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Thread: "WOKE" America

  1. #426
    Regular Member Stuvanè's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    That's not what I said. I said :If Italy goes on a collision course in Europe and winks more at Orban and Putin, I would have no problem with Italy leaving the EU. I would see more in a smaller EU anyway. Italy is unstable, has a weak economy and a sky-high government debt. Why show solidarity if it is not mutual?

    That's totally different. And in other postings I stated that Italy is one of the European founding fathers. And also that I can't find no reason why Northern Italy your region should be cut of from the rest of the Blue Banana and should orientate on Tirana.....
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Banana

    Nevertheless if the 'postmodern fascist' Meloni gets elected and is on a collision course and is winking to Putin why should the rest of the EU hang on to it.

    At the same time I know that it's very destabilizing for Europe and specific Italy itself.

    I don't get your passage about Putin, he is clearly on the loosing side, and completely lost touch with reality. The scene about Hitler when he was loosing the war could be also a scene in the Kremlin now:



    That makes im pretty unpredictable now.....if Hitler had the red button in this case.....

    Indeed the basic thing for a state is safety for the citizens but a democracy is more. I find Lefort always right in the case of communism and fascism, the 'place of politics has to be empty':
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claude_Lefort

    But may be not your cup of tea.
    So the conclusion of this reasoning is what?
    That it is only possible to govern if you please Brussels, despite local elections?


    With regard to the Blue Banana, it is obvious that there is no interest in excluding northern Italy from it, since it is precisely one of the main reasons why the Peninsula has been tempting the trans-Alpines from the early Middle Ages to the present day. And it is obvious that it is in our interest to maintain relations with rich and dynamic regions, but with non-penalising regulations, those for which the EU is ecstatic (the list of such nonsense is endless, but if you really want a concrete example, go and see that idiotic 'Nutriscore', which in words wants to protect consumer health, but in fact cripples the Italian food industry).


    What I mean to say about Putin is that if you want to wage war with a country the size of Russia - whether you are right or wrong - you have to have muscles like your enemy or more than him. This is not the case with the EU, which not only has muscles, but - more seriously - not even brains and wits. Did they think the matter would be over in a matter of days or weeks? That they were dealing with an unruly burg to be brought back into line by puffing out their chests? How long are they prepared to adopt these sanctions without counterbalancing their effects in some way, and whose concrete result so far is only to unhinge the economies of the countries adopting them? If they have not thought this through at the outset, they are either incapable and unfit for their role or they are in bad faith, the choice is yours.


    Democracy and its defence conceived in a totally abstract manner leave time to be found. In the name of democracy and participation in a conflict in which the Eurocrats and Grandpa Biden have dragged us into, here we have companies closing without ever reopening and families going broke, so apart from the fact that 'democracy' is a variable geometry concept - and I understand that everyone has a different meaning in their head -, you have little use for the defence of its values if in the end you have nothing left to survive on. And this is almost always the case when ideology takes over from practical life, and in order to achieve an overly ambitious result, you end up jettisoning a reality that, however flawed, was working. The best is the enemy of the good.


    I can very well agree with what Lefort writes or thinks, but in my opinion it is more appropriate for you to send that Wikipedia link and let Madame Ursula Von der Layen and her minions read it, especially the paragraph "Conception of democracy", since with certain countries and candidates it seems to me that Madame and her court regulate themselves quite differently.

  2. #427
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    Stuvane: How do you think Italian voters are going to view Madame Ursula Von der Layen (EU President with a name that sounds like ties to the DAVOS crowd and European royal families and rich elites from the Central regions of Europe who think they run everything in Europe) who is lets call it what it is directly trying to interfere with a local election in Italy.

    I repeat what I said, Italy's role in NATO is among the most important, if not most important given its geography, number of US forces stationed and in particular the NAVY presence which allows for the USA/NATO to project power across the Med from West to East. If the populist/right groups win, immediately they should form an alliance with all the Central to Eastern European countries in NATO in some sort of trade/energy pact. This would include everyone from Poland, to Italy including the Balkan countries that are pro NATO. You don't think the Czech Republic would want to be part of that given it shares a border with Germany. The EU is attacking Poland but what country in Europe fought against both Hitler's Germany and then struggled against Stalinist/Communist Russia. Who the hell is the EU to criticize Poland?

    In Post #384, I have already documented that "Italy" provides naval bases for NATO that result in Italy having the 2nd most US forces stationed in Europe, save Germany, which the USA has been steadily downsizing. I will call attention to NATO spending per GDP. Italy is at 1.54. While I would hope to see Meloni/Salvini and the Center-Right coalition groups move to get that to 2% of GDP, Italy does provide its land and ports for the US Navy so Italy is still making more of a contribution than most of the EU oligarch countries (i.e., Germany, Macron-France, Belgium and Netherlands). The same heat of Europe region that has been running Europe for centuries. Belgium, Madame Ursula Von der Layen's home country spends 1.18% of GDP on NATO defense!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Lets look at Croatia (2.03%), Poland (2.42%), Estonia (2.34%), Greece (3.76%), Latvia (2.10%), Lithuania (2.36%), Romania (1.99%), Slovak Republic ( 2%) and then the UK (2.12%, USA can always count on those guys) and finally USA (3.76%)

    https://www.nato.int/nato_static_fl2...xp-2022-en.pdf


    So Italy needs to look East, I have always thought Italy and Greece should be natural allies. Greece is doing its part for NATO, as are the Central and Eastern EU countries. All of those countries need to get together and in a public show communicate via press, etc and remind the EU and the USA that these countries are doing their part for NATO security. Italy's agreement with the USA to allow America to basically put its European Fleet in Italian ports is enough for Italy to show its commitment to NATO, even though they are not hitting the 2% GDP number.

    Another way for Italy (Meloni/Salvini) to work with Greece to improve relations with Turkey. The USA and Turkey have been working on a way to mend its relationship. See linked article. Turkey is buying lots of LNG gas from the USA (so getting Turkey away from Russian Gas). Erdogan wants to use that excess LNG to supply Greece and connect Italy with Greece on the other side of the Adriatic. Italy needs to get involved with that discussion with USA, Greece and Turkey.



    https://news.yahoo.com/erdogan-says-...104437970.html

    So another pipeline linking Greece with Italy. Italy can send excess Gas from what it gets from the North African pipelines and Greece can then be a major distribution point for the Balkans, to Central Europe and link up with Eastern Europe. All of these countries can bypass countries from Germany to France and not deal with them.

    https://en.populationdata.net/maps/a...gas-pipelines/

    So Meloni, call the EU's bluff and partner with the Greeks, the Balkans countries, Central and Eastern Europeans.

    The UK exited the EU and the sky did not fall. UK is still Americas most Loyal NATO partner (they meet the 2% of GDP and the the UK hosts the 3rd most US personnel behind Germany and Italy).

    Sorry for the long post, but my American of Sicilian-Italian ancestry blood pressure sort of went through the roof after reading what the EU President said. That is election interference in the democratic process of a NATO allied country (one who does more than her home country of Belgium!).

    Buona giornata and Vai Meloni

  3. #428
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuvanè View Post
    So the conclusion of this reasoning is what?
    That it is only possible to govern if you please Brussels, despite local elections?


    With regard to the Blue Banana, it is obvious that there is no interest in excluding northern Italy from it, since it is precisely one of the main reasons why the Peninsula has been tempting the trans-Alpines from the early Middle Ages to the present day. And it is obvious that it is in our interest to maintain relations with rich and dynamic regions, but with non-penalising regulations, those for which the EU is ecstatic (the list of such nonsense is endless, but if you really want a concrete example, go and see that idiotic 'Nutriscore', which in words wants to protect consumer health, but in fact cripples the Italian food industry).


    What I mean to say about Putin is that if you want to wage war with a country the size of Russia - whether you are right or wrong - you have to have muscles like your enemy or more than him. This is not the case with the EU, which not only has muscles, but - more seriously - not even brains and wits. Did they think the matter would be over in a matter of days or weeks? That they were dealing with an unruly burg to be brought back into line by puffing out their chests? How long are they prepared to adopt these sanctions without counterbalancing their effects in some way, and whose concrete result so far is only to unhinge the economies of the countries adopting them? If they have not thought this through at the outset, they are either incapable and unfit for their role or they are in bad faith, the choice is yours.


    Democracy and its defence conceived in a totally abstract manner leave time to be found. In the name of democracy and participation in a conflict in which the Eurocrats and Grandpa Biden have dragged us into, here we have companies closing without ever reopening and families going broke, so apart from the fact that 'democracy' is a variable geometry concept - and I understand that everyone has a different meaning in their head -, you have little use for the defence of its values if in the end you have nothing left to survive on. And this is almost always the case when ideology takes over from practical life, and in order to achieve an overly ambitious result, you end up jettisoning a reality that, however flawed, was working. The best is the enemy of the good.


    I can very well agree with what Lefort writes or thinks, but in my opinion it is more appropriate for you to send that Wikipedia link and let Madame Ursula Von der Layen and her minions read it, especially the paragraph "Conception of democracy", since with certain countries and candidates it seems to me that Madame and her court regulate themselves quite differently.
    Indeed no conclusion. Partly practically because I was too tired and not sharp enough to draw a conclusion. Besides that I think I can't draw conclusions. I have the feeling that I have a correspondence with someone who has definitely another worldview, nevertheless with a quit calm tone...

    My personal experiences with Brussel the EU are sort. I did a job(not for long) for the University and had some meeting in Brussel. Pfff I don't fit in that technocratic bubble. I'm too hard mouthed and in general I don't fit in that Brussel technocrat picture...I'm more into local, regional, national an in fact international political things. The EU never drew really my attention. May be to short sighted from me because it's certainly a factor (indeed take the food regulations etc). But the passion for that fails. So may be I'm not quit the person to function as a kind of 'EU spokesman'.

    The thing that I find important is that we lived after ww2 (apart from the Balkan) for about 75 years in peace and prosperity. That's really a core thing. Until Putin invaded the Ukraine. To forcible his czarist dreams, or Rus dreams (Kyiv as starting point etc). All exaggerated things because in fact the decline of the SU. Putin staid the KGB man he ever was, but now mixed with Eastern Orthodox and ultra nationalist visions. Now the invasion of the Ukraine, initial aimed for a few days, is going to be a debacle. And the 'brother folk' is terrorized, raped, tortured. And from fare away -stan boys are delivered as cannon fodder.

    I don't think the EU ought to be a factor in this, at least not as a warmachine, it was never build as a state with an army etc. I really think the Germans have to be on track again. Are the Italians, Dutch, French ready to accept this? Until then the NATO is still in position for this, it's no coincidence Finland and Sweden want to join it! I don't have much trouble with the US. Unless they still continue to choose president that functions as unguided projectile, leaving top state secrets lying around in private homes and having conducted 4000 trials in 30 years...idiotic. Prudence, prudence, prudence!

    Grandpa Biden has also clearly had his day (which includes that man wanting to choose another four years). But Putin has repeatedly indicated that he sees a formidable opponent in him. He is one of the most eloquent politicians in foreign affairs. He did not allow himself to be reared in the Ukraine crisis (directed by a department or not). What do you think he did wrong for the Ukraine?

    And for the blue-banana you gave to the interests of others, but what is the importance of Northern Italy in this matter? What's the point of drawing borders against other parts of the European economic core area? What do you think of the Palermo ideas to focus Italy completely on the Balkans? Is that glorious future there?
    Last edited by Northener; Today at 10:12.

  4. #429
    Regular Member Duarte's Avatar
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    @PT
    I don't know what Stuvanè thinks, but I'll say what I think. She thinks she is an important head of state and has not realized the United States of Europe does not exist. The state she thinks she represents does not exist and she is simply a pathetic mimicry of Ms. Thatcher. Does anyone remember the Erdoğan’s couch? They say it was a gaffe by the Turkish president, but I think he did it on purpose.
    Last edited by Duarte; Today at 03:01. Reason: Correcting the spelling of the name of President of Türkiye

  5. #430
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
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    She's another Davos puppet, and should learn to keep her mouth shut about affairs that don't concern her.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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