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Thread: Biogeographic Origins of Iron Age Iapygians & Working-Class Romans from South Itay

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    Biogeographic Origins of Iron Age Iapygians & Working-Class Romans from South Itay

    Anyone know where we can find these Iapygian samples?

    https://macsphere.mcmaster.ca/bitstr...mery_Final.pdf

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    Interestingly, this dissertation has samples that were also mentioned in Antonio M. et al. 2019; which are Iapygians:


    Iron Age and Roman Republic (900-27 BCE; n=11)

    Among the 11 Iron Age and Roman Republic individuals in the time-series reported here, themitochondrial haplogroups H (n=5, 45%), I (n=2), K (n=1), U (n=1), and T (n=2) are represented. In astudy of 15 individuals from Botromagno, in southern Italy, from the same time period (800-500 BCE),Emery et. al. found similar frequencies of the H haplogroup, at ~46% (7/15 individuals) (64). In contrastto Iron Age individuals studied here, the U haplogroup was found at much higher levels in Botromagnoindividuals, at 40% (6/15 individuals). Among the Botromagno Iron Age individuals, haplogroups V andJ (both n = 1) were also represented, however they were not present in any of the 11 Iron Age individualsreported here.

    https://science.sciencemag.org/conte...Antonio_SM.pdf
    Last edited by Jovialis; 16-03-21 at 22:42.

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    Unfortunately, uniparental studies, unlike autosomal ones, require lots and lots of samples, which they don't have here, so I have to keep that in mind when I reread this a couple of times and have to decide whether I agree with their conclusions or
    not.

    By the way, this is the area in question. Gravina is where the Botromagno site is located.

    This is the graphic of the mtDna they provided:


    The presence of mtDna U and the fact it's not present in the other sample might be important; It depends how many U's there were among the 15.

    As for the Vagnari Roman MtDna, I guess he's using the X and D to show minor change during the Roman Era? It's indisputable that with the incorporation of the south colonies were located there of soldiers from the north and center, but how much. What I really want to know is how these samples compare to the Antonio et al Iron Age and Imperial samples, and the later samples as well, such as the "Italian-Greeks". I don't know if he did that. I also want to know how these samples he has compare to those of Greeks from the cities. Finally, as I've said over and over again, I'm unaware of any migration specifically from Armenia to anywhere in Italy. If it arrived, it had to have been part of an Anatolian migration that then went to the Aegean, or one that went directly to southern Italy? Considering the Greek contacts he discusses, does he consider the change had more to do with arrivals from Anatolia and the Aegean and the Greeks than from migration from Central Italy. I also want to see if he mentions the year of these colonies in Puglia.

    Taken together, population pairwise ΦST, and the distribution of mtDNA haplotypes in relation to the comparative mtDNA data set show that the Iron Age southern Italians likely descended from early to late Neolithic farmers from Anatolia and possibly as far East as the Caucasus, and from migrants arriving from eastern Europe around the late Neolithic/early Bronze Age. These findings support previous hypotheses that the ancestors of the Iapygians may have originated in the eastern Balkan region, or derive shared ancestry with a common source population from eastern Europe. Alternatively, southern Italian Iron Age mtDNA variation might also reflect LGM gene flow between southwestern European, Mediterranean, and Carpathian basin refugia, which was suggested for haplogroup subclusters of U5 and J (Malyarchuk et al., 2010; Pala et al., 2012). Future mtDNA (and nuclear DNA) analysis comprised of a larger Iron Age data set from southern Italy is necessary to answer Theodor Mommsen’s initial hypothesis that the Iapygians were the oldest immigrants to the southern Italian region.

    Our investigation provides the first mtDNA evidence for the maternal ancestral affiliations of a subset of the Iapygian individuals recovered from southern Italy, and suggests a closer genetic link to European Neolithic and Iron Age Armenians, than to Bronze Age Aegeans. Future comparative ancient DNA data using whole-genome SNP, mtDNA, and NRY-chromosome analysis of pre-Roman populations will provide complementary evidence for the ancestral roots of understudied Iron Age individuals from Italy.






    Does this mtDna change shone in the graph prove this? Why, because of the D?

    Does anybody have the mtDna for the Antonio et al Iron Age and Republic and then the rest as a group by period, i.e. Early Empire vs Late Empire.


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    Surprising how many colonies there were in Greece and Spain, more than in Southern Italy.


    Roman Vagnari dates to the Augustan period.

    https://www.academia.edu/37978574/In...6_2018_333_337

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    ^^Puglia and Campania seem to have a respectable amount of Roman colonies.

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    However Vagnari demonstrated that the majority of the people were local natives. Not foreigners, with the small exception, which included an east Asian, I recall.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    ^^Puglia and Campania seem to have a respectable amount of Roman colonies.
    Yes, much less than Calabria and Sicilia, which had a lot of Greek colonies.

    As for the paper itself I'm going to go over it again tonight, but it seems like "Much Ado About Nothing", in other words, huge claims not borne out by their own dna.

    If anyone can point me to good proof in the paper for what they claim, I'd welcome it.

    Ed. "much more" than Calabria and Sicilia
    Last edited by Angela; 17-03-21 at 00:42.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Anyone know where we can find these Iapygian samples?

    https://macsphere.mcmaster.ca/bitstr...mery_Final.pdf

    They only speak about the Illyria-speaking Peucetians,

    The Daunii where the largest group , also Iapygian ( Illyrians ) ...........do you not have anything for these people ?

    BTW, the third group the Messapics are the smallest of the three tribes of Iapygian
    Fathers mtdna ... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ... K1a4p
    Mum paternal line ... R1b-S8172
    Grandmum paternal side ... I1-Y33791
    Wife paternal line ... R1a-Z282

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    They only speak about the Illyria-speaking Peucetians,

    The Daunii where the largest group , also Iapygian ( Illyrians ) ...........do you not have anything for these people ?

    BTW, the third group the Messapics are the smallest of the three tribes of Iapygian
    Peucetians are an interest to me particularly, since they lived in my ancestral area of Italy.



    Peucetians women from the Tomb of the Dancers in Ruvo di Puglia.



    Iron Age Botromagno is in their territory.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    However Vagnari demonstrated that the majority of the people were local natives. Not foreigners, with the small exception, which included an east Asian, I recall.
    Here is an image I took from the issue of Archeology that featured Imperial era Vagnari. Other than the two outliers, they relied heavily on the local population :

    Last edited by Jovialis; 17-03-21 at 15:09.

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    I think it is possible those exotic remains could have been tradesmen who could have died abroad. Though it is fascinating to see connections with distant civilizations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Yes, much less than Calabria and Sicilia, which had a lot of Greek colonies.
    As for the paper itself I'm going to go over it again tonight, but it seems like "Much Ado About Nothing", in other words, huge claims not borne out by their own dna.
    If anyone can point me to good proof in the paper for what they claim, I'd welcome it.
    Ed. "much more" than Calabria and Sicilia
    There is also the geographic aspect of what is tenable for urban development. I see there is a lot of mountainous spaces. The Greek colonies are relatively few, as well, but I think they were densely populated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Peucetians are an interest to me particularly, since they lived in my ancestral area of Italy.



    Peucetians women from the Tomb of the Dancers in Ruvo di Puglia.



    Iron Age Botromagno is in their territory.


    History says the Peucetains arrived with their Daunii around Foggia and started to absorb the Italic tribes there as well as moving south towards the heel of Italy......this was about circa 1000BC ................same time as the liburnians took Corfu as a colony as well as Picene lands ( Marche ) as colonies

    You should check the Daunii on the internet to see if there is a reference to your peucetains

    They only traded with Corfu ( Liburnian then Corinthian from 700bc ) and Butrint ( Epirote town and lands ) on the balkan side, other trades where with Italic tribes



    In Iapyges was of unknown origin, but all the facts point to be Illyrian tribe.
    They spoke the Messapian language with the Messapians themselves were the southernmost of the tribe of the Iapyges. Their other tribes included the Daunians and Peucetians.

    The name Iapyges is derived from Greek authors who linked the tribes origin Daedaluss son Iapyx. They were called Apuli, Salento, Calabri and Sallentini or Roman authors. Iapygians were akin to the Oenotrians, an ancient Italic people who lived in Northern Basilicata and Calabria.
    The genitive forms, -aihi - and -IHI - corresponding to the Sanskrit -Asya - and the Greek-OIO-, indicate that the dialect belongs to the Indo-European family. Other signs, such as the use of aspirated consonants, avoiding of the letters M and t as terminal sounds, show that the Iapygian dialect is significantly different from Italian and corresponds in some respects to the Greek dialects.
    The hypothesis of a particularly close proximity between the Iapygian nation and the Hellenes finds further support in the frequent occurrence of names of Greek gods in the inscriptions and the surprising facility with which that people became Hellenized, presenting a striking contrast to the shyness in the respect of the other Italian States. Apulia, which at the time timey 400 BC was still described as a barbarous land, already in the sixth century become a province thoroughly Greek, although no direct colonization from Greece had taken place.
    German historian of the 19th century, Theodor Mommsen believed that the Iapygian people were either old immigrants or the historical aborigines of Italy.

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    I presume you are getting further info from

    https://www.researchgate.net/publica..._Centuries_BCE

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    maybe you need to check all 3 tribes

    https://www.academia.edu/33341054/Il...s_and_a_helmet


    https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/....1957.11659644


    https://edisciplinas.usp.br/pluginfi...Messapians.pdf


    there is too many articles on these people in english and italian ...........you need to do your own research

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