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Thread: "WOKE" America

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur 2 View Post
    I don't see how Germany and the Netherlands profit from this.
    It is rather the other way around.
    It helps the countries with a weak economy or a large debt or deficit to finance themselves at better rates.
    Because the currency is kept low, compared to the competitive position...So the euro would be higher without Italy, less export for the Netherlands. So the price of our export products is kept low by this.

    By the way a country as the Netherlands exports 25 billion euro to Italy and imports 15 billion from Italy.

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    EU countries are vassals of Brussels, and Brussels is a vassal of U.S. Democrats.

    Nothing will change, unless it starts here in the USA.



    Biden thinks 50% of his own country is the enemy.

    The hypocrisy in his speech is unreal, it is almost comical.

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    "L'Europe des nations" (based on common Christian values) died probably with Adenauer and de Gaulle. After that it was hijacked by certain "elites" ,trying to convert it to some monstrous bureaucratic federalist structure.
    Impudently they keep throwing around the names of de Gasperi, Schuman and the others who would be appalled to see what it looks nowadays.

    If anybody has a problem with Оrban...well, the Hungarian people chose him. I do not think the Hungarians (and most of EE) would cry if the EU seized to exist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    If Italy goes on a collision course in Europe and winks more at Orban and Putin, I would have no problem with Italy leaving the EU. I would see more in a smaller EU anyway. Italy is unstable, has a weak economy and a sky-high government debt. Why show solidarity if it is not mutual?

    Yes but my statement was also for the sake of the discussion. I sincerely believe that Italy is one of the European founding members and is quit crucial.

    The Euro is for countries like Germany and the Netherlands in fact to weak and for Italy too strong. So in fact Germany and the Netherlands have profit of it. And the gigantic debts of Italy are an heritage of the Italian Christian Democrats in the eighties....

    I don't know an easy solution for it all (separate currencies how real is that?). And in fact is that the European economies are quit entangled.

    Anyhow an Urban course is the worst thing that could happen. He is totally corrupt and the trias politica has gone down the toilet in Hungary. I'm no fan of EU bureaucracy but this would mean even worse.....
    Couldn't agree more with you.

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    I've been saying for ten years, and even before I started posting here that the EU and the Euro have been a disaster for Italy and other Southern European countries, impoverishing them and enriching counties like Germany at their expense. Italy should go back to the Lira. Let it find its level. Its products would become much more attractive, and its local industries would hopefully be re-invigorated. Nuclear energy is an impossibility in most of Italy, but perhaps some of the newer technology on the horizon will be the answer, or they'll forever be hostage to other countries.

    However, for the reasons which Stuvane so clearly delineated, I doubt that will happen; they're still in thrall to this idea that the EU is modern, and nationalism is a dirty word.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I've been saying for ten years, and even before I started posting here that the EU and the Euro have been a disaster for Italy and other Southern European countries, impoverishing them and enriching counties like Germany at their expense. Italy should go back to the Lira. Let it find its level. Its products would become much more attractive, and its local industries would hopefully be re-invigorated. Nuclear energy is an impossibility in most of Italy, but perhaps some of the newer technology on the horizon will be the answer, or they'll forever be hostage to other countries.

    However, for the reasons which Stuvane so clearly delineated, I doubt that will happen; they're still in thrall to this idea that the EU is modern, and nationalism is a dirty word.
    What would back to the Lira solve? Italians were always very pro- Europe. They are one of the founding fathers of the EU.

    The interaction with the other European countries is intensive. So a split would be very destabilizing for Europe (likely a bigger effect than the Brexit) as a whole but specific for Italy. May be exaggerated but a failed state can't be excluded....

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    Who cares if they are founding fathers? That is purely sentimental.

    If Meloni gets elected, she should get very tough on corruption, and the mafia. You say she's like Mussolini, well I hope she eliminates the mafia like he did. The reason why Italy is a "poor" and "weak" country, is because those people were released from prison, and given positions of authority during the reconstruction of the country. Otherwise, Italy would be doing just fine, like Germany and Japan in the Post-WWII era. Italian-Americans, (vast majority of them come from the South too) have one of the highest incomes of any other ethnic group in the USA.

    List of ethnic groups in the United States by household income - Wikipedia

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    EU countries are vassals of Brussels, and Brussels is a vassal of U.S. Democrats.

    Nothing will change, unless it starts here in the USA.



    Biden thinks 50% of his own country is the enemy.

    The hypocrisy in his speech is unreal, it is almost comical.
    Is it the 50% of the country that tried to nullify the 2020 election? the 50% that participated or cheered the insurrection? The ones that chased off poll workers by threatening them and their families? Yes that 50% is the enemy of democracy and should be shunned (although it's probably 40-43%). Until the pubs repudiate trumpism, right wing extremism, politicizing the courts I will think of them as the enemy of democracy. The best way for the old style republicans to do that is to split the party into 2. The law abiding party and the fascist/Trumpian party. Yeah they might lose a few elections but they will emerge healthier in the end.

    Just in case you think I don't criticize the other party, I have plenty of criticism for them also.

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    Jovialis/Angela: I also think Italy should leave the EU as it has been nothing but a puppet organization run by the likes of Merkel and Macron. This illegal migration issue is largely the result of the likes of the EU, Merkel and Macron to ensure cheap labor for the Corporate interest in Europe, all under the guise of some other reason.

    I have said this on other blogs or Youtube chats when talking to American-Italians and Italians themselves and said the same thing to Italians when I have visited there.

    If Meloni wins, first thing she needs to do (she already has) is firmly recommit Italy to being a steadfast NATO member (Italy was one of the original 12 founding members). If she does that she can use these factual data

    1) Italy is where the USA has the 2nd Most active Military stationed (see Link 1). Hence Italy is giving the USA strategic bases to not only support NATO security, but also for the USA to deal with terrorism in the Middle East, North Africa and beyond.

    2) Italy's strategic location is why as part of its NATO force structure, it largest NAVAL presence is in Italy. It has 3 major facilities in Naples and 1 in Sigonella in Sicily. Thus Italy's strategic location in the Mediterranean is itself an important geographical Asset that Italy has since from Italy, the USA Naval presence can be projected across the Mediterranean to the West to the Straight of Gibraltar to the East into the Levant, Iran, Middle East.

    Link 1

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/...urope-country/

    Link 2

    https://www.navyadvancement.com/navy...s-overseas.php

    So if Meloni wins her party comes out uses Italy's historical ties, its commitment to NATO and the fact that the USA has in Italy, a Force structure only 2nd to Germany. Germany in my view should be drawn down even more given much of direct Anti-Americanism found there and moved to say the UK, etc. While there might be some non Pro American sentiments in Italy (usually among the former Red types), at least it for the most part is either Pro American or at least not Anti-American as in some of the other countries, France, Germany in particular.

    Once Meloni stresses Italy's commitment and role in NATO as America's loyal and supportive NATO partner, she then can pivot on the EU question and move to get Italy out of the EU and Italy can then set its on policies on domestic issues and immigration based on what Italian voters want, not what the EU oligarchs want.

    Italy is given Putin's moves can also leverage the fact that there are already existing pipelines from North Africa coming into Sicily. Nigeria has agreed with Morocco to Spain. There are already pipelines into Italy from I think Libya. Italy again using its important as a NATO member can on its own accord and given its geographic advantage negotiate with North African countries to link up gas supplies from there and tie them to the Middle East and countries like Nigeria (Merkel was doing that independently with Putin and Trump called her out on it and the EU got ticked at Trump for pointing that out, I have a long memory).

    Meloni can work with Greece, the Balkans states and the EU skeptic Eastern Europeans and link the pipelines that are already in Italy coming from North Africa. Work with those other Southern European countries (Greece should be a natural ally with Italy) and the Balkans and Eastern European countries and make Italy a major gas distribution hub to South East Europe and Eastern Europe. The Energy supply link through Italy to the Southeast European and Eastern European countries could also be negotiated through the lens of not only economic security for Italy and its SE European and Eastern European business partners (Gas pipelines) but also a NATO joint defense issue (which again Italy has lots of political capital given its major strategic importance to the USA's overseas force structure)

    https://en.populationdata.net/maps/a...gas-pipelines/


    My quick take and assessment and lastly "Vai Giorgia Meloni"

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Is it the 50% of the country that tried to nullify the 2020 election? the 50% that participated or cheered the insurrection? The ones that chased off poll workers by threatening them and their families? Yes that 50% is the enemy of democracy and should be shunned (although it's probably 40-43%). Until the pubs repudiate trumpism, right wing extremism, politicizing the courts I will think of them as the enemy of democracy. The best way for the old style republicans to do that is to split the party into 2. The law abiding party and the fascist/Trumpian party. Yeah they might lose a few elections but they will emerge healthier in the end.

    Just in case you think I don't criticize the other party, I have plenty of criticism for them also.
    Democrat hatred of the law in a tangible way. This low life represents the values of your party:

    Hatchet-wielding New York man released without bail (nbcnews.com)

    You should go give Alvin Bragg a pat on the back Bigsnake, this is what woke policy looks like. NYC is a shit hole because of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Is it the 50% of the country that tried to nullify the 2020 election? the 50% that participated or cheered the insurrection? The ones that chased off poll workers by threatening them and their families? Yes that 50% is the enemy of democracy and should be shunned (although it's probably 40-43%). Until the pubs repudiate trumpism, right wing extremism, politicizing the courts I will think of them as the enemy of democracy. The best way for the old style republicans to do that is to split the party into 2. The law abiding party and the fascist/Trumpian party. Yeah they might lose a few elections but they will emerge healthier in the end.

    Just in case you think I don't criticize the other party, I have plenty of criticism for them also.
    Do you have any idea how offensive it is to call Republicans "PUBS"?

    I'm a registered Republican. I never tried to nullify the 2020 election. I never participated in or cheered the riot in the White House. I never chased off any poll workers. Neither did the vast majority of the half of the country which has consistently voted Republican. I couldn't even bring myself to vote for Trump, but I haven't voted Democrat for probably twenty years. I wish that weren't true, but imo, as a party, they've been taken over by people committed to policies which I think are destructive not only of our economy but of our social fabric.

    I never, however, spew hatred at every person who votes Democrat. They may be uninformed, or irrational, or misguided imo, but the majority of them are well intentioned even if I think they are wrong. The people at the extremes always tend to be whackos, left or right. I never assume that every person who voted for Joe Biden is one of them and is some nefarious political operative out to deliberately destroy the Republic.

    On the other hand, every time you open your mouth on political matters you do nothing but spew vitriolic hate, make personal attacks, and grossly exaggerate and distort reality.

    I'm done with you. There's no reasonable discussion to be had with you, and certainly nothing to learn.

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    It is no use talking to an NPC, Angela. I'm sure if the democrats told him to jump off a building, he would do it for the sake of equity, inclusion, and diversity.

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    @Palermo,

    The only problem with that energy policy, Palermo, is that we would then be dependent on the Middle Eastern countries, as Northern Europe made itself dependent on Putin.

    I've been reading for a long time on this issue and trying to find some way out of this bind for Italy. I know nuclear power is anathema to most Italians, and given our geology is an impossibility in most of the country in terms of setting up plants. I thought perhaps somewhere in the Pianura Padana, but that is our bread basket and water supply, and any accident would be an unimaginable disaster. Perhaps somewhere very close to the Alps?

    I'll admit I'm stumped.

    There's also the problem of China. Since at least the Renaissance a lot of our economy has been based on importing raw materials, and through creativity and design sense, turning them into something worth much more than the cost of the material itself, the so-called value added principle. With China turning out cheap copies by the millions, how long will "Made in Italy" work for us?

    There is also, as you and Jovialis have pointed out, the problem of the Mafia. They must be excised from the body politic, root and branch, but it will be more difficult than it was for Mussolini, because they have moved north and satellites can now be found everywhere, not to mention that Mussolini was not constrained by considerations of due process.

    If anyone wants to succeed, they must also, imo, take a scythe to many of the ridiculous laws which stifle free enterprise.

    It's a tall order; I don't know who is capable of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    Jovialis/Angela: I also think Italy should leave the EU as it has been nothing but a puppet organization run by the likes of Merkel and Macron. This illegal migration issue is largely the result of the likes of the EU, Merkel and Macron to ensure cheap labor for the Corporate interest in Europe, all under the guise of some other reason.

    I have said this on other blogs or Youtube chats when talking to American-Italians and Italians themselves and said the same thing to Italians when I have visited there.

    If Meloni wins, first thing she needs to do (she already has) is firmly recommit Italy to being a steadfast NATO member (Italy was one of the original 12 founding members). If she does that she can use these factual data

    1) Italy is where the USA has the 2nd Most active Military stationed (see Link 1). Hence Italy is giving the USA strategic bases to not only support NATO security, but also for the USA to deal with terrorism in the Middle East, North Africa and beyond.

    2) Italy's strategic location is why as part of its NATO force structure, it largest NAVAL presence is in Italy. It has 3 major facilities in Naples and 1 in Sigonella in Sicily. Thus Italy's strategic location in the Mediterranean is itself an important geographical Asset that Italy has since from Italy, the USA Naval presence can be projected across the Mediterranean to the West to the Straight of Gibraltar to the East into the Levant, Iran, Middle East.

    Link 1

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/...urope-country/

    Link 2

    https://www.navyadvancement.com/navy...s-overseas.php

    So if Meloni wins her party comes out uses Italy's historical ties, its commitment to NATO and the fact that the USA has in Italy, a Force structure only 2nd to Germany. Germany in my view should be drawn down even more given much of direct Anti-Americanism found there and moved to say the UK, etc. While there might be some non Pro American sentiments in Italy (usually among the former Red types), at least it for the most part is either Pro American or at least not Anti-American as in some of the other countries, France, Germany in particular.

    Once Meloni stresses Italy's commitment and role in NATO as America's loyal and supportive NATO partner, she then can pivot on the EU question and move to get Italy out of the EU and Italy can then set its on policies on domestic issues and immigration based on what Italian voters want, not what the EU oligarchs want.

    Italy is given Putin's moves can also leverage the fact that there are already existing pipelines from North Africa coming into Sicily. Nigeria has agreed with Morocco to Spain. There are already pipelines into Italy from I think Libya. Italy again using its important as a NATO member can on its own accord and given its geographic advantage negotiate with North African countries to link up gas supplies from there and tie them to the Middle East and countries like Nigeria (Merkel was doing that independently with Putin and Trump called her out on it and the EU got ticked at Trump for pointing that out, I have a long memory).

    Meloni can work with Greece, the Balkans states and the EU skeptic Eastern Europeans and link the pipelines that are already in Italy coming from North Africa. Work with those other Southern European countries (Greece should be a natural ally with Italy) and the Balkans and Eastern European countries and make Italy a major gas distribution hub to South East Europe and Eastern Europe. The Energy supply link through Italy to the Southeast European and Eastern European countries could also be negotiated through the lens of not only economic security for Italy and its SE European and Eastern European business partners (Gas pipelines) but also a NATO joint defense issue (which again Italy has lots of political capital given its major strategic importance to the USA's overseas force structure)

    https://en.populationdata.net/maps/a...gas-pipelines/


    My quick take and assessment and lastly "Vai Giorgia Meloni"
    You underestimate the extreme right nowadays, in Europe they are big Putin lovers.

    Yesterday in the Dutch parliament one of the right wing populist party's began a lovesong on the virility of Putin etc etc.

    They can't deliver a better service to Putin than to dismantle the NATO....

    Lega Nord (It), FPÖ (Austria), Afd (Germany), Forum voor Democratie(NL) are Putin's fifth column, yesterday the commies listened to the Kremlin today the extreme right wingers....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    You underestimate the extreme right nowadays, in Europe they are big Putin lovers.

    Yesterday in the Dutch parliament one of the right wing populist party's began a lovesong on the virility of Putin etc etc.

    They can't deliver a better service to Putin than to dismantle the NATO....

    Lega Nord (It), FPÖ (Austria), Afd (Germany), Forum voor Democratie(NL) are Putin's fifth column, yesterday the commies listened to the Kremlin today the extreme right wingers....
    The commies were to the right of today's woke left-wing, on social issues. Also, the woke-left are corporate backed, so they are to the right of the commies on economics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    Jovialis/Angela: I also think Italy should leave the EU as it has been nothing but a puppet organization run by the likes of Merkel and Macron. This illegal migration issue is largely the result of the likes of the EU, Merkel and Macron to ensure cheap labor for the Corporate interest in Europe, all under the guise of some other reason.

    I have said this on other blogs or Youtube chats when talking to American-Italians and Italians themselves and said the same thing to Italians when I have visited there.

    If Meloni wins, first thing she needs to do (she already has) is firmly recommit Italy to being a steadfast NATO member (Italy was one of the original 12 founding members). If she does that she can use these factual data

    1) Italy is where the USA has the 2nd Most active Military stationed (see Link 1). Hence Italy is giving the USA strategic bases to not only support NATO security, but also for the USA to deal with terrorism in the Middle East, North Africa and beyond.

    2) Italy's strategic location is why as part of its NATO force structure, it largest NAVAL presence is in Italy. It has 3 major facilities in Naples and 1 in Sigonella in Sicily. Thus Italy's strategic location in the Mediterranean is itself an important geographical Asset that Italy has since from Italy, the USA Naval presence can be projected across the Mediterranean to the West to the Straight of Gibraltar to the East into the Levant, Iran, Middle East.

    Link 1

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/...urope-country/

    Link 2

    https://www.navyadvancement.com/navy...s-overseas.php

    So if Meloni wins her party comes out uses Italy's historical ties, its commitment to NATO and the fact that the USA has in Italy, a Force structure only 2nd to Germany. Germany in my view should be drawn down even more given much of direct Anti-Americanism found there and moved to say the UK, etc. While there might be some non Pro American sentiments in Italy (usually among the former Red types), at least it for the most part is either Pro American or at least not Anti-American as in some of the other countries, France, Germany in particular.

    Once Meloni stresses Italy's commitment and role in NATO as America's loyal and supportive NATO partner, she then can pivot on the EU question and move to get Italy out of the EU and Italy can then set its on policies on domestic issues and immigration based on what Italian voters want, not what the EU oligarchs want.

    Italy is given Putin's moves can also leverage the fact that there are already existing pipelines from North Africa coming into Sicily. Nigeria has agreed with Morocco to Spain. There are already pipelines into Italy from I think Libya. Italy again using its important as a NATO member can on its own accord and given its geographic advantage negotiate with North African countries to link up gas supplies from there and tie them to the Middle East and countries like Nigeria (Merkel was doing that independently with Putin and Trump called her out on it and the EU got ticked at Trump for pointing that out, I have a long memory).

    Meloni can work with Greece, the Balkans states and the EU skeptic Eastern Europeans and link the pipelines that are already in Italy coming from North Africa. Work with those other Southern European countries (Greece should be a natural ally with Italy) and the Balkans and Eastern European countries and make Italy a major gas distribution hub to South East Europe and Eastern Europe. The Energy supply link through Italy to the Southeast European and Eastern European countries could also be negotiated through the lens of not only economic security for Italy and its SE European and Eastern European business partners (Gas pipelines) but also a NATO joint defense issue (which again Italy has lots of political capital given its major strategic importance to the USA's overseas force structure)

    https://en.populationdata.net/maps/a...gas-pipelines/


    My quick take and assessment and lastly "Vai Giorgia Meloni"
    For the rest nice fantasies about cooperation with the Balkans and Greece etc there is one theme the nationalistic right has in common they are orientated on their own navel, so forget about a great south east European garden of Italy.

    And tell me the sense of cutting of Northern Italy from the ties with the most prosperous parts of Europe in favor of new ties with the most poor parts....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    The commies were to the right of today's woke left-wing, on social issues. Also, the woke-left are corporate backed, so they are to the right of the commies on economics.
    Sorry but your view is colored by US experiences etc. the European extremest right was until recent in the pocket of Putin. And still they have sympathies for him, but is less popular to show it, so Le Pen destroyed millions of PR material with of photo of Le Pen and Putin tete at tete!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    Sorry but your view is colored by US experiences etc. the European extremest right was until recent in the pocket of Putin. And still they have sympathies for him, but is less popular to show it, so Le Pen destroyed millions of PR material with of photo of Le Pen and Putin tete at tete!
    Well, the thread is called Woke America, which is what I was referring to.

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    The European left-wing mainstream is in the pocket of the American Woke Left-wing controlled Democrat corporatists.

    Your countries are satellites of the American Global Empire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    The European left-wing mainstream is in the pocket of the American Woke Left-wing controlled Democrat corporatists.

    Your countries are satellites of the American Global Empire.
    Yeh sure.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    Yeh sure.....







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    Good thing the Euro is so valuable, it comes in handy when you procure U.S. arms to fight U.S. proxy wars.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Good thing the Euro is so valuable, it comes in handy when you procure U.S. arms to fight U.S. proxy wars.
    No problems with NATIO, nothing is perfect but was until know pretty assurance for peace and prosperity in (West) Europe.....

  24. #399
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Good thing the Euro is so valuable, it comes in handy when you procure U.S. arms to fight U.S. proxy wars.
    The Euro is simply a political construct, the idea of it came from the French to contain Germany, it was the D-Mark or the Euro.

    Meloni is not lunatic she will not jump out of the EU, too va banque for Italy,
    Last edited by Northener; 23-09-22 at 11:17.

  25. #400
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    No problems with NATIO, nothing is perfect but was until know pretty assurance for peace and prosperity in (West) Europe.....
    The USA has bases, missiles and troops in Europe.

    Europe relies on U.S. military to protect itself from enemies like Russia.

    The U.S. loaned funds to rebuild Europe after it conquered it from Nazi Germany.

    U.S. cultural influence is undeniably everywhere in Europe. As well as our products, etc.

    You don't think that's an empire?

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