I2a1a1a, but highlights the dangers of looking at just one SNP because he also has a read of R-L23+
    MON033 = Very low quality but likely R1b1a1b
    MON036 = I2a1a1a
    PUC002 = Z195+
    ZAP002 = Z195+ > Z296+ > Z268+ > A7066+ > BY32727+


    p.s
    i see 1 fell under e-v68 branch like i expected ( lets remember bell beaker iberia and chl sardinia)
    but i think he was e-L618 fascinating
    Last edited by kingjohn; 15-11-21 at 00:00.

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    Is he E-V13 positive or negative? Anyone can check?

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Is he E-V13 positive or negative? Anyone can check?
    richard rocca checked him farther his answere

    Probably an Iberomaurusian descendant. His E1b1b1a1b1 level derived & ancestral calls:

    CTS1773+
    CTS1975+
    CTS2003+
    CTS3287+
    CTS3728+
    CTS4638+
    CTS5291+
    CTS5527+
    CTS6598+
    CTS9086+
    CTS9223+
    FGC11427+
    L618+
    PF2215+
    PF2221+
    PF2246+

    CTS10084-
    CTS11813-
    CTS12527-
    CTS1273-
    CTS1408-
    CTS2374-
    CTS2382-
    CTS3207-
    CTS3726-
    CTS4993-
    CTS5856-
    CTS5935-
    CTS6229-
    CTS7237-
    CTS7315-
    CTS8814-
    PF2222-
    Z1896-

  6. #6
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    richard rocca checked him farther his answere

    Probably an Iberomaurusian descendant. His E1b1b1a1b1 level derived & ancestral calls:

    CTS1773+
    CTS1975+
    CTS2003+
    CTS3287+
    CTS3728+
    CTS4638+
    CTS5291+
    CTS5527+
    CTS6598+
    CTS9086+
    CTS9223+
    FGC11427+
    L618+
    PF2215+
    PF2221+
    PF2246+

    CTS10084-
    CTS11813-
    CTS12527-
    CTS1273-
    CTS1408-
    CTS2374-
    CTS2382-
    CTS3207-
    CTS3726-
    CTS4993-
    CTS5856-
    CTS5935-
    CTS6229-
    CTS7237-
    CTS7315-
    CTS8814-
    PF2222-
    Z1896-
    Some other would be better to check him. I will check on github for some tools anyway, it shouldn't be so hard, they probably just run the BAM file and check all these code conventions.

  7. #7
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    I'm more interested in what kind of earlier "Mediterranean" ancestry they're talking about. I never thought the El Argar archaeology showed the arrival of steppe people, but rather something from the eastern Mediterranean. That ancestry they hint at could be the reason, with the steppe people not building the structures but just taking them over. However, what was their yDna in that case?


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I'm more interested in what kind of earlier "Mediterranean" ancestry they're talking about. I never thought the El Argar archaeology showed the arrival of steppe people, but rather something from the eastern Mediterranean. That ancestry they hint at could be the reason, with the steppe people not building the structures but just taking them over. However, what was their yDna in that case?
    i think for that we need to wait for the full paper published
    about the steppe i think it came with some branches of r1b but we will wait





    interesting culture

    https://www.ancientpages.com/2020/11...eeth-as-tools/



    p.s
    also i want to see the mtdna types some respect for the ladies
    Last edited by kingjohn; 15-11-21 at 02:11.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Some other would be better to check him. I will check on github for some tools anyway, it shouldn't be so hard, they probably just run the BAM file and check all these code conventions.

    pribislav

    BAS025 is L618>pre-CTS10912


    CTS10912 level: PF2126/CTS1975+ G>A (2A); PF2252- G>A (5G)


    All SNPs at L618 level are derived, and all SNPs at levels below CTS10912 (BY6578, Y182141 and V13) are ancestral.




    likely this place: http://www.la-bastida.com/LaBastida/

  10. #10
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    i think for that we need to wait for the full paper published
    about the steppe i think it came with some branches of r1b but we will wait





    interesting culture

    https://www.ancientpages.com/2020/11...eeth-as-tools/



    p.s
    also i want to see the mtdna types some respect for the ladies
    I meant what was the ydna of the Eastern Mediterranean people they mention. Clearly, it was mostly wiped out, so unless we get lucky with a sample in a later paper I guess we'll never know.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I'm more interested in what kind of earlier "Mediterranean" ancestry they're talking about. I never thought the El Argar archaeology showed the arrival of steppe people, but rather something from the eastern Mediterranean. That ancestry they hint at could be the reason, with the steppe people not building the structures but just taking them over. However, what was their yDna in that case?
    I agree. There has been an evolution in situ by time, and the first signals of external input (archeology) pointed rather to Helladic cultures from around Egea sea. If some Steppe genetic input is found, I would know in what proportions; I wonder if this would not be the case of a uniquely male introgression linked to mercenaries (young males gangs spearated from the bulk of their tribes, as it occurred several times at those periods). Only a guess, it's true. It would explain for a part a dichotomy between Y haplo's and linguistic in some places of Iberia.

  12. #12
    Regular Member kingjohn's Avatar
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    we see in this list i posted above from richard rocca
    that y haplogroup H was present
    maybe it has some connection to it anyway it was spread in iberia
    in not shy numbers back in time maybe it is just a remmants from the neolithic farmers of iberia
    and i am reading it wrong

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/H-P96/

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