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Thread: Origin of the Basques

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    Quote Originally Posted by Davidtab View Post
    We have the whole Iberia with exactly the same people in genetic terms during Iron Age (same as actual Basques), but ones speaking non-IE languages in the south and the east and ones speaking IE languages (celtic and perhaps italic) in the center, north and west.
    Actual Basque Country was inhabitated by people speaking IE languages. Navarra country was inhabitated by people speaking IE, Iberic and Vasconic languages. Surely Basque homeland was Aquitanie in southeast France and along Pirineos mountains.
    Please hear spanish archeologists about languages in ancient Iberia, nobody better than them about what they are speaking about:
    The end of the paleohispanic languages: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1wMFrV7meg
    Lusitanian: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AkwcJTJGLI&t=1602s
    Iberic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAtv97ufFBE
    Celticiberic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBev9-XjLPs
    Tartessian: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlAW_jZ868I

    More than 7 hours speaking about languages in ancient Iberia, based on texts written on stone or bronze. And almost nothing about languages from Kallaikoi in the northwestern, Astures and Cantabrians, surely some kind of old Celtic or at least, some kind of IE.

    We have to wait for the results of vettones, vacceos and astures. Although they practiced cremation, there are many remains of newborn children buried in the ground of the houses- Then we will know if they are also Qf27. I think so because the culture of Las Cogotas is overwhelmingly Df27. and there is an evident cultural continuity between Cogotas> Soto culture> Vacceos, vettones and astures. I don't know if there are similar research projects for Galicians and Lusitanians. If all these peoples turn out to be P312> Df27 then it will be necessary to think that the introduction of IE languages ​​in Iberia is a matter of the Iron Age (Celtiberians) and that the cultural contacts of these peoples with the Celts who crossed the Pyrenees made that those peoples of the western half of the peninsula will abandon their native Iberian languages.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Never said that Basques and Sardinians are the same. Why are you bringing it up?

    Basques and "Iberians" are different; not grossly different, but different. The difference has to be post Iron Age.

    As for Indo-Europeans, I'm not going to re-debate Olalde et al. Indo-European speaking Beakers invaded Iberia, leaving their R1b lineage behind them and their autosomes as well. That R1b is thousands of years younger than the R1b you're discussing, and came from the East. The Basques, like the Etruscans, are an example of Indo-European men adopting the language of their EEF wives.
    You’ve got that backwards. The Sardinian population is the one that absorbed significant levels of foreign (primarily Punic/Berber and Near Eastern in origin) admixture in the post-Iron Age epochs. Such introgressions occurred on a scale that was far more consequential/transformative in Sardinia than anything that took place in Iberia over the course of the same period. This fact is fairly common knowledge and easy to look up/verify (virtually every PCA modeling reflects this).

    Sardinia clearly retained the highest levels of EEF ancestry in Europe, but that is only one of several variables that account for their unique ‘cluster.’ Were the inverse the case, modern Iberians would not consistently show far greater levels of genetic affinity with Central and Western European populations than modern Sardinians do.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Astur_Cantabri View Post
    You’ve got that backwards. The Sardinian population is the one that absorbed significant levels of foreign (primarily Punic/Berber and Near Eastern in origin) admixture in the post-Iron Age epochs. Such introgressions occurred on a scale that was far more consequential/transformative in Sardinia than anything that took place in Iberia over the course of the same period. This fact is fairly common knowledge and easy to look up/verify (virtually every PCA modeling reflects this).

    Sardinia clearly retained the highest levels of EEF ancestry in Europe, but that is only one of several variables that account for their unique ‘cluster.’ Were the inverse the case, modern Iberians would not consistently show far greater levels of genetic affinity with Central and Western European populations than modern Sardinians do.
    Angela is right, please see the following study:

    We assembled genome-wide data from 271 ancient Iberians, of whom 176 are from the largely unsampled period after 2000 BCE, thereby providing a high-resolution time transect of the Iberian Peninsula. We document high genetic substructure between northwestern and southeastern hunter-gatherers before the spread of farming. We reveal sporadic contacts between Iberia and North Africa by ~2500 BCE and, by ~2000 BCE, the replacement of 40% of Iberia’s ancestry and nearly 100% of its Y-chromosomes by people with Steppe ancestry. We show that, in the Iron Age, Steppe ancestry had spread not only into Indo-European–speaking regions but also into non-Indo-European–speaking ones, and we reveal that present-day Basques are best described as a typical Iron Age population without the admixture events that later affected the rest of Iberia. Additionally, we document how, beginning at least in the Roman period, the ancestry of the peninsula was transformed by gene flow from North Africa and the eastern Mediterranean.

    https://science.sciencemag.org/content/363/6432/1230

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    Quote Originally Posted by Astur_Cantabri View Post
    You’ve got that backwards. The Sardinian population is the one that absorbed significant levels of foreign (primarily Punic/Berber and Near Eastern in origin) admixture in the post-Iron Age epochs. Such introgressions occurred on a scale that was far more consequential/transformative in Sardinia than anything that took place in Iberia over the course of the same period. This fact is fairly common knowledge and easy to look up/verify (virtually every PCA modeling reflects this).

    Sardinia clearly retained the highest levels of EEF ancestry in Europe, but that is only one of several variables that account for their unique ‘cluster.’ Were the inverse the case, modern Iberians would not consistently show far greater levels of genetic affinity with Central and Western European populations than modern Sardinians do.
    Primarily North Mediterranean aka Italic admixture not Berber

    https://i.imgur.com/TViGpl0.jpg

    Inviato dal mio POT-LX1T utilizzando Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Angela is right, please see the following study:
    You already know that geneticists like to make discoveries that may seem surprising or novel, so that their papers have a greater impact on public opinion. Harvardians-Prof Reich are specialists in this matter and Olalde is certainly one of them. When in that paragraph, he speaks of sporadic contacts with North Africa, he refers to this sample.

    *I4246/RISE697, sample #7, Fondo 5 UE05 Muerto 1: 2473–2030 cal BCE [2473–2299 cal BCE (3910±30 BP, PSUAMS-2119), 2280–2030 cal BCE (3650±40 BP, Beta-184837)- (2.155 AC)-Haplogrupo Y-E1b1b/1a (x E1b1b/1a1)- Mit- M1a1/b1

    However, it is not so surprising to find Africans in European BB sites, because I have already explained that it was a true thalassocracy with factories throughout the western Mediterranean. In this case, the surprising thing is that the African was a giant of two meters in height and that he did not travel alone just because in Sardinia we have

    *I15940 (2.245 AC)-TombE-Anghelu Ruju, Sardinia-HapY-E1b1b/1a-Hap Mit-M1a1/b1

    Exact uniparental markers. These cases show that the Iberian BBs traded with Sardinia and that some Africans participated in these activities. But these sporadic African contacts also occurred in Britain and Poland.

    + Archaeogenetics and Palaeogenetics of the British Isles- Doctoral Thesis Katharina Dulias (3 , march 2021)- “My project highlights population turnover during the Neolithic to Bronze Age transition in the Scottish Isles, identifies possible Near Eastern/North African ancestry in a Bell Beaker individual from Northeastern England”

    +Corded Ware cultural complexity uncovered using genomic and isotopic analysis from southeastern Poland-Anna Linderholm (2.020)-

    *Pcw420 (3830 ± 35 BP)-Proszowice-HapY-R1a-M417 (xZ645)-Mit Hap-L3c’d

    Regarding the Basques, everyone knows that genetically we are like the Iberians of the Iron Age, I think Asturcantabri was not referring to that, but to the statement that all Southern Europeans are slightly modified Sardinians, which is simply not true, despite sharing high percentages of EEF, and the obvious cultural relations between Iberia and Sardinia since the Neolithic.

    The Proboscidian ivory adorments from the hypogeum of Padru Jossu (Sanluri, Sardinia, Italy) and the Mediterranean Bell Beaker-Jose Miguel Morillo, Claudia Pau, Jean Guileine (2.018)-

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    hi ,
    there is a new paper on basque
    source
    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-84915-1

    you as a basque
    1) what do you think about the presence of e-v65 in nice number in some basque ?
    2) do you think it is ancient migration from from north africa in chl- bronze age
    or is it something more recent ?



    https://i.imgur.com/r3FmUyp.jpg
    Last edited by kingjohn; 07-04-21 at 16:09.
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-FGC7391/

    https://yfull.com/mtree/H3ap/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Angela is right, please see the following study:
    It won't matter what the data shows.

    Some Iberians just still refuse to accept that there was some impact on their genomes from the years of the Muslim invasion and rule. The only ones who got barely any are the Spanish Basques, language probably being the determining factor.

    Science always loses when confronted by centuries of "official" history as pronounced by the victors. It happens all over the world. Iberians aren't the only ones.

    Btw, as I'm sure you know, but some people do not or have forgotten. The biggest reason for Sardinia's position on PCAs is DRIFT. To some extent that applies to the Basques too.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaska View Post
    Ok here you go

    http://tp.revistas.csic.es/index.php...ticle/view/693

    https://www.academia.edu/13806511/La...odilla_Burgos_

    The first paper refers only to the collective tomb (dolmen). the second paper to the BB burials found at the entrance of the dolmen (only is the archaeological description of the site). There is nothing regarding genetics, just an anthropological description of the remains (brachycephaly, height, etc.) and their dating.
    Gracias.
    Later I 'll come back about the Basque question and the concept of homogeneity in Iberian Chalco.

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    Angela said: "Some Iberians just still refuse to accept that there was some impact on their genomes from the years of the Muslim invasion and rule. The only ones who got barely any are the Spanish Basques, language probably being the determining factor.

    Science always loses when confronted by centuries of "official" history as pronounced by the victors. It happens all over the world. Iberians aren't the only ones."

    Well, this is not right. Certainly in Spain everybody believes exactly the opposite... common people believe Spaniards, specially in the center and south are a real melting pot of different peoples: Iberics, Celts, Phoenicians, Greeks, Romans, Germanics, Berbers and Arabics... when you explain the results of genetic studies and present Iberians as a boring very uniform people with little foreing influence since 2.500 BC, they simply dont believe you, and say its impossible: Romans ruled the whole Iberia al least 500 years!! Muslims ruled in part of the south 800 years!!! but the real fact is just the opposite... all that foreing people left a little genetic track in Iberia, and the most incredible part is the Berber one... the mixing only happened between 860 and 1160 and almost only in the west third part of Iberia, the one from where Muslims were firstly expelled, with actual maximuns of 10%... perhaps in the very first times of Reconquista muslims were not deported just stayed and became christians again. The genetic influence is from present West Sahara berbers, not actual population of North Marocco. Its just amazing and I wish someday we could know how it could happened in South Galicia, North Portugal, Leon, Zamora, Salamanca or Extremadura.

    About differences between Iberian populations, if I remind in the right way, the most different population in the whole Iberia is the people around the valley where the ancient city of Tui is placed, in Pontevedra (Galicia). As a real surprise, the galician population is very clustered by river valleys, seems that galicians only married with galicians from very near their own home (10km around) for centuries, and I am in that way, in the last 250 years, all my ancestors are around 5-6 km my home except two from Asturias and one from Central Europe.
    The last genetic study about basques speaks about a similar way of genetic structure, very clustered by respective basque dialect.

    So Angela, I dont think Iberians refuse the idea of some genetic impact of Muslim rule because all of us expected this impact was much more important than Science has found out, and only the ones who are from the far northwest (as me) where the Muslims only ruled 30 years between 715 and 739 were surprised because we have much more berber genetic impact than the ones who live in Granada, where muslims ruled from 711 to 1492.

    Also: official history (expecting much more berber genetic general impact in Iberia, but mainly in center, east and south Iberia) has been completely refused by science findings, but just in the opposite way you are saying.

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    Davidtab has clearly explained what the spaniards feel. We have simply been amazed at the low percentage of African blood that we have. These are the percentages of the last published work

    *Target-------------------------- Iberian IA Roman North African
    Zuberoa-SOU- 0.873 0.127 0.000
    Lapurdi Nafarroa-NLA- 0.850 0.150 0.000
    Bearn-BEA- 0.777 0.223 0.000
    Bigorre-BIG- 0.745 0.255 0.000
    Chalosse-CHA- 0.823 0.177 0.000
    Alava-ALA 0.853 0.147 0.000
    Vizcaya-BBA- 0.903 0.097 0.000
    Vizcaya Occidental-BOC- 0.668 0.332 0.000
    Guipuzcoa Sudoccidental- 0.917 0.083 0.000
    Guipuzcoa Central-GUI- 0.881 0.119 0.000
    Navarra-Central- 0.793 0.207 0.000
    Navarra-Noroccidental- 0.860 0.140 0.000
    Roncal-RON- 0.908 0.092 0.000
    Burgos-BUR- 0.618 0.382 0.000
    Cantabria-CAN- 0.541 0.459 0.000
    Aragón-NAR- 0.730 0.270 0.000
    Aragón- 0.614 0.386 0.000
    Rioja-RIO- 0.660 0.340 0.000
    Pirineos- 0.555 0.445 0.000
    Gerona- 0.575 0.425 0.000
    Lérida- 0.564 0.436 0.000
    Barcelonés- 0.628 0.369 0.003 (0.3%)
    Peri_Barcelona- 0.532 0.468 0.000
    Campo de Tarragona- 0.547 0.453 0.000
    Castellón- 0.645 0.355 0.000
    Tierras del Ebro- 0.612 0.385 0.003 (0.3%)
    Ibiza- 0.433 0.562 0.005 (0.5%)
    Mallorca- 0.462 0.538 0.000
    Menorca- 0.524 0.474 0.002 (0.2%)
    Valencia- 0.555 0.441 0.004 (0.4%)
    Alicante- 0.508 0.483 0.009 (0.9%)
    Andalucia- 0.492 0.469 0.038 (3.8%)
    Castilla-La Mancha- 0.531 0.453 0.015 (1.5%)
    Castilla y León- 0.444 0.521 0.035 (3.5%)
    Extremadura- 0.534 0.407 0.059 (5.9%)
    Galicia- 0.478 0.464 0.058 (5.8%)
    Murcia- 0.439 0.520 0.042 (4.2%)

    The funniest thing about it is that many self-conscious European and South American rednecks use this data because they think it hurts us. Nothing is further from reality. As you have been able to verify in the eastern and northern half of the peninsula the percentages are 0.000, and in the rest the percentages are so small that they can be considered as something exotic in our genome and of course this does not affect our phenotype because a Basque or a Galician cannot be distinguished from an Andalusian or a Valencian

    The only explanation for these percentages in Galicia, León and Extremadura is the resettlement of Moors after the rebellion of the Alpujarras (I have seen many marriage certificates from the 16th century where priests refer to the Moorish past of those people)

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    Attachment 12623

    We have always thought that we are more similar to Italians than French, but clearly this is not the case.

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    Hap-Y R1b R1a I1 I2a I2b G T N Q J2 J1 E1b1b
    Irlanda- 81,0 2,5 6,0 1,0 5,0 1,0 x x x 1,0 x 2,0
    España- 69,0 2,0 1,5 4,5 1,0 3,0 2,5 x x 8,0 1,5 7,0
    Inglaterra- 67,0 4,5 14,0 2,5 4,5 1,5 0,5 x 0,5 3,5 x 2,0
    Francia- 58,0 3,0 8,5 3,0 3,5 5,5 1,0 x 0,5 6,0 1,5 7,5
    Portugal- 56,0 1,5 2,0 1,5 3,0 6.5 2,5 x 0,5 9,5 3,0 14,0
    Alemania- 45,0 16,0 16,0 1,5 4,5 5,0 1,0 1,0 0,5 4,5 x 5,5
    Islandia- 42,0 23,0 29,0 x 4,0 x x 1,0 1,0 x x x
    Italia- 39,0 4,0 4,5 3,0 2,5 9,0 2,5 x x 15,5 3,0 13,5


    Sardinia- 18,50 1,0 x 37,5 2,0 12,0 1,50 x x 9,0 4,0 9,50
    Basque C - 85,0 x 0,5 5,0 x 1,5 x x 0,5 2,5 0,5 2,5

    Another of the funny surprises of Olalde's paper is that E1b (in addition to a sample in Catalonia-Cardial Culture, and the sample published by Olalde) entered Iberia with the Visigoths who surely acquired that marker in their migrations through the Balkans. later evidently with the Moors that percentage increased to current levels

    It could be that we find more cases in the Neolithic, because the culture of Michelsberg (France) has many cases of E1b

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaska View Post
    Attachment 12623

    We have always thought that we are more similar to Italians than French, but clearly this is not the case.
    Both Spaniards and Portuguese do not look similar in appearance to the French, with the exception of the South-Western French. The Spanish and Portuguese have more WHG than the Italians but Spanish and Portuguese do not have Steppe like the French.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gaska View Post
    Hap-Y R1b R1a I1 I2a I2b G T N Q J2 J1 E1b1b
    Irlanda- 81,0 2,5 6,0 1,0 5,0 1,0 x x x 1,0 x 2,0
    España- 69,0 2,0 1,5 4,5 1,0 3,0 2,5 x x 8,0 1,5 7,0
    Inglaterra- 67,0 4,5 14,0 2,5 4,5 1,5 0,5 x 0,5 3,5 x 2,0
    Francia- 58,0 3,0 8,5 3,0 3,5 5,5 1,0 x 0,5 6,0 1,5 7,5
    Portugal- 56,0 1,5 2,0 1,5 3,0 6.5 2,5 x 0,5 9,5 3,0 14,0
    Alemania- 45,0 16,0 16,0 1,5 4,5 5,0 1,0 1,0 0,5 4,5 x 5,5
    Islandia- 42,0 23,0 29,0 x 4,0 x x 1,0 1,0 x x x
    Italia- 39,0 4,0 4,5 3,0 2,5 9,0 2,5 x x 15,5 3,0 13,5


    Sardinia- 18,50 1,0 x 37,5 2,0 12,0 1,50 x x 9,0 4,0 9,50
    Basque C - 85,0 x 0,5 5,0 x 1,5 x x 0,5 2,5 0,5 2,5

    Another of the funny surprises of Olalde's paper is that E1b (in addition to a sample in Catalonia-Cardial Culture, and the sample published by Olalde) entered Iberia with the Visigoths who surely acquired that marker in their migrations through the Balkans. later evidently with the Moors that percentage increased to current levels

    It could be that we find more cases in the Neolithic, because the culture of Michelsberg (France) has many cases of E1b

    What is this data supposed to prove? R1b has been in Europe since the Mesolithic period.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alais View Post
    Both Spaniards and Portuguese do not look similar in appearance to the French, with the exception of the South-Western French. The Spanish and Portuguese have more WHG than the Italians but Spanish and Portuguese do not have Steppe like the French.
    What is this data supposed to prove? R1b has been in Europe since the Mesolithic period.

    I was not talking about physical appearance, but about the unipersonal markers and autosomal components. Regarding these data, if you look at the PCA that I have sent you will realize that the Spaniards are closer to the French (which is normal given the geographical proximity)-And obviously southern France is more similar to us than northern France.

    What these data prove is the difference between the male markers of Italy and Spain, and more specifically between Sardinia and the Basque Country. They mean that we are much less alike than we thought despite being all southern Europeans. Even our R1b is different, because although they are brother lineages the Italians are U152 and we Df27 (In France there are also good percentages of this marker).

    What surprises us, is what DavidTab said. How is it possible that the Romans left so little genetic influence in Hispania after five centuries, or how is it possible that Granada has such a small percentage of E1b after seven centuries of Muslim domination. The Reconquista, the repopulation of the south, the expulsion of Jews and Moors and the laws of purity of blood are the explanation.

    Has anyone studied which are the HapY brought by the Romans to Spain? - We know that the Greeks from Ampurias were J, but I do not know what current Spanish lineages can be related to the Italians.

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    "Both Spaniards and Portuguese do not look similar in appearance to the French, with the exception of the South-Western French"... sorry... what?? hahaha... of course we look like similar... I have been a lot of times in France and the people is very similar in appearence, the only thing you can feel when you travel across Europe is a GRADUAL up or down in the eyes colour and skin capaticity of been tanned by the sun as long as you go travelling... and another thing... you must compare skin colour (for example) only between November and March, when in South Europe we are much less tanned by the sun. I have been living in Ireland a lot of years ago, the difference was only the percentage of light coloured eyes and their almost incapacity of being tanned by the sun. Perhaps the only appearence differences in Europe is you can find much more appearence variety between southerners than between northerners.

    Gaska: Angel Carracedo determinated that the entrance of berber genetics in western part of Iberians was only between 860 and 1120, and from people very similar to actual West Sahara Berbers (saharauis), so Alpujarras could not be a possibility (and I hardly believe Alpujarras muslims finally expelled from Castille were extremely similar to actual Spaniards in genetic terms). The question is an amazing question and it would be very interesting in the next years to find how exactly happened and where, because it seems in Galicia, for example, northerners have not this ancestry and southerners and northern portugueses yes.

    Another thing is, for example, it is known Lugo was repopulated in 740-750 by Odoario, who left Lugo and stayed in Maghreb like christian bishop, and came back in 740 with people he brought from there.

    In 1120 Reconquista was almost ended in Portugal, and over 860 Leon Kingdom was in the line of:
    Braga, Tuy, Astorga, Len, Amaya, Briviesca, Miranda, Oporto, Simancas y Zamora

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    "Has anyone studied which are the HapY brought by the Romans to Spain?" Perhaps mine, J2-L283, is one of them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaska View Post
    @Moesan

    Helladic streams since 2.500 BC? I have no idea what you are talking about, Greek colonies appear in the Iron Age.
    And evidently genetic homogeneity, there are a lot of papers that speak of genetic continuity in Iberia with respect to its uniparental markers (the males since the Chalcolithic, the females some since the Paleolithic and the rest since the Neolithic). Iberia is a very boring region genetically speaking (at least until the arrival of the Celts, Greeks and Romans).
    I don't remember where I read this. It's maybe a too much extrapolation by someone. But it seems that Eastern Mediterranean influences have been at play in Southern Iberia, (not in Basque country), at Bronze, showing some ties with Greece, or Egea, or Anatolia, maybe from an earlier common influence, at least concerning sepultures. At a general level, according to some anthropologists like Charles, a new type or a new averaging of types from Greece and surroundings (a southern mix rather mediterranean-like roughly said) become denser and denser since Chalco to Bronze in Western Mediterranea regions (Iberia, Italy, France). It doesn't ressemble the 'dinaroids', not too common among BB's of Iberia ('dinaroids' very more denser in West-Central Europe BB settlements). I have no idea of the culture(S) of these people in S-E Iberia. People partially different than the Chalco ones of Northern Italy, these ones apparently a mixed population described as 'balkano-mediterraneans' which intruded into there (from Croatia?).
    It's just to justify myself. Sorry for the vagueness. I don't find too much genetic data helas about this southern Iberia Bronze.

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    I add it seems the Bronze in Iberia weakened after the collapse in Eastern Mediterranea; surely it marks the break down of dense enough commrcial an human relations beween both regions at those times? But I have only vague knowledge about archeology here.

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    @Gaska
    you wrote: first DF27
    *EHU002 El Hundido (2.434 BC)-- HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-K1a4/a1-BB burial-Oval pit in the corridor of a dolmen-Male+45 years, 1,85 m, fetal position in right lateral decubitus and with NO-SE orientation-Grave goods- Ciempozuelos style vessel, copper dagger, V perforated button-
    *EHU001/UE 750-El Hundido (2.413 BC)-HapY-R1b-L51-Mit-U5a1/b1-

    The three BB’s of El Hundido (only two with Y-haplo in your doc) are supposed to date roughly said between 2400-2200 BC if I read well. They have Ciempozuelos pots, and other artefacts evocating Ebro Valley and even one evocating Brittany, not surprising for mobile BB’s ; they were tall (one 1m83, another 1m76) and rather brachycephalic with broad mandibles and heavy enough skeletons, strong muscular traces (so more on the ‘borreby’ side of N-W Europe than to the typical ‘dinaric’ ; to check it we lack the occiput shape ; ATW they are more on the side of N-NW BB’s than to the mean of Iberia BB’s.

    Of importance for your concept of continuity: their tombs are reuses of collective tombs, with a span of time of 500 years between them !
    It spites me there is no auDNA data in this paper.
    concerning the two ones with mtDNA, the mt-K1a4 one is common allover Europe and surroundings since Neolithic, even if dense at Iberia neolithic, and the mt-U5a1 ou U5a1b1 are found in more than a place in Europe, not specially linked to Maykop; it just marks an eastern origin foreign to ancient Iberia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    I add it seems the Bronze in Iberia weakened after the collapse in Eastern Mediterranea; surely it marks the break down of dense enough commrcial an human relations beween both regions at those times? But I have only vague knowledge about archeology here.
    Perhaps when you refer to eastern Mediterranean influences you mean El Argar culture, because archaeologists have always thought that there was some kind of influence from that region. This is the last work presented on that culture. The genetic study of more than 65 individuals will be presented this year, although I do not think there are many novelties (overwhelmingly Df27), the poorest burials have also been studied to discover if the social hierarchy was related to the different male lineages. It seems that this culture also collapsed with the climate change of the age of the Brone.

    In any case, trade with the Levant took place since the Chalcolithic period, because part of the ivory found in the cultures of southern Iberia (Vilanova de San Pedro, Los Millares) was Asian and could only reach Iberia from Syria or Iran

    +Emblems and spaces of power during the Argaric Bronze Age at La Almoloya, Murcia-V.Llul, Cristina Rihuete, Roberto Risch (2.021)- The recent discovery of an exceptionally rich grave at La Almoloya in south-eastern Spain illuminates the political context of Early Bronze Age El Argar society

    https://www.cambridge.org/core/journ...C6D4F2C3981C2F


    Regarding El Hundido, the connections with Brittany are scarce but evident-Palmela point with wide peduncle of rectangular section more typical of daggers of the Moelan-Brittany type, double-pointed awl with square section type Fontbouisse) What we do not know is the direction of the migrations because the international ceramic type of Brittany has Iberian origin. The dating is very clear and the archaeologist in charge of the excavation has confirmed it personally
    *EHU001-Datación C14 (Carmen Alonso-2.013)-Tumba I (Muestra de hueso)-(3.933-CSIC 1996) que calibrada- (2.492-2.334 cal BC-84%)- (2.413 AC)-
    *EHU002/UE 450: 2562–2306 cal BCE (3933±32 BP, CSIC-1896)- (2.434 AC)-

    In fact EHU002 is the second oldest P312 in Europe after Osterhofen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Davidtab View Post
    "Both Spaniards and Portuguese do not look similar in appearance to the French, with the exception of the South-Western French"... sorry... what?? hahaha... of course we look like similar... I have been a lot of times in France and the people is very similar in appearence, the only thing you can feel when you travel across Europe is a GRADUAL up or down in the eyes colour and skin capaticity of been tanned by the sun as long as you go travelling... and another thing... you must compare skin colour (for example) only between November and March, when in South Europe we are much less tanned by the sun. I have been living in Ireland a lot of years ago, the difference was only the percentage of light coloured eyes and their almost incapacity of being tanned by the sun. Perhaps the only appearence differences in Europe is you can find much more appearence variety between southerners than between northerners.

    Gaska: Angel Carracedo determinated that the entrance of berber genetics in western part of Iberians was only between 860 and 1120, and from people very similar to actual West Sahara Berbers (saharauis), so Alpujarras could not be a possibility (and I hardly believe Alpujarras muslims finally expelled from Castille were extremely similar to actual Spaniards in genetic terms). The question is an amazing question and it would be very interesting in the next years to find how exactly happened and where, because it seems in Galicia, for example, northerners have not this ancestry and southerners and northern portugueses yes.

    Another thing is, for example, it is known Lugo was repopulated in 740-750 by Odoario, who left Lugo and stayed in Maghreb like christian bishop, and came back in 740 with people he brought from there.

    In 1120 Reconquista was almost ended in Portugal, and over 860 Leon Kingdom was in the line of:
    Braga, Tuy, Astorga, Le�n, Amaya, Briviesca, Miranda, Oporto, Simancas y Zamora
    Interesting summary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Davidtab View Post
    "Both Spaniards and Portuguese do not look similar in appearance to the French, with the exception of the South-Western French"... sorry... what?? hahaha... of course we look like similar... I have been a lot of times in France and the people is very similar in appearence, the only thing you can feel when you travel across Europe is a GRADUAL up or down in the eyes colour and skin capaticity of been tanned by the sun as long as you go travelling... and another thing... you must compare skin colour (for example) only between November and March, when in South Europe we are much less tanned by the sun. I have been living in Ireland a lot of years ago, the difference was only the percentage of light coloured eyes and their almost incapacity of being tanned by the sun. Perhaps the only appearence differences in Europe is you can find much more appearence variety between southerners than between northerners.
    Iberians look on average straight southern European, Irish people and French people do not. There are many foreigners in France, including many migrants of Iberian origin. French do not, on average, have that Mediterranean appearance that both Spaniards and Portuguese seem to be ashamed of in forums. Just look at the Spanish mayor of Paris, Anne Hidalgo, or at the French actor of Spanish ancestry Jean Reno. You can clearly see that they are not of French ancestry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alais View Post
    Iberians look on average straight southern European, Irish people and French people do not. There are many foreigners in France, including many migrants of Iberian origin. French do not, on average, have that Mediterranean appearance that both Spaniards and Portuguese seem to be ashamed of in forums. Just look at the Spanish mayor of Paris, Anne Hidalgo, or at the French actor of Spanish ancestry Jean Reno. You can clearly see that they are not of French ancestry.

    it is cool for some iberians that they cluster with this etruscan dude
    R474
    - Etruscan - Civitavecchia
    salento posted his gedmatch kit in another thread

    AF1464717

    K13 Oracle ref data revised 21 Nov 2013

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 North_Atlantic 36.79
    2 West_Med 25.23
    3 East_Med 16.98
    4 Baltic 12.19
    5 West_Asian 5.29
    6 Red_Sea 1.57


    Finished reading population data. 204 populations found.
    13 components mode.

    --------------------------------

    Least-squares method.

    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 Portuguese @ 5.355760
    2 Spanish_Extremadura @ 5.974457
    3 North_Italian @ 6.21926

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    it is cool for some iberians that they cluster with this etruscan dude
    R474
    - Etruscan - Civitavecchia
    salento posted his gedmatch kit in another thread
    Yes, R474 clusters in an area between Iberians and northern Italians.

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    Of course we look like southern europeans because we are southern europeans. This is a fact, but you can not distinguish a pure french from Lyon of a pure iberian from Santander, for example, and this is a fact as well. In a good amount of cases you will be able to distinguish a pure french from El Havre of a pure iberian from Valencia. And in a lot of cases, you will be able to distinguish a pure French from Metz of a pure Iberian from the Algarve. Its the question I was talking about... gradient, Europe is a continuous gradient from West to East and from North to South in the appearence of people, and thats the reason you can not say "French dont look like Iberians", I am European, I travel across Europe, I lived in different places in Europe and simply: this is not true.

    About "shame"... I have no idea what are you talking about. I am only talking about facts. Why could I be "ashamed" for? I dont undersand you, please tell me.

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