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Thread: "WOKE" America

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    That's not what I said. I said :If Italy goes on a collision course in Europe and winks more at Orban and Putin, I would have no problem with Italy leaving the EU. I would see more in a smaller EU anyway. Italy is unstable, has a weak economy and a sky-high government debt. Why show solidarity if it is not mutual?

    That's totally different. And in other postings I stated that Italy is one of the European founding fathers. And also that I can't find no reason why Northern Italy your region should be cut of from the rest of the Blue Banana and should orientate on Tirana.....
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Banana

    Nevertheless if the 'postmodern fascist' Meloni gets elected and is on a collision course and is winking to Putin why should the rest of the EU hang on to it.

    At the same time I know that it's very destabilizing for Europe and specific Italy itself.

    I don't get your passage about Putin, he is clearly on the loosing side, and completely lost touch with reality. The scene about Hitler when he was loosing the war could be also a scene in the Kremlin now:



    That makes im pretty unpredictable now.....if Hitler had the red button in this case.....

    Indeed the basic thing for a state is safety for the citizens but a democracy is more. I find Lefort always right in the case of communism and fascism, the 'place of politics has to be empty':
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claude_Lefort

    But may be not your cup of tea.
    So the conclusion of this reasoning is what?
    That it is only possible to govern if you please Brussels, despite local elections?


    With regard to the Blue Banana, it is obvious that there is no interest in excluding northern Italy from it, since it is precisely one of the main reasons why the Peninsula has been tempting the trans-Alpines from the early Middle Ages to the present day. And it is obvious that it is in our interest to maintain relations with rich and dynamic regions, but with non-penalising regulations, those for which the EU is ecstatic (the list of such nonsense is endless, but if you really want a concrete example, go and see that idiotic 'Nutriscore', which in words wants to protect consumer health, but in fact cripples the Italian food industry).


    What I mean to say about Putin is that if you want to wage war with a country the size of Russia - whether you are right or wrong - you have to have muscles like your enemy or more than him. This is not the case with the EU, which not only has muscles, but - more seriously - not even brains and wits. Did they think the matter would be over in a matter of days or weeks? That they were dealing with an unruly burg to be brought back into line by puffing out their chests? How long are they prepared to adopt these sanctions without counterbalancing their effects in some way, and whose concrete result so far is only to unhinge the economies of the countries adopting them? If they have not thought this through at the outset, they are either incapable and unfit for their role or they are in bad faith, the choice is yours.


    Democracy and its defence conceived in a totally abstract manner leave time to be found. In the name of democracy and participation in a conflict in which the Eurocrats and Grandpa Biden have dragged us into, here we have companies closing without ever reopening and families going broke, so apart from the fact that 'democracy' is a variable geometry concept - and I understand that everyone has a different meaning in their head -, you have little use for the defence of its values if in the end you have nothing left to survive on. And this is almost always the case when ideology takes over from practical life, and in order to achieve an overly ambitious result, you end up jettisoning a reality that, however flawed, was working. The best is the enemy of the good.


    I can very well agree with what Lefort writes or thinks, but in my opinion it is more appropriate for you to send that Wikipedia link and let Madame Ursula Von der Layen and her minions read it, especially the paragraph "Conception of democracy", since with certain countries and candidates it seems to me that Madame and her court regulate themselves quite differently.

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    Stuvane: How do you think Italian voters are going to view Madame Ursula Von der Layen (EU President with a name that sounds like ties to the DAVOS crowd and European royal families and rich elites from the Central regions of Europe who think they run everything in Europe) who is lets call it what it is directly trying to interfere with a local election in Italy.

    I repeat what I said, Italy's role in NATO is among the most important, if not most important given its geography, number of US forces stationed and in particular the NAVY presence which allows for the USA/NATO to project power across the Med from West to East. If the populist/right groups win, immediately they should form an alliance with all the Central to Eastern European countries in NATO in some sort of trade/energy pact. This would include everyone from Poland, to Italy including the Balkan countries that are pro NATO. You don't think the Czech Republic would want to be part of that given it shares a border with Germany. The EU is attacking Poland but what country in Europe fought against both Hitler's Germany and then struggled against Stalinist/Communist Russia. Who the hell is the EU to criticize Poland?

    In Post #384, I have already documented that "Italy" provides naval bases for NATO that result in Italy having the 2nd most US forces stationed in Europe, save Germany, which the USA has been steadily downsizing. I will call attention to NATO spending per GDP. Italy is at 1.54. While I would hope to see Meloni/Salvini and the Center-Right coalition groups move to get that to 2% of GDP, Italy does provide its land and ports for the US Navy so Italy is still making more of a contribution than most of the EU oligarch countries (i.e., Germany, Macron-France, Belgium and Netherlands). The same heat of Europe region that has been running Europe for centuries. Belgium, Madame Ursula Von der Layen's home country spends 1.18% of GDP on NATO defense!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Lets look at Croatia (2.03%), Poland (2.42%), Estonia (2.34%), Greece (3.76%), Latvia (2.10%), Lithuania (2.36%), Romania (1.99%), Slovak Republic ( 2%) and then the UK (2.12%, USA can always count on those guys) and finally USA (3.76%)

    https://www.nato.int/nato_static_fl2...xp-2022-en.pdf


    So Italy needs to look East, I have always thought Italy and Greece should be natural allies. Greece is doing its part for NATO, as are the Central and Eastern EU countries. All of those countries need to get together and in a public show communicate via press, etc and remind the EU and the USA that these countries are doing their part for NATO security. Italy's agreement with the USA to allow America to basically put its European Fleet in Italian ports is enough for Italy to show its commitment to NATO, even though they are not hitting the 2% GDP number.

    Another way for Italy (Meloni/Salvini) to work with Greece to improve relations with Turkey. The USA and Turkey have been working on a way to mend its relationship. See linked article. Turkey is buying lots of LNG gas from the USA (so getting Turkey away from Russian Gas). Erdogan wants to use that excess LNG to supply Greece and connect Italy with Greece on the other side of the Adriatic. Italy needs to get involved with that discussion with USA, Greece and Turkey.



    https://news.yahoo.com/erdogan-says-...104437970.html

    So another pipeline linking Greece with Italy. Italy can send excess Gas from what it gets from the North African pipelines and Greece can then be a major distribution point for the Balkans, to Central Europe and link up with Eastern Europe. All of these countries can bypass countries from Germany to France and not deal with them.

    https://en.populationdata.net/maps/a...gas-pipelines/

    So Meloni, call the EU's bluff and partner with the Greeks, the Balkans countries, Central and Eastern Europeans.

    The UK exited the EU and the sky did not fall. UK is still Americas most Loyal NATO partner (they meet the 2% of GDP and the the UK hosts the 3rd most US personnel behind Germany and Italy).

    Sorry for the long post, but my American of Sicilian-Italian ancestry blood pressure sort of went through the roof after reading what the EU President said. That is election interference in the democratic process of a NATO allied country (one who does more than her home country of Belgium!).

    Buona giornata and Vai Meloni

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuvanè View Post
    So the conclusion of this reasoning is what?
    That it is only possible to govern if you please Brussels, despite local elections?


    With regard to the Blue Banana, it is obvious that there is no interest in excluding northern Italy from it, since it is precisely one of the main reasons why the Peninsula has been tempting the trans-Alpines from the early Middle Ages to the present day. And it is obvious that it is in our interest to maintain relations with rich and dynamic regions, but with non-penalising regulations, those for which the EU is ecstatic (the list of such nonsense is endless, but if you really want a concrete example, go and see that idiotic 'Nutriscore', which in words wants to protect consumer health, but in fact cripples the Italian food industry).


    What I mean to say about Putin is that if you want to wage war with a country the size of Russia - whether you are right or wrong - you have to have muscles like your enemy or more than him. This is not the case with the EU, which not only has muscles, but - more seriously - not even brains and wits. Did they think the matter would be over in a matter of days or weeks? That they were dealing with an unruly burg to be brought back into line by puffing out their chests? How long are they prepared to adopt these sanctions without counterbalancing their effects in some way, and whose concrete result so far is only to unhinge the economies of the countries adopting them? If they have not thought this through at the outset, they are either incapable and unfit for their role or they are in bad faith, the choice is yours.


    Democracy and its defence conceived in a totally abstract manner leave time to be found. In the name of democracy and participation in a conflict in which the Eurocrats and Grandpa Biden have dragged us into, here we have companies closing without ever reopening and families going broke, so apart from the fact that 'democracy' is a variable geometry concept - and I understand that everyone has a different meaning in their head -, you have little use for the defence of its values if in the end you have nothing left to survive on. And this is almost always the case when ideology takes over from practical life, and in order to achieve an overly ambitious result, you end up jettisoning a reality that, however flawed, was working. The best is the enemy of the good.


    I can very well agree with what Lefort writes or thinks, but in my opinion it is more appropriate for you to send that Wikipedia link and let Madame Ursula Von der Layen and her minions read it, especially the paragraph "Conception of democracy", since with certain countries and candidates it seems to me that Madame and her court regulate themselves quite differently.
    Indeed no conclusion. Partly practically because I was too tired and not sharp enough to draw a conclusion. Besides that I think I can't draw conclusions. I have the feeling that I have a correspondence with someone who has definitely another worldview, nevertheless with a quit calm tone...

    My personal experiences with Brussel the EU are sort. I did a job(not for long) for the University and had some meeting in Brussel. Pfff I don't fit in that technocratic bubble. I'm too hard mouthed and in general I don't fit in that Brussel technocrat picture...I'm more into local, regional, national an in fact international political things. The EU never drew really my attention. May be to short sighted from me because it's certainly a factor (indeed take the food regulations etc). But the passion for that fails. So may be I'm not quit the person to function as a kind of 'EU spokesman'.

    The thing that I find important is that we lived after ww2 (apart from the Balkan) for about 75 years in peace and prosperity. That's really a core thing. Until Putin invaded the Ukraine. To forcible his czarist dreams, or Rus dreams (Kyiv as starting point etc). All exaggerated things because in fact the decline of the SU. Putin staid the KGB man he ever was, but now mixed with Eastern Orthodox and ultra nationalist visions. Now the invasion of the Ukraine, initial aimed for a few days, is going to be a debacle. And the 'brother folk' is terrorized, raped, tortured. And from fare away -stan boys are delivered as cannon fodder.

    I don't think the EU ought to be a factor in this, at least not as a warmachine, it was never build as a state with an army etc. I really think the Germans have to be on track again. Are the Italians, Dutch, French ready to accept this? Until then the NATO is still in position for this, it's no coincidence Finland and Sweden want to join it! I don't have much trouble with the US. Unless they still continue to choose president that functions as unguided projectile, leaving top state secrets lying around in private homes and having conducted 4000 trials in 30 years...idiotic. Prudence, prudence, prudence!

    Grandpa Biden has also clearly had his day (which includes that man wanting to choose another four years). But Putin has repeatedly indicated that he sees a formidable opponent in him. He is one of the most eloquent politicians in foreign affairs. He did not allow himself to be reared in the Ukraine crisis (directed by a department or not). What do you think he did wrong for the Ukraine?

    And for the blue-banana you gave to the interests of others, but what is the importance of Northern Italy in this matter? What's the point of drawing borders against other parts of the European economic core area? What do you think of the Palermo ideas to focus Italy completely on the Balkans? Is that glorious future there?
    Last edited by Northener; 25-09-22 at 10:12.

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    @PT
    I don't know what Stuvanè thinks, but I'll say what I think. She thinks she is an important head of state and has not realized the United States of Europe does not exist. The state she thinks she represents does not exist and she is simply a pathetic mimicry of Ms. Thatcher. Does anyone remember the Erdoğan’s couch? They say it was a gaffe by the Turkish president, but I think he did it on purpose.
    Last edited by Duarte; 25-09-22 at 03:01. Reason: Correcting the spelling of the name of President of Türkiye

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    She's another Davos puppet, and should learn to keep her mouth shut about affairs that don't concern her.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duarte View Post
    @PT
    I don't know what Stuvanè thinks, but I'll say what I think. She thinks she is an important head of state and has not realized the United States of Europe does not exist. The state she thinks she represents does not exist and she is simply a pathetic mimicry of Ms. Thatcher. Does anyone remember the Erdoğan’s couch? They say it was a gaffe by the Turkish president, but I think he did it on purpose.
    @Duarte

    perfect portrait, you are breaking down an open door. I couldn't have found better words.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    Stuvane: How do you think Italian voters are going to view Madame Ursula Von der Layen (EU President with a name that sounds like ties to the DAVOS crowd and European royal families and rich elites from the Central regions of Europe who think they run everything in Europe) who is lets call it what it is directly trying to interfere with a local election in Italy.

    I repeat what I said, Italy's role in NATO is among the most important, if not most important given its geography, number of US forces stationed and in particular the NAVY presence which allows for the USA/NATO to project power across the Med from West to East. If the populist/right groups win, immediately they should form an alliance with all the Central to Eastern European countries in NATO in some sort of trade/energy pact. This would include everyone from Poland, to Italy including the Balkan countries that are pro NATO. You don't think the Czech Republic would want to be part of that given it shares a border with Germany. The EU is attacking Poland but what country in Europe fought against both Hitler's Germany and then struggled against Stalinist/Communist Russia. Who the hell is the EU to criticize Poland?

    In Post #384, I have already documented that "Italy" provides naval bases for NATO that result in Italy having the 2nd most US forces stationed in Europe, save Germany, which the USA has been steadily downsizing. I will call attention to NATO spending per GDP. Italy is at 1.54. While I would hope to see Meloni/Salvini and the Center-Right coalition groups move to get that to 2% of GDP, Italy does provide its land and ports for the US Navy so Italy is still making more of a contribution than most of the EU oligarch countries (i.e., Germany, Macron-France, Belgium and Netherlands). The same heat of Europe region that has been running Europe for centuries. Belgium, Madame Ursula Von der Layen's home country spends 1.18% of GDP on NATO defense!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Lets look at Croatia (2.03%), Poland (2.42%), Estonia (2.34%), Greece (3.76%), Latvia (2.10%), Lithuania (2.36%), Romania (1.99%), Slovak Republic ( 2%) and then the UK (2.12%, USA can always count on those guys) and finally USA (3.76%)

    https://www.nato.int/nato_static_fl2...xp-2022-en.pdf


    So Italy needs to look East, I have always thought Italy and Greece should be natural allies. Greece is doing its part for NATO, as are the Central and Eastern EU countries. All of those countries need to get together and in a public show communicate via press, etc and remind the EU and the USA that these countries are doing their part for NATO security. Italy's agreement with the USA to allow America to basically put its European Fleet in Italian ports is enough for Italy to show its commitment to NATO, even though they are not hitting the 2% GDP number.

    Another way for Italy (Meloni/Salvini) to work with Greece to improve relations with Turkey. The USA and Turkey have been working on a way to mend its relationship. See linked article. Turkey is buying lots of LNG gas from the USA (so getting Turkey away from Russian Gas). Erdogan wants to use that excess LNG to supply Greece and connect Italy with Greece on the other side of the Adriatic. Italy needs to get involved with that discussion with USA, Greece and Turkey.



    https://news.yahoo.com/erdogan-says-...104437970.html

    So another pipeline linking Greece with Italy. Italy can send excess Gas from what it gets from the North African pipelines and Greece can then be a major distribution point for the Balkans, to Central Europe and link up with Eastern Europe. All of these countries can bypass countries from Germany to France and not deal with them.

    https://en.populationdata.net/maps/a...gas-pipelines/

    So Meloni, call the EU's bluff and partner with the Greeks, the Balkans countries, Central and Eastern Europeans.

    The UK exited the EU and the sky did not fall. UK is still Americas most Loyal NATO partner (they meet the 2% of GDP and the the UK hosts the 3rd most US personnel behind Germany and Italy).

    Sorry for the long post, but my American of Sicilian-Italian ancestry blood pressure sort of went through the roof after reading what the EU President said. That is election interference in the democratic process of a NATO allied country (one who does more than her home country of Belgium!).

    Buona giornata and Vai Meloni

    @Palermo

    The President of the European Commission (current von der Layen) and the President of the European Council (current Michel), who are the highest offices in the EU, are elected by a so-called 'qualified majority' by the European Council (consisting of the heads of state/government of the EU member states). In turn, the Council must or should take into account the indications or guidelines of the European Parliament, which in this chain is the only link that is actually elected by the European citizens.


    In practice it's a model closer to a parliamentary republic (as in Italy, with all its disadvantages), than to a presidential republic. Now you realise that with all these intermediate steps, the degree of representativeness of these institutions with respect to the voters is minimal, and the margins of discretion in taking certain decisions is very wide and evidently influenceable or conditionable by extra-parliamentary forces or power groups well described by Angela. With all due respect to democracy that we want to teach around the world.


    Of course they do not say this to our faces, but since a politician is ultimately judged not by what he says but by what he does (or does not do), it is a fact that the real levers of power now lie outside the European Parliament. It's true that the European Union started out as a community with economic purposes (which in itself has its limits), but at least in the beginning there were the public economies of the member states. Now it responds much more to the financial speculations of a few narrow oligarchies, more or less camouflaged. European parliamentarians either no longer have the competence/ability to stem this situation and restore politics to its true primacy, or they are colluding with it.


    I largely agree with what you say about Italy's role within NATO and its ability to influence or operate in synergy with the countries of the Mediterranean and Balkan and Central and Eastern Europe. If Italy makes a field choice towards the West, its being a NATO member is a role that should obviously be much more valued and exploited, or made to count as a bargaining chip to favour certain of our national interests. For geographical, historical and cultural reasons, Italy could well lend itself to the role of mediator.

    But in practice, I see this as much less feasible, in the sense that every time Italy has taken initiatives to carve out a space of its own - for example with regard to its own energy and/or commercial independence - it has almost always been hindered, not to say gambled away by 'friendly' fire. There are levels of "deep state" on both sides of the Atlantic that don't look favourably on what you propose.

    This is a novel composed of various chapters, from the never-explained and highly suspicious death of a man like Enrico Mattei - whose projects, had they been completed, would have radically and positively changed our history - to the overthrow of Gaddafi in Libya, a questionable figure as long as you like, with whom, however, instruments were being sketched out both to stem uncontrolled immigration from Africa and to open or strengthen new channels for our energy supply.
    This evidently did not please certain Atlantic/Western forces that preferred more oppositional policies, Gaddafi was bombed with means from our own bases - making us look shameful from a diplomatic point of view - and the rest is the history of today, with that area of North Africa becoming yet another powder keg of conflict and a zone of international confrontation.

    The impression of being almost always useful idiots - good just because we occupy Europe's main maritime 'pier' - remains, with a lot of bitterness in our mouths and a lot of distrust for what is suggested (and more often imposed) on us from abroad.


    We'll see what happens, but I'm under no illusions

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuvanè View Post
    @Palermo

    The President of the European Commission (current von der Layen) and the President of the European Council (current Michel), who are the highest offices in the EU, are elected by a so-called 'qualified majority' by the European Council (consisting of the heads of state/government of the EU member states). In turn, the Council must or should take into account the indications or guidelines of the European Parliament, which in this chain is the only link that is actually elected by the European citizens.


    In practice it's a model closer to a parliamentary republic (as in Italy, with all its disadvantages), than to a presidential republic. Now you realise that with all these intermediate steps, the degree of representativeness of these institutions with respect to the voters is minimal, and the margins of discretion in taking certain decisions is very wide and evidently influenceable or conditionable by extra-parliamentary forces or power groups well described by Angela. With all due respect to democracy that we want to teach around the world.


    Of course they do not say this to our faces, but since a politician is ultimately judged not by what he says but by what he does (or does not do), it is a fact that the real levers of power now lie outside the European Parliament. It's true that the European Union started out as a community with economic purposes (which in itself has its limits), but at least in the beginning there were the public economies of the member states. Now it responds much more to the financial speculations of a few narrow oligarchies, more or less camouflaged. European parliamentarians either no longer have the competence/ability to stem this situation and restore politics to its true primacy, or they are colluding with it.


    I largely agree with what you say about Italy's role within NATO and its ability to influence or operate in synergy with the countries of the Mediterranean and Balkan and Central and Eastern Europe. If Italy makes a field choice towards the West, its being a NATO member is a role that should obviously be much more valued and exploited, or made to count as a bargaining chip to favour certain of our national interests. For geographical, historical and cultural reasons, Italy could well lend itself to the role of mediator.

    But in practice, I see this as much less feasible, in the sense that every time Italy has taken initiatives to carve out a space of its own - for example with regard to its own energy and/or commercial independence - it has almost always been hindered, not to say gambled away by 'friendly' fire. There are levels of "deep state" on both sides of the Atlantic that don't look favourably on what you propose.

    This is a novel composed of various chapters, from the never-explained and highly suspicious death of a man like Enrico Mattei - whose projects, had they been completed, would have radically and positively changed our history - to the overthrow of Gaddafi in Libya, a questionable figure as long as you like, with whom, however, instruments were being sketched out both to stem uncontrolled immigration from Africa and to open or strengthen new channels for our energy supply.
    This evidently did not please certain Atlantic/Western forces that preferred more oppositional policies, Gaddafi was bombed with means from our own bases - making us look shameful from a diplomatic point of view - and the rest is the history of today, with that area of North Africa becoming yet another powder keg of conflict and a zone of international confrontation.

    The impression of being almost always useful idiots - good just because we occupy Europe's main maritime 'pier' - remains, with a lot of bitterness in our mouths and a lot of distrust for what is suggested (and more often imposed) on us from abroad.


    We'll see what happens, but I'm under no illusions
    Brilliantly argued and elegantly expressed, Stuvane.

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    Stuvane:

    Thanks for the explanation on exactly how the EU representatives and President are selected.

    As for the Gaddafi removal, I have always questioned the wisdom in that one. He was a problem during the Reagan era, Reagan sent a few cruise missiles after him (did not try to put boots on the ground and due regime change, the Bush policy) and Gaddafi stopped sponsoring terrorism and all of sudden the Obama-Biden, and you can add Hillary Clinton (Secretary of State) decide to work with certain EU member states to take him out. Italy was working with a energy deal with Gaddafi in exchange for him to work with Italy to stop illegal migration. Italy acting that way was not what the Germans wanted (they of course were working with Russia to get Gas from Putin at the time and were in large part why the EU got so dependent on Russian Oil and Gas).

    Gaddafi was pushing for pan-Africanism and his ties to the likes of Fidel Castro, Chavez in Venezuela, etc and others did not help his image with the USA and EU member states. The problem is the devil you know is often better than the devil you don't know. He had long ago stopped funding terrorism. Sub-Saharan African countries, many former colonies of Western Europe powers, saw him as an ally in that he was pushing for a pan-Africanism where they worked to control their own resources that were shipped to Europe. I often wonder if toppling Gaddafi is part of the motivation for sub-Saharan African countries to look to forming economic/trade partnerships with China. Now China is not doing this for charitable reasons, they have their own strategic interest in everything they do, but with the Chinese, the trade/economic partnerships are purely transactional. China is not going meddle in the internal affairs of sub-Saharan Africa and they are going to expect those countries to not criticize China at the UN. It is purely and economic relationship/partnership.

    As for Italy strengthening Gas supplies with Gaddafi and the rest of North Africa, well here we are now and what are European Countries doing, they are working to increase Gas flows from the North African Trans European pipelines, which is what Italy was working to do directly with Gaddafi 11 years ago before his death in 2011. I just saw an agreement that Morocco and Algeria I think agreed to let Nigeria send more gas resources though the Pipeline with Spain.

    President Obama, who I voted against twice, has said his worst mistake was failing to plan what would happen after taking out Gaddafi (which ultimately suggest Obama-Biden-Clinton were ultimately behind this with cooperation with the Big 3 EU powers at the time, UK, France and Germany). I give Obama credit for admitting that regime change, even if the leader is an SOB, results in more problems post regime change. I have still not yet seen Bush 2 admit mistakes about his regime change policies.

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    Northerner: Regarding what I said about Italy forming partnerships with SE Europeans countries (i.e.Balkans), I also said along with Central and Eastern Europeans. Greece should be a natural ally. Turkey wants to ship Gas into Greece and wants to link up that pipeline with Italy (The TANAP pipeline) in Brindisi (Puglia). I think Turkey has a huge Gas field in the Black Sea (in its territory) that is expected to come on line in 2023.

    If Meloni wins, call the Polish leaders. Poland in 2020 signed a 20 year LNG gas deal with the USA (during Trump's presidency) specifically to reduce reliance on "Russian Oil and Gas". Remember Trump calling out Frauleine Merkel and the Germans for "getting Europe to dependent on Russian Oil and Gas". I sure do.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/pola...-idUSL8N2E12PB

    Again here is the current North African to Europe pipeline network. Notice the red line from Nigeria to Algeria. Morroco just signed a deal with Nigeria to let Nigerian gas flow through its borders to Spain. Even you pointed out that the Germans are now "working with Spain" (not dictating to Spain) to get France on board. France and Algeria are not on best terms do to France not acknowledging it did many Nuclear test in Algeria's desert on the one hand (Algerian perspective) and Algeria not working with France to help deport criminal illegal migrants. I suspect the diplomatic tension between France and Algeria is the hold up.

    https://en.populationdata.net/maps/a...gas-pipelines/

    But in light of the North African gas network into Europe. Italy is indeed in a strategic position. Italy can sign a deal with Tunisia, Algeria and Nigeria to ship Gas into Italy via Sicily and Sardinia along with working with Libya to ship it directly into Gela in Sicily. Connecting Brindisi with Greece and linking up Turkey could provide another source. Seem to me a network from Turkey through Greece into Italy in Brindisi (Puglia) can be linked with the pipeline coming into Sicily somewhere in Calabria. Gas then can be shipped from Nigeria all the through North Africa into Italy and then back through Greece into the Balkans then well into Central Europe, etc.

    So I can look at a map, look at existing infrastructure (which Italy is already significantly linked into) and see Italy's potential to be a major player in the Gas distribution process in Europe. And rather than being dictated to by the likes of Merkel when she was in charge of Germany, or Macron in France, they can negotiate the terms from a position of lets say "equal partners" or lets say strategic leverage (to be diplomatic, not a power play which has always been the method of the major EU Western European powers, Germany and France).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    Indeed no conclusion. Partly practically because I was too tired and not sharp enough to draw a conclusion. Besides that I think I can't draw conclusions. I have the feeling that I have a correspondence with someone who has definitely another worldview, nevertheless with a quit calm tone...

    My personal experiences with Brussel the EU are sort. I did a job(not for long) for the University and had some meeting in Brussel. Pfff I don't fit in that technocratic bubble. I'm too hard mouthed and in general I don't fit in that Brussel technocrat picture...I'm more into local, regional, national an in fact international political things. The EU never drew really my attention. May be to short sighted from me because it's certainly a factor (indeed take the food regulations etc). But the passion for that fails. So may be I'm not quit the person to function as a kind of 'EU spokesman'.

    The thing that I find important is that we lived after ww2 (apart from the Balkan) for about 75 years in peace and prosperity. That's really a core thing. Until Putin invaded the Ukraine. To forcible his czarist dreams, or Rus dreams (Kyiv as starting point etc). All exaggerated things because in fact the decline of the SU. Putin staid the KGB man he ever was, but now mixed with Eastern Orthodox and ultra nationalist visions. Now the invasion of the Ukraine, initial aimed for a few days, is going to be a debacle. And the 'brother folk' is terrorized, raped, tortured. And from fare away -stan boys are delivered as cannon fodder.

    I don't think the EU ought to be a factor in this, at least not as a warmachine, it was never build as a state with an army etc. I really think the Germans have to be on track again. Are the Italians, Dutch, French ready to accept this? Until then the NATO is still in position for this, it's no coincidence Finland and Sweden want to join it! I don't have much trouble with the US. Unless they still continue to choose president that functions as unguided projectile, leaving top state secrets lying around in private homes and having conducted 4000 trials in 30 years...idiotic. Prudence, prudence, prudence!

    Grandpa Biden has also clearly had his day (which includes that man wanting to choose another four years). But Putin has repeatedly indicated that he sees a formidable opponent in him. He is one of the most eloquent politicians in foreign affairs. He did not allow himself to be reared in the Ukraine crisis (directed by a department or not). What do you think he did wrong for the Ukraine?

    And for the blue-banana you gave to the interests of others, but what is the importance of Northern Italy in this matter? What's the point of drawing borders against other parts of the European economic core area? What do you think of the Palermo ideas to focus Italy completely on the Balkans? Is that glorious future there?
    @Northener,


    I obviously didn't mean to attack you: I am rarely radical in my opinions, the world is too complex for reason to be only on one side, so I respect your ideas.
    It is true that Europe has experienced and enjoyed 70-odd years of (apparent) peace and prosperity. However, I believe at this point that it was more the result of a fortunate conjuncture, a phenomenon that proceeded by inertia until it basically died out in recent decades. It is very complicated to synthesise this process, but I believe that once the effects of the Marshall Plan with which the Old World was rebuilt and put back on its feet by the US after the Second World War wore off, and once the 'Founding Fathers' - i.e. the old generation of politicians who experienced the world conflict at first hand - were gone, there was no longer an effective and genuine propulsive thrust to this project.


    As I wrote in Palermo, the EU was already born a bit lame, because at its origins it is a mere economic community (and perhaps it could not have been otherwise, given the very different nature and history of its members). And the moment it was decided to make it a supranational political structure, the economic interests of the most prosperous member states inevitably prevailed. This is why I speak of 'apparent peace': there are conflicts within the union, only instead of guns, financial turbulence (see the spread) is used and/or common funds are taken away from this or that country to put it in difficulty. It happened to Berlusconi, quite easily it will happen to Meloni if she wins.
    What little politics the EU shows is more a reflection of what happens and what is wanted in Washington (especially if it is of the Democratic brand, and from this channel comes that heavy aura of woke culture that is adopted in our continent with manifest levelling and propagandistic functions). While NATO acts as a common army that recruited locally could hardly exist, because there the divergent political wills of the various countries would become apparent.


    In practice, such a mess can only stand up in normal, run-of-the-mill times.
    The Russian-Ukrainian conflict, on the other hand, brings many knots to the boil. There are at least two unforgivable mistakes: the first is to have understood nothing about Russia and its styles of government and power management. They made it a residual phenomenon, but that is not the case. Certainly, it is autarkic, archaic and in its own way 'barbaric' by our standards, but precisely for that reason it deserved an attention and caution that in the past decades has not been forthcoming in the West. If I have a ferocious animal in front of me, I do not go and tease it, neither now nor then. Full stop.
    The second mistake is to forget that the geopolitical space in which the war would take place would be Europe itself. This time there are no buffer zones to allow us to be just listless and distracted spectators, this time the protagonists are us.
    And the EU has really turned out to be a dwarf at this juncture.


    On the possible influence that Italy and northern Italy in particular may have in the Balkans, I think Palermo can give you a better answer. Somewhere I read that Germany is already surreptitiously extending its sights on those areas, which makes me think that it is an area with a lot of potential, but now I cannot be more specific. As far as I see it, as long as our political class proves to be subordinate to certain Franco-German approaches, northern Italy may well be part of the Blue Banana, but under marginal conditions. In the Balkans it could perhaps become a leader, also thanks to a certain old cultural and rural background common to Old (Mediterranean) Europe.

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    Stuvane: Any updates on the elections. I am trying to watch Tele Italia but the "parlare Italiano" is moving a little to fast for me to keep up in real time. But from what I gathered, Her party is the primary party in the elections.

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    Now all we need is the unhinged Biden to be thrown in the trash where he belongs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I agree, glad to see Meloni won

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    Stuvane: Any updates on the elections. I am trying to watch Tele Italia but the "parlare Italiano" is moving a little to fast for me to keep up in real time. But from what I gathered, Her party is the primary party in the elections.
    @Palermo

    Last updates this morning
    https://www.corriere.it/elezioni/ris...2/camera.shtml

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuvanè View Post
    Thanks Stuvane: Meloni did well in every region.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    Thanks Stuvane: Meloni did well in every region.


    Indeed, this is what legitimacy looks like. I'm sure Joe Biden and Ursula Von Der Leyen will now be the enemies of democracy, because they believe they voted "the wrong way".

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    I agree with many of her positions, but I most emphatically do not agree that ALL abortions, without exception, should be banned. Nor do I think same sex couples should not be allowed to form civil domestic partnerships.

    I also smell hypocrisy. If she's such a Christian woman, why isn't she married in the Church.

    Even more worrying, I do not at all like her approval of Giorgio Almirante, a Nazi collaborator, Anti-Semite of the first order, and racist extraordinaire. A proponent of the disgraceful racial laws foisted upon us by the Nazis was a "great patriot"? A great traitor is what he was, like all the unforced supporters of the Republic of Salo.

    As for not celebrating the defeat of the Nazis and the Fascists, that's a complete disgrace. Many of the partisans may have been Socialists and Communists, and so deluded imo, but they were on the right side of history, not the Italians licking German boots.

    Also, let's not forget that these are votes for a central-right coalition, not for Fratelli Italia itself, which pulled about 25% of the vote.

    As Stuvane alluded to, I hope that the votes represent people who support this coalition because it's the only alternative to the left, and not because they want a return to the idiotic policies of the 30s, policies which led once again to the destruction of our country.

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    Angela: I understand your points about Meloni using the I am Christian, I am a Mother, etc, etc. Perhaps that is taking a shot at many of the EU Leaders I would assume, most who do not have kids, etc. I don't know. I do know the EU pushed Italy to I think stop local business owners from having religious references in their business, for local politicians to not make mention of Christmas, Easter (Pascha), no references to Christ, Mary, Joseph, etc. etc. and take out any references to historical ties of Italy to what amounts to a 2,000 year history dating back to the Apostles Peter and Paul

    You I am quite sure I have been to more parts of Italy than I have (I have only been to Rome and Sicily) but in Sicily at least, there is still a strong at least cultural attachment to traditional Catholicism at the local level. If some politician would push for a town to not to have a day to honor the local patron saint, that politician will not survive. In every shop and restaurant I went to. it seems I saw a painting the Last Supper, a Crucifix, maybe a picture Mary and Infant Christ, Padre Pio was often seen, in Palermo region references to Santa Rosalia (my maternal Grandmothers first name) are common. There is a major, major, feast day all over the Palermo province in honor of her there.

    So perhaps her use of I am a Christian and a Mother was heartfelt and at the same time also somewhat strategic in that here usage of that was a direct shot at the EU in Brussels again dictating on the internal affairs of Italy regarding religious symbolism. Why she isn't Married in the Church? Not sure.

    Yes it was a Center Right Coalition with Salvini's League and Berlusconi's Forza Parties also gathering significant votes. So in that regards, it will not be a party dominated by Meloni herself. If I were her, I would work with Salvini more so than Berlusconi, but that is just me.

    As for Almirante, was his involvement in the shooting of partisans rooted in support for Germany are his strident anti-Communist views. In other words, was it more rooted say in Nationalistic vs. Communist inter Italian dynamics, similar I guess to Franco's Nationalist vs. the Communist in Spain.

    Perhaps I am wrong but I never got most of the Italian Fascist were pro Hitler, they were just stridently anti-Communist and anti Stalinist. Now I agree the partisans were as you say fighting against the Germans who were occupying the country, since the fall of 1943 Italy declared neutrality and the Germans cracked down. So the partisans/Communist were at least on that correct side of history in that regard, but the Italian communist being a puppet of Ole Joe Stalin to me was the just the opposite side of the same totalitarian evil coin, in my view.

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    ^^
    For years he wrote for a journal called La Difesa della Razza. It was the worst kind of Jew baiting publication; an absolute disgrace.

    It slavishly copied the filth coming out of Germany for an Italian audience.

    There is absolutely no defending it.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Difesa_della_Razza

    Fascism was supported by and benefited the industrial and agricultural oligarchs of Italy. Ironically, that's why so many early Fascists were Jewish industrialists from the northeast.* National pride and a supposed concern for the poor was how it was sold to the people. The real nationalists, at least in my area, supported the King, not the Fascists. Some of the partisan groups whom the Italian fascists happily killed were supporters of the King, ex-soldiers from the army and navy of the King, and members of various Catholic groups.

    The fact that Meloni joined right wing organizations so young tells me she probably comes from a family of collaborators, as often happens in Italy. Political allegiances can travel down the family tree.

    Had I voted, I could not have voted for her unless she denounced the alliance with the Nazis which Mussolini made, the Republic of Salo, and the murders committed by the Italian fascists of their own people.

    Young and even middle-aged Italians apparently have a very short memory. I don't.

    There is no excuse for Fascism as a political ideology, even without the accretion of Anti-Semitism thanks to the Germans, and belongs on the dust bin of history, along with Communism.

    Ed.
    * Northwest, primarily Piemonte and some from Lombardia.
    Last edited by Angela; 27-09-22 at 04:04.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    ^^
    For years he wrote for a journal called La Difesa della Razza. It was the worst kind of Jew baiting publication; an absolute disgrace.

    It slavishly copied the filth coming out of Germany for an Italian audience.

    There is absolutely no defending it.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Difesa_della_Razza

    Fascism was supported by and benefited the industrial and agricultural oligarchs of Italy. Ironically, that's why so many early Fascists were Jewish industrialists from the northeast. National pride and a supposed concern for the poor was how it was sold to the people. The real nationalists, at least in my area, supported the King, not the Fascists. Some of the partisan groups whom the Italian fascists happily killed were supporters of the King, ex-soldiers from the army and navy of the King, and members of various Catholic groups.

    The fact that Meloni joined right wing organizations so young tells me she probably comes from a family of collaborators, as often happens in Italy. Political allegiances can travel down the family tree.

    Had I voted, I could not have voted for her unless she denounced the alliance with the Nazis which Mussolini made, the Republic of Salo, and the murders committed by the Italian fascists of their own people.

    Young and even middle-aged Italians apparently have a very short memory. I don't.

    There is no excuse for Fascism as a political ideology, even without the accretion of Anti-Semitism thanks to the Germans, and belongs on the dust bin of history, along with Communism.
    Ok, thanks for the information. I always assumed the conflicts were with the Communist, so the it appears the internal Italian political situation was also tied to some who still supported the Monarchy (Monarchist) and Catholic groups.

    As for Meloni, I think her Mother was actually from a Sicilian working class family who moved to Rome and got married there. Her Father, from what I gathered was a Communist, active in the 1970's which was a time when the Communist were the major domestic threat internally (The Red Brigades). I think her Father left the family and she was raised in Rome by her mother.

    I am no Psychologist but perhaps some of her stances are deep down tied to a hatred of her Father and failure to forgive him and move beyond him abandoning her and her Mother for Communist politics.

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    The armed forces of the nation state of Italy were under the nominal control of the King, although he became a puppet of Mussolini.

    The chaotic nature of the Italian Armistice meant that many Italian soldiers and naval men were imprisoned or killed by the Germans as traitors. Those who could escape from the POW camps went to the mountains to join the partisans.

    The Fascist Brigades are another story completely.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Brigades

    "The Black Brigades were frequently involved in support of German units during anti-partisan operations which resulted in massacres of the Italian civilian population, like at the Sant'Anna di Stazzema massacre in Tuscany where the 36th Brigata helped the SS kill the entire village population of around 560 persons in August 1944. Or the Vinca massacre where 162 civilians were executed and where the 40. Brigata nera “Vittorio Ricciarelli” di Livorno was involved.[13]"

    All of them and others like them, as well as the members of the SS and Wehrmacht who participated in war crimes on Italian soil should have been executed after the war, but few were.

    "After September 1943, partisan Resistance groups were active throughout northern and much of central Italy. Often they were former soldiers cut off from home and still in possession of their weapons. Many were young men fleeing Mussolini’s attempts to conscript them. Others were urban evacuees or released prisoners of war. Many were recruited, organized, and armed by the anti-Fascist parties or at least owed vague allegiance to one of them. They were most active in summer in the hills and mountains, where they were usually supported by the peasants, and they tied down thousands of German troops. In some areas they were a virtual armed uprising against not only the Germans and Fascists but also against the local landowners. Partisans were fighting three types of war: a civil war against Italian Fascists, a war of national liberation against German occupation, and a class war against the ruling elites. Communist Party groups fought all three types. Catholic or monarchist partisans, on the other hand, fought only one or two of these. There were also terrorist groups operating in the cities, and major strikes in industrial areas sabotaged war production. Sometimes, different partisan groups came into conflict with each other, but in general the Resistance was united. Nonetheless, those who actually fought as partisans were a small minority of Italians, and most civilians and ex-soldiers simply waited for the war to end. In all, about 200,000 partisans took part in the Resistance, and German or Fascist forces killed some 70,000 Italians (including both partisans and civilians) for Resistance activities."

    If you count the peasants and "average" people in the cities, including a lot of women, who helped them, the number is much larger.

    Perhaps you're right about Meloni; perhaps it's all personal, and given her ancestry (Sardinia and Sicilia, it seems) and history, and the lack of a university education maybe some of this would be news to her. Sad, if true.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Left-wing terrorist murderer out on bail! He should be executed.
    https://www.foxnews.com/us/cayler-el...shannon-brandt

    "I have a job, a life and a house and things that I don't exactly want to see go by the wayside — family that are very important to me," Brandt said.

    What a piece of garbage, and very typical of people like him. They should hang him by his neck until he is dead.

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