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Thread: "WOKE" America

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    You're right about everything except the classification of "Hispanic whites". "White" Hispanics largely of Cuban origin demanded the classification. I sometimes think there is more racism within the Hispanic community than without it. The Cubans who fled Castro had no idea they had a minority of Black and Amerindian ancestry, and a lot of them weren't very happy about it. The same is true of the descendants of the settlers of New Mexico etc. A U.S. Senator from there took a dna test on a public tv program and when asked what she expected it to show she said: Spanish. She was stunned to see she was almost 30% Amerindian. This is someone whose community demanded that "white" Hispanic population label.

    It's not been the government demanding these labels, not since the 1960s at the latest; it's the minorities. Sometimes it's to show their identity as "white", something that Middle Easterners went to court to achieve in the early 20th century, for example, and sometimes it's so that they can qualify for all the governmental programs aimed at minorities which were passed after the 1960s in a blizzard of beneficial legislation . One of our Presidential candidates, for example, claimed American Indian status to get preferential acceptance into college and to get a job as a Professor (to meet quotas for minority representation).

    One reason blacks and "non-white" Hispanics want those identity labels is because they can use the census figures to demand reconfiguration of voting districts and thereby guarantee minority members in legislatures. It's also, as I said, to get into college independent of good SAT scores, to get jobs for which there is a quota, to get favorable loans for business start ups and buying a house etc.

    These things are much more complicated than they might seem to outsiders.
    Absurd that identity thing drives the US (or even Europe) to the Yugo scenario....disgusting. Either McCulloch white nationalism, also along the Trumpist (the proud boys) to sections of BLM and obviously the Hispanics too. Even Gaska begins about the Spanish America revival

    I'm more comfortable with a sense of color blindness. Those sharp identity things leads only to hatred and wars....nothing good.
    Last edited by Northener; 18-04-21 at 20:29.

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    One thing that's a problem in the United States is the post-Civil War tabooing of states' rights has made every federal election life or death. And as a Gen Xer I do like to blame the millennials for everything but in this case it is more of an accident of history. The fall of the Soviet Union and election of moderate Democrat Bill Clinton and his Third Way economics happened almost simultaneously; all at once the Republican Party had lost two of its three 1980s standards as Clinton governed as a Rockefeller Republican! The only thing left was evangelicals, and that was reinforced by the election of George W. Bush in 2000. That is the Republican Party to millennials-chiefly college educated ones, though that is most, at least in my neck of the woods-with the Democrats as socially progressive, economically moderate rationals while the Republicans are dangerous beardless Talibani who want to take away their precious abortions (notwithstanding the fact evangelicals are Protestant and wouldn't touch contraception, and we have hundreds of variants of that, as well as the fact that the only biology they teach at public schools is that we're descended from monkeys and there is no god and not the fact that the sex act exists for the propagation of offspring and not the capstone of a fun Saturday night); witness the fetishization of the late Ruth Bader Ginsburg in the latter years of her life. The Third Way current in the Democratic party pretty much died out at the Great Recession, so what these upper-middle-class white people are electing are either hard socialists or racial 'equity' enthusiasts, who raise the taxes and drive these self-absorbed neo-Yuppies out of state. It's what happened to California, and is well on its way to happening in Colorado.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaska View Post
    In all European countries there is racism, here in Spain Vox, has obtained 52 deputies in Congress and has even won in one region (precisely where there are more Moors and South American migrants). But it is true that in Europe racial classifications have never been used in the census. I think Americans do it because they are afraid especially of Hispanics. You have to keep in mind that the United States is the second country in the world with the most Spanish speakers after Mexico and ahead of Colombia and Spain. Hispanic according to the census is not a race but an ethnicity (within that category you can be white, black, asian or mestizo). In this way, the USA differentiate non-Hispanic whites from Hispanic whites and thus try to control the cultural and demographic influence of that minority in the country.

    But this classification makes Mexicans, Colombians, Guatemalans, etc. living in the United States feel culturally and racially united so that even though they integrate they will always try to maintain their language, religion and customs. Many think that they are recovering and repopulating states that were always Spanish (Texas, Florida, Arizona, Nevada, New Mexico, California, etc.) and when they have enough demographic and economic strength, they will undoubtedly end up imposing their policies against “white” officialism.

    Americans should understand that the oldest city in the United States is St. Augustine (Florida, founded by the Spanish Governor of the State) and that the oldest State capital is Santa Fe (New Mexico). The official history of the Founding Fathers and the colonization of the West only serves a part of the population that identifies with those values. The American Indians and their Mexican cousins etc. will try to impose theirs at least in those states where they get a majority.

    In a few decades, whites will end up as minorities in all western countries because we are not able to control illegal immigration, and interracial confrontations will become more frequent.
    migration will inevitably lead to the native population slowly becoming minority illegal or legal. and here it makes in my opinion no sense to talk about "whites" because what are "whites" exactly? they are first and foremost a cultural group if at all. if you can manage to properly integrate people it doesn't matter what color their skin has. and it will also not matter how the populations is "racially" structured. of course it also requires a change of thinking of what exactly makes someone belong to a nationality.

    the thing with the Hispanics, if true, would only be an indication that america failed to create a national identity that isn't also partially based on racial identity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    Absurd that identity think drives the US (or even Europe) to the Yugo scenario....disgusting. Either McCulloch white nationalism, also along the Trumpist (the proud boys) to sections of BLM and obviously the Hispanics too. Even Gaska begins about the Spanish America revival

    I'm more comfortable with a sense of color blindness. Those sharp identity things leads only to hatred and wars....nothing good.
    Completely agree. I thought that's what the marches and demonstrations were all about, and now the far left radical fringe is bringing back identity groups by color to govern anything.

    Whatever happened to Martin Luther King's: Every man should be judged by the content of his character, not the color of his skin?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    migration will inevitably lead to the native population slowly becoming minority illegal or legal. and here it makes in my opinion no sense to talk about "whites" because what are "whites" exactly? they are first and foremost a cultural group if at all. if you can manage to properly integrate people it doesn't matter what color their skin has. and it will also not matter how the populations is "racially" structured. of course it also requires a change of thinking of what exactly makes someone belong to a nationality.

    the thing with the Hispanics, if true, would only be an indication that america failed to create a national identity that isn't also partially based on racial identity.
    Then so is Switzerland. They won't even let "tan-ish" people in. Plus, Switzerland can't even formulate a national identity: it's all based on ethnicity and language.

    As we sometimes have to say in court; you have no standing to criticize other countries. Fix your own mess first.

    Since you don't seem to be versed in the biologic theories of racism, i.e. the inferiority of non-European, non-white peoples, they were created by English and German anthropologists. Start with Chamberlain. He was followed by lots of others.

    Your reflexive, uninformed anti-Americanism is getting boring as well as annoying. You really should try to educate yourself before you engage in debate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    migration will inevitably lead to the native population slowly becoming minority illegal or legal. and here it makes in my opinion no sense to talk about "whites" because what are "whites" exactly? they are first and foremost a cultural group if at all. if you can manage to properly integrate people it doesn't matter what color their skin has. and it will also not matter how the populations is "racially" structured. of course it also requires a change of thinking of what exactly makes someone belong to a nationality.

    the thing with the Hispanics, if true, would only be an indication that america failed to create a national identity that isn't also partially based on racial identity.

    The French have not failed to integrate the Hungarian, Polish, Spanish, Italian or Portuguese migrants who arrived in the country in the second decade of the 20th century. However, they have failed to integrate a large number of Maghrebi or African migrants who continue to live in ghettos. After two or three generations, they fail to integrate and provoke more and more racial riots. You only have to walk around Marseille, Nice or Paris to see what is happening. The problem is not the race or the color of the people but their culture, their ideas and of course the economy. If they feel rejected, they will close in on themselves and become more radical (Islamic terrorism, indigenism etc). So the problem is not the system which I think is being supergenerous but the capacity of integration of certain minorities and the fact that Western societies are not as rich and prosperous as they were in the 20th century.

    I know the United States well, and Hispanics are not going to be a problem in the long run if they manage to integrate into American society. America has not failed to create a national identity. In fact, when I was in Santa Fe, the New Mexicans felt absolutely patriotic even though their concept of patriotism was not the same as that of a New England Anglo. They were proud of their Spanish surnames, made processions with the coats of arms of their ancestors and considered themselves more American than the European migrants (Irish, Jews, Greeks, Italians, etc.) who they considered newcomers. Another thing is the new migrants Mexicans, Colombians, Venezuelans, Peruvians etc... when we talk to them, they simply think that they have the right to enter the United States because after all those states belonged to the Viceroyalty of New Spain and the Americans took away the lands of their ancestors. It is the perfect excuse to justify their invasion. We are going to witness a terrible struggle for power because the leftists are going to take advantage of the complexes, the weakness and the feeling of guilt of Western society to obtain unjust benefits

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Then so is Switzerland. They won't even let "tan-ish" people in. Plus, Switzerland can't even formulate a national identity: it's all based on ethnicity and language.

    As we sometimes have to say in court; you have no standing to criticize other countries. Fix your own mess first.

    Since you don't seem to be versed in the biologic theories of racism, i.e. the inferiority of non-European, non-white peoples, they were created by English and German anthropologists. Start with Chamberlain. He was followed by lots of others.

    Your reflexive, uninformed anti-Americanism is getting boring as well as annoying. You really should try to educate yourself before you engage in debate.
    i thought about adding the sentence "before someone comes and says europe isn't much better, yes i know(not just switzerland/germany/eastern europe)" to my post. but i thought it was kinda irrelevant.
    your anti-germany/switzerland sentiment is getting boring too you know. "they won't even let tan-ish people in" lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    You're right about everything except the classification of "Hispanic whites". "White" Hispanics largely of Cuban origin demanded the classification. I sometimes think there is more racism within the Hispanic community than without it. The Cubans who fled Castro had no idea they had a minority of Black and Amerindian ancestry, and a lot of them weren't very happy about it. The same is true of the descendants of the settlers of New Mexico etc. A U.S. Senator from there took a dna test on a public tv program and when asked what she expected it to show she said: Spanish. She was stunned to see she was almost 30% Amerindian. This is someone whose community demanded that "white" Hispanic population label.

    It's not been the government demanding these labels, not since the 1960s at the latest; it's the minorities. Sometimes it's to show their identity as "white", something that Middle Easterners went to court to achieve in the early 20th century, for example, and sometimes it's so that they can qualify for all the governmental programs aimed at minorities which were passed after the 1960s in a blizzard of beneficial legislation . One of our Presidential candidates, for example, claimed American Indian status to get preferential acceptance into college and to get a job as a Professor (to meet quotas for minority representation).

    One reason blacks and "non-white" Hispanics want those identity labels is because they can use the census figures to demand reconfiguration of voting districts and thereby guarantee minority members in legislatures. It's also, as I said, to get into college independent of good SAT scores, to get jobs for which there is a quota, to get favorable loans for business start ups and buying a house etc.

    These things are much more complicated than they might seem to outsiders.
    We Spaniards are not very proud of our behavior in the past, in our former colonies we had 16 racial castes starting with white European (born in Spain), Criollos (white descendant of Spaniards but born in America) and followed by mestizos, mulattos, cuarterones, pardos, blacks, Indians etc. .... These classifications are still present in Cuba and in the rest of the American countries, in fact, except for Peru, Bolivia and some other Central American countries, no other country has managed to have indigenous presidents after 200 years of independence, that is to say, the white Criollos continue to maintain power without caring about the consequences of poverty and social injustice.Then you are right, within the Hispanic community there is also a lot of racism. BUT

    Who is the one who qualifies another person as white, what criteria do they use?

    No Percentages of Amerindian, black or Jewish blood?

    Purity of blood as we did the Spaniards who had to prove that we had no Moorish or Jewish blood in 10 generations to enter the army, the church, be teachers, doctors or civil servants?

    Who can say that a Cuban is not white because he has Amerindian or black blood when surely many of those white people of North European descent will have the same percentages (especially those who arrived in the early years of the colony) If these gentlemen met Cameron Diaz on the street, would they say that he is not white despite his Nordic appearance because he has a small percentage of Cuban, Amerindian or black blood? Don't you think it's funny that someone is labeled as belonging to a certain ethnic group simply for speaking Spanish?

    I have never really understood why many northern Europeans and their American redneck friends are obsessed with these racial classifications and why they want to monopolize whiteness-Could someone explain it to me?

    We Basques have had throughout our history a racist behavior that has been a real disaster. Some ultra-nationalist morons continue to think that some people are superior to others because of their physical appearance, the color of their skin, their craniometry or their hemotypology. I have lost friends and family in terrorist attacks committed by Basque fanatics, simply because our political ideas were different. And they did everything in the name of the Basque people, our language, and our race. I hope we are already vaccinated against violence because we have been in peace for many years.

    But that does not mean that we agree with the immigration policies of the European Union, we do not like that foreigners have preference over Spaniards when it comes to receiving social aid or that they are paid houses, subsidies, schools and public health without paying taxes. The European Union is going to commit suicide if it continues to apply these policies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Then so is Switzerland. They won't even let "tan-ish" people in.
    I don't think that's true any more. Over 25% of Switzerland's population is foreign - one of the highest percentage in Europe and it keeps rising steadily year after year. Add to that about half a million of naturalised citizens. Among those foreigners 16% (so 4% of the total population) are from outside Europe, with the Middle East and Africa on top.

    Among the Europeans, many are South Europeans, including 300,000 from ex-Yugoslavia (3.7% of the Swiss population) and 321,000 from Italy (4% of the population).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Being Muslim in the U.S. is considered to be a non-white designation. Regardless of the fact there are genetically white Muslims
    This is a veiw held by both left and right wing people.
    I think that is a recipe for disaster if people start amalgamating ethnicity and religious beliefs. It's only one step away from blending ethnicity and political beliefs. Ethnicity is genes. You can't change it. Religion and politics depend on upbringing, culture, but also personal choice and can evolve a lot (sometimes to the extreme opposite) in one's life time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    Come on West Europe was not part of the "East Bloc" so no vulnerability on that point....

    This was real:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birmingham_campaign
    And not so long ago.

    This is not an attempt to moralize the thing, with a look at Fort Elmina in nowadays Ghana I know the "Dutch contribution" on this issue.

    Nevertheless the US had large plantations on which the slaves lived, that was known in the European colonies, but not inside the European countries.

    This still has a heritage in the US....until today, see the attempt recently in Georgia of the reps to 'prevent certain groups for voting' and the discussion about this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirm...20and%20health.
    To mention some but not all things.

    Of course when you live in a country you are better informed (mostly), nevertheless we read papers, watch TV, have internet....and that is not controlled by the Ruski's, the Chinese or whatsoever, we have a long history of free press and free word, from Erasmus to Spinoza, Jovialis!
    This kind of propaganda is used by leftists here in the United States, for their own rhetoric. That is why you have feeble minded morons dressed in black, who think they are heroic Marxist revolutionaries, because they burned down a Starbucks. These people have accomplished absolutely nothing. That is why it is hilarious to me that Biden is the president. He is just paying lip-service to the emotional insecurities of the masses, while wealth and power gets ever more stratified.

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    ^^Looks like Biden is not the only one just paying-lip service:

    Black Lives Matter infighting grows after co-founder's real estate shopping spree

    Cullors, who describes herself as a Marxist, dished out more than $1.4 million last month for a 2,370-square-foot home in Los Angeles. The home features a detached apartment capable of "hosting guests long term with a private entry and a living room with kitchenette," according to real state website Dirt.com.

    https://abc3340.com/news/nation-worl...e-buying-spree

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I think that is a recipe for disaster if people start amalgamating ethnicity and religious beliefs. It's only one step away from blending ethnicity and political beliefs. Ethnicity is genes. You can't change it. Religion and politics depend on upbringing, culture, but also personal choice and can evolve a lot (sometimes to the extreme opposite) in one's life time.
    I agree that it is dangerous, and it doesn't make sense. But I think everyday people make that mistake, and some politicians pick up on it, and try to use it for their own gain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I find it particularly galling when such criticisms come from countries where the "segregation" is infinitely worse. What about France, or Belgium, or Germany or even England? How "mixed" are their communities? Or do all the "non-native ancestry" people wind up all living together.
    Growing up in Belgium, in secondary school (junior high and high school in North America) there were other kids with roots from various European countries whose parents were so well integrated that there was no way of knowing they were not Belgian. These were not just neighbouring countries but also Hungary, Poland, Portugal, Italy, Greece...

    I remember that there were two adopted people in my year (one from Korea, the other from India), and one immigrant from Rwanda and a guy who was half Iraqi. Never was there any form of discrimination against them. In fact we never talked about race and classified people into ethnic groups. There surely were ghettoes of Maghrebi immigrants already back then, but they were far away and I had never seen them. With the hindsight our view of interracial relations all seemed so jejune and ingenuous. We had heard of racism in history classes, like the Nazi towards the Jews, segregation between Blacks and Whites in South Africa and in the US... But that seemed all so distant and unlike the world we lived in.

    Then I grew up, travelled around the world, learned a lot of life in other countries, about politics, ethnic groups, religions, discrimination, human psychology, and so on. I realised that human relations were not always as straightforward when it came to physical appearance as what I had known until I was 18.

    It is true that there are problems with some immigrants in Belgium today. But 95% of the tensions, conflicts, discrimination and lack of integration come from a few ghettoes in parts of larger cities like Brussels and Antwerp. Elsewhere, even outside those ghettoes in Brussels and Antwerp, foreigners are generally well integrated and respected. Even in the wealthiest neighbourhoods schools have a diversity of ethnicities and I have never heard of racism between children, because there is no instituted segregation. Note that the Muslim ghettoes are self segregating and that people who wish to integrate can do it freely and easily. I know many Muslim Maghrebi who are well integrated, but it's undeniable that there are others who doggedly refuse to live in any other way than their ancestors did in their country.

    Even after all I read and learned about the US (I recently finished reading These Truths, by Jill Lepore, a 900-page history of the US) I had to look up the meaning of BIPOC (Black, Indigenous and people of color) when Angela mentioned it above, as I hadn't heard of it before. There is just no equivalent word here. To think that schools have "BIPOC groups" still today in America is a cultural gap so deep with modern Belgium as to be almost inconceivable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    If an Indonesian or North African family had the money to buy a house in your neighborhood would it be A OK with the neighbors? I don't know, because I'm not Dutch. I know my state and suburbs, and there would be absolutely no problem. The fact that Blacks have been here for three hundred years is is irrelevant, and South Asians are certainly new arrivals. Is racism OK in Europe because they're not used to different kinds of people. People living in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
    Most people here (there are always exceptions anywhere) would be confortable living next to people of different races/ethnicities. In fact it would be hard to find any neighbourhood in Brussels (where one third of the population is foreign) where Belgians do not live next to Africans, Asians, Latin Americans, and so on. There are Black and Maghrebi doctors in hospitals and private practices, even in wealthy neighbourhoods. I don't know of a single school that doesn't have Black and Maghrebi kids alongside European ones.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Absolute crap.
    That's no way to talk to someone here. Sorry if I have to step in, but being a mod does not give you all the rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    For one thing we don't have people going to burn down the hostels where Turkish immigrants are living.
    Never heard of that. If you dig well enough you'll find dirt on any country.

    Don't freaking talk to me about racism in Europe. German speaking Switzerland is the only country where I've ever been that I was treated terribly because I spoke in Italian, so I don't want to hear that nonsense from you.
    Perhaps it's time you put this experience of many decades ago behind you. Switzerland isn't like that any more.

    I also know I recently watched a German tv show where people were saying they would never allow their daughters to marry a Turk, so give me a break.
    And I personally know many mixed couples (Belgian-Turkish, Belgian-Maghrebi, etc.).

    Sometimes I wonder if you really understand English.
    [...]
    If you can't understand what you read don't expect to be taken seriously. Go to some site where they write in your own language.
    Please refrain from insulting other forum members.

    My comments about biracial children had NOTHING to do with how such children CHOOSE to identify. It had to do with the TEACHERS telling them they HAD to sit with the black children at lunch and IDENTIFY as black.
    That's what I was talking about. This would never happen in Belgium (and most of Western Europe) because there is no culture of labelling people by race. We hardly ever use terms like 'white' either. Another example is the term 'Hispanic' as a racial category, which has no real translation in French, Dutch or many other European languages.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    That's really offensive to alichu imo.

    He points to the fact that obviously you use in the US still use all kinds of racial definitions. It's certain that in Germany like as fare as I know the most of Europe don't use these kind of definitions.
    I agree with that.

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    I don't know how many times I have to repeat the same explanation over and over before it is understood:

    It is the minorities in the U.S. who want racial and "ethnic" categories on the census so that they can push for redistricting so that there will be voting districts with high numbers of minorities and thereby ensuring that there will be minorities in the legislatures like, for example, the House of Representatives.

    The same is true for applications for colleges and universities, jobs, business loans etc. They want that information on the form because then they can get admitted with lower grades, get hired to fill quotas, get better terms for business loans etc.

    It has absolutely nothing to do with what Ailchu is talking about.

    Why is that so difficult to comprehend?

    As for the U.S. not being able to forge a single identity, I stand by the fact that that's rich coming from countries where white people are separated from each other within one country.

    Most of the very frequent users of this site, and most of the moderators, including me, who provide a lot of the content here, are Americans, and we're sick of certain European members constantly posting anti-American content based on an abysmal lack of knowledge of how things work in America. Then, they don't like it when the tables are turned. People living in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, or they should at least have the decency not to complain when the tables are turned.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I don't know how many times I have to repeat the same explanation over and over before it is understood:

    It is the minorities in the U.S. who want racial and "ethnic" categories on the census so that they can push for redistricting so that there will be voting districts with high numbers of minorities and thereby ensuring that there will be minorities in the legislatures like, for example, the House of Representatives.

    The same is true for applications for colleges and universities, jobs, business loans etc. They want that information on the form because then they can get admitted with lower grades, get hired to fill quotas, get better terms for business loans etc.

    It has absolutely nothing to do with what Ailchu is talking about.

    Why is that so difficult to comprehend?

    As for the U.S. not being able to forge a single identity, I stand by the fact that that's rich coming from countries where white people are separated from each other within one country.

    Most of the very frequent users of this site, and most of the moderators, including me, who provide a lot of the content here, are Americans, and we're sick of certain European members constantly posting anti-American content based on an abysmal lack of knowledge of how things work in America. Then, they don't like it when the tables are turned. People living in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, or they should at least have the decency not to complain when the tables are turned.
    First of all I'm explicit not anti-American, or anti-US. Never been so. That's doesn't means that I'm apologetic.

    But first back to basics, I understand what you have stated: "the minorities in the U.S. who want racial and "ethnic" categories".

    The question is who ever started with this categories; those minorities? Or were they subjected to ethnic categories? Did the minorities undertook initiatives to introduce those categories? Did they "demand" a category? I doubt that.....

    I guess it's the opposite. It's a wry conclusion that they 'act according to' the racial categories laid up on. And now they demand things based on 'that stamp'. If the racial categories were never been there or long ago were thrown away this phenomenon didn't occur. Something like: he who sows wind will reap a storm.....

    Besides that it's very obvious that you have some views about Europe is due to some personal experiences. Everyone is shaped by their own circumstances. But you make them normative for the whole of Europe. I hope that Maciamo, Alichu and I have made clear that Europe anno 2021 isn't always as you seem to suppose (as you try to do so vice versa).

    And last but not least your language towards other members is sometimes quite blunt or offensive. Let's keep it civilized together....(even if we sometimes deeply disagree).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I don't know how many times I have to repeat the same explanation over and over before it is understood:

    It is the minorities in the U.S. who want racial and "ethnic" categories on the census so that they can push for redistricting so that there will be voting districts with high numbers of minorities and thereby ensuring that there will be minorities in the legislatures like, for example, the House of Representatives.

    The same is true for applications for colleges and universities, jobs, business loans etc. They want that information on the form because then they can get admitted with lower grades, get hired to fill quotas, get better terms for business loans etc.
    Why does it matter that it is minorities that want racial and "ethnic" categories? Aren't they Americans too? In fact, Native Americans, some Hispanics (descendants of the inhabitant of Spanish Texas, New Mexico, California, Florida) and most Black people have been on the territory of the USA for longer than the majority of non-Hispanic white people. Their opinions or values also represent American culture. If they are the ones who want clearly distinct racial categories, then it means that they managed to impose their desires and shape American cultural identity. But the fact remains that it is an American specificity to sort people in racial/ethnic categories, even for official state purposes. It's a hallmark of Americanism to be asked, when filling a form (for whatever purpose) if we are Caucasian/White, Hispanic, Black, Native American, etc. In fact in some other Western countries like France it is prohibited to ask such questions for the government, schools, work, hospitals, etc. I am not saying that I agree with it. I personally dislike a lot of things about the French system (ban on DNA tests, no statistics on ethnic groups, all the excessed of the Covid restrictions I described here, and so on).

    As for the U.S. not being able to forge a single identity, I stand by the fact that that's rich coming from countries where white people are separated from each other within one country.
    I don't know who you are addressing. It feels it is me as Belgium is one of the few countries where 'white' people are separated from each others (linguistically). If it is, I have never said that the U.S. is not being able to forge a single identity. On the contrary, for such an ethnically and religiously diverse country, there is a surprising level of national identity.

    Most of the very frequent users of this site, and most of the moderators, including me, who provide a lot of the content here, are Americans
    That's not true. There are only two American moderators: you and Jovialis. Bicicleur and I are Belgian. Pax Augusta is Italian. LeBrok is Polish-Canadian. Ygorcs is Brazilian.

    we're sick of certain European members constantly posting anti-American content based on an abysmal lack of knowledge of how things work in America.
    I have not seen anything anti-American in this thread. I don't even understand why you are getting so worked up. What we are saying is public knowledge and is not controversial (at least I thought).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaska View Post
    We Spaniards are not very proud of our behavior in the past, in our former colonies we had 16 racial castes starting with white European (born in Spain), Criollos (white descendant of Spaniards but born in America) and followed by mestizos, mulattos, cuarterones, pardos, blacks, Indians etc. .... These classifications are still present in Cuba and in the rest of the American countries, in fact, except for Peru, Bolivia and some other Central American countries, no other country has managed to have indigenous presidents after 200 years of independence, that is to say, the white Criollos continue to maintain power without caring about the consequences of poverty and social injustice.Then you are right, within the Hispanic community there is also a lot of racism. BUT

    Who is the one who qualifies another person as white, what criteria do they use?

    No Percentages of Amerindian, black or Jewish blood?

    Purity of blood as we did the Spaniards who had to prove that we had no Moorish or Jewish blood in 10 generations to enter the army, the church, be teachers, doctors or civil servants?

    Who can say that a Cuban is not white because he has Amerindian or black blood when surely many of those white people of North European descent will have the same percentages (especially those who arrived in the early years of the colony) If these gentlemen met Cameron Diaz on the street, would they say that he is not white despite his Nordic appearance because he has a small percentage of Cuban, Amerindian or black blood? Don't you think it's funny that someone is labeled as belonging to a certain ethnic group simply for speaking Spanish?

    I have never really understood why many northern Europeans and their American redneck friends are obsessed with these racial classifications and why they want to monopolize whiteness-Could someone explain it to me?

    We Basques have had throughout our history a racist behavior that has been a real disaster. Some ultra-nationalist morons continue to think that some people are superior to others because of their physical appearance, the color of their skin, their craniometry or their hemotypology. I have lost friends and family in terrorist attacks committed by Basque fanatics, simply because our political ideas were different. And they did everything in the name of the Basque people, our language, and our race. I hope we are already vaccinated against violence because we have been in peace for many years.

    But that does not mean that we agree with the immigration policies of the European Union, we do not like that foreigners have preference over Spaniards when it comes to receiving social aid or that they are paid houses, subsidies, schools and public health without paying taxes. The European Union is going to commit suicide if it continues to apply these policies.
    I think some woke people are more hung-up on percentages than right-wingers. Just take a look at what happened when Elizabeth Warren tried to claim being native American; I recall it was some tiny percent. She was mocked brutally, by the left, and the right.

    In fact, the mantra that I hear now from conservatives is that they consider themselves "color-blind", meaning that they only want to judge people by merit. However the new school of thought from the woke left is that race does matter, and to ignore it, is to ignore "white supremacy" and "white privilege".

    A woke educator, Barnor Hesse, recently made a chart of 8 white identities, here it is in his words:





    Being woke means if you are not actively trying to dismantle and abolish whiteness, you have an affinity to "White Supremacy". Treating everyone fairly, and ignoring race only makes you complicit in white supremacy according to people like Hesse.

    NYC public school asks parents to 'reflect' on their 'whiteness' (nypost.com)

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    Thanks, Jovialis. This chart of the 8 white identities is helpful in understanding the issues in American society today. There is no equivalent in Europe. There isn't really a 'white' vs 'coloured' issue in Europe. It is a conflict of values between Western society and the more intransigent and intolerant branches of Islam. Most Europeans know that not all Muslims are against Western values. They also know that Muslims cannot be recognised by the colour of their skin. In the UK for instance, about half of the South Asians are Muslims (mostly Pakistani and Bangladeshi), while the other half are Hindu, Sikh, Jain, Christian or unaffiliated. Black African immigrants are also split between Christians and Muslims (and folk religions, but they are rarer). Even in the Middle East there are quite a few Christians.

    So race is not the issue. First it is values. In second place I would say it is the socio-economic levels of recent immigrants. Let's be frank, no country wants to deal with lots of poor and uneducated immigrants. That's why there are criteria of selections for visas. But not so much for refugees, which why the Syrian crisis caused such turmoil.

    It is sometimes hard for Europeans to understand the situation in the US as there isn't a huge non-white population in Europe. As of 2021, only 60% of the US population is non-Hispanic white. Non-whites make up only 2% of Europe's population if we consider Arabs and Berbers as white. Non-whites are mostly Black Africans, and they are distributed very unevenly across the continent. There are almost none in the former Eastern Bloc, but 5.5 million in France (out of 12.5 million in all Europe). That's 8.5% of the French population and that's the closest it gets to the USA.

    But it is also hard for Americans to understand the conflict with radical Muslims as there is only 1% of Muslims in the US, and most of them are well educated South Asians living around New York or San Francisco with good jobs, not poor, uneducated and radicalised immigrants. Once again the percentages vary widely by country, with hardly any in the former Eastern Bloc except where Islam is the traditional religion. In Western and Northern Europe, most country have around 5-7% of Muslims. The highest percentages are in France (9%), Sweden (8%), Belgium (7.5%) and the Netherlands (7%).

    So, two completely different situations in the US and (mostly Western) Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Thanks, Jovialis. This chart of the 8 white identities is helpful in understanding the issues in American society today. There is no equivalent in Europe as there isn't really a 'white' vs 'coloured' issue in Europe. It is a conflict of values between Western society and the more intransigent and intolerant branches of Islam. Most Europeans know that not all Muslims are against Western values. They also know that Muslims cannot be recognised by the colour of their skin. In the UK for instance, about half of the South Asians are Muslims (mostly Pakistani and Bangladeshi), while the other half are Hindu, Sikh, Jain, Christian or unaffiliated. Black African immigrants are also split between Christians and Muslims (and folk religions, but they are rarer). Even in the Middle East there are quite a few Christians.

    So race is not the issue. First it is values. In second place I would say it is the socio-economic levels of recent immigrants. Let's be frank, no country wants to deal with lots of poor and uneducated immigrants. That's why there are criteria of selections for visas. But not so much for refugees, which why the Syrian crisis caused such turmoil.
    From my own anecdotal experience, I feel as though deep down inside, most people, white, black, Hispanic, etc. judge people by their merit, and the content of their character; not their race. The problem in the United States, imo, is that our education system, vapid celebrities, many of our elites, and corporations, promote woke culture. I recall from an article that Angela posted a while ago, that showed only a very small percent of people believe in "political correctness". However, these people are also very influential.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    From my own anecdotal experience, I feel as though most people, white, black, Hispanic, etc. just want to judge people by their merit, and not their race. The problem in the United States, imo, is that our education system, some of our elites, and corporations, promote woke culture. I recall from an article that Angela posted a while ago, that showed only a very small percent of people believe in "political correctness". However, these people are also very influential.
    I guess I don't really get it yet. Why 'if most people want to judge people by their merit' is there still such a 'racial classification' system? Seems not logic to me....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    I guess I don't really get it yet. Why 'if most people want to judge people by their merit' is there still such a 'racial classification' system? Seems not logic to me....
    I think it should be done away with personally. They are outmoded constructs that are not based on modern science.

    When I am asked to declare my ethnicity on forms, I always put that I prefer not to answer. I don't see any benefit for me to give them that information. In fact, it could possibly be used to discriminate against me.

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