Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst ... 2345 LastLast
Results 76 to 100 of 115

Thread: Origin of the Basques

  1. #76
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    23-01-21
    Posts
    120

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-Df27
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T2b3e

    Country: Spain



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by alais View Post
    Iberians look on average straight southern European, Irish people and French people do not. There are many foreigners in France, including many migrants of Iberian origin. French do not, on average, have that Mediterranean appearance that both Spaniards and Portuguese seem to be ashamed of in forums. Just look at the Spanish mayor of Paris, Anne Hidalgo, or at the French actor of Spanish ancestry Jean Reno. You can clearly see that they are not of French ancestry.
    Do you have something to say about the origin of the Basques and the other Iberians or are you going to limit yourself to saying stupid things? I wouldn't want this thread to turn into some kind of discussion like the Apricity. Usually people who talk about these things are due to ignorance or because they have traveled little.

  2. #77
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    23-01-21
    Posts
    120

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-Df27
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T2b3e

    Country: Spain



    Quote Originally Posted by Davidtab View Post
    Of course we look like southern europeans because we are southern europeans. This is a fact, but you can not distinguish a pure french from Lyon of a pure iberian from Santander, for example, and this is a fact as well. In a good amount of cases you will be able to distinguish a pure french from El Havre of a pure iberian from Valencia. And in a lot of cases, you will be able to distinguish a pure French from Metz of a pure Iberian from the Algarve. It�s the question I was talking about... gradient, Europe is a continuous gradient from West to East and from North to South in the appearence of people, and that�s the reason you can not say "French don�t look like Iberians", I am European, I travel across Europe, I lived in different places in Europe and simply: this is not true.

    About "shame"... I have no idea what are you talking about. I am only talking about facts. Why could I be "ashamed" for? I don�t undersand you, please tell me.
    Please don't get into that kind of discussion, it's not worth wasting a second of our time.

  3. #78
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    23-01-21
    Posts
    120

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-Df27
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T2b3e

    Country: Spain



    3 members found this post helpful.
    @ Moesan

    I'm going to give you an example of genetic continuity in Iberia. In this case it refers to the Castilian plateau. We have many samples from Chalcolithic and Bronze Age, all of them P312/Df27. The BB culture (2.800-1.800 BC) gave rise to the culture of Las Cogotas (1.800-900 BC), this culture originated Soto de Medinilla Culture which in turn is the culture that gave rise to vacceos, vettones and astures (Iron Age).

    *EHU002 (2.434 AC)-El Hundido, Burgos-Cultura Campaniforme-HapY-R1b-P312-Df27-Hap Mit-K1a4/a1
    *EHU001 (2.165 AC)-El Hundido, Burgos-Cultura Campaniforme-HapY-R1b-L51-Hap Mit-U5a1/b1
    *I5665 (2.133 AC)-Pago del Virgazal, Burgos-Cultura Campaniforme-HapY-R1b-P312-Hap Mit-K1a24/a
    *VAD001 (1.741 AC)-Valdescusa, La Rioja-Cultura Campaniforme-HapY-R1b-Df27-Z225-Hap Mit-U5b1
    *I6470 (1.651 AC)-Pago del Virgazal, Burgos-Bronce Antiguo-HapY-R1b-DF27-ZZ12-Hap Mit-J1c1
    *VAD005 (1.644 AC)-Valdescusa, La Rioja-Bronce Antiguo Meseta-HapY-R1b-L52-Hap Mit-J2b1/a2
    *VAD002 (1.608 AC)-Valdescusa, La Rioja-Bronce Antiguo-HapY-R1b1a/1a-CTS5082-Hap Mit-J2b1/a2
    *I1840 (1.557 AC)-El Sotillo, Álava-Bronce Antiguo-HapY-R1b-L52-Haplogrupo Mitocondrial-H3ap
    *I2472 (1.515 AC)-El Sotillo (Álava) Bronce Antiguo-HapY-R1b-P311-Haplogrupo [email protected]
    *Esp005 (1.500 AC)-Cueva de los Lagos, La Rioja-Cultura de las Cogotas I-HapY-R1b-DF27-Hap Mit-K1a
    *I3492 (1.500 AC)-Los Tordillos, Salamanca-Cogotas I-HapY-R1b-M269-Hap [email protected]@16912
    *VAD004 (1.464 AC)-Valdescusa, La Rioja-Cultura de las Cogotas I-HapY-R1b-L151-Hap Mit-J1c3
    *I2470 (1.321 AC)-El Sotillo, Álava-Cultura de las Cogotas I- HapY-R1b-P312-Hap Mit-J2a1/a1
    *I12209 (1.289 AC)-La Requejada, Valladolid-Cultura de las Cogotas-I-HapY-R1b-DF27-Hap Mit-H1ah

    Unlike the Iberians of Andalusia, Castilla-La Mancha, the Mediterranean coast, the Ebro valley, the Pyrenees and the south of France, these peoples seem to speak Indo-European languages. We have to analyze their genomes because Olalde did not take a single sample in his paper on Iberia. If they turn out to be Df27 and it is shown that they spoke an IE language, then the linguistic panorama in Iberia will be even more complicated, because we are seeing the same genetic continuity as in the eastern half of the peninsula. and yet they would speak different languages.

    Something similar would happen in France. Iff the genomes of the Aquitaine peoples or the people of the Iron Age in Occitania were analyzed and they all also happen to be P312, then why did they speak Iberian and Basque?

    In Italy, we would have a similar problem, because if the Etruscans happen to be also descendants of the BBs from northern Italy (P312), then because why they spoke Etruscan which is a non-Indo-European language?. We also have Latin genomes and some of them are U152 and Z2103, ergo the same would happen in Italy as in Spain, that is, genetically very similar peoples speaking different languages.

  4. #79
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    19,233


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Honestly, I don't get the big deal here. If the question is whether the downstream R1b lineages came from the east starting around 3000 BC, the answer is clear; yes, they did. Whether R1b lineages related to far distant V88 were present in western Europe earlier is irrelevant.

    It's also irrelevant to that question whether some admixed groups of locals mixed with steppe arrivals continued to speak the local language. Things were in flux for hundreds of years no doubt.

    All that is needed is to look at the autosomal signature. To imply that internationally renowned labs are hiding evidence of the fact that some down stream RIB samples don't have steppe ancestry is ludicrous. Does anyone seriously think they'd jeopardize their reputation and careers over such stupidity?

    So far as I know, all papers produced by the Reich Lab or with which they are associated release the raw data. Download it and analyze the admixture or stop libeling them. Write to Olalde himself and ask for the analysis or where to get access to the raw data. They're usually very accommodating.

    I've let this run on, but my patience comes to an end when discussions go to these looney lengths and libel is being implied.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  5. #80
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    23-01-21
    Posts
    120

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-Df27
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T2b3e

    Country: Spain



    1 members found this post helpful.
    @Angela said-“Honestly, I don't get the big deal here. If the question is whether the downstream R1b lineages came from the east starting around 3000 BC, the answer is clear; yes, they did. Whether R1b lineages related to far distant V88 were present in western Europe earlier is irrelevant”

    Of course the question is relevant, in fact it is so relevant that the promoters of the Kurgan theory as it has been lately elaborated (i.e. that R1a-M417 and R1b-L51 brought the IE language to mainland europe thanks to massive migrations with origin in the Yamnaya culture), have been trying for 6 years to find those lineages in the steppes and to date have been unable to do so. Reich, Patterson, Haak, Mathieson, Lazaridis, Olalde and their colleagues still do not know where to look for M269/L51 and its descendants. They have found them neither in Khvakynsk, nor in Samara, Dnieper-Donets, Sredni-Stog, Repin, Eneolithic Caucasus, Repin, Afanasievo and Yamnaya. But they have not found it in Poltavka, Potapovka, Catacombs, Sinthasta etc. either. That is to say, at the moment this lineage has NOT been found in any culture of the steppes between 7,000 BC and 2,000 BC. Absolutely nothing and yet they claim that M269/L51/P312 is exclusively responsible for the introduction of steppe ancestry into Western Europe. Really?. All we say is that for a theory or hypothesis to be accepted unanimously by the international scientific community it must be irrefutably proven. Give us a single case of L51 in the steppes and we will accept without problems that they were right, but without proof, the only thing they do is to ask us to accept a dogma of faith and honestly, we no longer live in the 16th century.

    Nobody here has talked about R1b-V88, but about R1b-M269. We have ATP3 in Iberia (El Portalón, Atapuerca) which, according to Harvard, is R1b-P297 positive for PF6518-downstream M269. This sample has only been recognized by Harvard in 2021, after having published its work on BB culture in Europe and the genetic history of Iberia. Why? simply because it did not fit in their theory of the arrival of this lineage from the steppes with the BB culture. The existence of M269 in Iberia before 3300 BC simply had to be ignored, in the same way that the anthropological, genetic and archaeological evidence of the existence of small Iberian migrations to the rest of the BB regions at an advanced stage of that culture had to be ignored.

    SO yes it is a big deal, because we are talking about the origin of the male lineage carried by 100 million European men, who deserve a more scientific and less simplistic explanation of our history.

    The Harvardians' explanations about the origin of R1b-L51 are a bit surreal. You can choose the one you like best

    1-According to David Anthony, the reason is that R1b-Z2013 was the elite i.e. the dominant male clan who used the Kurgans as burial sites, while R1a-M417 and R1b-L51 were the lower class of Yamnaya society and were never buried in such burial monuments. A lot of imagination, isn't it? To begin with Yamnaya is overwhelmingly Z2013 and there are members of that lineage buried in poor sites and in rich sites, then if they have not found M417 and L51 it is not because they were poor, but because they are not in the Yamnaya culture.

    2-Other relevant Kurganists say that the reason for not finding these lineages is that we are talking about a single M417 and a single L51 that gave rise to all European males belonging to these lineages thanks to a founder effect, and therefore finding them is as difficult as finding a needle in a haystack. Ok, it may be very difficult, but without proof your theory is only a working hypothesis that can be easily disproved, so please keep looking.

    3-The third favorite argument is to try to convince everyone that these lineages are in an unsampled group belonging to the western Yamnaya culture. Ok, show us that you are a good scientist and find L51, we will all thank you, so far, this is just another working hypothesis.

  6. #81
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    23-01-21
    Posts
    120

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-Df27
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T2b3e

    Country: Spain



    @Angela said-It's also irrelevant to that question whether some admixed groups of locals mixed with steppe arrivals continued to speak the local language. Things were in flux for hundreds of years no doubt.

    Here the one who disagrees with you is Iñigo Olalde, who as you well know is one of the main defenders of the Kurgan theory.

    “Unlike in Central or Northern Europe, where Steppe ancestry likely marked the introduction of Indo-European languages (12), our results indicate that, in Iberia, increases in Steppe ancestry were not always accompanied by switches to Indo-European languages. This is consistent with the genetic profile of present-day Basques who speak the only non-Indo-European language in Western Europe but overlap genetically with Iron Age populations (Fig. 1D) showing substantial levels of Steppe ancestry”

    i.e. steppe ancestry is not linked at least in Iberia with a certain language (in this case IE), that is why it is so important to demonstrate the genetic continuity between the Chalcolithic and the Iron Age.

  7. #82
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    23-01-21
    Posts
    120

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-Df27
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T2b3e

    Country: Spain



    1 members found this post helpful.
    @Angela

    Who said that renowned laboratories are hiding evidence? What we are saying is that their interpretations of the available data are WRONG. Everyone knows that to model ancient samples and using the right populations, the results can be very different, i.e., everything can be much more Yamnaya than it really is if we use the right pops. We can model BBs all over Europe without a drop of Yamnaya or steppe blood, it is not that difficult. Autosomal composition is the only argument that the steppe fans can use today, when not even Lazaridis really knows what is CHG-Iran related ancestry found in Yamnaya and when everybody knows that this component reached Greece and Italy independently of steppe migrations.

  8. #83
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    23-01-21
    Posts
    120

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-Df27
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T2b3e

    Country: Spain



    2 members found this post helpful.
    @Angela said-I've let this run on, but my patience comes to an end when discussions go to these looney lengths and libel is being implied.


    If you don't agree with the Harvardians, you are committing a crime? That's just what the Holy Inquisition thought.

    Demanding proof is a crime?

    Do you know how the international scientific community works?

    Do you know how many times Reich, Patterson or Lazaridis have been asked where the hell L51 is?

    Do you know why the Pontic steppes are the most researched region of the world genetically speaking?

    There are many European linguists, archaeologists and geneticists who do not agree with the Harvard theories. But only time will show who is right, meanwhile when we talk about the origin of the Basques and the rest of the Iberians, we will have to think that we can perfectly explain our genetic makeup and our languages without having to resort to the steppes and to the fairy tales of Professor Reich

  9. #84
    Regular Member real expert's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-09-16
    Posts
    208


    Country: Germany



    3 members found this post helpful.
    @Angela,
    I don’t agree with everything Gaska says, but I’m open to his arguments, and there should be room for very controversial discussions too. In my opinion, it's better to debunk and educate people with crazy and fringe theories with arguments than resorting to banning, unless of course people just want to troll for the sake of trolling. That said, I also understand your point that somewhere the Mods have to draw a line, too. Nevertheless, the debate here didn't turn nasty so far.

  10. #85
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    19,233


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    @Angela,
    I don’t agree with everything Gaska says, but I’m open to his arguments, and there should be room for very controversial discussions too. In my opinion, it's better to debunk and educate people with crazy and fringe theories with arguments than resorting to banning, unless of course people just want to troll for the sake of trolling. That said, I also understand your point that somewhere the Mods have to draw a line, too. Nevertheless, the debate here didn't turn nasty so far.
    Did I say I was banning him? I've let him ramble on for pages on multiple threads. The holes in his arguments have been shown again and again. If he wants to put his arguments on an endless loop, as he seems to be doing, and people aren't bored with having to answer the same points again and again, fine with me. This isn't anthrogenica.

    What I said is that I'm not going to get this site embroiled in defaming world famous researchers. That's a step too far. I'm sure you agree.

  11. #86
    Elite member
    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    72
    Posts
    4,859

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    1 members found this post helpful.
    @Angela
    Sometimes I find Gaska a bit obstinate (a quality, too) and sometimes taking lacks of traces as proofs of non-existance (we know it isn't not more a proof of existance!) excluding the possibility to imagine theories opposed to his ones, but the tone between the diverse posters keep on correct, I think. I suppose you 're afraid that threads degenerate as in other cases and you try to limit the risks, but here, by arguing one against another I grasp some data I had not, and it's useful. Just my way to see things.

  12. #87
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    19,233


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    @Angela
    Sometimes I find Gaska a bit obstinate (a quality, too) and sometimes taking lacks of traces as proofs of non-existance (we know it isn't not more a proof of existance!) excluding the possibility to imagine theories opposed to his ones, but the tone between the diverse posters keep on correct, I think. I suppose you 're afraid that threads degenerate as in other cases and you try to limit the risks, but here, by arguing one against another I grasp some data I had not, and it's useful. Just my way to see things.
    It's fine, Moesan. You have the patience of Job; I know that. :)

    I just don't want any accusations against renowned scientists that for some unimaginable reason they're hiding the autosomal make up of ancient Spanish samples. I'm not having the site involved in libel.

    Other than that and insults hurled, which hasn't happened, I have no problem with any of it. People have believed more nonsensical things, after all.

  13. #88
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    23-01-21
    Posts
    120

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-Df27
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T2b3e

    Country: Spain



    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    @Angela,
    I don’t agree with everything Gaska says, but I’m open to his arguments, and there should be room for very controversial discussions too. In my opinion, it's better to debunk and educate people with crazy and fringe theories with arguments than resorting to banning, unless of course people just want to troll for the sake of trolling. That said, I also understand your point that somewhere the Mods have to draw a line, too. Nevertheless, the debate here didn't turn nasty so far.
    The problem is that the Kurganists do not have convincing arguments, that is, they are not able to find R1b-L51/L151/P312 in any culture of the steppes. Scholars have been searching for ten years and steppe fans limit themselves to banning dissidents because they don't know what to answer. To say that there are no L51 in the steppes is not a crazy or fringe theory, in fact the oldest L51 in mainland europe are three Swiss Neolithic farmers MX304, MX310 and Aesch 25 (Furtwängler, 2.020), buried in Neolithic dolmens.Two of them (Auvernier and Burgaschisee) with hardly any steppe ancestry that have been conveniently ignored because in fact they may be the last nail in the coffin of the Kurgan theory. And don’t worry, the debate will never be nasty because most of us are educated people-

  14. #89
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    23-01-21
    Posts
    120

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-Df27
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T2b3e

    Country: Spain



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    @Angela
    Sometimes I find Gaska a bit obstinate (a quality, too) and sometimes taking lacks of traces as proofs of non-existance (we know it isn't not more a proof of existance!) excluding the possibility to imagine theories opposed to his ones, but the tone between the diverse posters keep on correct, I think. I suppose you 're afraid that threads degenerate as in other cases and you try to limit the risks, but here, by arguing one against another I grasp some data I had not, and it's useful. Just my way to see things.
    Well, Spaniards in general and Gaska in particular, have never liked to be told by others what to do or what to think, we are intelligent enough to draw our own conclusions without having to admit explanations or theories that do not seem right to us. That is to say, Harvard may be a prestigious lab in America, but their lack of knowledge of the Chalcolithic and Bronze Age in Iberia is astounding. There are some doctoral theses and genetic papers published in Spanish, that they don’t know, that have very valuable data on the Paleolithic and Mesolithic and samples that if they were analyzed by foreign laboratories would radically change their opinion about some of the conclusions that now seem definitive. In any case, I see that you are a polite person and if you are interested in Iberia information, do not hesitate to ask for it. We don't have to agree in order to have a civilized discussion.

  15. #90
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    23-01-21
    Posts
    120

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-Df27
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T2b3e

    Country: Spain



    3 members found this post helpful.
    @angela said-"People have believed more nonsensical things, after all"

    Yeah, for example W.Haak when he said (2.015) "Massive migration from the steppe is a source for Indo-European languages in Europe". Conclusion reached by analyzing 69 (yes 69) genomes in Eurasia, and without knowing that Villabruna, Iboussieres, etc. etc. etc. existed. You and the majority of the public opinion may have been convinced by his arguments, but I was not because I consider it a risky and unscientific hasty conclusion

    And regarding the criticism of laboratories or published genetic papers, I believe that this is precisely the way to advance science. Have you never criticized the conclusions reached by certain geneticists? It is true that their papers are always useful in the sense that they give us information on many ancient genomes, and it is true that most of them are available to other professionals and amateurs. Thanks to that, some non-biased guys do good works analyzing Bam files (even in anthrogenica or eurogenes) that give us very interesting information.

    And don't worry, the debate will always be polite, because I guess you won't allow ad hominem attacks as they occur in other forums. Bans have to be limited to professional trolls, the rest of the people just want to learn, give their opinion and have fun.

  16. #91
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    19,233


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    @Gaska,

    I criticize the analysis in scientific papers all the time. I NEVER, however, imply that for some unknown agenda they are hiding the autosomal analysis of some ancient samples because it would call their conclusions into question.

    That is libelous and won't be permitted here. Am I clear enough this time?

  17. #92
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    29-04-18
    Posts
    74


    Country: Norway



    It seems to me we are starting to see the possibility that the Basque language may be an isolate descended from something very old indeed. We've seen some hints that when the WHG culture on the Atlantic coast encountered the encroaching EEF, there was an elite replacement where the WHG took over the EEF groups they were in contact with. The middle Neolithic resurgence of WHG ancestry seems to have been male-dominated. This overlaps neatly with the spread of the Megalith-building cultures across western Europe and parts of the Mediterranean.

    It seems a reasonable guess that the Basque language is descended from this cultural group, if it preceded the Indo-European expansion from the east. So it may be a remnant of the EEF language group, or if the early Megalith builders adopted the elite language, it may be the last descendant of the WHG languages.

    In my personal opinion, aspects of Theo Vennemanns Vasconic Substrate Theory actually seems to be a good fit for the areas this cultural group expanded into. The other aspects of the theory still looks like nonsense though.

  18. #93
    Elite member
    Join Date
    10-12-15
    Posts
    643


    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by Gnarl View Post
    It seems to me we are starting to see the possibility that the
    Quote Originally Posted by Gnarl View Post
    Basque language may be an isolate descended from something very old indeed. We've seen some hints that when the WHG culture on the Atlantic coast encountered the encroaching EEF, there was an elite replacement where the WHG took over the EEF groups they were in contact with. The middle Neolithic resurgence of WHG ancestry seems to have been male-dominated. This overlaps neatly with the spread of the Megalith-building cultures across western Europe and parts of the Mediterranean.

    It seems a reasonable guess that the Basque language is descended from this cultural group, if it preceded the Indo-European expansion from the east. So it may be a remnant of the EEF language group, or if the early Megalith builders adopted the elite language, it may be the last descendant of the WHG languages.

    In my personal opinion, aspects of Theo Vennemanns Vasconic Substrate Theory actually seems to be a good fit for the areas this cultural group expanded into. The other aspects of the theory still looks like nonsense though.


    I don’t know, but the Basque language WOULD originate from East:

    “Prehistorically, the Sumerians were not aboriginal to Mesopotamia. Their native hearth is unknown. Speaking an agglutinative tongue showing affinities, on one hand, with the Uralo-Altaic languages (Balto-Finnish, Hungarian, Volgaic, Uralien, Samoyuedic, Turkish, Mongolian, and Eskimo) and, on the other hand, with the Dravidian tounges of India, the Pelasgian of pre-Homeric Greece, Georgian of the Caucasus, and Basque of the Pyrenes, they had arrived apparently c.3500 B.C. to find the river lands already accupied by an advanced Neolithic, farming and cattle-raising population known to science as the Ubaidian (also, Proto-Euphratean), [...].”

    150 years ago, american professor Alexander WincheijL said that Indo European appeared as early as 2,000bc. And Basque language has some similarities to american Indian. “Their language, says Whitney, possesses some affinities with those of the American family”

    So I think that is all related with WSHG who migrated in IVC, and maybe Sumer.

  19. #94
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    28-07-13
    Posts
    6


    Country: UK - England



    1 members found this post helpful.
    How can any language be "older" than another. Haven't all languages evolved from the same homo sapien source?

  20. #95
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    19-03-18
    Location
    Wellington
    Age
    66
    Posts
    100

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-L21 DF5
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c3b2

    Ethnic group
    Maori Irish French Scottish English
    Country: New Zealand



    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by youngkeithden View Post
    How can any language be "older" than another. Haven't all languages evolved from the same homo sapien source?
    True, in the sense that all extant languages have been evolving for the same length of time. In the same way, no living species can be called older than another because all have been evolving for the same length of time from the first living organisms. However, the rate of evolutionary change can be different for different species. Some species are labelled as "living fossils" because the fossil record suggests that they have changed very little in hundreds of millions of years (morphologically at least).

    Languages can also evolve at different rates. The trouble with languages is that there is no fossil record for languages prior to literacy. Some might speculate, for example, that the "click" languages of eastern and southern Africa are the equivalent of "living fossils" because they might have changed less than most other languages over the millennia, but it is mere speculation because there is no hard evidence that can be produced to support such a claim. The same goes for any claim that Basque is an "old" language.

  21. #96
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    11-08-18
    Location
    Lugo - Galicia
    Posts
    53

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2b2-L283 CTS3617
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1

    Ethnic group
    Galician
    Country: Spain - Galicia



    About Iberic language, it seems its related to Basque in some kind of remote level. Spanish linguists can not asevere it, but I believe day by day doubts are less important.

    Very good speech Prof. Velaza in National Archeological Museum: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAtv97ufFBE&t=25s

    Numerals Iberic Basque
    1/2 Erdi Erdi
    2 Bi(n) Bi
    4 Lau(r) Lau(r)
    5 Bors(te) Bortz
    6 ^Sei Sei
    7 Sisbi Zazpi
    8 Sorse Zortzi
    10 (a)bar^ (h)amar
    20 oikei (h)ogei

    Another important thing is said in the conference... Writter Iberic seems to be too uniform in all the territory it was spoken, so Prof. Velaza said its probable it was a language adopted by different people not very far in time since there are written signs of it. He even speculates with the Urnfield Culture as a possible origin of Iberic language because its the unique recorded coming from outside Iberia at the calculated time the Iberic began to spread.

  22. #97
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    23-01-21
    Posts
    120

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-Df27
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T2b3e

    Country: Spain



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tamakore View Post
    True, in the sense that all extant languages have been evolving for the same length of time. In the same way, no living species can be called older than another because all have been evolving for the same length of time from the first living organisms. However, the rate of evolutionary change can be different for different species. Some species are labelled as "living fossils" because the fossil record suggests that they have changed very little in hundreds of millions of years (morphologically at least).

    Languages can also evolve at different rates. The trouble with languages is that there is no fossil record for languages prior to literacy. Some might speculate, for example, that the "click" languages of eastern and southern Africa are the equivalent of "living fossils" because they might have changed less than most other languages over the millennia, but it is mere speculation because there is no hard evidence that can be produced to support such a claim. The same goes for any claim that Basque is an "old" language.
    This is a good post, I agree with you, no language has to be older than any other. Regarding Iberia, just some have been preserved (Basque) and others have disappeared (Tartessian, Iberian). Proto-Basque is only known from inscriptions in Aquitaine that are dated to the Iron Age, so according to this reasoning we would be talking about a language that is not too old.

    However, it is clear that these three Iberian languages (Iberian-Basque, Tartessian) must be related to each other, so that Basque can in a way be considered as the only survivor of a large linguistic family. In fact, when Strabo writes about the Tartessians he says- they are the most cultured of the Iberians and have writings about 6000 years old". Basque-Iberianism is the theory increasingly accepted by many Spanish linguists, the example of the numerals is very clear, but perhaps you can get more information from this doctoral thesis.

    Nekia Utortu Tirkoba-El Ibérico:Lengua Uskeika-Substrato del español y patrimonio del Euskera-Luis Ignacio Azcona

    1-Iberian is a Paleo-Franco-Hispanic-Portuguese language that was written from the Late Bronze Age onwards.

    2-This very ancient language has many phonetic, phonological, morphological, syntactic and lexical affinities with the Basque language, which is why we believe it has a clear relationship of kinship.

    3-The first Iberian writings in the South and West of Iberia (Tras os Montes, Basins-Duero, Mondego, Tajo, Guadiana, Algarve, Odiel, Tinto, Guadalquivir) are from the last dolmen period at the end of the 2nd millennium BC.

    @DavidTab-Forget the issue of the urnfield culture, in Iberia it only reached the Ebro valley and is commonly accepted as an IE culture. Linguists are not experts in genetics and do not know the genetic continuity in Iberia from the Chalcolithic to the Iron Age. All the genomes we have from Iberia are R1b-P312/Df27, including the Tartessians (La Angorrilla). And that lineage did not enter Iberia with the Urnfield culture but in the Chalcolithic (BBC).

  23. #98
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    14-06-17
    Posts
    190


    Country: United Kingdom



    Quote Originally Posted by Gaska View Post
    The first Iberian writings in the South and West of Iberia (Tras os Montes, Basins-Duero, Mondego, Tajo, Guadiana, Algarve, Odiel, Tinto, Guadalquivir) are from the last dolmen period at the end of the 2nd millennium BC.
    Do you have any more information on that? The sources I've seen online say c. 7th century for the earliest writings in Iberia.

  24. #99
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    23-01-21
    Posts
    120

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-Df27
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T2b3e

    Country: Spain



    Quote Originally Posted by Philjames100 View Post
    Do you have any more information on that? The sources I've seen online say c. 7th century for the earliest writings in Iberia.
    The information is in this doctoral thesis. It refers to inscriptions in the south and west of Iberia and the author qualifies them as “Dolmenic”. These have been made "in situ" and not later to the use, and it is evident, since the three refer to use: "kenkue: only us", to the subjects: "nune: the children", and to the place: "lukote: fertile land" (Tras os Montes). The new writing develops at the end of the second millennium around the city of Tharshish, "the city of the center, next to the river Betis (ibai Thartshish > Baetis>Betis>Guadalquivir)" Híspalis (Sevilla), the Algarve, and Guadiana. The author also refers to the inscriptions of La Espança

    In imitation of the Minoan (Lin-A). the Tartessian are created (1.700-1.350 BC) for the sonic paradig based on the five vowels, drawing them graphically according to the position of the tongue, documented in the dolmens of Tras Os Montes, in a green statite bead with letters (Dolmen-Salamanca) and in Gádor (EL Argar culture)-5 vowels-A, E. I, O, U, occlusive syllabographs: BA, TE, TI, TU, KE, KO, KU-Liquid-N, L, R, S


    UTZI-KO NINE HILOUA BA-KIO-KUE- “We will leave the children in a grave if they stink”

    “SUES NIRBAKE LUKOTE
    “ZUEZ NIR BAKE LUKOTXA” " you are our peace in the fertile land".

  25. #100
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    23-01-21
    Posts
    120

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-Df27
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T2b3e

    Country: Spain



    *Ascoli Bronze-Found in Rome, in which the Consul Cneo Pompeyo Estrabón, granted the Roman citizenship to the Turma Salluitana by virtue of the "Lex Iulia de Civitate Latinis et Sociis Danda", as a reward for the conquest of Ascoli in the frame of the Social War (91-88 BC) against the Picentines. This Cavalry Squadron under the command of a Decurion, was formed by the following horsemen (30), most of them Iberians and Basques

    1-Salduie, Zaragoza- Sanibelser (son of Adingibas)-Ilurtibas (son of Bilustibas)-Estopeles (son of Ordennas)-Torsinno (son of Austinko)
    2-Bagarensis- Kakususin (son of Chadar)
    3-Licenses- Son of Sosimilus-Son of Irsecei-Son of Elgaun-Son of Nespaiser
    4-Ilerdenses (Ilerda/Lerida)- Q.Otacilius (son of Suisetarten)-Cnaeus Cornelius (son of Nesile), P. Fabius (son of Enasagin)
    5-Begensis - Turtumelis (son of Atanscer)-
    6-Segienses- (Segia/Ejea de los Caballeros, Zaragoza-Vascones)-Sosinaden and Sosimilo (sons of Sosinase)-Urgidar (son of Luspanar)-Gurtano (son of Biurno)-Elando (son of Enneges)-Agirnes (son of Benabels)-Nalbeaden (son of Agerno)-Arranes (son of Arbiscar)-Umargibas (son of Luspangibas)-
    7-Ennegenses (Ennege?-Vascones)-Beles (son of Umarbeles)-Turinus (son of Adimels)-Ordumeles (son of Burdo)
    8-Libenses-Bastugites (son of Adimbeles)-Umarillun (son of Tarbantu)-
    9-Suconenses-Belennes (son of Albennes)-Atullo (son of Tautindals)-
    10-Illuersensis-Balciadin (son of Balcibilos)

    The names of the Iberian and Basque horsemen are very similar, although some Iberians from Ilerda are already Romanized (the names of their fathers, however, are indigenous).

    Basques-Beles, Umarbeles, Ordumeles, Adimels, Benabels,
    Iberians-Adimbeles, Belennes, Albennes

    Beltz-Negro-Black

Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst ... 2345 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •