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Thread: "WOKE" America

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    I guess I don't really get it yet. Why 'if most people want to judge people by their merit' is there still such a 'racial classification' system? Seems not logic to me....
    I think it should be done away with personally. They are outmoded constructs that are not based on modern science.

    When I am asked to declare my ethnicity on forms, I always put that I prefer not to answer. I don't see any benefit for me to give them that information. In fact, it could possibly be used to discriminate against me.

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    @Jovialis

    I sincerely believe that all Americans (north and south) are truly obsessed with the issue of races because it is a racially heterogeneous continent. I also believe that since the fall of the Berlin Wall and the definitive triumph of capitalism, the left has lost the reference to the class struggle and has to look for other ways of confronting the conservatives. In Europe, a large part of the old voters of the left do not vote for workers' parties but for xenophobic ultra-nationalist parties (National Front, Lega Nord, VOX). The leftists have to look for alternatives to seek votes to hide their failure and since they will not be able to overthrow the European democratic regimes, they have decided to fight them from the institutions developing a new ideology that is inspired by the North American left (which is incongruous, because European leftists have always hated the United States)-Now they are dedicated to supporting the feminist movement (sexism), illegal immigrants, indigenism (repudiating the history of most European countries), homosexuality, minority races (Moors, Arabs, South Americans, Chinese) regional nationalism (northern Italy, Scotland, Flanders, Corsica, Catalonia, Balkans, Macedonia) etc etc, that is, they have looked for new voters and have probably found them.

    It does not surprise me therefore that in the USA the left uses “Race does matter”, they are simply looking for votes in social minorities and in self-conscious whites and seek privileges in the education of their children, public health, jobs, salaries, etc. Meanwhile I suppose that the conservatives try to maintain their privileges (as it happens in Europe) and wave the flag of the Mexican, Asian or Arab invasion. I do not know if those racial classifications of the United States census are requested by those minorities to obtain privileges, if so, I think it is an unfair system for all those who do not belong to those minorities. I have already said that in the case of the Hispanic ethnicity it is simply the government's attempt to control a minority that can become a demographic threat.

    Here in Spain, people integrate very well, Latin Americans speak Spanish, many are Catholic and just want to work and progress. Many (especially Venezuelans, Peruvians, Mexicans and Cubans) hate the communist regimes that have expelled them from their countries, and many of them even vote for xenophobic parties. It does not matter if they are more or less white, and nobody asks them how they qualify racially, in fact, since they have their origin in former Spanish colonies (including the Philippines and some American states ) they have the privilege of obtaining Spanish nationality in two years.Muslims are poorly integrated and we have suffered horrible terrorist attacks, yet we are proud that there has not been a single xenophobic attack on Magrebies.

    Regarding the 8 white identities, I do not think it will ever be a problem for me, because since I am Basque Spaniard and speak Spanish and Euzkera, I suppose that I would have to qualify in the census as Hispanic and therefore I would not be white and would have the right to those minority privileges.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I think some woke people are more hung-up on percentages than right-wingers. Just take a look at what happened when Elizabeth Warren tried to claim being native American; I recall it was some tiny percent. She was mocked brutally, by the left, and the right.

    In fact, the mantra that I hear now from conservatives is that they consider themselves "color-blind", meaning that they only want to judge people by merit. However the new school of thought from the woke left is that race does matter, and to ignore it, is to ignore "white supremacy" and "white privilege".

    A woke educator, Barnor Hesse, recently made a chart of 8 white identities, here it is in his words:





    Being woke means if you are not actively trying to dismantle and abolish whiteness, you have an affinity to "White Supremacy". Treating everyone fairly, and ignoring race only makes you complicit in white supremacy according to people like Hesse.

    NYC public school asks parents to 'reflect' on their 'whiteness' (nypost.com)
    Indeed Jovialis this is neo-racism. IMO follows a kind of downwards spiral between two extremes.....extreme right wing populist to the extreme woke types. That's the Yugo scenario I was talking about. Let's hope this spiral doesn't get out of control.

    Angela had the right quote from Martin Luther King: "Every man should be judged by the content of his character, not the color of his skin".
    Last edited by Northener; 21-04-21 at 16:09.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I don't think that's true any more. Over 25% of Switzerland's population is foreign - one of the highest percentage in Europe and it keeps rising steadily year after year. Add to that about half a million of naturalised citizens. Among those foreigners 16% (so 4% of the total population) are from outside Europe, with the Middle East and Africa on top.

    Among the Europeans, many are South Europeans, including 300,000 from ex-Yugoslavia (3.7% of the Swiss population) and 321,000 from Italy (4% of the population).
    if you add naturalized people and people with only partial recent foreign ancestry you will be in the 40-50% range. it's a bit ridiculous to bad mouth modern switzerland just because of personal past experiences. Angela said that switzerland has no national feeling that isn't based on ethnicity/language. i think it is rather the opposite, switzerland is a country which can't really have a national feeling that is based on "ethnicity". if it was just for ethnicity/language switzerland would not exist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    if you add naturalized people and people with only partial recent foreign ancestry you will be in the 40-50% range. it's a bit ridiculous to bad mouth modern switzerland just because of personal past experiences. Angela said that switzerland has no national feeling that isn't based on ethnicity/language. i think it is rather the opposite, switzerland is a country which can't really have a national feeling that is based on "ethnicity". if it was just for ethnicity/language switzerland would not exist.
    I feel like the Swiss society seems most influenced by Reformation for some reason. Can not really put my finger on it rhetorically, its just an intuition/ a gut feeling.

    Work hard. Save money. Be discrete. Mind your own business.
    As a Balkan person I really liked my short stays there, mainly visiting family. Clean, prosperous, cultured. But Holy... They might wanna take a break from working that hard. I thought it was a stereotype of sorts, but these people aren't kidding.

    And also, from all the countries I have visited, never saw anywhere foreigners more integrated, and as soon as the very first generation. I guess working hard, making money and minding your business are values most people can subscribe to, regardless of the background. Thinking of it in terms of psychology, it makes sense, you get rewarded to fit in, and it creates a virtuous cycle.
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

    Franz Kafka

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    I feel like the Swiss society seems most influenced by Reformation for some reason. Can not really put my finger on it rhetorically, its just an intuition/ a gut feeling.

    Work hard. Save money. Be discrete. Mind your own business.
    As a Balkan person I really liked my short stays there, mainly visiting family. Clean, prosperous, cultured. But Holy... They might wanna take a break from working that hard. I thought it was a stereotype of sorts, but these people aren't kidding.

    And also, from all the countries I have visited, never saw anywhere foreigners more integrated, and as soon as the very first generation. I guess working hard, making money and minding your business are values most people can subscribe to, regardless of the background. Thinking of it in terms of psychology, it makes sense, you get rewarded to fit in, and it creates a virtuous cycle.
    Sounds almost like a description of the (old) Dutch culture

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaska View Post
    @Jovialis

    I sincerely believe that all Americans (north and south) are truly obsessed with the issue of races because it is a racially heterogeneous continent. I also believe that since the fall of the Berlin Wall and the definitive triumph of capitalism, the left has lost the reference to the class struggle and has to look for other ways of confronting the conservatives. In Europe, a large part of the old voters of the left do not vote for workers' parties but for xenophobic ultra-nationalist parties (National Front, Lega Nord, VOX). The leftists have to look for alternatives to seek votes to hide their failure and since they will not be able to overthrow the European democratic regimes, they have decided to fight them from the institutions developing a new ideology that is inspired by the North American left (which is incongruous, because European leftists have always hated the United States)-Now they are dedicated to supporting the feminist movement (sexism), illegal immigrants, indigenism (repudiating the history of most European countries), homosexuality, minority races (Moors, Arabs, South Americans, Chinese) regional nationalism (northern Italy, Scotland, Flanders, Corsica, Catalonia, Balkans, Macedonia) etc etc, that is, they have looked for new voters and have probably found them.

    It does not surprise me therefore that in the USA the left uses “Race does matter”, they are simply looking for votes in social minorities and in self-conscious whites and seek privileges in the education of their children, public health, jobs, salaries, etc. Meanwhile I suppose that the conservatives try to maintain their privileges (as it happens in Europe) and wave the flag of the Mexican, Asian or Arab invasion. I do not know if those racial classifications of the United States census are requested by those minorities to obtain privileges, if so, I think it is an unfair system for all those who do not belong to those minorities. I have already said that in the case of the Hispanic ethnicity it is simply the government's attempt to control a minority that can become a demographic threat.

    Here in Spain, people integrate very well, Latin Americans speak Spanish, many are Catholic and just want to work and progress. Many (especially Venezuelans, Peruvians, Mexicans and Cubans) hate the communist regimes that have expelled them from their countries, and many of them even vote for xenophobic parties. It does not matter if they are more or less white, and nobody asks them how they qualify racially, in fact, since they have their origin in former Spanish colonies (including the Philippines and some American states ) they have the privilege of obtaining Spanish nationality in two years.Muslims are poorly integrated and we have suffered horrible terrorist attacks, yet we are proud that there has not been a single xenophobic attack on Magrebies.

    Regarding the 8 white identities, I do not think it will ever be a problem for me, because since I am Basque Spaniard and speak Spanish and Euzkera, I suppose that I would have to qualify in the census as Hispanic and therefore I would not be white and would have the right to those minority privileges.
    I think only very dumb people would think that here. However, those are also the kind of people that are likely to be racist (Both white power and woke)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I think only very dumb people would think that here. However, those are also the kind of people that are likely to be racist (Both white power and woke)

    There are ignorant people in every country, but in any case, I myself prefer to be considered Hispanic or Non white, because I feel much closer to a Mexican, an Argentinean or a Puerto Rican than to an Anglo-Saxon from New England because culturally they are much closer to us. I don't care if those ignorant people consider that Cubans, Mexicans or Argentines are not white because they have a small percentage of Amerindian blood. Nor do I care if they are conservatives or leftists. What strikes me is that they force people at schools to racially classify their children. This is supposedly done to better distribute aid to those who need it most (I would like to think that we are talking about an altruistic policy) but in reality it hides a terrible fear of losing the power they have enjoyed for 200 years.

    It reminds me of the policy of the Spanish Monarchy in the American colonies, where the Italians, Greeks, Portuguese, French, Flemish or Irish who emigrated were not considered white peninsulars (Spaniards), even if they were natives of Spanish territories such as Sicily, Naples, Franche-Comté, Flanders etc, but were separated into different groups where they had to state their nationality, race, physical characteristics (scars, height, hair and eye color), purity of blood, occupation. The consequence is that they were always considered second-class citizens (as if they were moors or jews) by the local authorities.

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    I was for a while "liberal" if anything mainly for economic reasons, but I can no longer tolerate this. Trump is out of office, so most crazy and over-the-top nonsense from the right no longer matters to me. I want public healthcare and higher corporate taxes, but at this point the Democrats are giving up on those things to fight a culture war that will either be crushed, or trigger a civil war, which they will inevitably lose anyway. I do not want woke garbage being taught in schools, and will cross party lines to vote against it.

    Many Europeans I talk to seem to regard 'Blue' America as more similar to Europe in values and culture, and therefore preferable. Such people make the same naïve mistake as classical liberals and rationalists whose only involvement politically is fear of 'Red' America's hostility towards knowledge and critical thinking. Yet there are so many warning that the expert class in Blue America is compromised by woke ideology, and too many liberals cover their ears and refuse to listen. The fact that people like Anderson Cooper tolerate, platform, and then repeat this crap on a daily basis should delegitimize them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaska View Post
    There are ignorant people in every country, but in any case, I myself prefer to be considered Hispanic or Non white, because I feel much closer to a Mexican, an Argentinean or a Puerto Rican than to an Anglo-Saxon from New England because culturally they are much closer to us. I don't care if those ignorant people consider that Cubans, Mexicans or Argentines are not white because they have a small percentage of Amerindian blood. Nor do I care if they are conservatives or leftists. What strikes me is that they force people at schools to racially classify their children. This is supposedly done to better distribute aid to those who need it most (I would like to think that we are talking about an altruistic policy) but in reality it hides a terrible fear of losing the power they have enjoyed for 200 years.
    It reminds me of the policy of the Spanish Monarchy in the American colonies, where the Italians, Greeks, Portuguese, French, Flemish or Irish who emigrated were not considered white peninsulars (Spaniards), even if they were natives of Spanish territories such as Sicily, Naples, Franche-Comté, Flanders etc, but were separated into different groups where they had to state their nationality, race, physical characteristics (scars, height, hair and eye color), purity of blood, occupation. The consequence is that they were always considered second-class citizens (as if they were moors or jews) by the local authorities.
    I always found it nice to find commonality with people. Especially if they come from different backgrounds. I grew up in a majority Hispanic area. I think I had more Hispanic friends, than I did from other ethnic groups. For me, race and ethnicity absolutely does not matter in my inter-personal relationships. Which is why I resent the divisive woke rethoric. From my anecdotal experience, most Hispanics are definitely not woke. Moreover, this new-speech woke academics are promoting is totally manufactured, they now call them "Latinx" as to make it gender-neutral. Which is completely foolish and unnecessary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I always found it nice to find commonality with people. Especially if they come from different backgrounds. I grew up in a majority Hispanic area. I think I had more Hispanic friends, than I did from other ethnic groups. For me, race and ethnicity absolutely does not matter in my inter-personal relationships. Which is why I resent the divisive woke rethoric. From my anecdotal experience, most Hispanics are definitely not woke. Moreover, this new-speech woke academics are promoting is totally manufactured, they now call them "Latinx" as to make it gender-neutral. Which is completely foolish and unnecessary.
    Yes, and most "Hispanic" people don't agree with the Lxtxnx bxllshxt.

    Looking back on this thread, some people on here to understand the problem of how deeply-rooted wokeness is in the US in certain sectors, probably due to just low-quality education, and how detrimental that is to harmony in this country.

    If you're black (for instance), that's cool, but I don't really give a damn. Stop bringing it up constantly. It is insufferable. But on Twitter we have "Unapologetically Black 🥰" slay queens who can't shut up about it for more than 2 seconds. The irony is that white conservatives (except the alt-right, which is roundly hated) are the ones trying to make it irrelevant. White liberals are more likely to behave condescendingly toward minorities than the oh-so-racist conservatives. Because the definition of racism has now shifted, conservatives are not called racist anymore for open hostility towards minorities, but simply for not caring about race. Most of the Europeans on here who (rightfully) criticize American obsession with race would be labelled racist by the same. Woke columnist Solomon Jones interprets white conservatives being less condescending as doing less to hide their racism.

    There's more to it than meets the eye, and it's not, as the media portrays it to the rest of the world, a group of crusty bigots resistant to change trying to preserve systems of discrimination against minorities vs. enlightened, open-minded, and tolerant activists fighting for everyone's rights. I would encourage Europeans reading this to keep that in mind.

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    This is a comedy, but I wonder if some woke academics think this is literally what reality is like!

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    Not very nice to pollute the forum with your deranged alt-right garbage, while insulting people in the process.

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    Biden needs to lose in the next election, this has gone far beyond the pale.

    The FBI is being used to probe parents that are taking a stand against Critical Race Theory (CRT) (i.e. Woke education)

    https://nypost.com/2021/10/05/parent...nt-in-schools/

    The FBI normally goes after organized crime, terrorists, serial killers, etc.

    You are really going to put PARENTS who are concerned about what their children are learning in school on that list?

    Given the whistleblower from Facebook saying that conflict and anger keep people engaged. It makes me wonder if the government knows that CRT has this effect as well to galvanize left-wing constituencies. However, while you can just log off of Facebook, the Left want to make CRT, anger and hate, omnipresent, and part of school curriculum.

    Facebook knew the formula, as do other social media platforms, they are decidedly a Democrat/Left-wing, and work to promote the values and polices of that ideology.

    This is simply appalling, and deeply disturbing.

    We need to break up the woke-corporate power elite, and take money out of politics. But I am afraid that ship has sailed for this country.
    Last edited by Jovialis; 06-10-21 at 15:21.

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    Happy Columbus Day :) 🇮🇹

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    Colombus wasn't italian
    He never wrote in ligurian.
    He wrote 90 percent of the time in spanish.
    But he knew portuguese latin greek and hebrew.

    Colombus left spain right before the expulsion of the jews.
    He was part jewish

    He never named one island or place in the carribean after a place in italy
    But he did name them after places in spain and portugal
    Including la hispanola, santa lucia, cuba, curacao ect.

    He married a portuguese noble woman.
    None of his children were born in italy.

    So how could she marry a poor foreigner?
    He was refered with the title of don in writing with spain before setting out to the new world




    Also colombus did commit a genocide
    He was striped of his title as a result of it by queen Isabella. But she died not too soon afterwords.
    But you if you praised hitler
    But colombus


    He literally had nothing to do with america
    He has statues everywhere but bartolome de las Casas doesn't. Why is that?

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ind...487.html%3famp

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    @Wanderer ...imho you’re repeating bias, resentment, jealousy, cultural appropriation, and racist anti-Italian propaganda.

    It is not unique to Columbus, they’ve been doing it for years with the Romans, the Etruscans, the Latins, … they also do it to the Greeks, the Egyptians, and historical figures as Alexander, even to Hannibal and many more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    Colombus wasn't italian
    He never wrote in ligurian.
    He wrote 90 percent of the time in spanish.
    But he knew portuguese latin greek and hebrew.

    Colombus left spain right before the expulsion of the jews.
    He was part jewish

    He never named one island or place in the carribean after a place in italy
    But he did name them after places in spain and portugal
    Including la hispanola, santa lucia, cuba, curacao ect.

    He married a portuguese noble woman.
    None of his children were born in italy.

    So how could she marry a poor foreigner?
    He was refered with the title of don in writing with spain before setting out to the new world




    Also colombus did commit a genocide
    He was striped of his title as a result of it by queen Isabella. But she died not too soon afterwords.
    But you if you praised hitler
    But colombus


    He literally had nothing to do with america
    He has statues everywhere but bartolome de las Casas doesn't. Why is that?

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ind...487.html%3famp
    Bro, Columbus Day is celebrated in Latin America. If it werent for Columbus, Spain wouldnt have dominated Central or South America in the first place.
    If you want to gripe about Columbus, it would be more culturally appropriate to bring the issue up to the Mexican and Caribbean Community. ;)

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    I enjoyed watching the Columbus Day Parade on TV with my family. It was the biggest event in size since the start of the pandemic, they said on the news.

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    ^^I guess Italians still have some power in NYC, while cities like Boston are changing to indigenous peoples day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    @Wanderer ...imho you’re repeating bias, resentment, jealousy, cultural appropriation, and racist anti-Italian propaganda.

    It is not unique to Columbus, they’ve been doing it for years with the Romans, the Etruscans, the Latins, … they also do it to the Greeks, the Egyptians, and historical figures as Alexander, even to Hannibal and many more.
    Amen to that. Haters gonna hate.

    It's a tragedy what happened to Amerindians, but the biggest problem was that they had no immunity to European diseases, something about which nothing could be done. Sooner or later they would come in contact with people from the other hemispheres.

    As for the rest, it was the way of the world. The Aztecs built their own empire, and prisoners were sacrificed to their gods. Indian tribe fought Indian tribe. The New World was no Garden of Eden, and there are no "Noble Savages". That was romantic poppycock. There are just people, who have always acted just like people.

    Look at what happened to Italy when Rome fell. Should we tell the Germans and Austrians to tear down all their statues of the "Holy Roman Emperors"? Maybe the Spanish should tear down all their statues to Charles V after how his troops despoiled Italy, his German troops even stabling their horses in St. Peter's. Or perhaps we should never put on another performance of Henry V because he tried to conquer France.

    The fact remains that without his voyages there would be no U.S., no Spanish and Portuguese speaking countries in the Western Hemisphere. Without the Columbian Exchange, our lives would be completely different.

    As for his not being Italian, it's nonsense. I'm 100% Italian, born and spent my childhood in Italy, but you'd be hard pressed to find any of my writings in Italian. Italians have often served foreign masters, because there was no unified Italy. Columbus worked for the Spanish, his crews were drawn from Spain, for certain people whose language he didn't know, he used Latin. So what? Was he going to write in a dialect obscure and unfathomable even to other Italians. People forget there actually was no "Italian" language in those days, only dialects useless if you went 50 miles in the case of Liguria.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    Cancel culture dominates, it dictates resentment, envy (yes, hatred and stupidity);The white man conquered, colonized, enslaved - his achievements are to be desecrated. Civilization and Enlightenment are visibly despised: punished ... the rabble Marxism - element suppresses spirit, beauty, poetry, the individual, and intelligence.

    The woke mob and elitists are now resorting to using another trick next to the race card. They just deny the existence of cancel culture, political correctness and the killing of free speech. Hence, you read all over the internet articles which emphatically assert, that PC and Cancel culture only exist in the minds of paranoid right-wingers and conspiracy theorists and ain't real.

  23. #123
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
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    I saw like 5 minutes of Dave Chappelle's new special when I passed by my brother's house. It looked really funny. I've always liked his comedy. However it seems that the media wants to scourge and crucify him for comments he made about transgenders and particularly cancel culture. CNN even compared him to Trump, which is like "literally Hitler", to these pinko-goobs.

  24. #124
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    Cancel culture dominates, it dictates resentment, envy (yes, hatred and stupidity);The white man conquered, colonized, enslaved - his achievements are to be desecrated. Civilization and Enlightenment are visibly despised: punished ... the rabble Marxism - element suppresses spirit, beauty, poetry, the individual, and intelligence.
    The woke mob and elitists are now resorting to using another trick next to the race card. They just deny the existence of cancel culture, political correctness and the killing of free speech. Hence, you read all over the internet articles which emphatically assert, that PC and Cancel culture only exist in the minds of paranoid right-wingers and conspiracy theorists and ain't real.
    They use an inversion of reality to gaslight the opposition. Woke propaganda keeps people asleep. They had to Crack down on the internet, and put the FBI against people with opposing views. I look forward to the end of this reign of terror; nothing lasts forever. One day, Wokeness will destroy itself like communism did before it, in the USSR. When you have a society based on an ideal rather than merit and pragmatism, it will eventually fail. One day, we will have our Chernobyl, which will lead to a collapse. The government will grow large and more impotent, more incompetent and corrupt. Corporations will fail, because instead of choosing the best, they will be forced to hire people based on their identity, which should be irrelevant. One day, the USA will most likely fragment into smaller states, I'd bet.

    Everyone can blame the woke-left for the inevitable Balkanization of the USA. People who make a living from pulling at the strings of fabric that hold the country together. These people are basically assets of our rivals.

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    Advisor Angela's Avatar
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    I'm interested to see what happens in the Virginia governor's race. My hunch is that the Democrats may lose in the suburbs again. It was suburbanite women, in particular, who gave the election to Biden.

    Covid had one positive effect. Mothers saw what the schools were teaching their children in a detailed, comprehensive way, and what they are teaching them is Critical Race Theory. Worse yet, they see programs for the gifted and talented being eliminated in the name of equality. If some students aren't capable of doing above average work, then we'll just eliminate the programs and schools for the ones who can and that way the disparity won't be obvious. One pillar of the American Dream is that through intellectual excellence, through a meritocracy, you can rise and your children along with you. If parents really understand what is happening it just may motivate them to turn against the Democrats.

    It should be obvious how disastrous a policy like this would be for the society as a whole; our entire way of life is at stake.

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