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Thread: Using 'Eupedia Ancient Ethnicities Checker' on modern and ancient populations

  1. #1
    Satyavrata Maciamo's Avatar
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    5 members found this post helpful.

    Post Using 'Eupedia Ancient Ethnicities Checker' on modern and ancient populations

    I did a little experiment to assess the reliability of the new Eupedia Ancient Ethnicities Checker. I ran a few modals against the rest of them to see what wed get. For example:

    The best match for Latins is: 2.49966694 25.80% Mycenaean_Greece_(n=4) + 74.20% Early_Bronze_Age_Southern_France_(n=5)

    Another good match is:
    3.68241297 33.20% Early_Neolithic_Italy_(n=10) + 66.80% Middle-Late_Bronze_Age_Hungary_(n=6)

    Sounds about right. The Hallstatt culture is not included yet, so close alternatives are Bronze Age Southern France and Hungary, on either side of the Alps. The indigenous population of Chalcolithic Italy with whom the Italic tribes mixed would have been close to Neolithic Italians or LBA Greeks.

    For Iron Age Gauls/Belgae, we get (excluding later ethnicities like the Lombards):

    1.28658654 23.60% Middle_Neolithic_France_(n=19) + 76.40% Bell_Beaker_Germany_(n=24)
    1.57798982 78.80% Bell_Beaker_Germany_(n=24) + 21.20% Nuragic_Sardinia_(n=13)
    1.65099485 20.00% Middle_Neolithic_Sardinia_(n=10) + 80.00% Bell_Beaker_Germany_(n=24)
    1.77197350 24.00% Late_Neolithic_Switzerland_(n=58) + 76.00% Bell_Beaker_Germany_(n=24)

    Every time Bell Beaker Germany + a Neolithic population from France or nearby. That's exactly what happened.

    The closest (unmixed) populations are:

    3.35393798 Middle_Bronze_Age_North_Alps_(n=7)
    4.55172495 Early_Bronze_Age_Swabia_(n=24)

    It points at the Hallstatt and La Tène origin of the Gauls in the northern Alps. Couldn't be better.


    For the Suebi/Alemanni, some interesting matches include:

    2.83544626 27.40% Megalithic_Europe_(n=24) + 72.60% Corded_Ware_culture_(n=22)
    2.91822266 66.80% Bell_Beaker_Gaul_(n=13) + 33.20% Corded_Ware_culture_(n=22)
    2.96852856 39.60% Corded_Ware_culture_(n=22) + 60.40% Early_Bronze_Age_Swabia_(n=24)
    3.17133247 72.60% Bell_Beaker_Germany_(n=24) + 27.40% Bell_Beaker_Netherlands_(n=7)

    Germanic tribes have their origins in a merger of the Corded Ware (R1a-dominant) and Bell Beaker (R1b-dominant) cultures. They both overran the cultures of Megalithic Europe, which included Megalithic Scandinavia and NW Germany.

    The Anglo-Saxons' best match is:

    2.07965895 24.60% MN_Westphalia_(Megalithic_Wartberg)_(n=6) + 75.40% Bell_Beaker_Netherlands_(n=7)

    Once again, excellent match. Megalithic NW Germany + BB Netherlands are the closest geographically to the Neolithic + Bell Beaker blend.
    Last edited by Maciamo; 17-03-21 at 16:17.
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  2. #2
    Satyavrata Maciamo's Avatar
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    I have run a few modern populations to see if their main ancestry can be correctly predicted.

    Modern Italians

    Italians from the Aosta Valley

    1.24548268 38.40% Bell_Beaker_Gaul_(n=13) + 61.60% Villanovans_(n=2)
    1.31631744 40.40% Early_Bronze_Age_Swabia_(n=24) + 59.60% Villanovans_(n=2)

    Villanovan could be a proxy for Proto-Italic, while BB Gaul and EBA Swabia is Proto-Italo-Celtic.

    Italians from Lombardy

    1.74138433 41.80% Mycenaean_Greece_(n=4) + 58.20% Gauls_Belgae_(n=16)
    1.79016272 47.00% Early_Neolithic_Greece_(n=3) + 53.00% Lombards_(n=28)

    Lombardy is a bit too complex for a two-way mix, as it has substantial Germanic ancestry in addition to Italo-Celtic and Neolithic Italian.

    Italians from Tuscany

    1.25566841 42.40% Bell_Beaker_Netherlands_(n=7) + 57.60% Minoan_Greece_(n=10)
    1.77406627 55.20% Minoan_Greece_(n=10) + 44.80% Early_Bronze_Age_Britain_(n=28)
    1.78028919 44.20% Bell_Beaker_Britain_(n=27) + 55.80% Minoan_Greece_(n=10)
    1.81657546 49.20% Bell_Beaker_Germany_(n=24) + 50.80% Minoan_Greece_(n=10)

    About 50-58% Greek (or Neolithic Italian) and 42-50% Proto-Italo-Celtic Bell Beaker.

    Italians from Lazio

    0.80507759 67.20% Italian_Greeks_(n=2) + 32.80% Gauls_Belgae_(n=16)
    0.95779487 32.80% Middle_Bronze_Age_North_Alps_(n=7) + 67.20% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)
    1.19525269 30.00% Early_Bronze_Age_Swabia_(n=24) + 70.00% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)

    Italians from Campania

    0.83756398 10.20% Middle_Bronze_Age_North_Alps_(n=7) + 89.80% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)
    0.94078087 89.80% Italian_Greeks_(n=2) + 10.20% Gauls_Belgae_(n=16)

    Gauls and North Alpine Bronze Age both point to the origins of Italic tribes around the Alps in the Late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age. In summary, the ratio of Italo-Celtic to Greek/Neolithic Italy is about 55-45% in Lombardy, 45-55% in Tuscany, 33-67% in Lazio and 10-90% in Campania.

    Italians from Sicily

    1.91757944 91.00% Italian_Greeks_(n=2) + 9.00% Suebi_Alemmani_(n=20)
    1.96558562 8.40% Early_Bronze_Age_Britain_(n=28) + 91.60% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)
    1.97000730 8.20% Bell_Beaker_Britain_(n=27) + 91.80% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)
    2.00046584 7.80% Bell_Beaker_Netherlands_(n=7) + 92.20% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)

    8-9% of Suebi, British or Dutch surely comes from the Normans. The rest is essentially Greek.


    Modern Iberians

    Spanish Basques

    3.33918776 67.80% Bell_Beaker_Iberia_(n=11) + 32.20% Bell_Beaker_Britain_(n=27)
    3.48324870 70.40% Bell_Beaker_Iberia_(n=11) + 29.60% Bell_Beaker_Netherlands_(n=7)
    3.60106371 67.80% Bell_Beaker_Iberia_(n=11) + 32.20% Early_Bronze_Age_Britain_(n=28)

    Mostly Bell Beaker ancestry, although predominantly Iberian BB, which is overwhelmingly or Neolithic/Megalithic descent.

    Spaniards from Castilla y Léon

    1.72692611 25.80% Early_Bronze_Age_Iberia_(n=7) + 74.20% Medieval_Catalonia_Valencia_(n=9)
    1.91729030 24.00% Middle-Late_Bronze_Age_Spain_(n=38) + 76.00% Medieval_Catalonia_Valencia_(n=9)
    1.92675819 13.40% Chalcolithic_Iberia_(n=59) + 86.60% Medieval_Catalonia_Valencia_(n=9)

    Portuguese

    1.89758746 19.20% Iron_Age_Iberia_(n=22) + 80.80% Roman_&_Visigothic_Iberia_(n=31)
    1.99077619 4.80% Early_Medieval_Canaries_(n=5) + 95.20% Medieval_Catalonia_Valencia_(n=9)


    Modern Greeks

    Greeks from Athens

    2.93584010 14.00% Balkans_HG_(n=43) + 86.00% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)
    2.94172916 12.80% Baltic_Scandinavia_(SHG)_(n=31) + 87.20% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)
    2.97474780 85.00% Italian_Greeks_(n=2) + 15.00% Iron_Age_Estonia_(n=8)
    3.02535154 13.80% Bronze_Age_Estonia_(n=16) + 86.20% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)
    3.09365310 12.40% Neolithic_Ukraine_(n=12) + 87.60% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)

    About 85-88% of ancient Greek ancestry with 12-15% of Baltic/Eastern European (almost certainly from the Early Slavs, who are not included yet).

    Greeks from Macedonia

    3.38052774 67.60% Italian_Greeks_(n=2) + 32.40% Iron_Age_Estonia_(n=8)
    3.51659757 66.20% Italian_Greeks_(n=2) + 33.80% Medieval_Estonia_(n=7)

    Ditto, but with higher Balto-Slavic ancestry (33%).

    Greeks from Crete

    3.05178251 13.80% Maykop_culture_(n=16) + 86.20% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)
    3.31613113 11.60% Chalcolithic_Caucasus_(n=3) + 88.40% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)
    3.53810755 14.20% Kura-Araxes_culture_(n=9) + 85.80% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)

    No Balto-Slavic ancestry in Cretans, but extra Caucasian instead. I have long postulated that Minoan Greeks had partial ancestry from the Kura-Araxes culture.


    Modern Germans

    1.08558423 10.20% Minoan_Greece_(n=10) + 89.80% Unetice_culture_(n=18)
    1.11735502 88.00% Unetice_culture_(n=18) + 12.00% Mycenaean_Greece_(n=4)
    1.18133247 10.40% Early_Neolithic_Greece_(n=3) + 89.60% Unetice_culture_(n=18)

    Slightly unexpected. 89% Unetice with 11% of ancient Greek. I suppose that it is in fact the long Roman presence in western and southern Germany that brought the Greek/South Italian ancestry in the region.


    Modern Dutch

    1.26482821 44.00% Corded_Ware_culture_(n=22) + 56.00% Middle-Late_Bronze_Age_Hungary_(n=6)
    1.32153768 52.60% Corded_Ware_culture_(n=22) + 47.40% Early_Bronze_Age_Southern_France_(n=5)
    1.37042011 49.40% Unetice_culture_(n=18) + 50.60% Middle_Bronze_Age_North_Alps_(n=7)

    Essentially a blend of R1a Corded Ware with R1b from Proto-Celtic Central Europe (Hungary, Alps) or Gaul.


    Modern Belgians

    0.58577815 16.60% Early_Neolithic_Italy_(n=10) + 83.40% Lombards_(n=28)
    0.63450899 17.80% Middle_Chalcolithic_Hungary_(n=9) + 82.20% Lombards_(n=28)
    0.70644507 16.00% Early_Neolithic_France_(n=4) + 84.00% Lombards_(n=28)
    0.73020591 17.40% Middle_Neolithic_Sicily_(n=10) + 82.60% Lombards_(n=28)
    0.85389886 18.80% Late_Chalcolithic_Baden_culture_(n=14) + 81.20% Lombards_(n=28)
    0.85440170 17.80% EN_Alfold_Linear_Pottery_culture_(n=20) + 82.20% Lombards_(n=28)
    0.93023428 17.20% LN_Lengyel_culture_(n=8) + 82.80% Lombards_(n=28)
    0.97070950 17.00% LN_Tisza-Sopot_culture_(n=11) + 83.00% Lombards_(n=28)
    1.14870166 16.20% EN_LBK_culture_(n=43) + 83.80% Lombards_(n=28)

    Lots of similar estimates, all with 82-84% Lombard (West Germanic proxy) with an additional 16-18% of Neolithic ancestry.


    Modern French

    Southwest French

    1.13629604 43.20% Bell_Beaker_Iberia_(n=11) + 56.80% Early_Bronze_Age_Swabia_(n=24)
    1.27682508 47.20% Bell_Beaker_Iberia_(n=11) + 52.80% Bell_Beaker_Gaul_(n=13)
    1.45519287 45.60% Chalcolithic_Iberia_(n=59) + 54.40% Early_Bronze_Age_Swabia_(n=24)

    43-47% BB or Chalcolithic Iberia with 53-57% of Alpine Celtic/Gaulish.


    Modern English

    South English

    1.44898982 43.80% Early_Bronze_Age_Swabia_(n=24) + 56.20% Lombards_(n=28)
    1.44988624 62.40% Bell_Beaker_Netherlands_(n=7) + 37.60% Early_Bronze_Age_Southern_France_(n=5)
    1.53512926 63.20% Bell_Beaker_Britain_(n=27) + 36.80% Middle-Late_Bronze_Age_Hungary_(n=6)
    1.56973724 75.00% Middle_Bronze_Age_Britain_(n=22) + 25.00% Middle-Late_Bronze_Age_Hungary_(n=6)
    1.60591969 65.40% Early_Bronze_Age_Britain_(n=28) + 34.60% Middle-Late_Bronze_Age_Hungary_(n=6)

    EBA Swabia and MLBA Hungary are both close proxies to Hallstatt Celts, who colonised Gaul, Britain and NW Iberia. The Lombards are ethnically close to the Anglo-Saxons. The first estimate would give 44% Celtic and 56% Germanic ancestry, but it's actually quite difficult to assess properly as Proto-Celts and Proto-Germanics were relatively similar.


    Modern Irish

    1.98743466 13.20% MN_Westphalia_(Megalithic_Wartberg)_(n=6) + 86.80% Middle_Bronze_Age_Britain_(n=22)
    2.15216721 78.20% Bell_Beaker_Britain_(n=27) + 21.80% Early_Bronze_Age_Southern_France_(n=5)
    2.21442809 6.80% Globular_Amphora_culture_(n=6) + 93.20% Middle_Bronze_Age_Britain_(n=22)
    2.21652250 5.80% Bell_Beaker_Iberia_(n=11) + 94.20% Middle_Bronze_Age_Britain_(n=22)

    Bell Beaker or Bronze Age Britain with some extra Neolithic West European ancestry.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    I made a two-way model (Dodecad K12b) for modern Italians: Iron Age Italy and Italian Greeks. Iron Age Italy is the combination of all Iron Age samples from Italy (Latins, Etruscans, Villanovans).

    Southern Italy is predominantly Ancient Greek and Iron Age Italy ranges from to 26% to 3%, Central Italy (Marche, Latium) is half Iron Age Italy and half Greek. From Tuscany upwards Iron Age Italy is predominant and Italian Greek ranges from 24% to 3%. In the Italian Alps there seems to be an extra input of Central European ancestry (Friuli, Trentino, Aosta Valley and to a much lesser extent Veneto and Piedmont).


    Italian_Friuli_VG

    8.63834693 96.20% Iron_Age_Italy_(n=9) + 3.80% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)


    Italian_Trentino

    9.81171221 83.80% Iron_Age_Italy_(n=9) + 16.20% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)


    Italian_Aosta_Valley


    9.67365724 94.00% Iron_Age_Italy_(n=9) + 6.00% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)


    Italian_Veneto

    5.64463343 95.20% Iron_Age_Italy_(n=9) + 4.80% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)


    Italian_Lombardy

    2.74327779 97.00% Iron_Age_Italy_(n=9) + 3.00% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)


    Italian_Piedmont

    5.01524145 96.60% Iron_Age_Italy_(n=9) + 3.40% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)


    Italian_Liguria

    2.93306853 85.60% Iron_Age_Italy_(n=9) + 14.40% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)


    Italian_Emilia

    3.24133432 82.40% Iron_Age_Italy_(n=9) + 17.60% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)


    Italian_Romagna

    2.96459059 63.60% Iron_Age_Italy_(n=9) + 36.40% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)


    Italian_Tuscany


    2.98115887 75.40% Iron_Age_Italy_(n=9) + 24.60% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)


    Italian_Marche


    2.44168786 49.80% Iron_Age_Italy_(n=9) + 50.20% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)


    Italian_Lazio

    3.91432277 49.80% Iron_Age_Italy_(n=9) + 50.20% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)


    Italian_Abruzzo

    2.95584812 26.20% Iron_Age_Italy_(n=9) + 73.80% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)


    Italian_Campania

    1.38228087 15.80% Iron_Age_Italy_(n=9) + 84.20% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)


    Italian_Apulia

    5.36190973 20.00% Iron_Age_Italy_(n=9) + 80.00% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)


    Italian_Calabria

    1.48756179 3.60% Iron_Age_Italy_(n=9) + 96.40% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)


    Italian_Sicily

    3.07384805 14.60% Iron_Age_Italy_(n=9) + 85.40% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)

  4. #4
    Satyavrata Maciamo's Avatar
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Here is an analysis of the modern Balkans. The ancient Balkans were genetically similar to ancient Greece. What differentiate each modern ethnic group is the amount of Steppe and Slavic ancestry that were added since the Late Antiquity. Unfortunately I do not have Early Slavic samples yet, so the closest proxies appear to be Mesolithic Europeans and Bronze Age/Iron Age/Medieval Estonia. It will at least give a rough idea of the percentage of Slavic ancestry in each group.

    Note that I prefer to use the 'Mycenaean Greek' and 'Italian Greek' as proxy for ancient Greece (Antiquity) rather than the 'Minoan Greek', as it is chronologically closer and already includes the Steppe ancestry from the Catacomb culture that came with the Proto-Mycenaean invaders. For the Slavic ancestry, I give preference to Medieval Estonia, then IA Estonia, then BA Estonia and last to Mesolithic Europeans.

    Modern Albanians


    3.84908822 21.60% West_Europeans_(WHG)_(n=19) + 78.40% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)
    4.12423985 19.80% Balkans_HG_(n=43) + 80.20% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)
    4.47182323 29.20% East_Europeans_(EHG)_(n=10) + 70.80% Minoan_Greece_(n=10)
    4.57493695 21.80% East_Europeans_(EHG)_(n=10) + 78.20% Mycenaean_Greece_(n=4)
    4.62179883 73.00% Italian_Greeks_(n=2) + 27.00% Swedish_Vikings_(n=23)
    4.69283045 26.20% Unetice_culture_(n=18) + 73.80% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)
    4.75311407 78.20% Italian_Greeks_(n=2) + 21.80% Medieval_Estonia_(n=7)

    Albanians from Kosovo


    3.60836736 27.60% West_Europeans_(WHG)_(n=19) + 72.40% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)
    3.93050283 26.00% East_Europeans_(EHG)_(n=10) + 74.00% Mycenaean_Greece_(n=4)
    4.19596010 33.00% East_Europeans_(EHG)_(n=10) + 67.00% Minoan_Greece_(n=10)
    4.27918332 25.20% Balkans_HG_(n=43) + 74.80% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)
    4.40733193 65.20% Italian_Greeks_(n=2) + 34.80% Swedish_Vikings_(n=23)
    4.45984147 33.80% Unetice_culture_(n=18) + 66.20% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)
    4.53617127 71.20% Mycenaean_Greece_(n=4) + 28.80% Bronze_Age_Estonia_(n=16)
    4.55862432 63.80% Minoan_Greece_(n=10) + 36.20% Bronze_Age_Estonia_(n=16)
    4.61941714 68.80% Mycenaean_Greece_(n=4) + 31.20% Iron_Age_Estonia_(n=8)

    Modern North Macedonians

    3.73357627 36.40% Balkans_HG_(n=43) + 63.60% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)
    4.04875881 35.40% East_Europeans_(EHG)_(n=10) + 64.60% Mycenaean_Greece_(n=4)
    4.30953564 39.20% West_Europeans_(WHG)_(n=19) + 60.80% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)
    4.38159256 59.40% Italian_Greeks_(n=2) + 40.60% Medieval_Estonia_(n=7)
    4.38999485 60.60% Mycenaean_Greece_(n=4) + 39.40% Bronze_Age_Estonia_(n=16)
    4.47557289 57.40% Mycenaean_Greece_(n=4) + 42.60% Iron_Age_Estonia_(n=8)

    Modern Bulgarians

    Central Bulgarians

    3.35929997 64.00% Italian_Greeks_(n=2) + 36.00% Iron_Age_Estonia_(n=8)
    3.40257541 33.60% Balkans_HG_(n=43) + 66.40% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)
    3.55530217 62.20% Italian_Greeks_(n=2) + 37.80% Medieval_Estonia_(n=7)
    3.62855416 31.00% Baltic_Scandinavia_(SHG)_(n=31) + 69.00% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)
    3.78559726 33.00% Bronze_Age_Estonia_(n=16) + 67.00% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)

    Modern Montenegrins

    3.36411366 54.60% Mycenaean_Greece_(n=4) + 45.40% Iron_Age_Estonia_(n=8)
    3.40924239 58.20% Mycenaean_Greece_(n=4) + 41.80% Bronze_Age_Estonia_(n=16)
    3.65528865 48.40% Minoan_Greece_(n=10) + 51.60% Iron_Age_Estonia_(n=8)

    Modern Serbs

    2.97481588 49.40% Mycenaean_Greece_(n=4) + 50.60% Iron_Age_Estonia_(n=8)
    3.15613859 53.40% Mycenaean_Greece_(n=4) + 46.60% Bronze_Age_Estonia_(n=16)
    3.40525200 43.80% Minoan_Greece_(n=10) + 56.20% Iron_Age_Estonia_(n=8)

    Modern Bosnians

    3.21062198 43.40% Mycenaean_Greece_(n=4) + 56.60% Iron_Age_Estonia_(n=8)
    3.35892333 48.00% Mycenaean_Greece_(n=4) + 52.00% Bronze_Age_Estonia_(n=16)
    3.48115419 50.20% Balkans_HG_(n=43) + 49.80% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)
    3.50593787 38.60% Minoan_Greece_(n=10) + 61.40% Iron_Age_Estonia_(n=8)
    3.73875455 43.00% Minoan_Greece_(n=10) + 57.00% Bronze_Age_Estonia_(n=16)

    Modern Croats

    2.96356284 42.60% Mycenaean_Greece_(n=4) + 57.40% Iron_Age_Estonia_(n=8)
    3.42418040 47.20% Mycenaean_Greece_(n=4) + 52.80% Bronze_Age_Estonia_(n=16)
    3.48083597 37.60% Minoan_Greece_(n=10) + 62.40% Iron_Age_Estonia_(n=8)

    Modern Slovenes

    3.17409255 52.00% Villanovans_(n=2) + 48.00% Iron_Age_Estonia_(n=8)
    3.22750683 42.80% Bronze_Age_Estonia_(n=16) + 57.20% Villanovans_(n=2)
    3.46088684 35.00% Mycenaean_Greece_(n=4) + 65.00% Medieval_Estonia_(n=7)


    Here is a summary table. I also added Greeks from different regions.

    Ethnic group Ancient Balkans (Illyrians/Greeks) Medieval Slavs
    Athens Greeks 85% 15%
    Central Greeks 84% 16%
    Peloponnese Greeks 81% 19%
    Albanians 79% 21%
    Thracian Greeks 76% 24%
    Thessalian Greeks 75% 25%
    Kosovars 69% 31%
    Macedonia Greeks 67% 33%
    Central Bulgarians 64% 36%
    North Macedonians 58% 42%
    Montenegrins 55% 45%
    Serbs 50% 50%
    Bosnians 43% 57%
    Croats 42% 58%
    Slovenes 35% 65%

  5. #5
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I have run a few modern populations to see if their main ancestry can be correctly predicted.

    Modern Italians

    Italians from the Aosta Valley

    1.24548268 38.40% Bell_Beaker_Gaul_(n=13) + 61.60% Villanovans_(n=2)
    1.31631744 40.40% Early_Bronze_Age_Swabia_(n=24) + 59.60% Villanovans_(n=2)

    Villanovan could be a proxy for Proto-Italic, while BB Gaul and EBA Swabia is Proto-Italo-Celtic.

    Italians from Lombardy

    1.74138433 41.80% Mycenaean_Greece_(n=4) + 58.20% Gauls_Belgae_(n=16)
    1.79016272 47.00% Early_Neolithic_Greece_(n=3) + 53.00% Lombards_(n=28)

    Lombardy is a bit too complex for a two-way mix, as it has substantial Germanic ancestry in addition to Italo-Celtic and Neolithic Italian.

    Italians from Tuscany

    1.25566841 42.40% Bell_Beaker_Netherlands_(n=7) + 57.60% Minoan_Greece_(n=10)
    1.77406627 55.20% Minoan_Greece_(n=10) + 44.80% Early_Bronze_Age_Britain_(n=28)
    1.78028919 44.20% Bell_Beaker_Britain_(n=27) + 55.80% Minoan_Greece_(n=10)
    1.81657546 49.20% Bell_Beaker_Germany_(n=24) + 50.80% Minoan_Greece_(n=10)

    About 50-58% Greek (or Neolithic Italian) and 42-50% Proto-Italo-Celtic Bell Beaker.

    Italians from Lazio

    0.80507759 67.20% Italian_Greeks_(n=2) + 32.80% Gauls_Belgae_(n=16)
    0.95779487 32.80% Middle_Bronze_Age_North_Alps_(n=7) + 67.20% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)
    1.19525269 30.00% Early_Bronze_Age_Swabia_(n=24) + 70.00% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)

    Italians from Campania

    0.83756398 10.20% Middle_Bronze_Age_North_Alps_(n=7) + 89.80% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)
    0.94078087 89.80% Italian_Greeks_(n=2) + 10.20% Gauls_Belgae_(n=16)

    Gauls and North Alpine Bronze Age both point to the origins of Italic tribes around the Alps in the Late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age. In summary, the ratio of Italo-Celtic to Greek/Neolithic Italy is about 55-45% in Lombardy, 45-55% in Tuscany, 33-67% in Lazio and 10-90% in Campania.

    Italians from Sicily

    1.91757944 91.00% Italian_Greeks_(n=2) + 9.00% Suebi_Alemmani_(n=20)
    1.96558562 8.40% Early_Bronze_Age_Britain_(n=28) + 91.60% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)
    1.97000730 8.20% Bell_Beaker_Britain_(n=27) + 91.80% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)
    2.00046584 7.80% Bell_Beaker_Netherlands_(n=7) + 92.20% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)

    8-9% of Suebi, British or Dutch surely comes from the Normans. The rest is essentially Greek.


    Modern Iberians

    Spanish Basques

    3.33918776 67.80% Bell_Beaker_Iberia_(n=11) + 32.20% Bell_Beaker_Britain_(n=27)
    3.48324870 70.40% Bell_Beaker_Iberia_(n=11) + 29.60% Bell_Beaker_Netherlands_(n=7)
    3.60106371 67.80% Bell_Beaker_Iberia_(n=11) + 32.20% Early_Bronze_Age_Britain_(n=28)

    Mostly Bell Beaker ancestry, although predominantly Iberian BB, which is overwhelmingly or Neolithic/Megalithic descent.

    Spaniards from Castilla y Léon

    1.72692611 25.80% Early_Bronze_Age_Iberia_(n=7) + 74.20% Medieval_Catalonia_Valencia_(n=9)
    1.91729030 24.00% Middle-Late_Bronze_Age_Spain_(n=38) + 76.00% Medieval_Catalonia_Valencia_(n=9)
    1.92675819 13.40% Chalcolithic_Iberia_(n=59) + 86.60% Medieval_Catalonia_Valencia_(n=9)

    Portuguese

    1.89758746 19.20% Iron_Age_Iberia_(n=22) + 80.80% Roman_&_Visigothic_Iberia_(n=31)
    1.99077619 4.80% Early_Medieval_Canaries_(n=5) + 95.20% Medieval_Catalonia_Valencia_(n=9)


    Modern Greeks

    Greeks from Athens

    2.93584010 14.00% Balkans_HG_(n=43) + 86.00% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)
    2.94172916 12.80% Baltic_Scandinavia_(SHG)_(n=31) + 87.20% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)
    2.97474780 85.00% Italian_Greeks_(n=2) + 15.00% Iron_Age_Estonia_(n=8)
    3.02535154 13.80% Bronze_Age_Estonia_(n=16) + 86.20% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)
    3.09365310 12.40% Neolithic_Ukraine_(n=12) + 87.60% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)

    About 85-88% of ancient Greek ancestry with 12-15% of Baltic/Eastern European (almost certainly from the Early Slavs, who are not included yet).

    Greeks from Macedonia

    3.38052774 67.60% Italian_Greeks_(n=2) + 32.40% Iron_Age_Estonia_(n=8)
    3.51659757 66.20% Italian_Greeks_(n=2) + 33.80% Medieval_Estonia_(n=7)

    Ditto, but with higher Balto-Slavic ancestry (33%).

    Greeks from Crete

    3.05178251 13.80% Maykop_culture_(n=16) + 86.20% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)
    3.31613113 11.60% Chalcolithic_Caucasus_(n=3) + 88.40% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)
    3.53810755 14.20% Kura-Araxes_culture_(n=9) + 85.80% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)

    No Balto-Slavic ancestry in Cretans, but extra Caucasian instead. I have long postulated that Minoan Greeks had partial ancestry from the Kura-Araxes culture.


    Modern Germans

    1.08558423 10.20% Minoan_Greece_(n=10) + 89.80% Unetice_culture_(n=18)
    1.11735502 88.00% Unetice_culture_(n=18) + 12.00% Mycenaean_Greece_(n=4)
    1.18133247 10.40% Early_Neolithic_Greece_(n=3) + 89.60% Unetice_culture_(n=18)

    Slightly unexpected. 89% Unetice with 11% of ancient Greek. I suppose that it is in fact the long Roman presence in western and southern Germany that brought the Greek/South Italian ancestry in the region.


    Modern Dutch

    1.26482821 44.00% Corded_Ware_culture_(n=22) + 56.00% Middle-Late_Bronze_Age_Hungary_(n=6)
    1.32153768 52.60% Corded_Ware_culture_(n=22) + 47.40% Early_Bronze_Age_Southern_France_(n=5)
    1.37042011 49.40% Unetice_culture_(n=18) + 50.60% Middle_Bronze_Age_North_Alps_(n=7)

    Essentially a blend of R1a Corded Ware with R1b from Proto-Celtic Central Europe (Hungary, Alps) or Gaul.


    Modern Belgians

    0.58577815 16.60% Early_Neolithic_Italy_(n=10) + 83.40% Lombards_(n=28)
    0.63450899 17.80% Middle_Chalcolithic_Hungary_(n=9) + 82.20% Lombards_(n=28)
    0.70644507 16.00% Early_Neolithic_France_(n=4) + 84.00% Lombards_(n=28)
    0.73020591 17.40% Middle_Neolithic_Sicily_(n=10) + 82.60% Lombards_(n=28)
    0.85389886 18.80% Late_Chalcolithic_Baden_culture_(n=14) + 81.20% Lombards_(n=28)
    0.85440170 17.80% EN_Alfold_Linear_Pottery_culture_(n=20) + 82.20% Lombards_(n=28)
    0.93023428 17.20% LN_Lengyel_culture_(n=8) + 82.80% Lombards_(n=28)
    0.97070950 17.00% LN_Tisza-Sopot_culture_(n=11) + 83.00% Lombards_(n=28)
    1.14870166 16.20% EN_LBK_culture_(n=43) + 83.80% Lombards_(n=28)

    Lots of similar estimates, all with 82-84% Lombard (West Germanic proxy) with an additional 16-18% of Neolithic ancestry.


    Modern French

    Southwest French

    1.13629604 43.20% Bell_Beaker_Iberia_(n=11) + 56.80% Early_Bronze_Age_Swabia_(n=24)
    1.27682508 47.20% Bell_Beaker_Iberia_(n=11) + 52.80% Bell_Beaker_Gaul_(n=13)
    1.45519287 45.60% Chalcolithic_Iberia_(n=59) + 54.40% Early_Bronze_Age_Swabia_(n=24)

    43-47% BB or Chalcolithic Iberia with 53-57% of Alpine Celtic/Gaulish.


    Modern English

    South English

    1.44898982 43.80% Early_Bronze_Age_Swabia_(n=24) + 56.20% Lombards_(n=28)
    1.44988624 62.40% Bell_Beaker_Netherlands_(n=7) + 37.60% Early_Bronze_Age_Southern_France_(n=5)
    1.53512926 63.20% Bell_Beaker_Britain_(n=27) + 36.80% Middle-Late_Bronze_Age_Hungary_(n=6)
    1.56973724 75.00% Middle_Bronze_Age_Britain_(n=22) + 25.00% Middle-Late_Bronze_Age_Hungary_(n=6)
    1.60591969 65.40% Early_Bronze_Age_Britain_(n=28) + 34.60% Middle-Late_Bronze_Age_Hungary_(n=6)

    EBA Swabia and MLBA Hungary are both close proxies to Hallstatt Celts, who colonised Gaul, Britain and NW Iberia. The Lombards are ethnically close to the Anglo-Saxons. The first estimate would give 44% Celtic and 56% Germanic ancestry, but it's actually quite difficult to assess properly as Proto-Celts and Proto-Germanics were relatively similar.


    Modern Irish

    1.98743466 13.20% MN_Westphalia_(Megalithic_Wartberg)_(n=6) + 86.80% Middle_Bronze_Age_Britain_(n=22)
    2.15216721 78.20% Bell_Beaker_Britain_(n=27) + 21.80% Early_Bronze_Age_Southern_France_(n=5)
    2.21442809 6.80% Globular_Amphora_culture_(n=6) + 93.20% Middle_Bronze_Age_Britain_(n=22)
    2.21652250 5.80% Bell_Beaker_Iberia_(n=11) + 94.20% Middle_Bronze_Age_Britain_(n=22)

    Bell Beaker or Bronze Age Britain with some extra Neolithic West European ancestry.
    I combined all of the samples from the group C6 and ran it compared to the other samples sets:




  6. #6
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    20-04-20
    Posts
    6


    Country: Bosnia & Herzegovina



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Here is an analysis of the modern Balkans. The ancient Balkans were genetically similar to ancient Greece. What differentiate each modern ethnic group is the amount of Steppe and Slavic ancestry that were added since the Late Antiquity. Unfortunately I do not have Early Slavic samples yet, so the closest proxies appear to be M****ithic Europeans and Bronze Age/Iron Age/Medieval Estonia. It will at least give a rough idea of the percentage of Slavic ancestry in each group.

    Note that I prefer to use the 'Mycenaean Greek' and 'Italian Greek' as proxy for ancient Greece (Antiquity) rather than the 'Minoan Greek', as it is chronologically closer and already includes the Steppe ancestry from the Catacomb culture that came with the Proto-Mycenaean invaders. For the Slavic ancestry, I give preference to Medieval Estonia, then IA Estonia, then BA Estonia and last to M****ithic Europeans.

    Modern Albanians


    3.84908822 21.60% West_Europeans_(WHG)_(n=19) + 78.40% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)
    4.12423985 19.80% Balkans_HG_(n=43) + 80.20% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)
    4.47182323 29.20% East_Europeans_(EHG)_(n=10) + 70.80% Minoan_Greece_(n=10)
    4.57493695 21.80% East_Europeans_(EHG)_(n=10) + 78.20% Mycenaean_Greece_(n=4)
    4.62179883 73.00% Italian_Greeks_(n=2) + 27.00% Swedish_Vikings_(n=23)
    4.69283045 26.20% Unetice_culture_(n=18) + 73.80% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)
    4.75311407 78.20% Italian_Greeks_(n=2) + 21.80% Medieval_Estonia_(n=7)

    Albanians from Kosovo


    3.60836736 27.60% West_Europeans_(WHG)_(n=19) + 72.40% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)
    3.93050283 26.00% East_Europeans_(EHG)_(n=10) + 74.00% Mycenaean_Greece_(n=4)
    4.19596010 33.00% East_Europeans_(EHG)_(n=10) + 67.00% Minoan_Greece_(n=10)
    4.27918332 25.20% Balkans_HG_(n=43) + 74.80% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)
    4.40733193 65.20% Italian_Greeks_(n=2) + 34.80% Swedish_Vikings_(n=23)
    4.45984147 33.80% Unetice_culture_(n=18) + 66.20% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)
    4.53617127 71.20% Mycenaean_Greece_(n=4) + 28.80% Bronze_Age_Estonia_(n=16)
    4.55862432 63.80% Minoan_Greece_(n=10) + 36.20% Bronze_Age_Estonia_(n=16)
    4.61941714 68.80% Mycenaean_Greece_(n=4) + 31.20% Iron_Age_Estonia_(n=8)

    Modern North Macedonians

    3.73357627 36.40% Balkans_HG_(n=43) + 63.60% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)
    4.04875881 35.40% East_Europeans_(EHG)_(n=10) + 64.60% Mycenaean_Greece_(n=4)
    4.30953564 39.20% West_Europeans_(WHG)_(n=19) + 60.80% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)
    4.38159256 59.40% Italian_Greeks_(n=2) + 40.60% Medieval_Estonia_(n=7)
    4.38999485 60.60% Mycenaean_Greece_(n=4) + 39.40% Bronze_Age_Estonia_(n=16)
    4.47557289 57.40% Mycenaean_Greece_(n=4) + 42.60% Iron_Age_Estonia_(n=8)

    Modern Bulgarians

    Central Bulgarians

    3.35929997 64.00% Italian_Greeks_(n=2) + 36.00% Iron_Age_Estonia_(n=8)
    3.40257541 33.60% Balkans_HG_(n=43) + 66.40% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)
    3.55530217 62.20% Italian_Greeks_(n=2) + 37.80% Medieval_Estonia_(n=7)
    3.62855416 31.00% Baltic_Scandinavia_(SHG)_(n=31) + 69.00% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)
    3.78559726 33.00% Bronze_Age_Estonia_(n=16) + 67.00% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)

    Modern Montenegrins

    3.36411366 54.60% Mycenaean_Greece_(n=4) + 45.40% Iron_Age_Estonia_(n=8)
    3.40924239 58.20% Mycenaean_Greece_(n=4) + 41.80% Bronze_Age_Estonia_(n=16)
    3.65528865 48.40% Minoan_Greece_(n=10) + 51.60% Iron_Age_Estonia_(n=8)

    Modern Serbs

    2.97481588 49.40% Mycenaean_Greece_(n=4) + 50.60% Iron_Age_Estonia_(n=8)
    3.15613859 53.40% Mycenaean_Greece_(n=4) + 46.60% Bronze_Age_Estonia_(n=16)
    3.40525200 43.80% Minoan_Greece_(n=10) + 56.20% Iron_Age_Estonia_(n=8)

    Modern Bosnians

    3.21062198 43.40% Mycenaean_Greece_(n=4) + 56.60% Iron_Age_Estonia_(n=8)
    3.35892333 48.00% Mycenaean_Greece_(n=4) + 52.00% Bronze_Age_Estonia_(n=16)
    3.48115419 50.20% Balkans_HG_(n=43) + 49.80% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)
    3.50593787 38.60% Minoan_Greece_(n=10) + 61.40% Iron_Age_Estonia_(n=8)
    3.73875455 43.00% Minoan_Greece_(n=10) + 57.00% Bronze_Age_Estonia_(n=16)

    Modern Croats

    2.96356284 42.60% Mycenaean_Greece_(n=4) + 57.40% Iron_Age_Estonia_(n=8)
    3.42418040 47.20% Mycenaean_Greece_(n=4) + 52.80% Bronze_Age_Estonia_(n=16)
    3.48083597 37.60% Minoan_Greece_(n=10) + 62.40% Iron_Age_Estonia_(n=8)

    Modern Slovenes

    3.17409255 52.00% Villanovans_(n=2) + 48.00% Iron_Age_Estonia_(n=8)
    3.22750683 42.80% Bronze_Age_Estonia_(n=16) + 57.20% Villanovans_(n=2)
    3.46088684 35.00% Mycenaean_Greece_(n=4) + 65.00% Medieval_Estonia_(n=7)


    Here is a summary table. I also added Greeks from different regions.

    Ethnic group Ancient Balkans (Illyrians/Greeks) Medieval Slavs
    Athens Greeks 85% 15%
    Central Greeks 84% 16%
    Peloponnese Greeks 81% 19%
    Albanians 79% 21%
    Thracian Greeks 76% 24%
    Thessalian Greeks 75% 25%
    Kosovars 69% 31%
    Macedonia Greeks 67% 33%
    Central Bulgarians 64% 36%
    North Macedonians 58% 42%
    Montenegrins 55% 45%
    Serbs 50% 50%
    Bosnians 43% 57%
    Croats 42% 58%
    Slovenes 35% 65%

    This is very interesting and I thank you for taking the time to shine a little light on our region, Maciamo. I just have a question and an observation.


    Forgive me if this is an ignorant question but I am just curious why you use the Greek samples and not the actual Bronze Age Illyrian sample too? And where does any Germanic ancestry that a Balkan person may have end up in this equation?


    And my observation is that the "Bosnian" result will mostly represent Bosnians from the north (and to be honest, I'm not sure if that sample represents only ethnic Bosniaks, or a combination of all three of the country's ethnic groups). I have yet to see any representation of Bosniaks from the southern half of the country in any studies or Dodecad calculators. I am from Herzegovina and my Dodecad K12b results have significantly more "southern material" than the northern individuals. Even on 23AndMe, Bosniaks from Herzegovina tend to have on average around 20% more "Greek & Balkan" ancestry than those from the north and northwest. So a more regional representation may be better, as we have seen with Bulgarians and Greeks.


    Anyways, I am going to try and use my Dodecad K12b results to see where "Herzegovina Bosniaks" like me fit on your table. If I mess this up, please feel free to run the numbers yourself.


    Bosniak_Hercegovina,5.99,0.95,0.01,0.58,32.06,32.2 1,0.03,0.00,6.10,0.00,22.07,0.00

    Distance to: Bosniak_Hercegovina
    4.15071079 57.20% Mycenaean_Greece_(n=4) + 42.80% Medieval_Estonia_(n=7)
    4.98113785 39.80% M****ithic_West_Europeans_(WHG)_(n=21) + 60.20% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)
    5.06352126 59.40% Mycenaean_Greece_(n=4) + 40.60% Iron_Age_Estonia_(n=8)
    5.34117312 38.60% M****ithic_Balkans_HG_(n=43) + 61.40% Mycenaean_Greece_(n=4)
    5.69338526 62.80% Mycenaean_Greece_(n=4) + 37.20% Bronze_Age_Estonia_(n=16)
    6.08283914 42.20% M****ithic_West_Europeans_(WHG)_(n=21) + 57.80% Mycenaean_Greece_(n=4)
    7.27700248 36.00% M****ithic_Balkans_HG_(n=43) + 64.00% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)
    8.00843555 60.00% Italian_Greeks_(n=2) + 40.00% Medieval_Estonia_(n=7)
    9.52007136 62.60% Italian_Greeks_(n=2) + 37.40% Iron_Age_Estonia_(n=8)
    10.35629462 66.00% Italian_Greeks_(n=2) + 34.00% Bronze_Age_Estonia_(n=16)
    27.38366668 2.40% Mycenaean_Greece_(n=4) + 97.60% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)
    40.05034826 13.60% M****ithic_West_Europeans_(WHG)_(n=21) + 86.40% Medieval_Estonia_(n=7)

  7. #7
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    22-04-19
    Posts
    53


    Country: Yugoslavia



    Quote Originally Posted by Shargan View Post
    This is very interesting and I thank you for taking the time to shine a little light on our region, Maciamo. I just have a question and an observation.


    Forgive me if this is an ignorant question but I am just curious why you use the Greek samples and not the actual Bronze Age Illyrian sample too? And where does any Germanic ancestry that a Balkan person may have end up in this equation?


    And my observation is that the "Bosnian" result will mostly represent Bosnians from the north (and to be honest, I'm not sure if that sample represents only ethnic Bosniaks, or a combination of all three of the country's ethnic groups). I have yet to see any representation of Bosniaks from the southern half of the country in any studies or Dodecad calculators. I am from Herzegovina and my Dodecad K12b results have significantly more "southern material" than the northern individuals. Even on 23AndMe, Bosniaks from Herzegovina tend to have on average around 20% more "Greek & Balkan" ancestry than those from the north and northwest. So a more regional representation may be better, as we have seen with Bulgarians and Greeks.


    Anyways, I am going to try and use my Dodecad K12b results to see where "Herzegovina Bosniaks" like me fit on your table. If I mess this up, please feel free to run the numbers yourself.


    Bosniak_Hercegovina,5.99,0.95,0.01,0.58,32.06,32.2 1,0.03,0.00,6.10,0.00,22.07,0.00

    could you post your Eurogenes k13 results?
    it's hard to find Herzegovina Bosniak results.

    I believe those "Bosnians" are Muslim Bosniaks from Sarajevo and Zavidovici from the study "Standing at the Gateway to Europe - The Genetic Structure of Western Balkan Populations Based on Autosomal and Haploid Markers"

  8. #8
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    20-04-20
    Posts
    6


    Country: Bosnia & Herzegovina



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by voloh View Post
    could you post your Eurogenes k13 results?
    it's hard to find Herzegovina Bosniak results.

    I believe those "Bosnians" are Muslim Bosniaks from Sarajevo and Zavidovici from the study "Standing at the Gateway to Europe - The Genetic Structure of Western Balkan Populations Based on Autosomal and Haploid Markers"
    Eurogenes K13 coordinates are:
    Bosniak_Hercegovina,26.17,23.06,19.93,9.86,16.80,1 .88,0.15,0.26,0.35,0.01,1.54,0.00,0.00


    Closest matches seem to be Bosniak_Sandzak and Montenegrins, which makes perfect sense historically. After that, it's a bunch of Romanians and Macedonians.

  9. #9
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    22-04-19
    Posts
    53


    Country: Yugoslavia



    Quote Originally Posted by Shargan View Post
    Eurogenes K13 coordinates are:
    Bosniak_Hercegovina,26.17,23.06,19.93,9.86,16.80,1 .88,0.15,0.26,0.35,0.01,1.54,0.00,0.00


    Closest matches seem to be Bosniak_Sandzak and Montenegrins, which makes perfect sense historically. After that, it's a bunch of Romanians and Macedonians.
    interesting. Serbs from East Herzegovina are usually like you but with 2 points more NA or Baltic.

    Croats from Mostar and West Herzegovina are different, they always have at least 30 Baltic, some have up to 37.

    Bosniaks can be in both clusters it seems.

    this is a Bosniak from Mostar:
    # Population Percent
    1 Baltic 34
    2 North_Atlantic 22.27
    3 West_Med 17.38
    4 East_Med 15.6
    5 West_Asian 5.81
    6 Red_Sea 2.77
    7 Siberian 1
    8 East_Asian 0.42
    9 Northeast_African 0.41
    10 Amerindian 0.32

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