Politics "WOKE" America

I don't know how many times I have to repeat the same explanation over and over before it is understood:

It is the minorities in the U.S. who want racial and "ethnic" categories on the census so that they can push for redistricting so that there will be voting districts with high numbers of minorities and thereby ensuring that there will be minorities in the legislatures like, for example, the House of Representatives.

The same is true for applications for colleges and universities, jobs, business loans etc. They want that information on the form because then they can get admitted with lower grades, get hired to fill quotas, get better terms for business loans etc.

Why does it matter that it is minorities that want racial and "ethnic" categories? Aren't they Americans too? In fact, Native Americans, some Hispanics (descendants of the inhabitant of Spanish Texas, New Mexico, California, Florida) and most Black people have been on the territory of the USA for longer than the majority of non-Hispanic white people. Their opinions or values also represent American culture. If they are the ones who want clearly distinct racial categories, then it means that they managed to impose their desires and shape American cultural identity. But the fact remains that it is an American specificity to sort people in racial/ethnic categories, even for official state purposes. It's a hallmark of Americanism to be asked, when filling a form (for whatever purpose) if we are Caucasian/White, Hispanic, Black, Native American, etc. In fact in some other Western countries like France it is prohibited to ask such questions for the government, schools, work, hospitals, etc. I am not saying that I agree with it. I personally dislike a lot of things about the French system (ban on DNA tests, no statistics on ethnic groups, all the excessed of the Covid restrictions I described here, and so on).

As for the U.S. not being able to forge a single identity, I stand by the fact that that's rich coming from countries where white people are separated from each other within one country.

I don't know who you are addressing. It feels it is me as Belgium is one of the few countries where 'white' people are separated from each others (linguistically). If it is, I have never said that the U.S. is not being able to forge a single identity. On the contrary, for such an ethnically and religiously diverse country, there is a surprising level of national identity.

Most of the very frequent users of this site, and most of the moderators, including me, who provide a lot of the content here, are Americans

That's not true. There are only two American moderators: you and Jovialis. Bicicleur and I are Belgian. Pax Augusta is Italian. LeBrok is Polish-Canadian. Ygorcs is Brazilian.

we're sick of certain European members constantly posting anti-American content based on an abysmal lack of knowledge of how things work in America.

I have not seen anything anti-American in this thread. I don't even understand why you are getting so worked up. What we are saying is public knowledge and is not controversial (at least I thought).
 
We Spaniards are not very proud of our behavior in the past, in our former colonies we had 16 racial castes starting with white European (born in Spain), Criollos (white descendant of Spaniards but born in America) and followed by mestizos, mulattos, cuarterones, pardos, blacks, Indians etc. .... These classifications are still present in Cuba and in the rest of the American countries, in fact, except for Peru, Bolivia and some other Central American countries, no other country has managed to have indigenous presidents after 200 years of independence, that is to say, the white Criollos continue to maintain power without caring about the consequences of poverty and social injustice.Then you are right, within the Hispanic community there is also a lot of racism. BUT

Who is the one who qualifies another person as white, what criteria do they use?

No Percentages of Amerindian, black or Jewish blood?

Purity of blood as we did the Spaniards who had to prove that we had no Moorish or Jewish blood in 10 generations to enter the army, the church, be teachers, doctors or civil servants?

Who can say that a Cuban is not white because he has Amerindian or black blood when surely many of those white people of North European descent will have the same percentages (especially those who arrived in the early years of the colony) If these gentlemen met Cameron Diaz on the street, would they say that he is not white despite his Nordic appearance because he has a small percentage of Cuban, Amerindian or black blood? Don't you think it's funny that someone is labeled as belonging to a certain ethnic group simply for speaking Spanish?

I have never really understood why many northern Europeans and their American redneck friends are obsessed with these racial classifications and why they want to monopolize whiteness-Could someone explain it to me?

We Basques have had throughout our history a racist behavior that has been a real disaster. Some ultra-nationalist morons continue to think that some people are superior to others because of their physical appearance, the color of their skin, their craniometry or their hemotypology. I have lost friends and family in terrorist attacks committed by Basque fanatics, simply because our political ideas were different. And they did everything in the name of the Basque people, our language, and our race. I hope we are already vaccinated against violence because we have been in peace for many years.

But that does not mean that we agree with the immigration policies of the European Union, we do not like that foreigners have preference over Spaniards when it comes to receiving social aid or that they are paid houses, subsidies, schools and public health without paying taxes. The European Union is going to commit suicide if it continues to apply these policies.

I think some woke people are more hung-up on percentages than right-wingers. Just take a look at what happened when Elizabeth Warren tried to claim being native American; I recall it was some tiny percent. She was mocked brutally, by the left, and the right.

In fact, the mantra that I hear now from conservatives is that they consider themselves "color-blind", meaning that they only want to judge people by merit. However the new school of thought from the woke left is that race does matter, and to ignore it, is to ignore "white supremacy" and "white privilege".

A woke educator, Barnor Hesse, recently made a chart of 8 white identities, here it is in his words:

7hnenAp.jpg


Qyds1As.jpg


Being woke means if you are not actively trying to dismantle and abolish whiteness, you have an affinity to "White Supremacy". Treating everyone fairly, and ignoring race only makes you complicit in white supremacy according to people like Hesse.

NYC public school asks parents to 'reflect' on their 'whiteness' (nypost.com)
 
Thanks, Jovialis. This chart of the 8 white identities is helpful in understanding the issues in American society today. There is no equivalent in Europe. There isn't really a 'white' vs 'coloured' issue in Europe. It is a conflict of values between Western society and the more intransigent and intolerant branches of Islam. Most Europeans know that not all Muslims are against Western values. They also know that Muslims cannot be recognised by the colour of their skin. In the UK for instance, about half of the South Asians are Muslims (mostly Pakistani and Bangladeshi), while the other half are Hindu, Sikh, Jain, Christian or unaffiliated. Black African immigrants are also split between Christians and Muslims (and folk religions, but they are rarer). Even in the Middle East there are quite a few Christians.

So race is not the issue. First it is values. In second place I would say it is the socio-economic levels of recent immigrants. Let's be frank, no country wants to deal with lots of poor and uneducated immigrants. That's why there are criteria of selections for visas. But not so much for refugees, which why the Syrian crisis caused such turmoil.

It is sometimes hard for Europeans to understand the situation in the US as there isn't a huge non-white population in Europe. As of 2021, only 60% of the US population is non-Hispanic white. Non-whites make up only 2% of Europe's population if we consider Arabs and Berbers as white. Non-whites are mostly Black Africans, and they are distributed very unevenly across the continent. There are almost none in the former Eastern Bloc, but 5.5 million in France (out of 12.5 million in all Europe). That's 8.5% of the French population and that's the closest it gets to the USA.

But it is also hard for Americans to understand the conflict with radical Muslims as there is only 1% of Muslims in the US, and most of them are well educated South Asians living around New York or San Francisco with good jobs, not poor, uneducated and radicalised immigrants. Once again the percentages vary widely by country, with hardly any in the former Eastern Bloc except where Islam is the traditional religion. In Western and Northern Europe, most country have around 5-7% of Muslims. The highest percentages are in France (9%), Sweden (8%), Belgium (7.5%) and the Netherlands (7%).

So, two completely different situations in the US and (mostly Western) Europe.
 
Thanks, Jovialis. This chart of the 8 white identities is helpful in understanding the issues in American society today. There is no equivalent in Europe as there isn't really a 'white' vs 'coloured' issue in Europe. It is a conflict of values between Western society and the more intransigent and intolerant branches of Islam. Most Europeans know that not all Muslims are against Western values. They also know that Muslims cannot be recognised by the colour of their skin. In the UK for instance, about half of the South Asians are Muslims (mostly Pakistani and Bangladeshi), while the other half are Hindu, Sikh, Jain, Christian or unaffiliated. Black African immigrants are also split between Christians and Muslims (and folk religions, but they are rarer). Even in the Middle East there are quite a few Christians.

So race is not the issue. First it is values. In second place I would say it is the socio-economic levels of recent immigrants. Let's be frank, no country wants to deal with lots of poor and uneducated immigrants. That's why there are criteria of selections for visas. But not so much for refugees, which why the Syrian crisis caused such turmoil.

From my own anecdotal experience, I feel as though deep down inside, most people, white, black, Hispanic, etc. judge people by their merit, and the content of their character; not their race. The problem in the United States, imo, is that our education system, vapid celebrities, many of our elites, and corporations, promote woke culture. I recall from an article that Angela posted a while ago, that showed only a very small percent of people believe in "political correctness". However, these people are also very influential.
 
From my own anecdotal experience, I feel as though most people, white, black, Hispanic, etc. just want to judge people by their merit, and not their race. The problem in the United States, imo, is that our education system, some of our elites, and corporations, promote woke culture. I recall from an article that Angela posted a while ago, that showed only a very small percent of people believe in "political correctness". However, these people are also very influential.

I guess I don't really get it yet. Why 'if most people want to judge people by their merit' is there still such a 'racial classification' system? Seems not logic to me....
 
I guess I don't really get it yet. Why 'if most people want to judge people by their merit' is there still such a 'racial classification' system? Seems not logic to me....

I think it should be done away with personally. They are outmoded constructs that are not based on modern science.

When I am asked to declare my ethnicity on forms, I always put that I prefer not to answer. I don't see any benefit for me to give them that information. In fact, it could possibly be used to discriminate against me.
 
@Jovialis

I sincerely believe that all Americans (north and south) are truly obsessed with the issue of races because it is a racially heterogeneous continent. I also believe that since the fall of the Berlin Wall and the definitive triumph of capitalism, the left has lost the reference to the class struggle and has to look for other ways of confronting the conservatives. In Europe, a large part of the old voters of the left do not vote for workers' parties but for xenophobic ultra-nationalist parties (National Front, Lega Nord, VOX). The leftists have to look for alternatives to seek votes to hide their failure and since they will not be able to overthrow the European democratic regimes, they have decided to fight them from the institutions developing a new ideology that is inspired by the North American left (which is incongruous, because European leftists have always hated the United States)-Now they are dedicated to supporting the feminist movement (sexism), illegal immigrants, indigenism (repudiating the history of most European countries), homosexuality, minority races (Moors, Arabs, South Americans, Chinese) regional nationalism (northern Italy, Scotland, Flanders, Corsica, Catalonia, Balkans, Macedonia) etc etc, that is, they have looked for new voters and have probably found them.

It does not surprise me therefore that in the USA the left uses “Race does matter”, they are simply looking for votes in social minorities and in self-conscious whites and seek privileges in the education of their children, public health, jobs, salaries, etc. Meanwhile I suppose that the conservatives try to maintain their privileges (as it happens in Europe) and wave the flag of the Mexican, Asian or Arab invasion. I do not know if those racial classifications of the United States census are requested by those minorities to obtain privileges, if so, I think it is an unfair system for all those who do not belong to those minorities. I have already said that in the case of the Hispanic ethnicity it is simply the government's attempt to control a minority that can become a demographic threat.

Here in Spain, people integrate very well, Latin Americans speak Spanish, many are Catholic and just want to work and progress. Many (especially Venezuelans, Peruvians, Mexicans and Cubans) hate the communist regimes that have expelled them from their countries, and many of them even vote for xenophobic parties. It does not matter if they are more or less white, and nobody asks them how they qualify racially, in fact, since they have their origin in former Spanish colonies (including the Philippines and some American states ) they have the privilege of obtaining Spanish nationality in two years.Muslims are poorly integrated and we have suffered horrible terrorist attacks, yet we are proud that there has not been a single xenophobic attack on Magrebies.

Regarding the 8 white identities, I do not think it will ever be a problem for me, because since I am Basque Spaniard and speak Spanish and Euzkera, I suppose that I would have to qualify in the census as Hispanic and therefore I would not be white and would have the right to those minority privileges.
 
Racism as you call it is ingrained with man and will not be removed any time soon.

America's "race obsession" as you call it is just an extension of how it was founded by West Europeans surrounded by biological outsiders and Christianity already made it possible for a "pan-european" identity to form.
 
I think some woke people are more hung-up on percentages than right-wingers. Just take a look at what happened when Elizabeth Warren tried to claim being native American; I recall it was some tiny percent. She was mocked brutally, by the left, and the right.

In fact, the mantra that I hear now from conservatives is that they consider themselves "color-blind", meaning that they only want to judge people by merit. However the new school of thought from the woke left is that race does matter, and to ignore it, is to ignore "white supremacy" and "white privilege".

A woke educator, Barnor Hesse, recently made a chart of 8 white identities, here it is in his words:

7hnenAp.jpg


Qyds1As.jpg


Being woke means if you are not actively trying to dismantle and abolish whiteness, you have an affinity to "White Supremacy". Treating everyone fairly, and ignoring race only makes you complicit in white supremacy according to people like Hesse.

NYC public school asks parents to 'reflect' on their 'whiteness' (nypost.com)

Indeed Jovialis this is neo-racism. IMO follows a kind of downwards spiral between two extremes.....extreme right wing populist to the extreme woke types. That's the Yugo scenario I was talking about. Let's hope this spiral doesn't get out of control.

Angela had the right quote from Martin Luther King: "Every man should be judged by the content of his character, not the color of his skin".
 
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I don't think that's true any more. Over 25% of Switzerland's population is foreign - one of the highest percentage in Europe and it keeps rising steadily year after year. Add to that about half a million of naturalised citizens. Among those foreigners 16% (so 4% of the total population) are from outside Europe, with the Middle East and Africa on top.

Among the Europeans, many are South Europeans, including 300,000 from ex-Yugoslavia (3.7% of the Swiss population) and 321,000 from Italy (4% of the population).

if you add naturalized people and people with only partial recent foreign ancestry you will be in the 40-50% range. it's a bit ridiculous to bad mouth modern switzerland just because of personal past experiences. Angela said that switzerland has no national feeling that isn't based on ethnicity/language. i think it is rather the opposite, switzerland is a country which can't really have a national feeling that is based on "ethnicity". if it was just for ethnicity/language switzerland would not exist.
 
if you add naturalized people and people with only partial recent foreign ancestry you will be in the 40-50% range. it's a bit ridiculous to bad mouth modern switzerland just because of personal past experiences. Angela said that switzerland has no national feeling that isn't based on ethnicity/language. i think it is rather the opposite, switzerland is a country which can't really have a national feeling that is based on "ethnicity". if it was just for ethnicity/language switzerland would not exist.

I feel like the Swiss society seems most influenced by Reformation for some reason. Can not really put my finger on it rhetorically, its just an intuition/ a gut feeling.

Work hard. Save money. Be discrete. Mind your own business.
As a Balkan person I really liked my short stays there, mainly visiting family. Clean, prosperous, cultured. But Holy... They might wanna take a break from working that hard. I thought it was a stereotype of sorts, but these people aren't kidding.

And also, from all the countries I have visited, never saw anywhere foreigners more integrated, and as soon as the very first generation. I guess working hard, making money and minding your business are values most people can subscribe to, regardless of the background. Thinking of it in terms of psychology, it makes sense, you get rewarded to fit in, and it creates a virtuous cycle.
 
I feel like the Swiss society seems most influenced by Reformation for some reason. Can not really put my finger on it rhetorically, its just an intuition/ a gut feeling.

Work hard. Save money. Be discrete. Mind your own business.
As a Balkan person I really liked my short stays there, mainly visiting family. Clean, prosperous, cultured. But Holy... They might wanna take a break from working that hard. I thought it was a stereotype of sorts, but these people aren't kidding.

And also, from all the countries I have visited, never saw anywhere foreigners more integrated, and as soon as the very first generation. I guess working hard, making money and minding your business are values most people can subscribe to, regardless of the background. Thinking of it in terms of psychology, it makes sense, you get rewarded to fit in, and it creates a virtuous cycle.

Sounds almost like a description of the (old) Dutch culture:grin:
 
@Jovialis

I sincerely believe that all Americans (north and south) are truly obsessed with the issue of races because it is a racially heterogeneous continent. I also believe that since the fall of the Berlin Wall and the definitive triumph of capitalism, the left has lost the reference to the class struggle and has to look for other ways of confronting the conservatives. In Europe, a large part of the old voters of the left do not vote for workers' parties but for xenophobic ultra-nationalist parties (National Front, Lega Nord, VOX). The leftists have to look for alternatives to seek votes to hide their failure and since they will not be able to overthrow the European democratic regimes, they have decided to fight them from the institutions developing a new ideology that is inspired by the North American left (which is incongruous, because European leftists have always hated the United States)-Now they are dedicated to supporting the feminist movement (sexism), illegal immigrants, indigenism (repudiating the history of most European countries), homosexuality, minority races (Moors, Arabs, South Americans, Chinese) regional nationalism (northern Italy, Scotland, Flanders, Corsica, Catalonia, Balkans, Macedonia) etc etc, that is, they have looked for new voters and have probably found them.

It does not surprise me therefore that in the USA the left uses “Race does matter”, they are simply looking for votes in social minorities and in self-conscious whites and seek privileges in the education of their children, public health, jobs, salaries, etc. Meanwhile I suppose that the conservatives try to maintain their privileges (as it happens in Europe) and wave the flag of the Mexican, Asian or Arab invasion. I do not know if those racial classifications of the United States census are requested by those minorities to obtain privileges, if so, I think it is an unfair system for all those who do not belong to those minorities. I have already said that in the case of the Hispanic ethnicity it is simply the government's attempt to control a minority that can become a demographic threat.

Here in Spain, people integrate very well, Latin Americans speak Spanish, many are Catholic and just want to work and progress. Many (especially Venezuelans, Peruvians, Mexicans and Cubans) hate the communist regimes that have expelled them from their countries, and many of them even vote for xenophobic parties. It does not matter if they are more or less white, and nobody asks them how they qualify racially, in fact, since they have their origin in former Spanish colonies (including the Philippines and some American states ) they have the privilege of obtaining Spanish nationality in two years.Muslims are poorly integrated and we have suffered horrible terrorist attacks, yet we are proud that there has not been a single xenophobic attack on Magrebies.

Regarding the 8 white identities, I do not think it will ever be a problem for me, because since I am Basque Spaniard and speak Spanish and Euzkera, I suppose that I would have to qualify in the census as Hispanic and therefore I would not be white and would have the right to those minority privileges.

I think only very dumb people would think that here. However, those are also the kind of people that are likely to be racist (Both white power and woke)
 
I think only very dumb people would think that here. However, those are also the kind of people that are likely to be racist (Both white power and woke)


There are ignorant people in every country, but in any case, I myself prefer to be considered Hispanic or Non white, because I feel much closer to a Mexican, an Argentinean or a Puerto Rican than to an Anglo-Saxon from New England because culturally they are much closer to us. I don't care if those ignorant people consider that Cubans, Mexicans or Argentines are not white because they have a small percentage of Amerindian blood. Nor do I care if they are conservatives or leftists. What strikes me is that they force people at schools to racially classify their children. This is supposedly done to better distribute aid to those who need it most (I would like to think that we are talking about an altruistic policy) but in reality it hides a terrible fear of losing the power they have enjoyed for 200 years.

It reminds me of the policy of the Spanish Monarchy in the American colonies, where the Italians, Greeks, Portuguese, French, Flemish or Irish who emigrated were not considered white peninsulars (Spaniards), even if they were natives of Spanish territories such as Sicily, Naples, Franche-Comté, Flanders etc, but were separated into different groups where they had to state their nationality, race, physical characteristics (scars, height, hair and eye color), purity of blood, occupation. The consequence is that they were always considered second-class citizens (as if they were moors or jews) by the local authorities.
 
I was for a while "liberal" if anything mainly for economic reasons, but I can no longer tolerate this. Trump is out of office, so most crazy and over-the-top nonsense from the right no longer matters to me. I want public healthcare and higher corporate taxes, but at this point the Democrats are giving up on those things to fight a culture war that will either be crushed, or trigger a civil war, which they will inevitably lose anyway. I do not want woke garbage being taught in schools, and will cross party lines to vote against it.

Many Europeans I talk to seem to regard 'Blue' America as more similar to Europe in values and culture, and therefore preferable. Such people make the same naïve mistake as classical liberals and rationalists whose only involvement politically is fear of 'Red' America's hostility towards knowledge and critical thinking. Yet there are so many warning that the expert class in Blue America is compromised by woke ideology, and too many liberals cover their ears and refuse to listen. The fact that people like Anderson Cooper tolerate, platform, and then repeat this crap on a daily basis should delegitimize them.
 
There are ignorant people in every country, but in any case, I myself prefer to be considered Hispanic or Non white, because I feel much closer to a Mexican, an Argentinean or a Puerto Rican than to an Anglo-Saxon from New England because culturally they are much closer to us. I don't care if those ignorant people consider that Cubans, Mexicans or Argentines are not white because they have a small percentage of Amerindian blood. Nor do I care if they are conservatives or leftists. What strikes me is that they force people at schools to racially classify their children. This is supposedly done to better distribute aid to those who need it most (I would like to think that we are talking about an altruistic policy) but in reality it hides a terrible fear of losing the power they have enjoyed for 200 years.
It reminds me of the policy of the Spanish Monarchy in the American colonies, where the Italians, Greeks, Portuguese, French, Flemish or Irish who emigrated were not considered white peninsulars (Spaniards), even if they were natives of Spanish territories such as Sicily, Naples, Franche-Comté, Flanders etc, but were separated into different groups where they had to state their nationality, race, physical characteristics (scars, height, hair and eye color), purity of blood, occupation. The consequence is that they were always considered second-class citizens (as if they were moors or jews) by the local authorities.

I always found it nice to find commonality with people. Especially if they come from different backgrounds. I grew up in a majority Hispanic area. I think I had more Hispanic friends, than I did from other ethnic groups. For me, race and ethnicity absolutely does not matter in my inter-personal relationships. Which is why I resent the divisive woke rethoric. From my anecdotal experience, most Hispanics are definitely not woke. Moreover, this new-speech woke academics are promoting is totally manufactured, they now call them "Latinx" as to make it gender-neutral. Which is completely foolish and unnecessary.
 
I always found it nice to find commonality with people. Especially if they come from different backgrounds. I grew up in a majority Hispanic area. I think I had more Hispanic friends, than I did from other ethnic groups. For me, race and ethnicity absolutely does not matter in my inter-personal relationships. Which is why I resent the divisive woke rethoric. From my anecdotal experience, most Hispanics are definitely not woke. Moreover, this new-speech woke academics are promoting is totally manufactured, they now call them "Latinx" as to make it gender-neutral. Which is completely foolish and unnecessary.

Yes, and most "Hispanic" people don't agree with the Lxtxnx bxllshxt.

Looking back on this thread, some people on here to understand the problem of how deeply-rooted wokeness is in the US in certain sectors, probably due to just low-quality education, and how detrimental that is to harmony in this country.

If you're black (for instance), that's cool, but I don't really give a damn. Stop bringing it up constantly. It is insufferable. But on Twitter we have "Unapologetically Black 🥰" slay queens who can't shut up about it for more than 2 seconds. The irony is that white conservatives (except the alt-right, which is roundly hated) are the ones trying to make it irrelevant. White liberals are more likely to behave condescendingly toward minorities than the oh-so-racist conservatives. Because the definition of racism has now shifted, conservatives are not called racist anymore for open hostility towards minorities, but simply for not caring about race. Most of the Europeans on here who (rightfully) criticize American obsession with race would be labelled racist by the same. Woke columnist Solomon Jones interprets white conservatives being less condescending as doing less to hide their racism.

There's more to it than meets the eye, and it's not, as the media portrays it to the rest of the world, a group of crusty bigots resistant to change trying to preserve systems of discrimination against minorities vs. enlightened, open-minded, and tolerant activists fighting for everyone's rights. I would encourage Europeans reading this to keep that in mind.
 
Not very nice to pollute the forum with your deranged alt-right garbage, while insulting people in the process.
 
Biden needs to lose in the next election, this has gone far beyond the pale.

The FBI is being used to probe parents that are taking a stand against Critical Race Theory (CRT) (i.e. Woke education)

https://nypost.com/2021/10/05/parents-pols-slam-fbi-probe-into-crt-related-harassment-in-schools/

The FBI normally goes after organized crime, terrorists, serial killers, etc.

You are really going to put PARENTS who are concerned about what their children are learning in school on that list?

Given the whistleblower from Facebook saying that conflict and anger keep people engaged. It makes me wonder if the government knows that CRT has this effect as well to galvanize left-wing constituencies. However, while you can just log off of Facebook, the Left want to make CRT, anger and hate, omnipresent, and part of school curriculum.

Facebook knew the formula, as do other social media platforms, they are decidedly a Democrat/Left-wing, and work to promote the values and polices of that ideology.

This is simply appalling, and deeply disturbing.

We need to break up the woke-corporate power elite, and take money out of politics. But I am afraid that ship has sailed for this country.
 
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