Politics "WOKE" America

@Angela
I don't see what mistake would we be repeating, Italy is no longer a country of starved illiterate people swayed by fascinations of war or repressive regimes, quite the contrary. I also don't see what policies you are referring to, in fact I was so perplexed at the level of misunderstanding and misrepresentation of her policies in this thread that I felt the need to dust off this account and write a brief reply. All her statements so far are in line with what she campaigned and she isn't even President yet, when and if she is nominated in a couple of weeks we might see how coherent she is with her campaign.

I find these accusations of collaborator families levelled at strangers in 2022 to be extremely puzzling and anachronistic, ultimately I see them a sign of not having a proper grasp on the dynamics of modern Italian society.
 
Jovialis said:
NORTHERNER, Where do these violent ANTIFA Domestic Terrorists fall on your pyramid? Are you going to defend their behavior?
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They fall in the same category as every ideological hardliner, like you but then most probably from some kind of alt right.
Alt right or hard boiled left same attitude. It's no coincidental that someone like Mussolini turned from deep red to deep swarth.

I guess the core of horseshoe theory is right:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory
 
Northener said:
They fall in the same category as every ideological hardliner, like you but then most probably from some kind of alt right.
Alt right or hard boiled left same attitude. It's no coincidental that someone like Mussolini turned from deep red to deep swarth.

I guess the core of horseshoe theory is right:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory
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Like me... I've never and never will commit political violence. 9 times out of 10 it is a left-winger that will commit political violence. Lucky for them it is state-sanctioned, because they receive zero consequences. That's why they do it, because they're cowards, who know that they will be let of the hook.
 
Jovialis said:
Like me... I've never and never will commit political violence. 9 times out of 10 it is a left-winger that will commit political violence. Lucky for them it is state-sanctioned, because they receive zero consequences. That's why they do it, because they're cowards, who know that they will be let of the hook.
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I will not suspect you of violence certainly not! But I can actual see that you do argue like an ideological hardliner: seeing people as an extension of an alleged ideology, ad hominem, naming and shaming, puking people out personally it is not strange to you. This can easily shown by some quotes of you. So when you use this I will- with permission- not react.
 
Northener said:
I will not suspect you of violence certainly not! But I can actual see that you do argue like an ideological hardliner: seeing people as an extension of an alleged ideology, ad hominem, naming and shaming, puking people out personally it is not strange to you. This can easily shown by some quotes of you. So when you use this I will- with permission- not react.
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It is time to lower the temperature... Believe it or not, I don't dislike you. In fact, I think you're a pretty smart guy. We just disagree on a number of things. But you know what, that's fine with me. Because I believe in tolerance. I don't agree, but I tolerate your view. On top of that, I will be the first to apologize for any disrespectful remarks.
 
Jovialis said:
It is time to lower the temperature... Believe it or not, I don't dislike you. In fact, I think you're a pretty smart guy. We just disagree on a number of things. But you know what, that's fine with me. Because I believe in tolerance. I don't agree, but I tolerate your view. On top of that, I will be the first to apologize for any disrespectful remarks.
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Ok but be aware you use lots of ad hominems.

Nevermind the murders, rapes, economic decline, riots, arsons, criminals that get a slap on the wrist for it, the families and people destroyed in the process etc committed by people who subscribe to your beliefs.


You disgust me, your ignorance is a disgrace!
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I think there is a distinction between a 'believe' and a person. I don't see them as one. You obviously do. And you seem to know my beliefs. Imo you know nothing about North European Social Democracy, that is in the US an unknown phenomenon always badly understood. Besides that I am not the social democracy, I have my autonomy!

You disgust me is very emotional and on the person, at least in my culture.

Thank you for your time comrade.
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Comrad is communist. Ok a joke. But how would ypu react if I stated back "ave" of "heil" with a stretched right arm, because that equals to me the word comrade.

Cry me a river. Get over it, or don't I could care less TBH.
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Also ad hominem.

All well Jovialis I hate litanie etc but don't state you never use ad hominems or naming.....
 
Northener said:
Ok but be aware you use lots of ad hominems.



Translation: you are responsible for my beliefs. I think there is a distinction between a believe of something and a person. I don't see them as one. Ypu obviously do. And you seem to know my beliefs. Imo you know nothing about North European Social Democracy, that is in the US an unknown phenomenon always badly understood. Besides that I am not the social democracy, I have my autonomy!

You disgust me is very emotional and on the person, at least in my culture.



Comrad is communist. Ok a joke. But how would ypu react if I stated back "ave" of "heil" with a stretched right arm, because that equals to me the word comrade.


Also ad hominem.

All well Jovialis I hate litanie etc but don't state you never use ad hominems or naming.....
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Okay, but you know nothing of the United States, or the political atmosphere here, outside of what you hear from a very left-leaning media. You can disagree about that, but I live here. I am educated here. I was born here, and raised here. I have been deep into politics before I was into genetics. One of my majors was U.S. Political Science. Therefore, I find it to be extremely annoying when a foreigner with a limited scope tries to lecture me.

I am not going to take the time to re-litigate the past, but there are many rude comments you have made. You are not without sin, I can assure you. Offenses have been made towards me by you.

I hope you are not snubbing my peace offering, because in my culture, yes we are impassioned, but I can be cold and calculating in revenge. I am trying not to be your enemy.

That being said, let us move on.
 
Jovialis said:
Okay, but you know nothing of the United States, or the political atmosphere here, outside of what you hear from a very left-leaning media. You can disagree about that, but I live here. I am educated here. I was born here, and raised here. I have been deep into politics before I was into genetics. One of my majors was U.S. political Science. Therefore, I find it to be extremely annoying when a foreigner with a limited scope tries to lecture me.

I am not going to take the time to re-litigate the past, but there are many rude comments you have made. You are not without sin, I can assure you. Offenses have been made towards me by you.

I hope you are not snubbing my peace offering, because in my culture, yes we are impassioned, but I can be cold and calculating in revenge.

That being said, let us move on.
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In one thing is may be Angela right about me I'm typical North Dutch so argumentative, critical, stubborn, with a more or less calvinistic attitude (although my family was originally catholic but ok the culture here is pretty Calvinistic).

Why I don't easily get from specific Italians is that-imo repeat imo- it easliy get personal and emotional very fast offended. At least that is very often the impression I get. If I would do this in my region people shake their head or don't take you serious any longer, because this means you are losing temper and that is seen as a bad sign....how differentiated cultures can be!

But be asure I can be short, without much words or egard, but really I always aim the bal not the man. Really you don't get me fast losing my temper in that sense....And agree I'm not a saint. But I try to keep it on the bal not on the man.

But correct me If I'm wrong where did I made the 'mistake' to play the man, really show, so I can learn. But sometimes the cultural codes can be so different that I think I play just the ball....but someone can think he gets personal.
 
Jovialis said:
Okay, but you know nothing of the United States, or the political atmosphere here, outside of what you hear from a very left-leaning media. You can disagree about that, but I live here. I am educated here. I was born here, and raised here. I have been deep into politics before I was into genetics. One of my majors was U.S. Political Science. Therefore, I find it to be extremely annoying when a foreigner with a limited scope tries to lecture me.

I am not going to take the time to re-litigate the past, but there are many rude comments you have made. You are not without sin, I can assure you. Offenses have been made towards me by you.

I hope you are not snubbing my peace offering, because in my culture, yes we are impassioned, but I can be cold and calculating in revenge. I am trying not to be your enemy.

That being said, let us move on.
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And with regard to the US, your right in that sense you are living in the US, so you are on the ground. Makes it differentiated. Nevertheless I try to read and see as much as I can about the US politics too. Fascinating! And I read right wing as left wing papers and magazine.

But as I sometimes think your 'yeah right', for example about the Morgenthau of Malaparte for Germany, that's really not the case here in Europe....I can imagine that also can be reverse the case.

And in some sense I lost the sense with the US when it comes to the deep trenches in the US, the q-anon, deep state, conspiracy type a thing, I sincerely don't get it.

But it stays fascinating!
 
Jovialis said:
I hope you are not snubbing my peace offering, because in my culture, yes we are impassioned, but I can be cold and calculating in revenge. I am trying not to be your enemy.
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Just for fun:
https://directdutch.com/2014/10/ten-things-i-love-about-the-dutch/

[h=2]7. Dutch assertiveness[/h] Dutch assertiveness can come across as rude (onbeschoft / lomp) and sometimes even a bit aggressive. If you are not good at sticking up for yourself, you can easily become the victim in a conflict. Having at least one Dutch friend, male or female, can be handy!
[h=2]8. Anyone can criticise anyone[/h]Dutch organisations have a flat structure. This means you can, and will, be criticised by anyone in the company, from the boss to the trainee.In general the Dutch are not ashamed when a mistake is pointed out to them (“Bedankt, dat je me op deze fout wijst”). They see this as a chance to correct the mistake and to learn.It might be painful at first, but showing you can take criticism is considered a great virtue here.
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Northener said:
And with regard to the US, your right in that sense you are living in the US, so you are on the ground. Makes it differentiated. Nevertheless I try to read and see as much as I can about the US politics too. Fascinating! And I read right wing as left wing papers and magazine.

But as I sometimes think your 'yeah right', for example about the Morgenthau of Malaparte for Germany, that's really not the case here in Europe....I can imagine that also can be reverse the case.

And in some sense I lost the sense with the US when it comes to the deep trenches in the US, the q-anon, deep state, conspiracy type a thing, I sincerely don't get it.

But it stays fascinating!
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My opinion of Germany and the EU, is that you are vassals of the U.S. Neo-Con/Neo-Liberal-run state.

But don't feel bad, because the people who rule this country would probably like to forever silence people like me.
 
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Jovialis said:
My opinion of Germany and the EU, is that you are vassals of the U.S. Neo-Con/Neo-Liberal-run state.

But don't feel bad, because the people who rule this country would probably like to forever silence people like me.
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Thanks for the comment from Canada ;)

I'm Dutch!

One thing in my country is that freedom of speech is a core thing. You don't have to be silent.

With regard to the US, our declaration of independence stood model for the US one, tribute of the former US president:


And not so long ago it looked like the reverse....we do have a long memory ;)

 
Jovialis said:
FBI whistleblower: Counterterrorism cases against alleged right-wing extremists mostly ‘entrapment’
The FBI’s counterterrorism investigations targeting suspected White supremacists and right-wing extremists are mostly “entrapment” operations, a former agent involved in those cases told The Washington Times.
The startling accusation came from Kyle Seraphin, an FBI agent of six years who was recently suspended by the bureau. He worked in multiple field offices in the counterterrorism division and conducted investigations of suspected domestic extremism and White supremacist plots over the past few years.


“My team was deployed to 20 or 25 different high-profile, national terrorism organization or terrorism investigations between 2018 and 2021. And what I saw, as the most obvious statement, is that there are three things about counterterrorism investigations:
“No. 1, the demand for White supremacy vastly outstrips the supply of White supremacy. No. 2, the FBI’s playbook when it comes to counterterrorism investigations is always and unequivocally morally equivalent to entrapment, even if there’s a legal definition that allows them to skirt that.” Mr. Seraphin said.FBI whistleblower: Counterterrorism cases against alleged right-wing extremists mostly 'entrapment' - Washington Times
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30 ex-FBI agents stand up to support whistleblower who exposed bias (nypost.com)
 
I've made my reservations about Giorgia Meloni's past associations plain, but it's unconscionable that a youtube video of a clip from one of her speeches from 2019, which hit over 20 million views in 24 hours, was taken down by youtube.

After some push back from conservatives, youtube "relented", and someone has put it up again, but minus, of course, the data which shows it reached that 20M number in 24 hours.


The assaults on freedom of expression have to stop, and if it requires a Republican Congress to impose consequences on companies like twitter, you tube etc.,so be it.

This is the entire speech. She certainly can fire up the crowd, more than the non-entities who usually run for office in Italy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qWwUUh1P_k
 
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