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Thread: "WOKE" America

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I'm interested to see what happens in the Virginia governor's race. My hunch is that the Democrats may lose in the suburbs again. It was suburbanite women, in particular, who gave the election to Biden.

    Covid had one positive effect. Mothers saw what the schools were teaching their children in a detailed, comprehensive way, and what they are teaching them is Critical Race Theory. Worse yet, they see programs for the gifted and talented being eliminated in the name of equality. If some students aren't capable of doing above average work, then we'll just eliminate the programs and schools for the ones who can and that way the disparity won't be obvious. One pillar of the American Dream is that through intellectual excellence, through a meritocracy, you can rise and your children along with you. If parents really understand what is happening it just may motivate them to turn against the Democrats.

    It should be obvious how disastrous a policy like this would be for the society as a whole; our entire way of life is at stake.
    DeBlasio has been very destructive in his final days. He eliminated the gifted and talented program because there weren't enough People of Color (specifically Blacks and Hispanics), and too many Whites and Asians in the class. The children had to pass a test at 4 years old, which should be enough to prove to these fools that their talent and ability is inherit.

    Now this numb-nuts mayor wants to get rid of Thomas Jefferson's statue, because he was a slave holder. Why doesn't DeBlasio also give back all of the money with the founding fathers printed on it, since they were slave holders too.

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    What kind of a future does this country have, when we are not honing the talent of our brightest youth? This country could fall in a generation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post


    As for the rest, it was the way of the world. The Aztecs built their own empire, and prisoners were sacrificed to their gods. Indian tribe fought Indian tribe. The New World was no Garden of Eden, and there are no "Noble Savages". That was romantic poppycock. There are just people, who have always acted just like people.
    and in return, there are also no noble civilized people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Look at what happened to Italy when Rome fell. Should we tell the Germans and Austrians to tear down all their statues of the "Holy Roman Emperors"? Maybe the Spanish should tear down all their statues to Charles V after how his troops despoiled Italy, his German troops even stabling their horses in St. Peter's. Or perhaps we should never put on another performance of Henry V because he tried to conquer France.
    i'm not going to comment on whether people in america should have Columbus day or not, but that comparision is not exactly accurate. if those statues of germanic conquerors would be standing in italian cities because of large germanic populations still living there and admiring/celebrating those conquerors then it would be more comparable.

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    Ailchu;633067]and in return, there are also no noble civilized people.
    As always, you completely miss my point, deliberately perhaps. I didn't say the Europeans were noble; that they weren't was a given. I also specifically added that "There are just people, who have always acted just like people.

    Try to get over your bias against me and give me my due when warranted, as I do with you.


    i'm not going to comment on whether people in america should have Columbus day or not, but that comparision is not exactly accurate. if those statues of germanic conquerors would be standing in italian cities because of large germanic populations still living there and admiring/celebrating those conquerors then it would be more comparable.
    The only difference is that as an Italian citizen I have no power to compel the Germans to tear those statues down, even though we're all supposed to be Europeans living in one union, yes? Hell, as an Italian citizen I didn't even get the chance to force Germany to surrender the monsters in both the Wehrmacht and the SS to our justice system for their atrocities in Italy. Instead, they died of old age in their beds. I think that's a lot more important than some freaking statues.

    Plus, Italians have a tendency to give even their conquerors their due, a trait I don't find altogether admirable; lots of statues of Frederick II around. They're quite fond of him in Foggia where he lived for much of his life and which he loved. Not so much in the cities of the north which grew out of the communes.

    My point is that history is history. I object to anyone trying to obliterate signs of the past because they dislike it. It's like the Taliban toppling statues of the Buddha. I'll grant you I can see why people wouldn't want a statue of Jefferson Davis around, just as I wouldn't want one of Mussolini in Italy, although I don't mean to draw a comparison between the two as the scale is completely different. However, there's a point where you have to draw the line. Should all statues of the Kings of Savoy and their spouses be torn down because the last one was a weakling and a coward? Should the statues of all the kings and queens of the past be torn down because now we're a democracy?

    To pretend that all the founding fathers had slaves or were even in favor of slavery is a lie, but it's a lie taught as part of this curriculum. The idiots writing that curriculum are either deliberately lying or they slept through their American history courses because they were stoned.
    Last edited by Angela; 15-10-21 at 22:22.


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    Edited for non respect of moderation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    As always, you completely miss my point, deliberately perhaps. I didn't say the Europeans were noble; that was a given. I also specifically added that "There are just people, who have always acted just like people.

    Try to get over your bias against me and give me my due when warranted, as I do with you.




    The only difference is that as an Italian citizen I have no power to compel the Germans to tear those statues down, even though we're all supposed to be Europeans living in one union, yes? Hell, as an Italian citizen I didn't even get the chance to force Germany to surrender the monsters in both the Wehrmacht and the SS to our justice system for their atrocities in Italy. I think that's a lot more important than some freaking statues.

    Plus, Italians have a tendency to give even their conquerors their due, a trait I don't find altogether admirable; lots of statues of Frederick II around. They're quite fond of him in Foggia where he lived for much of his life and which he loved. Not so much in the cities of the north which grew out of the communes.

    My point is that history is history. I object to anyone trying to obliterate signs of the past because they dislike it. It's like the Taliban toppling statues of the Buddha. I'll grant you I can see why people wouldn't want a statue of Jefferson Davis around, just as I wouldn't want one of Mussolini in Italy, although I don't mean to draw a comparison between the two as the scale is completely different. However, there's a point where you have to draw the line. Should all statues of the Kings of Savoy and their spouses be torn down because the last one was a weakling and a coward? Should the statues of all the kings and queens of the past be torn down because now we're a democracy?

    To pretend that all the founding fathers had slaves or were even in favor of slavery is a lie, but it's a lie taught as part of this curriculum. The idiots writing that curriculum are either deliberately lying or they slept through their American history courses because they were stoned.
    Not all the founding fathers were racists but a hell of a lot of them were. Even George Washington was but he freed his because he thought that slavery was not economically sustainable, not for any moral reasons. Slavery was debated hotly during the Constitutional Convention. Without the following articles and clauses protecting slavery there would have been no Constitution and no United States.

    Article I, Section. 2 [Slaves count as 3/5 persons]
    Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons [i.e., slaves].
    Article I, Section. 9, clause 1. [No power to ban slavery until 1808]
    The Migration or Importation of such Persons as any of the States now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Congress prior to the Year one thousand eight hundred and eight, but a Tax or duty may be imposed on such Importation, not exceeding ten dollars for each Person.
    Article IV, Section. 2. [Free states cannot protect slaves]
    No Person held to Service or Labour in one State, under the Laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in Consequence of any Law or Regulation therein, be discharged from such Service or Labour, but shall be delivered up on Claim of the Party to whom such Service or Labour may be due.
    Article V [No Constitutional Amendment to Ban Slavery Until 1808]
    ...No Amendment which may be made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first and fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article.



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    Edited for non-response to moderation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Not all the founding fathers were racists but a hell of a lot of them were. Even George Washington was but he freed his because he thought that slavery was not economically sustainable, not for any moral reasons. Slavery was debated hotly during the Constitutional Convention. Without the following articles and clauses protecting slavery there would have been no Constitution and no United States.

    Article I, Section. 2 [Slaves count as 3/5 persons]
    Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons [i.e., slaves].
    Article I, Section. 9, clause 1. [No power to ban slavery until 1808]
    The Migration or Importation of such Persons as any of the States now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Congress prior to the Year one thousand eight hundred and eight, but a Tax or duty may be imposed on such Importation, not exceeding ten dollars for each Person.
    Article IV, Section. 2. [Free states cannot protect slaves]
    No Person held to Service or Labour in one State, under the Laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in Consequence of any Law or Regulation therein, be discharged from such Service or Labour, but shall be delivered up on Claim of the Party to whom such Service or Labour may be due.
    Article V [No Constitutional Amendment to Ban Slavery Until 1808]
    ...No Amendment which may be made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first and fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article.


    Well, there's a precise statement for you: a hell of a lot of them were...

    Thank you Mr. Obvious. Anyone who has taken American History knows that some of the signers of the Constitution were in favor of slavery and that's why those clauses are in the Constitution.

    A debate takes two opposing sides, or doesn't it?

    How do the opinions of one side of the debate invalidate the efforts of those who wanted it banned, at a time when in many places in the Americas it was still being practiced? Hell, how much better was the serfdom practiced until the early part of the 20th century in Eastern Europe.

    Indeed, how does that invalidate what I said, which is that our children are being taught that all the Founding Fathers were slave owners and/or were in favor of slavery? That ok with you? You don't think that's a lie?

    Get a grip and give some thought to the times in which they lived, and stop judging the people of the past by the standards of today. Give them the credit for being eons ahead of where other political ideologies wound up, which was using the guillotine to bring about democracy.

    As for Washington, you besmirch him by using a simplistic reduction of what was a complicated man and situation. If one reads his private papers as well as the public ones, one can see that his attitude toward slavery changed over the course of his lifetime. He started out a typical southerner of his time, born into slavery, just as much as his slaves were born into it. Over time that changed. " Moral doubt about the institution first appeared in 1778 when Washington expressed reluctance to sell some of his enslaved workers at a public venue or split their families. At war’s end, Washington demanded without success that the British respect the preliminary peace treaty which he said required return of escaped slaves without exception. His public statement on resigning his commission, addressing challenges facing the new confederation, made no explicit mention of slavery. Politically, Washington felt that the divisive issue of American slavery threatened national cohesion, and he never spoke publicly about it. Privately, Washington considered plans in the mid 1790s to free his enslaved population. Those plans failed because of his inability to raise the finances necessary, the refusal of his family to approve emancipation of the dower slaves, and his own aversion to separating enslaved families. His will was widely published upon his death in 1799, and provided for the emancipation of the enslaved population he owned, one of the few slave-owning founders to set them free. Because many of his slaves were married to the dower slaves, whom he could not legally free, the will stipulated that, except for his valet William Lee who was freed immediately, his enslaved workers be emancipated on the death of his wife Martha. She freed them in 1801, a year before her own death, but she had no option to free the dower slaves, who were inherited by her grandchildren."

    You might try reading his actual will. I found it quite moving.

    We also fought the deadliest war in our history because of slavery, brother against brother, on our own soil. Is that still not enough for you? Or do you want to debate me about whether Lincoln just wanted to save the Union rather than free the slaves? Given the simplicity of your analysis of Washington, I don't doubt it. You'll lose. I've read dozens of books on Lincoln and I assure you I know him and his motivations for every statement he made far better than you do.

    Maybe you should go and tell the cities in England which grew fat and rich on the cotton from southern cotton fields to fuel their cloth mills to pay reparations too, or maybe a better idea would be to concentrate on the Arab and African countries where slavery is actually still practiced.

    Americans in name only like you make me tired. I have no time to waste in debating people who because of their own indoctrination will oversee the downfall of this country.

    WOKEDOM will be the death of this country, and that will be because people like you just don't get it.

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    You wont let me speak. You gave me infraction when I havnt responded. IE my first statement. And you edit my posts and censor me...
    Last edited by Wanderer; 15-10-21 at 22:08. Reason: Non respect of moderation

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    The downfall of this country will not come because of wokeness. It will come because of the far right crazies that are ready to have another civil war. Just to be clear I am against reparations and I am also any more preferential treatment for blacks, hispanics and women. I am for preferential treatment of poor people no matter their gender or race. I am also against open borders and for much stricter control of immigration and against chain migration. BTW I do not blindly follow the Dems or the Pubs and I criticize them both rather liberally. I have had a lot of Pub friends until they went overboard for Trump.

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    Edited for refusal to accept moderation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    The downfall of this country will not come because of woeness. It will come because of the far right crazies. Just to be clear I am against reparations and I am also any more preferential treatment for blacks, hispanics and women. BTW I do not blindly follow the Dems and the Pubs and I criticize them both rather liberally. I have had a lot of Pub friends until they went overboard for Trump.
    The very fact you use Pubs instead of Republicans shows your true colors.

    That's my last response to you. You're back on ignore.

    Why do I keep on giving people second and third choices, thinking I might have a reasonable debate with someone, from which we both might actually learn something?

    It's all just tribalism nowadays.

    Btw, never voted for Trump ONCE. Sat out both presidential elections. Just couldn't vote for any of them.

    Hope the Always Trump people were happy about how he lost the good fight because of his own stupidity, and hope the other tribe is going to be real happy with the mess Biden, their guy, is going to make of this country, or maybe I should say whoever is really calling the shots, because Biden should be home in bed or in a nursing home. I saw some video footage of him walking to a podium this morning and I honest to Christ felt so sorry for him; he can't even walk properly, much less chew gum at the same time, or construct a coherent sentence even if sitting down. Are people blind and deaf that they don't see that he's not right?

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    Edited by moderator.

    I tell someone I'm removing his post for refusal to submit to moderation, and you quote it?

    Are you in your right senses?
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    Edited for refusal to submit to moderation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    and in return, there are also no noble civilized people.



    i'm not going to comment on whether people in america should have Columbus day or not, but that comparision is not exactly accurate. if those statues of germanic conquerors would be standing in italian cities because of large germanic populations still living there and admiring/celebrating those conquerors then it would be more comparable.
    To be honest, I’m not a big fan of Columbus. The truth, however, is that history cannot be simplified into such blackness and whiteness. We can't negate his contributions to the world, such as knowledge of the Western Hemisphere and expansive knowledge of new cultures, farming techniques and technologies. With that being said, we shouldn't glorify flawed individuals like Columbus nor seek into minimizing the suffering he brought upon the indigenous people and Africans either. The thing is, that the history about Columbus has undergone many revisions and been interpreted by historians in a variety of ways. So, I kinda understand why he is vilified by Indigenous rights groups today. On the other hand, I also understand why the Italian Americans are protective of the Columbus Day. Hence, I do believe that there should be a separated holiday for indigenous people. Columbus Day was recognized in 1892 by President Harrison as a national holiday to mark the 400th anniversary of the discovery by Columbus. This holiday was recognized in part to address the fierce prejudice, widespread discrimination and the lynching’s Italian Americans faced in the America of the time. Thus, Columbus Day is an integral part of the American and Italian American heritage. It was created to affirm the US as a “nation of immigrants.” So, Columbus Day allows Italian Americans to collectively celebrate their coming to America. Therefore, it's not good to take away one group’s day of celebration and replace it with another group’s day of protest. The movement to replace Columbus Day puts Italo-Americans and Amerindians on a collision course. What I find highly problematic and unacceptable are the destruction or removal of monuments, statues and erasure of history by leftists. Woke leftists are trying to rewrite American history by forcing a name change for the Columbus Day. They try to erase Columbus from History.

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    You are not alone ... similar things are happening in Latin America. Because of the October 12 holiday, in almost all the countries of the continent all kinds of diatribes are said and written against Christopher Columbus and the Spaniards. They speak of genocide, and how idyllic the life of the natives was before the arrival of the colonizers. We all know that real brutalities happened during colonization ... but centuries passed, and the realities changed. Today there are countries with a common cultural heritage and language, and there was a miscegenation that is present throughout the continent. What should we who are the product of that mixture do ... commit suicide? The descendants of pure Europeans ... should they be deported to Europe? What to do with the descendants of Africans?
    Isn't it time to leave history to be studied in books ... and look to the future?

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    Quote Originally Posted by italouruguayan View Post
    You are not alone ... similar things are happening in Latin America. Because of the October 12 holiday, in almost all the countries of the continent all kinds of diatribes are said and written against Christopher Columbus and the Spaniards. They speak of genocide, and how idyllic the life of the natives was before the arrival of the colonizers. We all know that real brutalities happened during colonization ... but centuries passed, and the realities changed. Today there are countries with a common cultural heritage and language, and there was a miscegenation that is present throughout the continent. What should we who are the product of that mixture do ... commit suicide? The descendants of pure Europeans ... should they be deported to Europe? What to do with the descendants of Africans?
    Isn't it time to leave history to be studied in books ... and look to the future?
    Italo, one can always count on you to be a voice of reason.

    Bless you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    Edited by moderator.

    I tell someone I'm removing his post for refusal to submit to moderation, and you quote it?

    Are you in your right senses?
    what is this about ?


    was this about catalans ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    what is this about ?
    was this about catalans ?
    My apologies; I only meant to remove the quote of Wanderer's statement which I EXPLICITLY said was deleted for refusal to submit to moderation.

    Your statement had something to do with the fact you were taught Columbus was a Catalan. Where? In Australia?

    I'd be very interested to see a citation showing that's what is taught in Australian schools. Or is this just more sticking it in the eye of the Genovese by a "Venetian", as you've done before.

    Btw, as a point of curiosity, were you born in the Veneto or are you a second generation Australian of Veneto descent? I've always meant to ask. That would certainly explain your inability to read and write in Italian or to know Italian history.

    No offense, of course; it's just good to know how much knowledge actually is behind people's statements.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Well, there's a precise statement for you: a hell of a lot of them were...

    Thank you Mr. Obvious. Anyone who has taken American History knows that some of the signers of the Constitution were in favor of slavery and that's why those clauses are in the Constitution.

    A debate takes two opposing sides, or doesn't it?

    How do the opinions of one side of the debate invalidate the efforts of those who wanted it banned, at a time when in many places in the Americas it was still being practiced? Hell, how much better was the serfdom practiced until the early part of the 20th century in Eastern Europe.

    Indeed, how does that invalidate what I said, which is that our children are being taught that all the Founding Fathers were slave owners and/or were in favor of slavery? That ok with you? You don't think that's a lie?

    Get a grip and give some thought to the times in which they lived, and stop judging the people of the past by the standards of today. Give them the credit for being eons ahead of where other political ideologies wound up, which was using the guillotine to bring about democracy.

    As for Washington, you besmirch him by using a simplistic reduction of what was a complicated man and situation. If one reads his private papers as well as the public ones, one can see that his attitude toward slavery changed over the course of his lifetime. He started out a typical southerner of his time, born into slavery, just as much as his slaves were born into it. Over time that changed. " Moral doubt about the institution first appeared in 1778 when Washington expressed reluctance to sell some of his enslaved workers at a public venue or split their families. At war’s end, Washington demanded without success that the British respect the preliminary peace treaty which he said required return of escaped slaves without exception. His public statement on resigning his commission, addressing challenges facing the new confederation, made no explicit mention of slavery. Politically, Washington felt that the divisive issue of American slavery threatened national cohesion, and he never spoke publicly about it. Privately, Washington considered plans in the mid 1790s to free his enslaved population. Those plans failed because of his inability to raise the finances necessary, the refusal of his family to approve emancipation of the dower slaves, and his own aversion to separating enslaved families. His will was widely published upon his death in 1799, and provided for the emancipation of the enslaved population he owned, one of the few slave-owning founders to set them free. Because many of his slaves were married to the dower slaves, whom he could not legally free, the will stipulated that, except for his valet William Lee who was freed immediately, his enslaved workers be emancipated on the death of his wife Martha. She freed them in 1801, a year before her own death, but she had no option to free the dower slaves, who were inherited by her grandchildren."

    You might try reading his actual will. I found it quite moving.

    We also fought the deadliest war in our history because of slavery, brother against brother, on our own soil. Is that still not enough for you? Or do you want to debate me about whether Lincoln just wanted to save the Union rather than free the slaves? Given the simplicity of your analysis of Washington, I don't doubt it. You'll lose. I've read dozens of books on Lincoln and I assure you I know him and his motivations for every statement he made far better than you do.

    Maybe you should go and tell the cities in England which grew fat and rich on the cotton from southern cotton fields to fuel their cloth mills to pay reparations too, or maybe a better idea would be to concentrate on the Arab and African countries where slavery is actually still practiced.

    Americans in name only like you make me tired. I have no time to waste in debating people who because of their own indoctrination will oversee the downfall of this country.

    WOKEDOM will be the death of this country, and that will be because people like you just don't get it.
    And yet, a few years after the bloodiest civil war southern states started to pass laws to undermine the gains that blacks made. In the early 1900s, we have the rise of the KKK, the apotheosis of Robert E Lee and other traitors with statues cropping up in every Southern state, with schools being named after them. Blacks were being lynched, denied voting rights, had to use separate buses or be relegated to the back of the bus, separate bathrooms, separate but equal. Please keep on making excuses for the racism in this country.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    My apologies; I only meant to remove the quote of Wanderer's statement which I EXPLICITLY said was deleted for refusal to submit to moderation.

    Your statement had something to do with the fact you were taught Columbus was a Catalan. Where? In Australia?

    I'd be very interested to see a citation showing that's what is taught in Australian schools. Or is this just more sticking it in the eye of the Genovese by a "Venetian", as you've done before.

    Btw, as a point of curiosity, were you born in the Veneto or are you a second generation Australian of Veneto descent? I've always meant to ask. That would certainly explain your inability to read and write in Italian or to know Italian history.

    No offense, of course; it's just good to know how much knowledge actually is behind people's statements.
    We'll have very soon the DNA result of Columbus.


    I've already opened a thread about it.


    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...opher-Columbus

  22. #147
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    As far as Washington is concerned here are fragments of a wikipedia article on him:

    Washington's early views on slavery were no different from any Virginia planter of the time.[51] He demonstrated no moral qualms about the institution, and referred to slaves as "a Species of Property" during those years as he would later in life when he favored abolition.[116] The economics of slavery prompted the first doubts in Washington about the institution, marking the beginning of a slow evolution in his attitude towards it. By 1766, he had transitioned his business from the labor-intensive planting of tobacco to the less demanding farming of grain crops. His slaves were employed on a greater variety of tasks that needed more skills than tobacco planting required of them; as well as the cultivation of grains and vegetables, they were employed in cattle herding, spinning, weaving and carpentry. The transition left Washington with a surplus of slaves and revealed to him the inefficiencies of the slave labor system.[117][118]
    There is little evidence that Washington seriously questioned the ethics of slavery before the Revolution.[118]

    .................................................. ...............

    The historian Henry Wiencek concludes that the repugnance Washington felt at this cruelty in which he had participated prompted his decision not to break up slave families by sale or purchase, and marks the beginning of a transformation in Washington's thinking about the morality of slavery.[121] Wiencek writes that in 1775 Washington took more slaves than he needed rather than break up the family of a slave he had agreed to accept in payment of a debt.[122] The historians Philip D. Morgan and Peter Henriques[e] are skeptical of Wiencek's conclusion and believe there is no evidence of any change in Washington's moral thinking at this stage. Morgan writes that in 1772, Washington was "all business" and "might have been buying livestock" in purchasing more slaves who were to be, in Washington's words, "strait Limb'd, & in every respect strong & likely, with good Teeth & good Countenance". Morgan gives a different account of the 1775 purchase, writing that Washington resold the slave because of the slave's resistance to being separated from family and that the decision to do so was "no more than the conventional piety of large Virginia planters who usually said they did not want to break up slave families – and often did it anyway".[124][125]

    As you see, all is not black and white in Washington's attitude towards slavery. Maybe by the time of his death, sensing that the end is near, he found religion so to speak, akin to many old people that become suddenly religious as the end of their lives draws near.

  23. #148
    Regular Member torzio's Avatar
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    while we are on slavery ................I would like to know .............T. Jefferson status
    he inherited 52 slaves from his father peter ( on his death )...Thomas was 21yo.

    he then got another 135 slaves a year after his marriage to martha ( these are her slaves ) .................due to the death of her father.

    Hemmings is from Martha slaves and not Thomas IIRC.

    when did he release his 52 slaves and maintain only his wife's 135 slaves ?

  24. #149
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Italo, one can always count on you to be a voice of reason.

    Bless you.
    Thank you very much Angela! These moral problems only afflict democratic societies ... dictatorships, whether political or religious, do not have that kind of conflict ... an "official morality" applies, regardless of whether people agree or not. ..

  25. #150
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