Politics "WOKE" America

Well, Northener, when I'm pressed for time, this is not the thread to which I'm drawn, so I didn't see it; too busy playing with Vahaduo and Globe 13. I apologize for misreading the exchange between you and Jovialis over that line.

As for associating you, or your family, with Nazi terror, I did no such thing.

You have the most remarkable capacity for making every comment about you personally, and then taking offense. You also, imo, have an inability to look at each situation individually and trying to logically analyze it. Instead, operating from the perspective that anything associated with Republicans is virtual fascism, you just always spout your anti-American canned ideas, instead of presenting logical arguments. So, if I don't unlock and read every one of your posts, and instead usually only see the ones quoted by others, now you know why. There, I've now given you an actual reason for taking offense.

Now, go ahead and have your last word, although I assure you I won't read it.

Excuse accepted!

And no you don't accuse my ancestry directly of Nazi Terror. Nevertheless why you made a reaction that started with a 'Nazi trauma'. Which relationship has that with prejudices about the Dutch? And especially in my case it is something from a prejudice that is really besides the reality!

And eveytime you react on my posting you see me as some some kind of figure I don't recognize myself in:
- I'm not anti- American, I stated over and over again, I'm worried about some developments in America but that's more because some intrest than of antipathy. I even liked Reagan for example, not so much because of it's policy more is humor....And indeed Trump stands for everything I disgust in persona and in policy (but I hope Trump is still not Rpublican general, initial he was registered Democrat was he?);
- I'm not anti Italian, I love it and Rome especially. History on every piece of it...marvelous. Doesn't it mean I have some prejudices about Italians, yes I have some, like in my view the 'too fast hysterical' stereotype...(but means also the reverse I'm mostly understated ;) Nevertheless I don't experience that with my Italian neighbor and also not with Jovialis....exceptions to the rule ;)

ahum and....
You also, imo, have an inability to look at each situation individually and trying to logically analyze it.
.....is from the Olymp.

I don't know if this is a cultural thing or something else (I guess the last), but also a last sentence with
although I assure you I won't read it
is for me the arrogance par excellence....really nerves me, but that's obvious the set up, I don't know..... soit.
 
Last edited:
Yes, sorry for the misunderstanding. I did change the text in the quote and wrote "Fixed that for you"

I meant it as a FTFY (Fixed that for you) lampoon of his post:

Yes I interpreted it in this (your) way.....but changing posts of others stays tricky because readers don't necessarily see the humor or see it's witty. Even more readers who have the conviction 'he is every inch anti-Italian I feel it in my toes' ;) ....for them is such a modification already enough to put me in a corner...

But what the heck have a nice day!
 
Maybe not, btw, I'm looking for those raw videos of Biden back in 1994. Incredible how they scrubbed it! It must be nice to have YouTube and others in your pocket.

Joe Biden and the Democrats are actually more fascist by definition, since their administration is a merger of state and corporate power.

Some kind of corporatism is indeed part of for example Catholic Social thought and is part of the Christian Democrat ideology as some Social Democrats/ Third Way too...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism
 
Last edited:
I was thinking about making another thread called "Woke Europe"

Giorgia Meloni May Lead Italy, and Europe Is Worried

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/15/world/europe/giorgia-meloni-italy-right.html

Let's go Giorgia!

The real worry lies in authoritarianism, so the denial of pluralism.

Meloni is an exemplification of it, the core symbol of fascism is the fasces, you can't choose a more authoritarian symbol.

Authoritarianism is something of radical right and left, Benito Mussolini belonged at first to the radical left later to the radical right. They have the same mindset, can't stand pluralism. That's suffocating.
 
To me it seems like everyone the left dislikes is the new Hitler. Therefore I discount the accusation, like the boy who cried wolf. I think most people right of center, and even center feel that way.
 
To me it seems like everyone the left dislikes is the new Hitler. Therefore I discount the accusation, like the boy who cried wolf. I think most people right of center, and even center feel that way.

New Hitler etc is just a label, to me it's the content that matters.....
 
There is the same difference between Meloni and actual Fascism as there is between a cat and a lion. There's no proportion.


I won't go into the merits of her political proposal (which personally still seems to me quite weak - not so much on content as on feasibility - and conducted by people who are not fully prepared in political and cultural terms, but I hope I'm wrong).
Of one thing I am certain: that all the ubbishness that Europe pours into such a political formation depends on the fact that they might be faced with politicians who are less compliant with the Eurobureaucrats.


Because the substantial difference is right there: that in fact, the PD and the current Italian left-wing forces in general are systematically prone to everything that is ordered from Brussels or other chancelleries on the continent, which very rarely corresponds to our internal national interests. Let us then not speak of what comes from the USA: the PD and its satellites are the Italic branch of US democrats, in some ways even of the more radical ones, and they are the main carriers of overseas 'woke' nonsense. People who, when faced with real economic and internal security problems and emergencies, juggle for weeks or months on end with inclusive Italian and waste time wondering whether the masculine and feminine endings in names should be abolished and replaced with an asterisk or schwa... it's clear that with such layabouts, life is very easy for those who want to cheat us.

The trouble is that such phenomena within the country also have their way with other apparatuses, first and foremost the judiciary, the TV/Media and the universities, and this not since the day before yesterday, but for decades (we can even say since the end of World War II). If one really has to blame the right wing, it should be accused of neglecting culture, which is a very powerful weapon whose effects are consolidated over the medium to long term (not that the left wing is making culture here, more often it produces pseudo-culture, but in the meantime it occupies the control room).


Rest assured that if there is an asphyxiating and authoritarian cloak of power these days, it doesn't come from Meloni, but one must look elsewhere...
 
There is the same difference between Meloni and actual Fascism as there is between a cat and a lion. There's no proportion.


I won't go into the merits of her political proposal (which personally still seems to me quite weak - not so much on content as on feasibility - and conducted by people who are not fully prepared in political and cultural terms, but I hope I'm wrong).
Of one thing I am certain: that all the ubbishness that Europe pours into such a political formation depends on the fact that they might be faced with politicians who are less compliant with the Eurobureaucrats.


Because the substantial difference is right there: that in fact, the PD and the current Italian left-wing forces in general are systematically prone to everything that is ordered from Brussels or other chancelleries on the continent, which very rarely corresponds to our internal national interests. Let us then not speak of what comes from the USA: the PD and its satellites are the Italic branch of US democrats, in some ways even of the more radical ones, and they are the main carriers of overseas 'woke' nonsense. People who, when faced with real economic and internal security problems and emergencies, juggle for weeks or months on end with inclusive Italian and waste time wondering whether the masculine and feminine endings in names should be abolished and replaced with an asterisk or schwa... it's clear that with such layabouts, life is very easy for those who want to cheat us.

The trouble is that such phenomena within the country also have their way with other apparatuses, first and foremost the judiciary, the TV/Media and the universities, and this not since the day before yesterday, but for decades (we can even say since the end of World War II). If one really has to blame the right wing, it should be accused of neglecting culture, which is a very powerful weapon whose effects are consolidated over the medium to long term (not that the left wing is making culture here, more often it produces pseudo-culture, but in the meantime it occupies the control room).


Rest assured that if there is an asphyxiating and authoritarian cloak of power these days, it doesn't come from Meloni, but one must look elsewhere...

Of course 2022 is not 1922....nevertheless Meloni was already at 15 years a convinced member of the neo fascist MSI. For me fascist is not an easy label (for everything on the right spectrum), but a real ideology that underwent changes of course but is still present....

And the complain about the left wing controlled media (we hear that in the Netherlands too) is complete nonsense. See the TV stations of Mediaset from Berlusconi. You can watch those stations-as much Italians do obviously- without being confronted with other media. Besides that youngsters don't watch TV stations any longer and on the net there are lots of channels unto the most obscure.

The real trouble I have with authoritarianism (either right-which is incredible stronger than the left wing variant nowadays), in the Putin, Orban, or Meloni variant is that they are in essence anti-plurality and anti-democratic.

And the thing is not Eurocrat bashing but the European front against types as Putin, until recent large parts of extreme right were in the pocket of Putin, even funded by him.
 
Stuvane: Nice post. I will not comment much but I will ask one question, how is the EU "democratic". Can you tell me who elected those folks. Sounds very similar to me what the great English-Catholic writer G.K. Chesterton described as an "arrogant oligarchy".
 
There is the same difference between Meloni and actual Fascism as there is between a cat and a lion. There's no proportion.


I won't go into the merits of her political proposal (which personally still seems to me quite weak - not so much on content as on feasibility - and conducted by people who are not fully prepared in political and cultural terms, but I hope I'm wrong).
Of one thing I am certain: that all the ubbishness that Europe pours into such a political formation depends on the fact that they might be faced with politicians who are less compliant with the Eurobureaucrats.


Because the substantial difference is right there: that in fact, the PD and the current Italian left-wing forces in general are systematically prone to everything that is ordered from Brussels or other chancelleries on the continent, which very rarely corresponds to our internal national interests. Let us then not speak of what comes from the USA: the PD and its satellites are the Italic branch of US democrats, in some ways even of the more radical ones, and they are the main carriers of overseas 'woke' nonsense. People who, when faced with real economic and internal security problems and emergencies, juggle for weeks or months on end with inclusive Italian and waste time wondering whether the masculine and feminine endings in names should be abolished and replaced with an asterisk or schwa... it's clear that with such layabouts, life is very easy for those who want to cheat us.

The trouble is that such phenomena within the country also have their way with other apparatuses, first and foremost the judiciary, the TV/Media and the universities, and this not since the day before yesterday, but for decades (we can even say since the end of World War II). If one really has to blame the right wing, it should be accused of neglecting culture, which is a very powerful weapon whose effects are consolidated over the medium to long term (not that the left wing is making culture here, more often it produces pseudo-culture, but in the meantime it occupies the control room).


Rest assured that if there is an asphyxiating and authoritarian cloak of power these days, it doesn't come from Meloni, but one must look elsewhere...

Bravo! A rational and intelligent response from someone actually on the ground.
 
Of course 2022 is not 1922....nevertheless Meloni was already at 15 years a convinced member of the neo fascist MSI. For me fascist is not an easy label (for everything on the right spectrum), but a real ideology that underwent changes of course but is still present....

And the complain about the left wing controlled media (we hear that in the Netherlands too) is complete nonsense. See the TV stations of Mediaset from Berlusconi. You can watch those stations-as much Italians do obviously- without being confronted with other media. Besides that youngsters don't watch TV stations any longer and on the net there are lots of channels unto the most obscure.

The real trouble I have with authoritarianism (either right-which is incredible stronger than the left wing variant nowadays), in the Putin, Orban, or Meloni variant is that they are in essence anti-plurality and anti-democratic.

And the thing is not Eurocrat bashing but the European front against types as Putin, until recent large parts of extreme right were in the pocket of Putin, even funded by him.

@Northener,


I don't think it's appropriate to test the democratic information level starting from private TVs (where, by the way, it would also be legitimate for the 'owner' to impose his own political line, the money is his and he does what he wants with it. Berlusconi, moreover, is a case in point, given that his editorial offices are full of left-wing signatures, from Enrico Mentana in the past to Barbara Palombelli in recent years).


The litmus test of the democratic information system is the public TV, which is subsidised by a compulsory fee from the citizens, so these broadcasters should be representative of everyone. But italian RAI as a whole cannot be called right-wing. One of its three main historical channels, RAI 3 is known by the nickname TeleKabul, so blatant and Taliban-like is its left-wing partisanship. It is a pity that it is also paid by those who perhaps think differently, so it is to be welcomed if there are channels like Berlusconi's to partly rebalance the situation (these are generalist television channels for which I personally am not crazy, but at least they are free. I say "partly rebalanced" situation, because there is also a private channel, LA7, backing up the left-wing broadcasters, so - to put it correctly - Berlusconi is in an inferior situation anyway). Btw: may I know which sources in the Netherlands paint such an anti-democratic situation on the right in Italy?

For now, the only effective authoritarianism I see applied by those who profess to be champions of justice and freedom: the left wing and Europe.
The former in Italy has been so pervasive that it has prevented the emergence of 'right-wingers' other than those of the MSI mould. Parties and groups of a vaguely 'liberal' right have been evanescent phenomena here. There has certainly been an original sin on the right, but in many ways the political history of republican Italy sees an evolution of the left that progressively engulfs other groupings until it becomes the current PD. After all, anything heterodox or not in line with the left automatically became and still becomes fascist. Not bad for someone who claims to defend pluralism. So we now have a stagnant swamp that preserves communist, ex-communist, socialist, Christian Democrat relics, but this marsh in turn needs another relic like the social right to oppose it and legitimise itself in an anti-fascist key. This is the enchanted record of the politicians of the last 70-80 years of history, other proposals or ideas are not forthcoming. Political appeasement has never been sought or really wanted, indeed I would say that the lack of appeasement has been functional to the survival of a certain left wing that now finds itself short of ideas in the face of problems bigger than itself. He who is the cause of his own ill, let him weep for himself.


As for a discourse on the European Union, I feel like shooting on the Red Cross. Another obscene bandwagon that has managed to concentrate the worst politics of the Old World, which when necessary is fugitive, while when it shows signs of existence it produces more harm than good (and those few benefits are for the use and consumption of a very small group of countries). Now the time has come to chastise Orban, who until proven otherwise was democratically elected at home, but is disliked by Europe's central chancelleries. I don't believe that the real motives lie in the state takeover of television stations or in the obligation to auscultate the heartbeat of the foetus for women contemplating abortion. These are fig leaves, pretexts: the EU overlooks far more messy issues (have you heard anything about the conflict between Armenia and Azerbaijan?).


Instead, I believe more concretely in a revenge towards a country that in the conflict between Russia and Ukraine has regulated itself differently and has not wanted to adhere uncritically to the anti-Russian sanctions that are instead strangling other European economies. In essence, Orban has made the European bureaucrats look like shit, he has set a dangerous precedent in the central power apparatus in Brussels (right or wrong, Orban's was an alternative course of action that has not even been considered elsewhere, looking after the Hungarian interests), and now the European Soviet with its one-for-one 'pluralism' needs to level out or even eliminate this anomaly as soon as possible.
Excuse me, but I see very little freedom in this whole business.


And on the illicit funds received by the superpowers, let there be clarity. But let's also have a good talk with the Italian PCI, or their PD heirs, who demonstrated good practice in the 1970s. Rubles didn't suck so much then...
 
Stuvane: Nice post. I will not comment much but I will ask one question, how is the EU "democratic". Can you tell me who elected those folks. Sounds very similar to me what the great English-Catholic writer G.K. Chesterton described as an "arrogant oligarchy".

Hi Palermo,


in fact, I'd like to know too. In general, I think the convinced democratic European voters - at least here in Italy - is someone who needs to feel "presentable" in the eyes of foreigners. One who needs to feel modern and international (but starts from purely provincial motivations and in fact will go to serve the provincial interests of others). And here we are connected to the woke "culture": atone for one's past, denying or hiding what one is or has been, the mental assumptions are the same
 

So begins the un-official start of the GOP primary, provided the story is true.

If so, wherever Trump, you had 4 years to make a difference, and you dropped the ball on the illegal immigration topic.

Abbott and DeSantis are brilliant in pointing out the hypocrisy of Democrats. If no human is illegal, and there is only benefits to having people come here unmitigated, than what is the issue? New York City, and Martha's Vineyard should be delighted to have them.

But that doesn't seem to be their attitude at all. Because the real reason why they want them in Texas and Florida is to flip those states Blue. They already have New York as consistently Democrat.
 
S3bvfcp.jpg


How tone deaf, and just plain stupid are some people in the media? NBC had compared illegal immigrants to trash, before deleting the tweet. I don't blame the people for trying to make a better life, but the Democrat politicians that use them as pawns to flip the electorate in red states are indeed trash.
 
@Northener,


I don't think it's appropriate to test the democratic information level starting from private TVs (where, by the way, it would also be legitimate for the 'owner' to impose his own political line, the money is his and he does what he wants with it. Berlusconi, moreover, is a case in point, given that his editorial offices are full of left-wing signatures, from Enrico Mentana in the past to Barbara Palombelli in recent years).


The litmus test of the democratic information system is the public TV, which is subsidised by a compulsory fee from the citizens, so these broadcasters should be representative of everyone. But italian RAI as a whole cannot be called right-wing. One of its three main historical channels, RAI 3 is known by the nickname TeleKabul, so blatant and Taliban-like is its left-wing partisanship. It is a pity that it is also paid by those who perhaps think differently, so it is to be welcomed if there are channels like Berlusconi's to partly rebalance the situation (these are generalist television channels for which I personally am not crazy, but at least they are free. I say "partly rebalanced" situation, because there is also a private channel, LA7, backing up the left-wing broadcasters, so - to put it correctly - Berlusconi is in an inferior situation anyway). Btw: may I know which sources in the Netherlands paint such an anti-democratic situation on the right in Italy?

For now, the only effective authoritarianism I see applied by those who profess to be champions of justice and freedom: the left wing and Europe.
The former in Italy has been so pervasive that it has prevented the emergence of 'right-wingers' other than those of the MSI mould. Parties and groups of a vaguely 'liberal' right have been evanescent phenomena here. There has certainly been an original sin on the right, but in many ways the political history of republican Italy sees an evolution of the left that progressively engulfs other groupings until it becomes the current PD. After all, anything heterodox or not in line with the left automatically became and still becomes fascist. Not bad for someone who claims to defend pluralism. So we now have a stagnant swamp that preserves communist, ex-communist, socialist, Christian Democrat relics, but this marsh in turn needs another relic like the social right to oppose it and legitimise itself in an anti-fascist key. This is the enchanted record of the politicians of the last 70-80 years of history, other proposals or ideas are not forthcoming. Political appeasement has never been sought or really wanted, indeed I would say that the lack of appeasement has been functional to the survival of a certain left wing that now finds itself short of ideas in the face of problems bigger than itself. He who is the cause of his own ill, let him weep for himself.


As for a discourse on the European Union, I feel like shooting on the Red Cross. Another obscene bandwagon that has managed to concentrate the worst politics of the Old World, which when necessary is fugitive, while when it shows signs of existence it produces more harm than good (and those few benefits are for the use and consumption of a very small group of countries). Now the time has come to chastise Orban, who until proven otherwise was democratically elected at home, but is disliked by Europe's central chancelleries. I don't believe that the real motives lie in the state takeover of television stations or in the obligation to auscultate the heartbeat of the foetus for women contemplating abortion. These are fig leaves, pretexts: the EU overlooks far more messy issues (have you heard anything about the conflict between Armenia and Azerbaijan?).


Instead, I believe more concretely in a revenge towards a country that in the conflict between Russia and Ukraine has regulated itself differently and has not wanted to adhere uncritically to the anti-Russian sanctions that are instead strangling other European economies. In essence, Orban has made the European bureaucrats look like shit, he has set a dangerous precedent in the central power apparatus in Brussels (right or wrong, Orban's was an alternative course of action that has not even been considered elsewhere, looking after the Hungarian interests), and now the European Soviet with its one-for-one 'pluralism' needs to level out or even eliminate this anomaly as soon as possible.
Excuse me, but I see very little freedom in this whole business.


And on the illicit funds received by the superpowers, let there be clarity. But let's also have a good talk with the Italian PCI, or their PD heirs, who demonstrated good practice in the 1970s. Rubles didn't suck so much then...

If Italy goes on a collision course in Europe and winks more at Orban and Putin, I would have no problem with Italy leaving the EU. I would see more in a smaller EU anyway. Italy is unstable, has a weak economy and a sky-high government debt. Why show solidarity if it is not mutual?
 
If Italy goes on a collision course in Europe and winks more at Orban and Putin, I would have no problem with Italy leaving the EU. I would see more in a smaller EU anyway. Italy is unstable, has a weak economy and a sky-high government debt. Why show solidarity if it is not mutual?

Better than being a vassal.
 
Better than being a vassal.

Yes but my statement was also for the sake of the discussion. I sincerely believe that Italy is one of the European founding members and is quit crucial.

The Euro is for countries like Germany and the Netherlands in fact to weak and for Italy too strong. So in fact Germany and the Netherlands have profit of it. And the gigantic debts of Italy are an heritage of the Italian Christian Democrats in the eighties....

I don't know an easy solution for it all (separate currencies how real is that?). And in fact is that the European economies are quit entangled.

Anyhow an Orban course is the worst thing that could happen. He is totally corrupt and the trias politica has gone down the toilet in Hungary. I'm no fan of EU bureaucracy but this would mean even worse.....
 
Last edited:
Yes but my statement was also for the sake of the discussion. I sincerely believe that Italy is one of the European founding members and is quit crucial.

The Euro is for countries like Germany and the Netherlands in fact to weak and for Italy too strong. So in fact Germany and the Netherlands have profit of it. And the gigantic debts of Italy are an heritage of the Italian Christian Democrats in the eighties....

I don't know an easy solution for it all (separate currencies how real is that?). And in fact is that the European economies are quit entangled.

Anyhow an Urban course is the worst thing that could happen. He is totally corrupt and the trias politica has gone down the toilet in Hungary. I'm no fan of EU bureaucracy but this would mean even worse.....

However, I am not sure if it is really a matter of economics. I think Italians feel like they are being inundated by legal, and illegal immigration.
 

This thread has been viewed 125206 times.

Back
Top