Politics "WOKE" America

Angela said:
What a concession: Almirante is "controversial". Hey, he was a man of his time. You know, the time when "some" Italians decided to adopt the Anti-Semitism, Anti-Gypsy, Anti-Black, Anti-Homosexual beliefs of their German neighbors so they too could be, well, if not Aryan, since they hardly looked the part, but honorary Aryans. I mean, if the Japanese could be honorary Aryans, why not Italians.

Yes, he was a man of his time. You know, the minority of men of his time who helped the Germans pack the Jews and gypsies, etc. onto the trains to concentration and extermination camps, and helped the SS slaughter old men, women, babies and their priests in the mountains because they gave food to their young sons hiding there so they wouldn't get conscripted and sent to Germany as slave labor, or forced to join the forces of the Salo puppet regime and kill their own people.

Do you have any idea how ridiculous this sounds? We're not talking about a "time" in ancient Rome when everyone believed in slavery. He, and others like him CHOSE this ideology, and they should have paid for it. Just as many others, the majority, I would submit, chose differently, although they lived in the same time.

As for this nonsense about April 25th being a creation of "Americanized" leftists, you have no freaking idea what you're talking about. Americans don't even know there was a virtual civil war in Italy or that we had partisans. The only partisans a few of them have ever heard of are the French ones, who were indeed a tiny percentage of the population.

I don't know where you come from. The Veneto? Lombardia? The South? On what side of the spectrum did your family fall?

Well, don't you dare tell me that we in Toscana, Liguria, Emilia, and other parts of the northwest celebrate April 25th because of the Americans. We celebrate it because our great-grandparents, grandparents and parents were among those who were killed by the Fascist Brigades who sided with the Germans against their own people. My mother's cousin was sent to a concentration camp for trying to sabotage production in the factories of Torino. Was he a Socialist? Yes, he was, but my great-aunt's husband, also a partisan, coordinated with the British in one of the Partisan that was decidedly not Socialist or Communist.

I also had a lot of family who served in the infantry and the navy, including my 17 year old father, who were sent into battle with no shoes, antique weapons and on and on, because that idiot Mussolini dragged us into a war for which we were unprepared. I abhor fascism, but Don't they teach history in Italian schools anymore? After the Armistice, when people like Almirante happily supported the puppet government of Salo, the Germans put our military men into POW camps, or disarmed and then executed them. I call men who would work with the Germans when they were killing and imprisoning Italian soldiers traitors.

Or maybe you want to talk about the average, non-political people who just wanted to survive the war; to protect their children. When, as a little child, my mother went to church one Sunday morning, there were four men and a woman hanging from the tree in front of the church for giving some food to the boys and ex-soldiers in the mountains. Germans regularly raided her uncle's farm, looking for young men, but also stealing all their food so that they were on the verge of starvation. There are memorials all over our hills to the people killed not just by the SS and the Wehrmacht, but by traitors like Almirante.

Don't you dare give me that twaddle about him being "a man of his time". Yes, he was one of the racist traitors of his time, siding with the Germans against his own people, and when he returned to Italy he continued to peddle the same bilge, bilge which Meloni thought was just fine, or she wouldn't have joined his party as a teen-ager.

Look, I get why 25% of Italy voted for Meloni, and 43% for the center-right coalition. I understand the frustrations with the stagnant economy, the high unemployment. I have wanted Italy to get out of the EU for more than ten years. I detest woke ideology, including gender ideology. I believe abortion on demand, past the first trimester, is wrong, and abortions in the last trimester are, imo, tantamount to infanticide. I don't think nationalism is a dirty word. I believe unregulated immigration of people with no skills and some of whom have no commitment to western values or democracy is a disaster for Italy and the rest of Europe.

How much real commitment to democracy does Meloni have, however? How sincere is she about anything? There are her speeches from the past and what she said to get elected. Now she wants to stay in the EU, she won't change the abortion laws or the laws providing for civil partnerships for gay people. She's a Christian woman, but she's not married, and she couldn't get her partner to marry in a church for her sake or even enter into a civil union for all I know. My father stopped going to Church after he was confirmed, never set foot in one except for weddings, baptisms and funerals of family or friends, was a complete anti-cleric, so much so that when I thought, in high school, that I wanted to be a nun, he went to my school and told the nuns to stop indoctrinating me. I could have died of embarrassment. Yet, he married in the Church because my mother was such a committed Catholic.

I don't trust politicians on principle, and I'm afraid Meloni gives me the same vibes that she's just another one who will say anything to get elected. What she'll do if she becomes Prime Minister, I don't know. I hope for my family's sake, for Italy's sake, that she does a good job, and I particularly hope that she's not a wolf in sheep's clothing.
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The bolded is exactly why I was delighted for the results. But I agree that Italians pretending to be Nazis is a by the very foundation of the thought, idiotic. The worst thing Mussolini ever did was side with Hitler, and adopt the racialist theories of Giulio Cogni. That's when the fascists they stopped being Italian nationalists, and became junior-partners and a foil to Germany.
 
Stuvanè said:
@Northener,


I obviously didn't mean to attack you: I am rarely radical in my opinions, the world is too complex for reason to be only on one side, so I respect your ideas.
It is true that Europe has experienced and enjoyed 70-odd years of (apparent) peace and prosperity. However, I believe at this point that it was more the result of a fortunate conjuncture, a phenomenon that proceeded by inertia until it basically died out in recent decades. It is very complicated to synthesise this process, but I believe that once the effects of the Marshall Plan with which the Old World was rebuilt and put back on its feet by the US after the Second World War wore off, and once the 'Founding Fathers' - i.e. the old generation of politicians who experienced the world conflict at first hand - were gone, there was no longer an effective and genuine propulsive thrust to this project.


As I wrote in Palermo, the EU was already born a bit lame, because at its origins it is a mere economic community (and perhaps it could not have been otherwise, given the very different nature and history of its members). And the moment it was decided to make it a supranational political structure, the economic interests of the most prosperous member states inevitably prevailed. This is why I speak of 'apparent peace': there are conflicts within the union, only instead of guns, financial turbulence (see the spread) is used and/or common funds are taken away from this or that country to put it in difficulty. It happened to Berlusconi, quite easily it will happen to Meloni if she wins.
What little politics the EU shows is more a reflection of what happens and what is wanted in Washington (especially if it is of the Democratic brand, and from this channel comes that heavy aura of woke culture that is adopted in our continent with manifest levelling and propagandistic functions). While NATO acts as a common army that recruited locally could hardly exist, because there the divergent political wills of the various countries would become apparent.


In practice, such a mess can only stand up in normal, run-of-the-mill times.
The Russian-Ukrainian conflict, on the other hand, brings many knots to the boil. There are at least two unforgivable mistakes: the first is to have understood nothing about Russia and its styles of government and power management. They made it a residual phenomenon, but that is not the case. Certainly, it is autarkic, archaic and in its own way 'barbaric' by our standards, but precisely for that reason it deserved an attention and caution that in the past decades has not been forthcoming in the West. If I have a ferocious animal in front of me, I do not go and tease it, neither now nor then. Full stop.
The second mistake is to forget that the geopolitical space in which the war would take place would be Europe itself. This time there are no buffer zones to allow us to be just listless and distracted spectators, this time the protagonists are us.
And the EU has really turned out to be a dwarf at this juncture.


On the possible influence that Italy and northern Italy in particular may have in the Balkans, I think Palermo can give you a better answer. Somewhere I read that Germany is already surreptitiously extending its sights on those areas, which makes me think that it is an area with a lot of potential, but now I cannot be more specific. As far as I see it, as long as our political class proves to be subordinate to certain Franco-German approaches, northern Italy may well be part of the Blue Banana, but under marginal conditions. In the Balkans it could perhaps become a leader, also thanks to a certain old cultural and rural background common to Old (Mediterranean) Europe.
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Thank you for the reply!

I guess Italy will not break with the EU. Yesterday the European Commission accorded 20 billions for the Corona Recovery as a part of total 192 billion euro. That's an amount of money Meloni will not refuse by leaving the union.....So no matter how technocratic the EU is (agree with that).

About it Russia it's clear that they were the one who invaded an independent country. No matter the background this is not tolerable. Besides that Russia is indeed differentiated from the West. They are even full of resentment to the West. But the fall of the SU was an implosion. The collaps of communism. And the nowadays virulent kind of nationalism (see the works of Dugin the Putin whisperer), is may be a wild beast, but may the wild beast has to face it's limits?

And about woke. As I stated before I'm against thought police of any kind. But I consider, especially in Europe, this as a kind of phantom also a prikdoll for the extremist. Q-anon, conspiracy thinking, maddened atmosphere....really I look at all this shaking my head......The last thing we need is a kind of Weimar were the extremes not only resemble each other but were responsible for a very filthy atmosphere. Modesty is what we need!
 
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FBI whistleblower: Counterterrorism cases against alleged right-wing extremists mostly ‘entrapment’
[FONT=&quot]The FBI’s counterterrorism investigations targeting suspected White supremacists and right-wing extremists are mostly “entrapment” operations, a former agent involved in those cases told The Washington Times.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The startling accusation came from Kyle Seraphin, an FBI agent of six years who was recently suspended by the bureau. He worked in multiple field offices in the counterterrorism division and conducted investigations of suspected domestic extremism and White supremacist plots over the past few years.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“My team was deployed to 20 or 25 different high-profile, national terrorism organization or terrorism investigations between 2018 and 2021. And what I saw, as the most obvious statement, is that there are three things about counterterrorism investigations:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“No. 1, the demand for White supremacy vastly outstrips the supply of White supremacy. No. 2, the [/FONT]FBI[FONT=&quot]’s playbook when it comes to counterterrorism investigations is always and unequivocally morally equivalent to entrapment, even if there’s a legal definition that allows them to skirt that.” Mr. [/FONT]Seraphin[FONT=&quot] said.[/FONT]FBI whistleblower: Counterterrorism cases against alleged right-wing extremists mostly 'entrapment' - Washington Times
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Angela said:
What a concession: Almirante is "controversial". Hey, he was a man of his time. You know, the time when "some" Italians decided to adopt the Anti-Semitism, Anti-Gypsy, Anti-Black, Anti-Homosexual beliefs of their German neighbors so they too could be, well, if not Aryan, since they hardly looked the part, but honorary Aryans. I mean, if the Japanese could be honorary Aryans, why not Italians.

Yes, he was a man of his time. You know, the minority of men of his time who helped the Germans pack the Jews and gypsies, etc. onto the trains to concentration and extermination camps, and helped the SS slaughter old men, women, babies and their priests in the mountains because they gave food to their young sons hiding there so they wouldn't get conscripted and sent to Germany as slave labor, or forced to join the forces of the Salo puppet regime and kill their own people.

Do you have any idea how ridiculous this sounds? We're not talking about a "time" in ancient Rome when everyone believed in slavery. He, and others like him CHOSE this ideology, and they should have paid for it. Just as many others, the majority, I would submit, chose differently, although they lived in the same time.

As for this nonsense about April 25th being a creation of "Americanized" leftists, you have no freaking idea what you're talking about. Americans don't even know there was a virtual civil war in Italy or that we had partisans. The only partisans a few of them have ever heard of are the French ones, who were indeed a tiny percentage of the population.

I don't know where you come from. The Veneto? Lombardia? The South? On what side of the spectrum did your family fall?

Well, don't you dare tell me that we in Toscana, Liguria, Emilia, and other parts of the northwest celebrate April 25th because of the Americans. We celebrate it because our great-grandparents, grandparents and parents were among those who were killed by the Fascist Brigades who sided with the Germans against their own people. My mother's cousin was sent to a concentration camp for trying to sabotage production in the factories of Torino. Was he a Socialist? Yes, he was, but my great-aunt's husband, also a partisan, coordinated with the British in one of the Partisan that was decidedly not Socialist or Communist.

I also had a lot of family who served in the infantry and the navy, including my 17 year old father, who were sent into battle with no shoes, antique weapons and on and on, because that idiot Mussolini dragged us into a war for which we were unprepared. I abhor fascism, but Don't they teach history in Italian schools anymore? After the Armistice, when people like Almirante happily supported the puppet government of Salo, the Germans put our military men into POW camps, or disarmed and then executed them. I call men who would work with the Germans when they were killing and imprisoning Italian soldiers traitors.

Or maybe you want to talk about the average, non-political people who just wanted to survive the war; to protect their children. When, as a little child, my mother went to church one Sunday morning, there were four men and a woman hanging from the tree in front of the church for giving some food to the boys and ex-soldiers in the mountains. Germans regularly raided her uncle's farm, looking for young men, but also stealing all their food so that they were on the verge of starvation. There are memorials all over our hills to the people killed not just by the SS and the Wehrmacht, but by traitors like Almirante.

Don't you dare give me that twaddle about him being "a man of his time". Yes, he was one of the racist traitors of his time, siding with the Germans against his own people, and when he returned to Italy he continued to peddle the same bilge, bilge which Meloni thought was just fine, or she wouldn't have joined his party as a teen-ager.

Look, I get why 25% of Italy voted for Meloni, and 43% for the center-right coalition. I understand the frustrations with the stagnant economy, the high unemployment. I have wanted Italy to get out of the EU for more than ten years. I detest woke ideology, including gender ideology. I believe abortion on demand, past the first trimester, is wrong, and abortions in the last trimester are, imo, tantamount to infanticide. I don't think nationalism is a dirty word. I believe unregulated immigration of people with no skills and some of whom have no commitment to western values or democracy is a disaster for Italy and the rest of Europe.

How much real commitment to democracy does Meloni have, however? How sincere is she about anything? There are her speeches from the past and what she said to get elected. Now she wants to stay in the EU, she won't change the abortion laws or the laws providing for civil partnerships for gay people. She's a Christian woman, but she's not married, and she couldn't get her partner to marry in a church for her sake or even enter into a civil union for all I know. My father stopped going to Church after he was confirmed, never set foot in one except for weddings, baptisms and funerals of family or friends, was a complete anti-cleric, so much so that when I thought, in high school, that I wanted to be a nun, he went to my school and told the nuns to stop indoctrinating me. I could have died of embarrassment. Yet, he married in the Church because my mother was such a committed Catholic.

I don't trust politicians on principle, and I'm afraid Meloni gives me the same vibes that she's just another one who will say anything to get elected. What she'll do if she becomes Prime Minister, I don't know. I hope for my family's sake, for Italy's sake, that she does a good job, and I particularly hope that she's not a wolf in sheep's clothing.
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Between post fascists, crypto fascists, communists and soviet collaborators I think you will find very little political virginity in the post war politicians of the 60s and 70s, ultimately Almirante and other post fascists laid the groundwork for a modern Italian right wing that has nothing to do with WW2 German ravings. Ironically those ideas somewhat permeate in the subconscious of the anti fascist Lega (Nord) and some sections of North Italian society who seem to have a very confused understanding of their origins.

As for the 25 April, what used to be a Liberation Day embraced by most Italians has slowly become over time an increasingly sectarian event dominated by the woke crowd, or americanized leftists. This coupled with a less one sided understanding of history has lead to a general disaffection towards the festivity to the point majority of Italians don't care. Those former "red regions" you listed all voted majority for Meloni's candidates, so I think they don't share your concerns about Meloni not taking part in the 25 April celebrations.
 
Carnimirie said:
Between post fascists, crypto fascists, communists and soviet collaborators I think you will find very little political virginity in the post war politicians of the 60s and 70s, ultimately Almirante and other post fascists laid the groundwork for a modern Italian right wing that has nothing to do with WW2 German ravings. Ironically those ideas somewhat permeate in the subconscious of the anti fascist Lega (Nord) and some sections of North Italian society who seem to have a very confused understanding of their origins.

As for the 25 April, what used to be a Liberation Day embraced by most Italians has slowly become over time an increasingly sectarian event dominated by the woke crowd, or americanized leftists. This coupled with a less one sided understanding of history has lead to a general disaffection towards the festivity to the point majority of Italians don't care. Those former "red regions" you listed all voted majority for Meloni's candidates, so I think they don't share your concerns about Meloni not taking part in the 25 April celebrations.
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Are you really suggesting that the foundations of today's right-wing parties have been laid on the murky, black foundations of Almirante and his followers? What does that say about the efforts made to track down perpetrators, to come to terms with a dark past? In retrospect: all carrying water to the sea? Is the next step a revaluation of Almirante c.s.? Why do you put Liberation day in the corner of 'sectarians, woke crowd, or americanized leftists'(whatever that all may be)?


@Angela part of your life's work is being broken down under your fingers. Sad but true.

Almirante in action:
 
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Democrats are the real racists is sort of a dumb argument.

But there is no denying the fact that Joe Biden's party was built on the foundations of groups like the Ku Klux Klan.

3EQjIsC.png
 
Jovialis said:
Democrats are the real racists is sort of a dumb argument.

But there is no denying the fact that Joe Biden's party was built on the foundations of groups like the Ku Klux Klan.

3EQjIsC.png
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Have I made a black vs white scenario? I'm well aware of the roots of the democratic party, but a dark chapter in the history of neo-facist in Italy doesn't disappear with a statement that KKK had also had impact on the Democratic party.

It's not aimed to put someone in a corner, more about awareness and disregard etc.

And imo it must seen in proportion it's an exaggeration to see in KKK the founding fathers of the Democratic party now. In stead on 6 jan 2021 the Oath Keepers and Proud Boys played a part in the mob revolt in the Capitol. I guess we must see it in the right proportions.
 
Jovialis said:
Jan 6, that is all you have.

Nevermind the murders, rapes, economic decline, riots, arsons, criminals that get a slap on the wrist for it, the families and people destroyed in the process etc committed by people who subscribe to your beliefs.

You disgust me, your ignorance is a disgrace!
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That's exactly symptomatic of the atmosphere in the US and more and more in Europe too, trenches, labeling and ad hominem. 'Play the ball not the man' seems to be forgotten.

I can argue with you about different things Jovialis but as the labels and ad hominem appear this developed immediately to a kind of "stopper".

It doesn't pas the three low levels in "Graham's Hierarchy of Disagreement":

 
Northener said:
That's exactly symptomatic of the atmosphere in the US and more and more in Europe too, trenches, labeling and first of all ad hominem. Play the ball not the man' seems to be forgotten.

I can argue with you about different things Jovialis but as the labels and ad hominem appear this developed immediately to a kind of "stopper".

It doesn't pas the tree low levels in "Graham's Hierarchy of Disagreement":

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Where is the part of the pyramid that shows ignoring rape, murder, war, economic decline because of brain dead ideology?
 
Jovialis said:
Where is the part of the pyramid that shows ignoring rape, murder, war, economic decline because of brain dead ideology?
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Imo that's in the eye of the beholder. In that part is the one with 'brain dead ideology' no longer a person but a representative of a 'brain dead ideology'. What rests is just pure disgust for the apparent ignorance. Mostly followed by wishing him terrible things....

So the dead lock beneath the level of name calling.
 
Northener said:
Imo that's in the eye of the beholder. In that part is the one with 'brain dead ideology', he is no longer a person but a representative of a 'brain dead ideology'. What rests is just pure disgust for the apparent ignorance. Mostly followed by wishing him terrible things....
So the dead lock beneath the level of name calling.
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Why don't you say that to the real life victims of liberal policies in this country. Your words are empty and a diversion from reality.

Thats what snowflakes are concerned about, name calling. Nevermind the people who get their faces slashed by insane criminal repeat offenders.
 
Carnimirie said:
Between post fascists, crypto fascists, communists and soviet collaborators I think you will find very little political virginity in the post war politicians of the 60s and 70s, ultimately Almirante and other post fascists laid the groundwork for a modern Italian right wing that has nothing to do with WW2 German ravings. Ironically those ideas somewhat permeate in the subconscious of the anti fascist Lega (Nord) and some sections of North Italian society who seem to have a very confused understanding of their origins.

As for the 25 April, what used to be a Liberation Day embraced by most Italians has slowly become over time an increasingly sectarian event dominated by the woke crowd, or americanized leftists. This coupled with a less one sided understanding of history has lead to a general disaffection towards the festivity to the point majority of Italians don't care. Those former "red regions" you listed all voted majority for Meloni's candidates, so I think they don't share your concerns about Meloni not taking part in the 25 April celebrations.
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People, perhaps Italians more than most, have short memories, or they wouldn't keep repeating the same mistakes over and over again.

Why did fascism arise? It gained adherents because the governments in power had no solutions for the poor economic condition of the people and for the disorder and lawlessness partly caused by that. The added attraction was that it was nationalistic, and promised a return to glory, unlike Communism, which also promised better times, but was supposedly international. It also was supposedly egalitarian, and anti-the oligarchs of industry and the large landowners. Of course, the reality was that it was not really international, certainly not in Russia, and the control of the economy would not be in the hands of the people but of the party elites.

My hope is that history will not repeat itself. The most likely result imo will be that Meloni and this government will fail, as the others have failed. She is already renouncing the policy positions which I support and which might spell good things for Italy.

That doesn't change that I abhor the people whom she admires and who founded her party.

As for Liberation Day, I have no idea where you come from, or whom your family supported in the Civil War, or with whom you are associated politically, but I can guess. So, speak for yourself and them, not all Italians. Don't you dare tell me that we in the Northwest don't celebrate it or care that the various groups who fought the Fascists did win, even at a sometimes terrible cost.

This conversation is at an end. After the Armistice the committed Fascists, people who were in the Fascist Brigades, were traitors, choosing the Germans over their own people, even when it meant the imprisonment and execution of our own troops, and I have nothing to say to people who support traitors.
 
Jovialis said:
The German government (not singling out the people, just their rulers) is still abusing Italy. But instead of national socialist, they are left wing this time.
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I don't judge whole ethnicities, or races, that is unfair and unrealistic. Rather, I hold individuals to a standard based on their moral character. My closest friends have always been diverse in ethnicity since I was a child. But I am sure the German government hates ethnic Germans more than anyone else on the planet.
 
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