Politics "WOKE" America

[Stuvanè]

If Italy goes on a collision course in Europe and winks more at Orban and Putin, I would have no problem with Italy leaving the EU. I would see more in a smaller EU anyway. Italy is unstable, has a weak economy and a sky-high government debt. Why show solidarity if it is not mutual?

@Northener

The ultimate and original purpose of a State, whatever its structure - democratic or otherwise, or political orientation - is first and foremost to protect the physical and economic security of its inhabitants. They historically surrender a share of their possessions (in the form of taxes) and personal freedom precisely to have those protections extended to the whole community. The moment rulers derogate from these minimal but essential obligations, they put themselves in a position to be 1) challenged; 2) overthrown. In concrete terms, this means that first one must look after one's own internal interests, then possibly consider external aid to third parties.


If the EU is so ideologically conditioned as to distort this mechanism for the internal safeguarding and survival of States, jeopardising the economies of member states in order to prove itself more royal than the king in fighting Putin, don't expect a predictable beating. Never have we seen such crassness and international political unpreparedness. Putin may be committing crimes as if there were no tomorrow, but the palm for cluelessness in dealing with him is all in the West, which - between sanctions and uncritical Atlanticism - behaves like the cuckolded husband who castrates himself to spite his wife. Decisions dictated by stupidity and/or bad faith that certainly don't increase the fanclub of the EU and now the fear of the Eurocrats in the face of a minimum of critical voices is such that Meloni is already on the cross without having yet won the elections (if she ever wins them, it is not certain: for many of us - and I am among those - she is even too accommodating with certain international junk).


You say that you would not regret Italy's exit from the European Union because of its economic and political instability. Many Italians do too. But beyond the fact that it was one of the founding countries and its exit in this regard would be a not insignificant damage to its image and politics, I want to remind you that the Italians - unlike many other countries - have never been proposed a referendum on joining the Eurozone, someone else decided in our place, without asking us (and our entry into the Eurozone and all the subsequent measures that have gradually reduced our sovereignty have always had the endorsement and signature of your Italian and European left-wing political friends, let's not get too far off track).


Seeing then the words EU and solidarity in the same sentence are things that make my abs come back in laughter, so sesquipedal is this bullshit. Explain to me: is solidarity the solidarity of March two years ago, when we had become the only pests in the EU, and we were being pointed at and chased away as untors by Germany, France, Belgium..., when in the same countries Covid had already become an important guest? Or is it the more recent one of certain countries that, faced with the problem of gas speculation, oppose a cap on its price that has become stellar because it suits them? Where is that famous gas exchange where such nice little games are played? Help me, you who are informed....


Rest assured that if there is one place where nothing is ever given for nothing, it is Europe. I'll have you know that until 2020 Italy was one of the top 4 net contributors to the European shack: in practice we were paying out more money than the EU was giving back, and only with the PNRR and the related post-covid restructuring funds could the trend reverse, but I'm waiting to see the facts. If some countries give the impression that they want to help Italy, they certainly do not do so out of genuine charity and a sense of altruism. If other countries have not yet let us go or kicked us out of the EU, it is because the Italian boot is still too important from a historical and geopolitical point of view. Letting it collapse completely is not advantageous at the moment. But keeping it in a condition of political and economic subalternity is, on the other hand, a great pleasure: a space (or rather a closet) where illegal or unregulated migratory waves can swarm (cheap labour and a political reservoir of votes for the left), a space of first-rate manufacturing industries waiting to be put in trouble by inept rulers or sold to the highest foreign bidder, an unparalleled private savings waiting to be plundered with the most imaginative taxation. In essence - with all our objective flaws - we are still an appetising cash cow.


Do now some reflecting on why certain populisms that so terrify you ripen here and there, and every now and then look for some source other than the usual chatter of Letta, the PD and company singer

 

[Angela]

@Northener

The ultimate and original purpose of a State, whatever its structure - democratic or otherwise, or political orientation - is first and foremost to protect the physical and economic security of its inhabitants. They historically surrender a share of their possessions (in the form of taxes) and personal freedom precisely to have those protections extended to the whole community. The moment rulers derogate from these minimal but essential obligations, they put themselves in a position to be 1) challenged; 2) overthrown. In concrete terms, this means that first one must look after one's own internal interests, then possibly consider external aid to third parties.


If the EU is so ideologically conditioned as to distort this mechanism for the internal safeguarding and survival of States, jeopardising the economies of member states in order to prove itself more royal than the king in fighting Putin, don't expect a predictable beating. Never have we seen such crassness and international political unpreparedness. Putin may be committing crimes as if there were no tomorrow, but the palm for cluelessness in dealing with him is all in the West, which - between sanctions and uncritical Atlanticism - behaves like the cuckolded husband who castrates himself to spite his wife. Decisions dictated by stupidity and/or bad faith that certainly don't increase the fanclub of the EU and now the fear of the Eurocrats in the face of a minimum of critical voices is such that Meloni is already on the cross without having yet won the elections (if she ever wins them, it is not certain: for many of us - and I am among those - she is even too accommodating with certain international junk).


You say that you would not regret Italy's exit from the European Union because of its economic and political instability. Many Italians do too. But beyond the fact that it was one of the founding countries and its exit in this regard would be a not insignificant damage to its image and politics, I want to remind you that the Italians - unlike many other countries - have never been proposed a referendum on joining the Eurozone, someone else decided in our place, without asking us (and our entry into the Eurozone and all the subsequent measures that have gradually reduced our sovereignty have always had the endorsement and signature of your Italian and European left-wing political friends, let's not get too far off track).


Seeing then the words EU and solidarity in the same sentence are things that make my abs come back in laughter, so sesquipedal is this bullshit. Explain to me: is solidarity the solidarity of March two years ago, when we had become the only pests in the EU, and we were being pointed at and chased away as untors by Germany, France, Belgium..., when in the same countries Covid had already become an important guest? Or is it the more recent one of certain countries that, faced with the problem of gas speculation, oppose a cap on its price that has become stellar because it suits them? Where is that famous gas exchange where such nice little games are played? Help me, you who are informed....


Rest assured that if there is one place where nothing is ever given for nothing, it is Europe. I'll have you know that until 2020 Italy was one of the top 4 net contributors to the European shack: in practice we were paying out more money than the EU was giving back, and only with the PNRR and the related post-covid restructuring funds could the trend reverse, but I'm waiting to see the facts. If some countries give the impression that they want to help Italy, they certainly do not do so out of genuine charity and a sense of altruism. If other countries have not yet let us go or kicked us out of the EU, it is because the Italian boot is still too important from a historical and geopolitical point of view. Letting it collapse completely is not advantageous at the moment. But keeping it in a condition of political and economic subalternity is, on the other hand, a great pleasure: a space (or rather a closet) where illegal or unregulated migratory waves can swarm (cheap labour and a political reservoir of votes for the left), a space of first-rate manufacturing industries waiting to be put in trouble by inept rulers or sold to the highest foreign bidder, an unparalleled private savings waiting to be plundered with the most imaginative taxation. In essence - with all our objective flaws - we are still an appetising cash cow.


Do now some reflecting on why certain populisms that so terrify you ripen here and there, and every now and then look for some source other than the usual chatter of Letta, the PD and company singer

If I could give you 100 upvotes I would.

Finally, a realistic assessment of the relationship of Italy to this "European Union".

 

[Jovialis]

Climate change activist runs on the court at the Laver Cup and sets himself on fire (msn.com)

This didn't happen in America, but I recommend all woke activists set themselves on fire.

 

[Northener]

@Northener

The ultimate and original purpose of a State, whatever its structure - democratic or otherwise, or political orientation - is first and foremost to protect the physical and economic security of its inhabitants. They historically surrender a share of their possessions (in the form of taxes) and personal freedom precisely to have those protections extended to the whole community. The moment rulers derogate from these minimal but essential obligations, they put themselves in a position to be 1) challenged; 2) overthrown. In concrete terms, this means that first one must look after one's own internal interests, then possibly consider external aid to third parties.


If the EU is so ideologically conditioned as to distort this mechanism for the internal safeguarding and survival of States, jeopardising the economies of member states in order to prove itself more royal than the king in fighting Putin, don't expect a predictable beating. Never have we seen such crassness and international political unpreparedness. Putin may be committing crimes as if there were no tomorrow, but the palm for cluelessness in dealing with him is all in the West, which - between sanctions and uncritical Atlanticism - behaves like the cuckolded husband who castrates himself to spite his wife. Decisions dictated by stupidity and/or bad faith that certainly don't increase the fanclub of the EU and now the fear of the Eurocrats in the face of a minimum of critical voices is such that Meloni is already on the cross without having yet won the elections (if she ever wins them, it is not certain: for many of us - and I am among those - she is even too accommodating with certain international junk).


You say that you would not regret Italy's exit from the European Union because of its economic and political instability. Many Italians do too. But beyond the fact that it was one of the founding countries and its exit in this regard would be a not insignificant damage to its image and politics, I want to remind you that the Italians - unlike many other countries - have never been proposed a referendum on joining the Eurozone, someone else decided in our place, without asking us (and our entry into the Eurozone and all the subsequent measures that have gradually reduced our sovereignty have always had the endorsement and signature of your Italian and European left-wing political friends, let's not get too far off track).


Seeing then the words EU and solidarity in the same sentence are things that make my abs come back in laughter, so sesquipedal is this bullshit. Explain to me: is solidarity the solidarity of March two years ago, when we had become the only pests in the EU, and we were being pointed at and chased away as untors by Germany, France, Belgium..., when in the same countries Covid had already become an important guest? Or is it the more recent one of certain countries that, faced with the problem of gas speculation, oppose a cap on its price that has become stellar because it suits them? Where is that famous gas exchange where such nice little games are played? Help me, you who are informed....


Rest assured that if there is one place where nothing is ever given for nothing, it is Europe. I'll have you know that until 2020 Italy was one of the top 4 net contributors to the European shack: in practice we were paying out more money than the EU was giving back, and only with the PNRR and the related post-covid restructuring funds could the trend reverse, but I'm waiting to see the facts. If some countries give the impression that they want to help Italy, they certainly do not do so out of genuine charity and a sense of altruism. If other countries have not yet let us go or kicked us out of the EU, it is because the Italian boot is still too important from a historical and geopolitical point of view. Letting it collapse completely is not advantageous at the moment. But keeping it in a condition of political and economic subalternity is, on the other hand, a great pleasure: a space (or rather a closet) where illegal or unregulated migratory waves can swarm (cheap labour and a political reservoir of votes for the left), a space of first-rate manufacturing industries waiting to be put in trouble by inept rulers or sold to the highest foreign bidder, an unparalleled private savings waiting to be plundered with the most imaginative taxation. In essence - with all our objective flaws - we are still an appetising cash cow.


Do now some reflecting on why certain populisms that so terrify you ripen here and there, and every now and then look for some source other than the usual chatter of Letta, the PD and company singer

You say that you would not regret Italy's exit from the European Union because of its economic and political instability.

That's not what I said. I said :If Italy goes on a collision course in Europe and winks more at Orban and Putin, I would have no problem with Italy leaving the EU. I would see more in a smaller EU anyway. Italy is unstable, has a weak economy and a sky-high government debt. Why show solidarity if it is not mutual?

That's totally different. And in other postings I stated that Italy is one of the European founding fathers. And also that I can't find no reason why Northern Italy your region should be cut of from the rest of the Blue Banana and should orientate on Tirana.....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Banana

Nevertheless if the 'postmodern fascist' Meloni gets elected and is on a collision course and is winking to Putin why should the rest of the EU hang on to it.

At the same time I know that it's very destabilizing for Europe and specific Italy itself.

I don't get your passage about Putin, he is clearly on the loosing side, and completely lost touch with reality. The scene about Hitler when he was loosing the war could be also a scene in the Kremlin now:

That makes im pretty unpredictable now.....if Hitler had the red button in this case.....

Indeed the basic thing for a state is safety for the citizens but a democracy is more. I find Lefort always right in the case of communism and fascism, the 'place of politics has to be empty':
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claude_Lefort

But may be not your cup of tea.

 

[Duarte]

The fact is that the far right has been taking great heights in Europe: Portugal, France, Italy, Sweden. The economic moment has worried the common voter much more than the geopolitical interests of the superpowers. The bill to pay at the supermarket checkout and at the gas pump speaks louder.

 

[Jovialis]

The fact is that the far right has been taking great heights in Europe: Portugal, France, Italy, Sweden. The economic moment has worried the common voter much more than the geopolitical interests of the superpowers. The bill to pay at the supermarket checkout and at the gas pump speaks louder.

Thank you, here are remarks from the imbecile Biden:

[FONT=MercurySSm-Book-Pro_Web]So, for all those Republicans in Congress criticizing me today for high gas prices in America, are you now saying we were wrong to support Ukraine? Are you saying we were wrong to stand up to Putin? Are you saying that we would rather have lower gas prices in America and Putin’s iron fist in Europe? I don’t believe that.

[/FONT]https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/speeches-remarks/2022/06/22/remarks-by-president-biden-on-gas-prices-and-putins-price-hike/

https://news.gallup.com/poll/394190/gas-prices-squeezing-americans-rate-economy-poor.aspx

Joe Biden, the American people say you are a loser!

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/biden-approval-rating/

 

[Palermo Trapani]

@Palermo,

Sorry I haven't responded, I'm engaged in a multi-front battle against the Bolsheviks.

I think a lot of issues involving cheap labor and need to mass immigration will be alleviated by a deus ex machina. For example, I was just reading an article that explained in the next ten years 3D printing will be far more advanced, and will be able to produce many goods like clothing, that is currently facilitated by sweat shops.



Maybe they can start producing designer clothing in the first world again.

Yes, you are dealing with attacks on several fronts. But I trust in you leading the defenses!!!!

 

[Palermo Trapani]

Northerner: Did I miss something? Has Orban invaded another country?

 

[Northener]

Northerner: Did I miss something? Has Orban invaded another country?

You missed that he is corrupt as hell and neglects trias politica. But what the heck....

 

[Palermo Trapani]

Orban: And there are not corrupt politicians in other parts of Europe? Hungary perhaps does not have a 3 branch Constitutional system like the USA, Executive, Legislative and Judiciary. I agree. However, I see Orban as refusing to take directives from unelected EU bureaucrats in Brussels who want Hungary to play the migrant game that Brussels, Merkel's Germany, and the UN have been playing for the last 10 years. He wants no part of it.

That in the end if where the friction is between Orban and Brussels. I don't see the EU members states that are also NATO partners wanting to kick out Erdogan in Turkey.

 

[Northener]

Orban: And there are not corrupt politicians in other parts of Europe? Hungary perhaps does not have a 3 branch Constitutional system like the USA, Executive, Legislative and Judiciary. I agree. However, I see Orban as refusing to take directives from unelected EU bureaucrats in Brussels who want Hungary to play the migrant game that Brussels, Merkel's Germany, and the UN have been playing for the last 10 years. He wants no part of it.

That in the end if where the friction is between Orban and Brussels. I don't see the EU members states that are also NATO partners wanting to kick out Erdogan in Turkey.

Off course they are all corrupt Palermo, all of them... But some are more equal than others. Corruption is his trademark....

The independence of law and lawmakers is imo founding for a democracy, check and balances. Orban doesn't like checks and balances, so he likes to keep that out.

You can say it's the choice of the Hungarians, correct, but I reject those kind of politics. Basta.

At the same time, I also detest the frenzy, combined with conspiracy thinking, disgusting: a big witch's cauldron. Sometimes I also think that 'woke' - also here - is used as the communists did with their 'class enemy,' as a kind of prikdoll. Grow up!, is the only sigh I can make.

 

[Stuvanè]

That's not what I said. I said :If Italy goes on a collision course in Europe and winks more at Orban and Putin, I would have no problem with Italy leaving the EU. I would see more in a smaller EU anyway. Italy is unstable, has a weak economy and a sky-high government debt. Why show solidarity if it is not mutual?

That's totally different. And in other postings I stated that Italy is one of the European founding fathers. And also that I can't find no reason why Northern Italy your region should be cut of from the rest of the Blue Banana and should orientate on Tirana.....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Banana

Nevertheless if the 'postmodern fascist' Meloni gets elected and is on a collision course and is winking to Putin why should the rest of the EU hang on to it.

At the same time I know that it's very destabilizing for Europe and specific Italy itself.

I don't get your passage about Putin, he is clearly on the loosing side, and completely lost touch with reality. The scene about Hitler when he was loosing the war could be also a scene in the Kremlin now:

That makes im pretty unpredictable now.....if Hitler had the red button in this case.....

Indeed the basic thing for a state is safety for the citizens but a democracy is more. I find Lefort always right in the case of communism and fascism, the 'place of politics has to be empty':
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claude_Lefort

But may be not your cup of tea.

So the conclusion of this reasoning is what?
That it is only possible to govern if you please Brussels, despite local elections?


With regard to the Blue Banana, it is obvious that there is no interest in excluding northern Italy from it, since it is precisely one of the main reasons why the Peninsula has been tempting the trans-Alpines from the early Middle Ages to the present day. And it is obvious that it is in our interest to maintain relations with rich and dynamic regions, but with non-penalising regulations, those for which the EU is ecstatic (the list of such nonsense is endless, but if you really want a concrete example, go and see that idiotic 'Nutriscore', which in words wants to protect consumer health, but in fact cripples the Italian food industry).


What I mean to say about Putin is that if you want to wage war with a country the size of Russia - whether you are right or wrong - you have to have muscles like your enemy or more than him. This is not the case with the EU, which not only has muscles, but - more seriously - not even brains and wits. Did they think the matter would be over in a matter of days or weeks? That they were dealing with an unruly burg to be brought back into line by puffing out their chests? How long are they prepared to adopt these sanctions without counterbalancing their effects in some way, and whose concrete result so far is only to unhinge the economies of the countries adopting them? If they have not thought this through at the outset, they are either incapable and unfit for their role or they are in bad faith, the choice is yours.


Democracy and its defence conceived in a totally abstract manner leave time to be found. In the name of democracy and participation in a conflict in which the Eurocrats and Grandpa Biden have dragged us into, here we have companies closing without ever reopening and families going broke, so apart from the fact that 'democracy' is a variable geometry concept - and I understand that everyone has a different meaning in their head -, you have little use for the defence of its values if in the end you have nothing left to survive on. And this is almost always the case when ideology takes over from practical life, and in order to achieve an overly ambitious result, you end up jettisoning a reality that, however flawed, was working. The best is the enemy of the good.


I can very well agree with what Lefort writes or thinks, but in my opinion it is more appropriate for you to send that Wikipedia link and let Madame Ursula Von der Layen and her minions read it, especially the paragraph "Conception of democracy", since with certain countries and candidates it seems to me that Madame and her court regulate themselves quite differently.

 

[Palermo Trapani]

Stuvane: How do you think Italian voters are going to view Madame Ursula Von der Layen (EU President with a name that sounds like ties to the DAVOS crowd and European royal families and rich elites from the Central regions of Europe who think they run everything in Europe) who is lets call it what it is directly trying to interfere with a local election in Italy.

I repeat what I said, Italy's role in NATO is among the most important, if not most important given its geography, number of US forces stationed and in particular the NAVY presence which allows for the USA/NATO to project power across the Med from West to East. If the populist/right groups win, immediately they should form an alliance with all the Central to Eastern European countries in NATO in some sort of trade/energy pact. This would include everyone from Poland, to Italy including the Balkan countries that are pro NATO. You don't think the Czech Republic would want to be part of that given it shares a border with Germany. The EU is attacking Poland but what country in Europe fought against both Hitler's Germany and then struggled against Stalinist/Communist Russia. Who the hell is the EU to criticize Poland?

In Post #384, I have already documented that "Italy" provides naval bases for NATO that result in Italy having the 2nd most US forces stationed in Europe, save Germany, which the USA has been steadily downsizing. I will call attention to NATO spending per GDP. Italy is at 1.54. While I would hope to see Meloni/Salvini and the Center-Right coalition groups move to get that to 2% of GDP, Italy does provide its land and ports for the US Navy so Italy is still making more of a contribution than most of the EU oligarch countries (i.e., Germany, Macron-France, Belgium and Netherlands). The same heat of Europe region that has been running Europe for centuries. Belgium, Madame Ursula Von der Layen's home country spends 1.18% of GDP on NATO defense!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Lets look at Croatia (2.03%), Poland (2.42%), Estonia (2.34%), Greece (3.76%), Latvia (2.10%), Lithuania (2.36%), Romania (1.99%), Slovak Republic ( 2%) and then the UK (2.12%, USA can always count on those guys) and finally USA (3.76%)

https://www.nato.int/nato_static_fl2014/assets/pdf/2022/6/pdf/220627-def-exp-2022-en.pdf


So Italy needs to look East, I have always thought Italy and Greece should be natural allies. Greece is doing its part for NATO, as are the Central and Eastern EU countries. All of those countries need to get together and in a public show communicate via press, etc and remind the EU and the USA that these countries are doing their part for NATO security. Italy's agreement with the USA to allow America to basically put its European Fleet in Italian ports is enough for Italy to show its commitment to NATO, even though they are not hitting the 2% GDP number.

Another way for Italy (Meloni/Salvini) to work with Greece to improve relations with Turkey. The USA and Turkey have been working on a way to mend its relationship. See linked article. Turkey is buying lots of LNG gas from the USA (so getting Turkey away from Russian Gas). Erdogan wants to use that excess LNG to supply Greece and connect Italy with Greece on the other side of the Adriatic. Italy needs to get involved with that discussion with USA, Greece and Turkey.



https://news.yahoo.com/erdogan-says-turkey-wants-expand-104437970.html

So another pipeline linking Greece with Italy. Italy can send excess Gas from what it gets from the North African pipelines and Greece can then be a major distribution point for the Balkans, to Central Europe and link up with Eastern Europe. All of these countries can bypass countries from Germany to France and not deal with them.

https://en.populationdata.net/maps/africa-europe-gas-pipelines/

So Meloni, call the EU's bluff and partner with the Greeks, the Balkans countries, Central and Eastern Europeans.

The UK exited the EU and the sky did not fall. UK is still Americas most Loyal NATO partner (they meet the 2% of GDP and the the UK hosts the 3rd most US personnel behind Germany and Italy).

Sorry for the long post, but my American of Sicilian-Italian ancestry blood pressure sort of went through the roof after reading what the EU President said. That is election interference in the democratic process of a NATO allied country (one who does more than her home country of Belgium!).

Buona giornata and Vai Meloni

 

[Northener]

So the conclusion of this reasoning is what?
That it is only possible to govern if you please Brussels, despite local elections?


With regard to the Blue Banana, it is obvious that there is no interest in excluding northern Italy from it, since it is precisely one of the main reasons why the Peninsula has been tempting the trans-Alpines from the early Middle Ages to the present day. And it is obvious that it is in our interest to maintain relations with rich and dynamic regions, but with non-penalising regulations, those for which the EU is ecstatic (the list of such nonsense is endless, but if you really want a concrete example, go and see that idiotic 'Nutriscore', which in words wants to protect consumer health, but in fact cripples the Italian food industry).


What I mean to say about Putin is that if you want to wage war with a country the size of Russia - whether you are right or wrong - you have to have muscles like your enemy or more than him. This is not the case with the EU, which not only has muscles, but - more seriously - not even brains and wits. Did they think the matter would be over in a matter of days or weeks? That they were dealing with an unruly burg to be brought back into line by puffing out their chests? How long are they prepared to adopt these sanctions without counterbalancing their effects in some way, and whose concrete result so far is only to unhinge the economies of the countries adopting them? If they have not thought this through at the outset, they are either incapable and unfit for their role or they are in bad faith, the choice is yours.


Democracy and its defence conceived in a totally abstract manner leave time to be found. In the name of democracy and participation in a conflict in which the Eurocrats and Grandpa Biden have dragged us into, here we have companies closing without ever reopening and families going broke, so apart from the fact that 'democracy' is a variable geometry concept - and I understand that everyone has a different meaning in their head -, you have little use for the defence of its values if in the end you have nothing left to survive on. And this is almost always the case when ideology takes over from practical life, and in order to achieve an overly ambitious result, you end up jettisoning a reality that, however flawed, was working. The best is the enemy of the good.


I can very well agree with what Lefort writes or thinks, but in my opinion it is more appropriate for you to send that Wikipedia link and let Madame Ursula Von der Layen and her minions read it, especially the paragraph "Conception of democracy", since with certain countries and candidates it seems to me that Madame and her court regulate themselves quite differently.

Indeed no conclusion. Partly practically because I was too tired and not sharp enough to draw a conclusion. Besides that I think I can't draw conclusions. I have the feeling that I have a correspondence with someone who has definitely another worldview, nevertheless with a quit calm tone...

My personal experiences with Brussel the EU are sort. I did a job(not for long) for the University and had some meeting in Brussel. Pfff I don't fit in that technocratic bubble. I'm too hard mouthed and in general I don't fit in that Brussel technocrat picture...I'm more into local, regional, national an in fact international political things. The EU never drew really my attention. May be to short sighted from me because it's certainly a factor (indeed take the food regulations etc). But the passion for that fails. So may be I'm not quit the person to function as a kind of 'EU spokesman'.

The thing that I find important is that we lived after ww2 (apart from the Balkan) for about 75 years in peace and prosperity. That's really a core thing. Until Putin invaded the Ukraine. To forcible his czarist dreams, or Rus dreams (Kyiv as starting point etc). All exaggerated things because in fact the decline of the SU. Putin staid the KGB man he ever was, but now mixed with Eastern Orthodox and ultra nationalist visions. Now the invasion of the Ukraine, initial aimed for a few days, is going to be a debacle. And the 'brother folk' is terrorized, raped, tortured. And from fare away -stan boys are delivered as cannon fodder.

I don't think the EU ought to be a factor in this, at least not as a warmachine, it was never build as a state with an army etc. I really think the Germans have to be on track again. Are the Italians, Dutch, French ready to accept this? Until then the NATO is still in position for this, it's no coincidence Finland and Sweden want to join it! I don't have much trouble with the US. Unless they still continue to choose president that functions as unguided projectile, leaving top state secrets lying around in private homes and having conducted 4000 trials in 30 years...idiotic. Prudence, prudence, prudence!

Grandpa Biden has also clearly had his day (which includes that man wanting to choose another four years). But Putin has repeatedly indicated that he sees a formidable opponent in him. He is one of the most eloquent politicians in foreign affairs. He did not allow himself to be reared in the Ukraine crisis (directed by a department or not). What do you think he did wrong for the Ukraine?

And for the blue-banana you gave to the interests of others, but what is the importance of Northern Italy in this matter? What's the point of drawing borders against other parts of the European economic core area? What do you think of the Palermo ideas to focus Italy completely on the Balkans? Is that glorious future there?

 

[Duarte]

@PT
I don't know what Stuvanè thinks, but I'll say what I think. She thinks she is an important head of state and has not realized the United States of Europe does not exist. The state she thinks she represents does not exist and she is simply a pathetic mimicry of Ms. Thatcher. Does anyone remember the Erdoğan’s couch? They say it was a gaffe by the Turkish president, but I think he did it on purpose.

 

[Angela]

She's another Davos puppet, and should learn to keep her mouth shut about affairs that don't concern her.

 

[Stuvanè]

@PT
I don't know what Stuvanè thinks, but I'll say what I think. She thinks she is an important head of state and has not realized the United States of Europe does not exist. The state she thinks she represents does not exist and she is simply a pathetic mimicry of Ms. Thatcher. Does anyone remember the Erdoğan’s couch? They say it was a gaffe by the Turkish president, but I think he did it on purpose.

@Duarte

perfect portrait, you are breaking down an open door. I couldn't have found better words.

 

[Stuvanè]

Stuvane: How do you think Italian voters are going to view Madame Ursula Von der Layen (EU President with a name that sounds like ties to the DAVOS crowd and European royal families and rich elites from the Central regions of Europe who think they run everything in Europe) who is lets call it what it is directly trying to interfere with a local election in Italy.

I repeat what I said, Italy's role in NATO is among the most important, if not most important given its geography, number of US forces stationed and in particular the NAVY presence which allows for the USA/NATO to project power across the Med from West to East. If the populist/right groups win, immediately they should form an alliance with all the Central to Eastern European countries in NATO in some sort of trade/energy pact. This would include everyone from Poland, to Italy including the Balkan countries that are pro NATO. You don't think the Czech Republic would want to be part of that given it shares a border with Germany. The EU is attacking Poland but what country in Europe fought against both Hitler's Germany and then struggled against Stalinist/Communist Russia. Who the hell is the EU to criticize Poland?

In Post #384, I have already documented that "Italy" provides naval bases for NATO that result in Italy having the 2nd most US forces stationed in Europe, save Germany, which the USA has been steadily downsizing. I will call attention to NATO spending per GDP. Italy is at 1.54. While I would hope to see Meloni/Salvini and the Center-Right coalition groups move to get that to 2% of GDP, Italy does provide its land and ports for the US Navy so Italy is still making more of a contribution than most of the EU oligarch countries (i.e., Germany, Macron-France, Belgium and Netherlands). The same heat of Europe region that has been running Europe for centuries. Belgium, Madame Ursula Von der Layen's home country spends 1.18% of GDP on NATO defense!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Lets look at Croatia (2.03%), Poland (2.42%), Estonia (2.34%), Greece (3.76%), Latvia (2.10%), Lithuania (2.36%), Romania (1.99%), Slovak Republic ( 2%) and then the UK (2.12%, USA can always count on those guys) and finally USA (3.76%)

https://www.nato.int/nato_static_fl2014/assets/pdf/2022/6/pdf/220627-def-exp-2022-en.pdf


So Italy needs to look East, I have always thought Italy and Greece should be natural allies. Greece is doing its part for NATO, as are the Central and Eastern EU countries. All of those countries need to get together and in a public show communicate via press, etc and remind the EU and the USA that these countries are doing their part for NATO security. Italy's agreement with the USA to allow America to basically put its European Fleet in Italian ports is enough for Italy to show its commitment to NATO, even though they are not hitting the 2% GDP number.

Another way for Italy (Meloni/Salvini) to work with Greece to improve relations with Turkey. The USA and Turkey have been working on a way to mend its relationship. See linked article. Turkey is buying lots of LNG gas from the USA (so getting Turkey away from Russian Gas). Erdogan wants to use that excess LNG to supply Greece and connect Italy with Greece on the other side of the Adriatic. Italy needs to get involved with that discussion with USA, Greece and Turkey.



https://news.yahoo.com/erdogan-says-turkey-wants-expand-104437970.html

So another pipeline linking Greece with Italy. Italy can send excess Gas from what it gets from the North African pipelines and Greece can then be a major distribution point for the Balkans, to Central Europe and link up with Eastern Europe. All of these countries can bypass countries from Germany to France and not deal with them.

https://en.populationdata.net/maps/africa-europe-gas-pipelines/

So Meloni, call the EU's bluff and partner with the Greeks, the Balkans countries, Central and Eastern Europeans.

The UK exited the EU and the sky did not fall. UK is still Americas most Loyal NATO partner (they meet the 2% of GDP and the the UK hosts the 3rd most US personnel behind Germany and Italy).

Sorry for the long post, but my American of Sicilian-Italian ancestry blood pressure sort of went through the roof after reading what the EU President said. That is election interference in the democratic process of a NATO allied country (one who does more than her home country of Belgium!).

Buona giornata and Vai Meloni

@Palermo

The President of the European Commission (current von der Layen) and the President of the European Council (current Michel), who are the highest offices in the EU, are elected by a so-called 'qualified majority' by the European Council (consisting of the heads of state/government of the EU member states). In turn, the Council must or should take into account the indications or guidelines of the European Parliament, which in this chain is the only link that is actually elected by the European citizens.


In practice it's a model closer to a parliamentary republic (as in Italy, with all its disadvantages), than to a presidential republic. Now you realise that with all these intermediate steps, the degree of representativeness of these institutions with respect to the voters is minimal, and the margins of discretion in taking certain decisions is very wide and evidently influenceable or conditionable by extra-parliamentary forces or power groups well described by Angela. With all due respect to democracy that we want to teach around the world.


Of course they do not say this to our faces, but since a politician is ultimately judged not by what he says but by what he does (or does not do), it is a fact that the real levers of power now lie outside the European Parliament. It's true that the European Union started out as a community with economic purposes (which in itself has its limits), but at least in the beginning there were the public economies of the member states. Now it responds much more to the financial speculations of a few narrow oligarchies, more or less camouflaged. European parliamentarians either no longer have the competence/ability to stem this situation and restore politics to its true primacy, or they are colluding with it.


I largely agree with what you say about Italy's role within NATO and its ability to influence or operate in synergy with the countries of the Mediterranean and Balkan and Central and Eastern Europe. If Italy makes a field choice towards the West, its being a NATO member is a role that should obviously be much more valued and exploited, or made to count as a bargaining chip to favour certain of our national interests. For geographical, historical and cultural reasons, Italy could well lend itself to the role of mediator.

But in practice, I see this as much less feasible, in the sense that every time Italy has taken initiatives to carve out a space of its own - for example with regard to its own energy and/or commercial independence - it has almost always been hindered, not to say gambled away by 'friendly' fire. There are levels of "deep state" on both sides of the Atlantic that don't look favourably on what you propose.

This is a novel composed of various chapters, from the never-explained and highly suspicious death of a man like Enrico Mattei - whose projects, had they been completed, would have radically and positively changed our history - to the overthrow of Gaddafi in Libya, a questionable figure as long as you like, with whom, however, instruments were being sketched out both to stem uncontrolled immigration from Africa and to open or strengthen new channels for our energy supply.
This evidently did not please certain Atlantic/Western forces that preferred more oppositional policies, Gaddafi was bombed with means from our own bases - making us look shameful from a diplomatic point of view - and the rest is the history of today, with that area of North Africa becoming yet another powder keg of conflict and a zone of international confrontation.

The impression of being almost always useful idiots - good just because we occupy Europe's main maritime 'pier' - remains, with a lot of bitterness in our mouths and a lot of distrust for what is suggested (and more often imposed) on us from abroad.


We'll see what happens, but I'm under no illusions

 

[Angela]

@Palermo

The President of the European Commission (current von der Layen) and the President of the European Council (current Michel), who are the highest offices in the EU, are elected by a so-called 'qualified majority' by the European Council (consisting of the heads of state/government of the EU member states). In turn, the Council must or should take into account the indications or guidelines of the European Parliament, which in this chain is the only link that is actually elected by the European citizens.


In practice it's a model closer to a parliamentary republic (as in Italy, with all its disadvantages), than to a presidential republic. Now you realise that with all these intermediate steps, the degree of representativeness of these institutions with respect to the voters is minimal, and the margins of discretion in taking certain decisions is very wide and evidently influenceable or conditionable by extra-parliamentary forces or power groups well described by Angela. With all due respect to democracy that we want to teach around the world.


Of course they do not say this to our faces, but since a politician is ultimately judged not by what he says but by what he does (or does not do), it is a fact that the real levers of power now lie outside the European Parliament. It's true that the European Union started out as a community with economic purposes (which in itself has its limits), but at least in the beginning there were the public economies of the member states. Now it responds much more to the financial speculations of a few narrow oligarchies, more or less camouflaged. European parliamentarians either no longer have the competence/ability to stem this situation and restore politics to its true primacy, or they are colluding with it.


I largely agree with what you say about Italy's role within NATO and its ability to influence or operate in synergy with the countries of the Mediterranean and Balkan and Central and Eastern Europe. If Italy makes a field choice towards the West, its being a NATO member is a role that should obviously be much more valued and exploited, or made to count as a bargaining chip to favour certain of our national interests. For geographical, historical and cultural reasons, Italy could well lend itself to the role of mediator.

But in practice, I see this as much less feasible, in the sense that every time Italy has taken initiatives to carve out a space of its own - for example with regard to its own energy and/or commercial independence - it has almost always been hindered, not to say gambled away by 'friendly' fire. There are levels of "deep state" on both sides of the Atlantic that don't look favourably on what you propose.

This is a novel composed of various chapters, from the never-explained and highly suspicious death of a man like Enrico Mattei - whose projects, had they been completed, would have radically and positively changed our history - to the overthrow of Gaddafi in Libya, a questionable figure as long as you like, with whom, however, instruments were being sketched out both to stem uncontrolled immigration from Africa and to open or strengthen new channels for our energy supply.
This evidently did not please certain Atlantic/Western forces that preferred more oppositional policies, Gaddafi was bombed with means from our own bases - making us look shameful from a diplomatic point of view - and the rest is the history of today, with that area of North Africa becoming yet another powder keg of conflict and a zone of international confrontation.

The impression of being almost always useful idiots - good just because we occupy Europe's main maritime 'pier' - remains, with a lot of bitterness in our mouths and a lot of distrust for what is suggested (and more often imposed) on us from abroad.


We'll see what happens, but I'm under no illusions

Brilliantly argued and elegantly expressed, Stuvane.

 

[Palermo Trapani]

Stuvane:

Thanks for the explanation on exactly how the EU representatives and President are selected.

As for the Gaddafi removal, I have always questioned the wisdom in that one. He was a problem during the Reagan era, Reagan sent a few cruise missiles after him (did not try to put boots on the ground and due regime change, the Bush policy) and Gaddafi stopped sponsoring terrorism and all of sudden the Obama-Biden, and you can add Hillary Clinton (Secretary of State) decide to work with certain EU member states to take him out. Italy was working with a energy deal with Gaddafi in exchange for him to work with Italy to stop illegal migration. Italy acting that way was not what the Germans wanted (they of course were working with Russia to get Gas from Putin at the time and were in large part why the EU got so dependent on Russian Oil and Gas).

Gaddafi was pushing for pan-Africanism and his ties to the likes of Fidel Castro, Chavez in Venezuela, etc and others did not help his image with the USA and EU member states. The problem is the devil you know is often better than the devil you don't know. He had long ago stopped funding terrorism. Sub-Saharan African countries, many former colonies of Western Europe powers, saw him as an ally in that he was pushing for a pan-Africanism where they worked to control their own resources that were shipped to Europe. I often wonder if toppling Gaddafi is part of the motivation for sub-Saharan African countries to look to forming economic/trade partnerships with China. Now China is not doing this for charitable reasons, they have their own strategic interest in everything they do, but with the Chinese, the trade/economic partnerships are purely transactional. China is not going meddle in the internal affairs of sub-Saharan Africa and they are going to expect those countries to not criticize China at the UN. It is purely and economic relationship/partnership.

As for Italy strengthening Gas supplies with Gaddafi and the rest of North Africa, well here we are now and what are European Countries doing, they are working to increase Gas flows from the North African Trans European pipelines, which is what Italy was working to do directly with Gaddafi 11 years ago before his death in 2011. I just saw an agreement that Morocco and Algeria I think agreed to let Nigeria send more gas resources though the Pipeline with Spain.

President Obama, who I voted against twice, has said his worst mistake was failing to plan what would happen after taking out Gaddafi (which ultimately suggest Obama-Biden-Clinton were ultimately behind this with cooperation with the Big 3 EU powers at the time, UK, France and Germany). I give Obama credit for admitting that regime change, even if the leader is an SOB, results in more problems post regime change. I have still not yet seen Bush 2 admit mistakes about his regime change policies.