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Thread: "WOKE" America

  1. #101
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    @Jovialis

    I sincerely believe that all Americans (north and south) are truly obsessed with the issue of races because it is a racially heterogeneous continent. I also believe that since the fall of the Berlin Wall and the definitive triumph of capitalism, the left has lost the reference to the class struggle and has to look for other ways of confronting the conservatives. In Europe, a large part of the old voters of the left do not vote for workers' parties but for xenophobic ultra-nationalist parties (National Front, Lega Nord, VOX). The leftists have to look for alternatives to seek votes to hide their failure and since they will not be able to overthrow the European democratic regimes, they have decided to fight them from the institutions developing a new ideology that is inspired by the North American left (which is incongruous, because European leftists have always hated the United States)-Now they are dedicated to supporting the feminist movement (sexism), illegal immigrants, indigenism (repudiating the history of most European countries), homosexuality, minority races (Moors, Arabs, South Americans, Chinese) regional nationalism (northern Italy, Scotland, Flanders, Corsica, Catalonia, Balkans, Macedonia) etc etc, that is, they have looked for new voters and have probably found them.

    It does not surprise me therefore that in the USA the left uses “Race does matter”, they are simply looking for votes in social minorities and in self-conscious whites and seek privileges in the education of their children, public health, jobs, salaries, etc. Meanwhile I suppose that the conservatives try to maintain their privileges (as it happens in Europe) and wave the flag of the Mexican, Asian or Arab invasion. I do not know if those racial classifications of the United States census are requested by those minorities to obtain privileges, if so, I think it is an unfair system for all those who do not belong to those minorities. I have already said that in the case of the Hispanic ethnicity it is simply the government's attempt to control a minority that can become a demographic threat.

    Here in Spain, people integrate very well, Latin Americans speak Spanish, many are Catholic and just want to work and progress. Many (especially Venezuelans, Peruvians, Mexicans and Cubans) hate the communist regimes that have expelled them from their countries, and many of them even vote for xenophobic parties. It does not matter if they are more or less white, and nobody asks them how they qualify racially, in fact, since they have their origin in former Spanish colonies (including the Philippines and some American states ) they have the privilege of obtaining Spanish nationality in two years.Muslims are poorly integrated and we have suffered horrible terrorist attacks, yet we are proud that there has not been a single xenophobic attack on Magrebies.

    Regarding the 8 white identities, I do not think it will ever be a problem for me, because since I am Basque Spaniard and speak Spanish and Euzkera, I suppose that I would have to qualify in the census as Hispanic and therefore I would not be white and would have the right to those minority privileges.

  2. #102
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I think some woke people are more hung-up on percentages than right-wingers. Just take a look at what happened when Elizabeth Warren tried to claim being native American; I recall it was some tiny percent. She was mocked brutally, by the left, and the right.

    In fact, the mantra that I hear now from conservatives is that they consider themselves "color-blind", meaning that they only want to judge people by merit. However the new school of thought from the woke left is that race does matter, and to ignore it, is to ignore "white supremacy" and "white privilege".

    A woke educator, Barnor Hesse, recently made a chart of 8 white identities, here it is in his words:





    Being woke means if you are not actively trying to dismantle and abolish whiteness, you have an affinity to "White Supremacy". Treating everyone fairly, and ignoring race only makes you complicit in white supremacy according to people like Hesse.

    NYC public school asks parents to 'reflect' on their 'whiteness' (nypost.com)
    Indeed Jovialis this is neo-racism. IMO follows a kind of downwards spiral between two extremes.....extreme right wing populist to the extreme woke types. That's the Yugo scenario I was talking about. Let's hope this spiral doesn't get out of control.

    Angela had the right quote from Martin Luther King: "Every man should be judged by the content of his character, not the color of his skin".
    Last edited by Northener; 21-04-21 at 16:09.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I don't think that's true any more. Over 25% of Switzerland's population is foreign - one of the highest percentage in Europe and it keeps rising steadily year after year. Add to that about half a million of naturalised citizens. Among those foreigners 16% (so 4% of the total population) are from outside Europe, with the Middle East and Africa on top.

    Among the Europeans, many are South Europeans, including 300,000 from ex-Yugoslavia (3.7% of the Swiss population) and 321,000 from Italy (4% of the population).
    if you add naturalized people and people with only partial recent foreign ancestry you will be in the 40-50% range. it's a bit ridiculous to bad mouth modern switzerland just because of personal past experiences. Angela said that switzerland has no national feeling that isn't based on ethnicity/language. i think it is rather the opposite, switzerland is a country which can't really have a national feeling that is based on "ethnicity". if it was just for ethnicity/language switzerland would not exist.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    if you add naturalized people and people with only partial recent foreign ancestry you will be in the 40-50% range. it's a bit ridiculous to bad mouth modern switzerland just because of personal past experiences. Angela said that switzerland has no national feeling that isn't based on ethnicity/language. i think it is rather the opposite, switzerland is a country which can't really have a national feeling that is based on "ethnicity". if it was just for ethnicity/language switzerland would not exist.
    I feel like the Swiss society seems most influenced by Reformation for some reason. Can not really put my finger on it rhetorically, its just an intuition/ a gut feeling.

    Work hard. Save money. Be discrete. Mind your own business.
    As a Balkan person I really liked my short stays there, mainly visiting family. Clean, prosperous, cultured. But Holy... They might wanna take a break from working that hard. I thought it was a stereotype of sorts, but these people aren't kidding.

    And also, from all the countries I have visited, never saw anywhere foreigners more integrated, and as soon as the very first generation. I guess working hard, making money and minding your business are values most people can subscribe to, regardless of the background. Thinking of it in terms of psychology, it makes sense, you get rewarded to fit in, and it creates a virtuous cycle.
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

    Franz Kafka

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    I feel like the Swiss society seems most influenced by Reformation for some reason. Can not really put my finger on it rhetorically, its just an intuition/ a gut feeling.

    Work hard. Save money. Be discrete. Mind your own business.
    As a Balkan person I really liked my short stays there, mainly visiting family. Clean, prosperous, cultured. But Holy... They might wanna take a break from working that hard. I thought it was a stereotype of sorts, but these people aren't kidding.

    And also, from all the countries I have visited, never saw anywhere foreigners more integrated, and as soon as the very first generation. I guess working hard, making money and minding your business are values most people can subscribe to, regardless of the background. Thinking of it in terms of psychology, it makes sense, you get rewarded to fit in, and it creates a virtuous cycle.
    Sounds almost like a description of the (old) Dutch culture

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaska View Post
    @Jovialis

    I sincerely believe that all Americans (north and south) are truly obsessed with the issue of races because it is a racially heterogeneous continent. I also believe that since the fall of the Berlin Wall and the definitive triumph of capitalism, the left has lost the reference to the class struggle and has to look for other ways of confronting the conservatives. In Europe, a large part of the old voters of the left do not vote for workers' parties but for xenophobic ultra-nationalist parties (National Front, Lega Nord, VOX). The leftists have to look for alternatives to seek votes to hide their failure and since they will not be able to overthrow the European democratic regimes, they have decided to fight them from the institutions developing a new ideology that is inspired by the North American left (which is incongruous, because European leftists have always hated the United States)-Now they are dedicated to supporting the feminist movement (sexism), illegal immigrants, indigenism (repudiating the history of most European countries), homosexuality, minority races (Moors, Arabs, South Americans, Chinese) regional nationalism (northern Italy, Scotland, Flanders, Corsica, Catalonia, Balkans, Macedonia) etc etc, that is, they have looked for new voters and have probably found them.

    It does not surprise me therefore that in the USA the left uses “Race does matter”, they are simply looking for votes in social minorities and in self-conscious whites and seek privileges in the education of their children, public health, jobs, salaries, etc. Meanwhile I suppose that the conservatives try to maintain their privileges (as it happens in Europe) and wave the flag of the Mexican, Asian or Arab invasion. I do not know if those racial classifications of the United States census are requested by those minorities to obtain privileges, if so, I think it is an unfair system for all those who do not belong to those minorities. I have already said that in the case of the Hispanic ethnicity it is simply the government's attempt to control a minority that can become a demographic threat.

    Here in Spain, people integrate very well, Latin Americans speak Spanish, many are Catholic and just want to work and progress. Many (especially Venezuelans, Peruvians, Mexicans and Cubans) hate the communist regimes that have expelled them from their countries, and many of them even vote for xenophobic parties. It does not matter if they are more or less white, and nobody asks them how they qualify racially, in fact, since they have their origin in former Spanish colonies (including the Philippines and some American states ) they have the privilege of obtaining Spanish nationality in two years.Muslims are poorly integrated and we have suffered horrible terrorist attacks, yet we are proud that there has not been a single xenophobic attack on Magrebies.

    Regarding the 8 white identities, I do not think it will ever be a problem for me, because since I am Basque Spaniard and speak Spanish and Euzkera, I suppose that I would have to qualify in the census as Hispanic and therefore I would not be white and would have the right to those minority privileges.
    I think only very dumb people would think that here. However, those are also the kind of people that are likely to be racist (Both white power and woke)

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I think only very dumb people would think that here. However, those are also the kind of people that are likely to be racist (Both white power and woke)

    There are ignorant people in every country, but in any case, I myself prefer to be considered Hispanic or Non white, because I feel much closer to a Mexican, an Argentinean or a Puerto Rican than to an Anglo-Saxon from New England because culturally they are much closer to us. I don't care if those ignorant people consider that Cubans, Mexicans or Argentines are not white because they have a small percentage of Amerindian blood. Nor do I care if they are conservatives or leftists. What strikes me is that they force people at schools to racially classify their children. This is supposedly done to better distribute aid to those who need it most (I would like to think that we are talking about an altruistic policy) but in reality it hides a terrible fear of losing the power they have enjoyed for 200 years.

    It reminds me of the policy of the Spanish Monarchy in the American colonies, where the Italians, Greeks, Portuguese, French, Flemish or Irish who emigrated were not considered white peninsulars (Spaniards), even if they were natives of Spanish territories such as Sicily, Naples, Franche-Comté, Flanders etc, but were separated into different groups where they had to state their nationality, race, physical characteristics (scars, height, hair and eye color), purity of blood, occupation. The consequence is that they were always considered second-class citizens (as if they were moors or jews) by the local authorities.

  8. #108
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    I was for a while "liberal" if anything mainly for economic reasons, but I can no longer tolerate this. Trump is out of office, so most crazy and over-the-top nonsense from the right no longer matters to me. I want public healthcare and higher corporate taxes, but at this point the Democrats are giving up on those things to fight a culture war that will either be crushed, or trigger a civil war, which they will inevitably lose anyway. I do not want woke garbage being taught in schools, and will cross party lines to vote against it.

    Many Europeans I talk to seem to regard 'Blue' America as more similar to Europe in values and culture, and therefore preferable. Such people make the same naïve mistake as classical liberals and rationalists whose only involvement politically is fear of 'Red' America's hostility towards knowledge and critical thinking. Yet there are so many warning that the expert class in Blue America is compromised by woke ideology, and too many liberals cover their ears and refuse to listen. The fact that people like Anderson Cooper tolerate, platform, and then repeat this crap on a daily basis should delegitimize them.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaska View Post
    There are ignorant people in every country, but in any case, I myself prefer to be considered Hispanic or Non white, because I feel much closer to a Mexican, an Argentinean or a Puerto Rican than to an Anglo-Saxon from New England because culturally they are much closer to us. I don't care if those ignorant people consider that Cubans, Mexicans or Argentines are not white because they have a small percentage of Amerindian blood. Nor do I care if they are conservatives or leftists. What strikes me is that they force people at schools to racially classify their children. This is supposedly done to better distribute aid to those who need it most (I would like to think that we are talking about an altruistic policy) but in reality it hides a terrible fear of losing the power they have enjoyed for 200 years.
    It reminds me of the policy of the Spanish Monarchy in the American colonies, where the Italians, Greeks, Portuguese, French, Flemish or Irish who emigrated were not considered white peninsulars (Spaniards), even if they were natives of Spanish territories such as Sicily, Naples, Franche-Comté, Flanders etc, but were separated into different groups where they had to state their nationality, race, physical characteristics (scars, height, hair and eye color), purity of blood, occupation. The consequence is that they were always considered second-class citizens (as if they were moors or jews) by the local authorities.
    I always found it nice to find commonality with people. Especially if they come from different backgrounds. I grew up in a majority Hispanic area. I think I had more Hispanic friends, than I did from other ethnic groups. For me, race and ethnicity absolutely does not matter in my inter-personal relationships. Which is why I resent the divisive woke rethoric. From my anecdotal experience, most Hispanics are definitely not woke. Moreover, this new-speech woke academics are promoting is totally manufactured, they now call them "Latinx" as to make it gender-neutral. Which is completely foolish and unnecessary.

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